spark plugs checked, holy cow, pic's

[das Boot]

ok so its been getting nice and cold at night and ive been doing some racing, my the car was not tuned for such cold intake temps it had a fairly agressive tune on it of 12.4 wot 91 pump, but with the colder nights and 4 gear pulls the afr is now in the high 12's:eek: the car absolutly loves but it makes me uneasy so after some runs last night i noticed the car ran a little different, compression and leekdown were dona ater i pulled the plugs and all is fine it seems like im in real bad need of a more solid tune
1st pic cylinders 1-6, can anyone tell me why plug number 3 looks so different looks like its covered in ash ?? plug 1 the electrode was almost welded to the core and plug 6 was almost all melted off, no coolant puch or headlift r5671a-7 plugs part num 4091

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/helmvr4/IMG_1224.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/helmvr4/IMG_1228.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/helmvr4/IMG_1227.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/helmvr4/IMG_1226.jpg

[djborya]

Not good. do a compression test to check for internal damage.

[GT35Rm3]

What were the results of the leakdown and compession tests?

[das Boot]

Not good. do a compression test to check for internal damage.

compression test was done and is solid in all 6 cylinders


What were the results of the leakdown and compession tests?

120 psi in all 6

[5mall5nail5]

Considering the spark plug threads are discolored halfway up the thread I'd say you have too much advance and or too much heat in the cylinder... without even considering the broken melted plugs.

[das Boot]

Considering the spark plug threads are discolored halfway up the thread I'd say you have too much advance and or too much heat in the cylinder... without even considering the broken melted plugs.

yes, i knew it had too much timing the last tuner that touched it threw like 18+ degrees or more at it, what do u thik is up with plug 3?

[5mall5nail5]

Looks like a slightly rich idle on #3

[das Boot]

Looks like a slightly rich idle on #3

i was thinking the same gonna put some new plugs in it tomorrow and drive it around with no boost:( for a while then pull num 3 and check it out,
then a good tune on e85 :D

[jfdmas]

If you continue to keep racing your motor on those AFR's you will destroy your motor. Ive always tuned my cars to 11.5 afr or richer whether its 10psi or 30+psi. No reason to run 12's afr to gane a few extra hp. you want extra hp turn up the boost. With all that said, when detonation accurs it rattles the rings and lets oil and other stuff by leaving the residue on the porcelin of the plugs. The porcelins also have tons of pepper on them which is your piston AKA detonation. The fact that you melted your electrode says that your plugs are too hot, however i think thats not the case since your afrs were so lean. You said 18deg of total timing but at what psi and what RPM? 91 oct and this tune= crazy. lol

[Def]

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/helmvr4/IMG_1228.jpg

See those little silver blobs on the end of the threads? That was once a piece of your piston. Like others have said, your motor is running way too hot.

I run about 11.5:1 AFR at WOT - it cost a little bit of power from running in the low 12's, but offers a much larger safety margin on pump gas.

Whoever tuned your car didn't know what they were doing.

[das Boot]

If you continue to keep racing your motor on those AFR's you will destroy your motor. Ive always tuned my cars to 11.5 afr or richer whether its 10psi or 30+psi. No reason to run 12's afr to gane a few extra hp. you want extra hp turn up the boost. With all that said, when detonation accurs it rattles the rings and lets oil and other stuff by leaving the residue on the porcelin of the plugs. The porcelins also have tons of pepper on them which is your piston AKA detonation. The fact that you melted your electrode says that your plugs are too hot, however i think thats not the case since your afrs were so lean. You said 18deg of total timing but at what psi and what RPM? 91 oct and this tune= crazy. lol

ive been running 14.5 psi on 91 pump and i think peak toruqe is where he added the timing.

[MikeE36]

ive been running 14.5 psi on 91 pump and i think peak toruqe is where he added the timing.

d'oh! :eek:

-Mike

[5mall5nail5]

Yeah peak the torque, then add timing. Rinse. Repeat to taste.

[das Boot]

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/helmvr4/IMG_1228.jpg

See those little silver blobs on the end of the threads? That was once a piece of your piston. Like others have said, your motor is running way too hot.

I run about 11.5:1 AFR at WOT - it cost a little bit of power from running in the low 12's, but offers a much larger safety margin on pump gas.

Whoever tuned your car didn't know what they were doing.

i knew the tune was sketch but i didnt know it was this bad
i knew i should have flown in vic

[highboostingm3]

Three letters son:

TRM

[das Boot]

Three letters son:

TRM

its tempting man but vic is just a few states away

[5mall5nail5]

I can't speak for mike but I don't think he'd touch a TEC3R

[das Boot]

I can't speak for mike but I don't think he'd touch a TEC3R

yeah i spoke with mike about messing with it when i bought the car, long story short it was too little notice and if i remeber correctly wasent too fond or familiar with the tec3, but its installed i my car and i dont wanna remove it id just rather get a good safe tune on it and enjoy the car

[5mall5nail5]

Its kind of like saying "I'd like an economical, reliable, safe driving Ford Pinto"

[highboostingm3]

I can't speak for mike but I don't think he'd touch a TEC3R
I apologize...I thought people would have figured that I meant to switch to stock DME and have TRM tune that.

[Ted B]

... with the colder nights and 4 gear pulls the afr is now in the high 12's:eek: the car absolutly loves but it ...

The engine doesn't. :help



1st pic cylinders 1-6, can anyone tell me why plug number 3 looks so different looks like its covered in ash ?? plug 1 the electrode was almost welded to the core and plug 6 was almost all melted off, no coolant puch or headlift ...

This is what happens when detonation is evident. The next thing to go will be either a headgasket or the piston ring lands. #3 looks almost fouled, for what reason is unclear at this juncture.

It's (past) time to get a tune. Check for a possible fault in the ignition or injector at #3 while you're at it.

[ritoab]

When i use to run only nitrous on my car I melted plugs the first run so i had to get colder plugs. anyway the electrode that melted on my valves eventually burnt through and caused the compression to drop. Had to remove head and replace intake valve and resurface the head. This is what you will have to do or like me, 6 months down the road you will have to pull that head. Don't just replace the spark plugs. take the head off while you are looking for tuning and remove deposits now.

[jfdmas]

The engine doesn't. :help



This is what happens when detonation is evident. The next thing to go will be either a headgasket or the piston ring lands. #3 looks almost fouled, for what reason is unclear at this juncture.

It's (past) time to get a tune. Check for a possible fault in the ignition or injector at #3 while you're at it.

like i said already, it could be oil fouled from the detonation. This is probably the worst case detonation i have scene posted here yet.


other person, peak torque should not be your highest timing point. I havnt played with 91oct, or even with a tec3 yet but id imagine that even you can open up your fuel map and add 15-20% MORE FUEL in your boost cells. You dont need a tuner to do that.

[Colby Colbs]

its amazing that ur car was running "amazing"... any vids?

[highboostingm3]

its amazing that ur car was running "amazing"... any vids?
Aaaahahahahaha :rofl:

[M3GSX]

Too many people here are soooo quick to pay someone for a tune. Just listen to what JFDMAS said and just add some more fuel across the board. Take a couple degrees of timing out and DONE.

[Boots]

^
absolutely, it should be an easy fix. its also a good idea to read your plugs often when tuning for extra measure, thats all race cars had to tune with for years back in the day.

[highboostingm3]

Too many people here are soooo quick to pay someone for a tune. Just listen to what JFDMAS said and just add some more fuel across the board. Take a couple degrees of timing out and DONE.
I will say that you just made me think of a great idea:
1) jfdmas is always complaining about money.
2) jfdmas knows how to tune these cars like a pro.
3) You pay jfdmas to remote tune your standalone.
4) You leave tire markes with a smile and not a broken engine = win.

[trthrrt489]

Too many people here are soooo quick to pay someone for a tune. Just listen to what JFDMAS said and just add some more fuel across the board. Take a couple degrees of timing out and DONE.

Paying Vic a few hundred to remote tune your car is a no brainier. I'm sure many people can do it, but, when you can roll on any dyno in the country and have a professional do it for a few hours of time, that's piece of mind IMO.

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

All I can say is hot hot must EGT's be in order to burn a plug??

[5mall5nail5]

EGTs don't burn plugs, in fact, the higher the EGTs, usually the colder the plug is.

[Colby Colbs]

high cylinder temp sure will... in for pic of ur pistons! and leakdown numbers

[M3GSX]

Paying Vic a few hundred to remote tune your car is a no brainier. I'm sure many people can do it, but, when you can roll on any dyno in the country and have a professional do it for a few hours of time, that's piece of mind IMO.


I agree.

The point that I am trying to get across is that patience is a virtue when it comes to things such as tuning.

When you have a stand alone, such as a tech3. There are vasts amounts of tuners qualified to do the job. For example, I am certified to tune AEM EMS. I have not played around with a T3R, but a fuel map is a fuel map and a timing map is a timing map. Load tables are load tables. It's almost a universal language once you get past the GUI.

One datalog with basic info such as wideband AFR, Timing, Throttle position, RPM, etc. And I bet any reputable tuner can prevent this mishap from happening again.

[5mall5nail5]

The only one qualified to tune a TEC3R is Zeus, and he uses a bolt of lightning...and then you get something better.

[Colby Colbs]

i bet chuck could do, he can do anything!

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

EGTs don't burn plugs, in fact, the higher the EGTs, usually the colder the plug is.

Really? Thank you for the correction Jon. I learned something new today. (maybe I should quite college and just study the forums, lol)


Now, why the higher the egt is the colder the plug?

[5mall5nail5]

Its easy once you think about it - the later you ignite the mixture, the later the reaction occurs. If you retard the point at which it ignites, more and more of the mixture will be combusting as the exhaust valves open - heating the exhaust. Thus, exhaust temps go up. If you advance the timing, the event happens sooner, an all the components in the combustion chamber experience the heat, while the exhaust is subjected to the left overs, which usually aren't as hot. So, advance = heat in the chamber which means power, but can damage components. Retard = heat in the exhaust, less power, lower combustion temps and lower chance of detonation (safer).

[das Boot]

ok slapped i a new set of plugs and went to my tuner, threw 15 % at past 4000 rpm where my power starts to come in, ok so some more info on the tune, this tune was on the engine that came with the car and had a weird intake mani and intake plumbig befor the turbo, when i built the new engine with a fresh block and new rings and did a turbo engine break resulting in a better engine with better compression in and adding a m50 intake mani and just putting a wire screen on the turbo inlet as apposed to the old setup most likey changed the tune so im gonna retune completly for e85, leekdown held 100 psi no problem

thanks everyonr for good advise

[jfdmas]

omg is that all 1 long sentence? lol no prob, if you have any quetions feel free to ask. I wouldnt go assuming your outta the woods yet. Make sure your afr's are good into the 11's and you may still have to pull some timing around peak torque if detonation still accurs on the 91octane your runnin.


Its easy once you think about it - the later you ignite the mixture, the later the reaction occurs. If you retard the point at which it ignites, more and more of the mixture will be combusting as the exhaust valves open - heating the exhaust. Thus, exhaust temps go up. If you advance the timing, the event happens sooner, an all the components in the combustion chamber experience the heat, while the exhaust is subjected to the left overs, which usually aren't as hot. So, advance = heat in the chamber which means power, but can damage components. Retard = heat in the exhaust, less power, lower combustion temps and lower chance of detonation (safer).

colder plugs dont realy retard the timing/spark though jon i dont think. the porcelin just doesnt turn into a glow plug pre igniting the fuel before its supposed to. thats the benefits to runnin a colder plug.