My New 550 is a lemon

[cbras9]

I am waiting to see what BMW is going to do.

[xatlas0]

The average BMW/Car tech these days has been demoted to parts replacer. Very few can accurately diagnose any of the myriad electrical faults that can occur with these cars without electronic assistance due to the preponderance of secondary effects and cascade failures an electrical problem causes.

I would say, if you get it back, to never expect it to function correctly again. If they were able to correctly diagnose the problem, then it should work fine, but given how hard that is, I wouldn't hold out much hope.

[camshaftgsxr]

Anyways... Since mr hatin on the techs above me is so against BMW?

Do you have any idea what kind of bilateral test and control techs with factory scan tools have? Saying they need electonic help is like saying NASA needed electronic help putting a man on the moon, in fact your car is probably ten times more complicated. The only problem with dealers service departments are the incompetent service writers and owners that put cost over service. Don't go bashing automotive technicians when you know nothing about it. /rant

[xatlas0]

Anyways... Since mr hatin on the techs above me is so against BMW?

Do you have any idea what kind of bilateral test and control techs with factory scan tools have? Saying they need electonic help is like saying NASA needed electronic help putting a man on the moon, in fact your car is probably ten times more complicated. The only problem with dealers service departments are the incompetent service writers and owners that put cost over service. Don't go bashing automotive technicians when you know nothing about it. /rant

Oh really?

The same techs that couldn't tell a fuse had blown, and were about to charge another customer 2k to change a part that worked fine?
The same techs that are stumped constantly and have to go to the local indy to actually diagnose anything without the computer?
The same techs who, rather than think about what they were doing, overfilled a customer's car with oil twice to the point that it blew the rear main seal?

I have yet to meet a dealer BMW tech that can accurately diagnose something as basic as a sensor fault in a modern BMW. Rather than actually diagnose the problem, they usually just go with whatever the diagnostic computer says is wrong, even if it makes no sense, then replace the whole system. So if an electrical problem is present, invalidating the internal diagnostics, they have to call in a specialist. I have seen this sort of arrangement at more than 10 BMW dealerships around the US. I have zero faith in the dealership techs being able to fix a complex problem based on the last 10 years of dealing with them. Perhaps I have just had bad luck, but every dealer service experience I have had has been poor.

[meangreen94z]

Oh really?

The same techs that couldn't tell a fuse had blown, and were about to charge another customer 2k to change a part that worked fine?
The same techs that are stumped constantly and have to go to the local indy to actually diagnose anything without the computer?
The same techs who, rather than think about what they were doing, overfilled a customer's car with oil twice to the point that it blew the rear main seal?

I have yet to meet a dealer BMW tech that can accurately diagnose something as basic as a sensor fault in a modern BMW. Rather than actually diagnose the problem, they usually just go with whatever the diagnostic computer says is wrong, even if it makes no sense, then replace the whole system. So if an electrical problem is present, invalidating the internal diagnostics, they have to call in a specialist. I have seen this sort of arrangement at more than 10 BMW dealerships around the US. I have zero faith in the dealership techs being able to fix a complex problem based on the last 10 years of dealing with them. Perhaps I have just had bad luck, but every dealer service experience I have had has been poor.
And your the typical car owner... Thinks he knows it all, but in fact knows absolutely nothing.:) Run into them all the time....Questioning how you have this experience when neither of your cars listed are modern:)

[xatlas0]

And your the typical car owner... Thinks he knows it all, but in fact knows absolutely nothing.:) Run into them all the time....Questioning how you have this experience when neither of your cars listed are modern:)

Some of the experiences listed happened when the E34 was new. Some others happened when the E39 540i/6 I used to have was new. Yet others have happened with the E90 335 I used to have was new. So, my experiences cover a wide temporal and vehicular range, to say nothing of the experiences of my friends with similar BMW issues.

I am also curious how you came to the erroneous conclusion that I know "nothing", when you know nothing of what I have done or what I do.

[meangreen94z]

Some of the experiences listed happened when the E34 was new. Some others happened when the E39 540i/6 I used to have was new. Yet others have happened with the E90 335 I used to have was new. So, my experiences cover a wide temporal and vehicular range, to say nothing of the experiences of my friends with similar BMW issues.

I am also curious how you came to the erroneous conclusion that I know "nothing", when you know nothing of what I have done or what I do.
Well I apologize, as I dont know what your experience has been like. And I agree there are alot of incompetent techs out there, but I disagree that thats all there is. I get enough diagnostic work on older cars out of independent euro shops to know that they wouldnt have a clue on more modern BMW's.

[xatlas0]

Well I apologize, as I dont know what your experience has been like. And I agree there are alot of incompetent techs out there, but I disagree that thats all there is. I get enough diagnostic work on older cars out of independent euro shops to know that they wouldnt have a clue on more modern BMW's.

I usually see the reverse, namely the dealer can't get it so they send it to the indy. Of course, I have also only used excellent indys with national reps, so that may have something to do with it.

As far as the "modern" BMWs go, I have seen more techs stumped with them than the earlier cars, usually due to their "black box" system breakdown. An example to illustrate my point:
1. System A fails because of a problem with System B.
2. The car goes in, gets system A replaced, because that's what diagnostics reported.
3. System A fails again, customer is not happy. Replacement considered a bad part. System A is replaced again.
4. System A fails a third time. The problem is escalated, and a specialist is called in.
5. Specialist finds fault in System B, but does not determine why System B failed.
6. Repeat System A/B failure cycle.

Since all the systems are now integrated with one another, a failure in one is no longer an isolated incident, it can and likely will cause secondary effects in the car. This makes diagnostics difficult at best, for a computer or a person. In my original reply to the OP, I did not disparage the techs, but I also did not want to paint a rosy picture either.

Frankly, this state of affairs is not the tech's fault, but the accountant's and designer's. By combining all the systems and introducing the cascading secondary effects, they made any repairs much more difficult.

[kocsis]

Forgive me guys, what's an "indy?" Independent mechanic? By the way, I met very good BMW mechanics, but the dealership owners drive them very hard to get cars in and out. Like internists under our health system, they rather spend the customer's (or insurance company's money) on needless tests and parts than spend their own time to troubleshoot or diagnose - because the dealership owner wants to increase the volume of cars being serviced.

[meangreen94z]

I usually see the reverse, namely the dealer can't get it so they send it to the indy. Of course, I have also only used excellent indys with national reps, so that may have something to do with it.

As far as the "modern" BMWs go, I have seen more techs stumped with them than the earlier cars, usually due to their "black box" system breakdown. An example to illustrate my point:
1. System A fails because of a problem with System B.
2. The car goes in, gets system A replaced, because that's what diagnostics reported.
3. System A fails again, customer is not happy. Replacement considered a bad part. System A is replaced again.
4. System A fails a third time. The problem is escalated, and a specialist is called in.
5. Specialist finds fault in System B, but does not determine why System B failed.
6. Repeat System A/B failure cycle.

Since all the systems are now integrated with one another, a failure in one is no longer an isolated incident, it can and likely will cause secondary effects in the car. This makes diagnostics difficult at best, for a computer or a person. In my original reply to the OP, I did not disparage the techs, but I also did not want to paint a rosy picture either.

Frankly, this state of affairs is not the tech's fault, but the accountant's and designer's. By combining all the systems and introducing the cascading secondary effects, they made any repairs much more difficult.
Not sure what country your located in, but I've never seen a dealer resort to an independent shop for diagnosis, atleast on anything modern(in my personal experience never). We have engineering assistance provided online(PUMA) and onsite if needed(RTE) by BMW. Their assistance is generally only needed on an intermittent issue, or for authorization to replace certain parts that are on a restricted list.
The biggest diagnostic tool there is for a modern BMW is experience, which you wont find very often at an independent shop. Inexperience is what leads to misdiagnosis in most situations, at the dealer or at an independent shop.

[hpbongers]

In my experience, all i've seen from dealers is the common "If they can afford to buy one - Screw them for everything they can get"

When you can buy an oem part off the internet delivered to you door for 1/3 the price, you know the dealers are screwing you.

[LuvMyE92]

Since this thread went horribly OT and the OP edited his post, I don't have a clue and I wonder, really, what was the point?

[mose121]

I usually see the reverse, namely the dealer can't get it so they send it to the indy.




Dealers do not send cars to independants to be fixed. The only way that would happen today is if you have a very old BMW that no one at the dealer has experience with and they may ask questions to a local independent who has worked on them for the past 40 years or something. We have an independant like that who buys all his parts from us and sometimes inquires about issues that he is having. It's a two way street. But as far as newer cars go, you will never see a dealer send them somewhere else to be fixed.

[Skully]

[QUOTE=xatlas0;20528322]The average BMW/Car tech these days has been demoted to parts replacer. Very few can accurately diagnose any of the myriad electrical faults that can occur with these cars without electronic assistance due to the preponderance of secondary effects and cascade failures an electrical problem causes.

[QUOTE]

Demoted to parts replacer? This is a rather ignorant response from someone who is frustrated and uninformed. In most cases it doesn't matter what the tech thinks the actual problem is on a particular car. They send the info up to BMW who decides what to fix or replace.

[FlatOut9]

Oh really?

The same techs that couldn't tell a fuse had blown, and were about to charge another customer 2k to change a part that worked fine?
The same techs that are stumped constantly and have to go to the local indy to actually diagnose anything without the computer?
The same techs who, rather than think about what they were doing, overfilled a customer's car with oil twice to the point that it blew the rear main seal?

I have yet to meet a dealer BMW tech that can accurately diagnose something as basic as a sensor fault in a modern BMW. Rather than actually diagnose the problem, they usually just go with whatever the diagnostic computer says is wrong, even if it makes no sense, then replace the whole system. So if an electrical problem is present, invalidating the internal diagnostics, they have to call in a specialist. I have seen this sort of arrangement at more than 10 BMW dealerships around the US. I have zero faith in the dealership techs being able to fix a complex problem based on the last 10 years of dealing with them. Perhaps I have just had bad luck, but every dealer service experience I have had has been poor.

Do you own a set of craftsman wrenches? :lol

[ptarditi]

I seriously doubt there are many Indies with BN2020 capability. By the way my expeience goes all the way back to 6volt Bimmers and i can set up a tii injection system as well as rebuild zenith/solex carbs. By the way I work at a dealer (obviously) and the last thing we do is throw parts unless you want your work charged back to you.

P.S. I started out with a set of craftsman and they are great for grinding and bending into special tools!