Jabsco vs Bosch vs Other Aftercooler Pumps?

[chikinhed]

My aftercooler pump packed it in, I searched and some say the Bosch OEM pumps are good and some say the Jabsco Centri Puppy is the way to go........

What do you guys say?

[Jim M3]

I replaced my Bosch with a Jabsco pump, it seems a lot better built than the Bosch, but it also weighs more.

[switlikbob]

I used the jabsco pump with my former setup. It moves a lot more water (gph) than the bosh, and it is marine grade. It's just a better pump made with better materials that will last longer. The down side is that brass weighs a lot more than plastic...LOL

[pbonsalb]

Look at what is used on factory water/air intercooler cars, like Ford 4.6/5.4 supercharged engines. I think they use the Bosch pumps. Also consider how the Ford tuners upgrade those systems. I think they leave the Bosch pump, but increase the size of the heat exchanger and add or enlarge the reservoir.

[chikinhed]

I replaced my Bosch with a Jabsco pump, it seems a lot better built than the Bosch, but it also weighs more.

Jim, you had said in another thread that your temps were lower with the Jabsco pump, do you still beleive that's the case?

[Neil]

FWIW, I believe I'm running a CM30 Johnson marine pump.

http://www.johnson-pump.com/JPMarine/products/circulation/cmco.html

Neil

[switlikbob]

Jim, you had said in another thread that your temps were lower with the Jabsco pump, do you still beleive that's the case?

I actually compared the water flow of the jabsco and the bosch. The difference was astronomical (although I don't have the numbers in front of me). It makes sense to me that more water running through the aftercooler and FMHE would lead to cooler intake temps.

I had one of those jabsco pumps on my old boat hooked up to a hose and it made insane water pressure...more than enough to wash down the poop-deck.

[chikinhed]

Look at what is used on factory water/air intercooler cars, like Ford 4.6/5.4 supercharged engines. I think they use the Bosch pumps. Also consider how the Ford tuners upgrade those systems. I think they leave the Bosch pump, but increase the size of the heat exchanger and add or enlarge the reservoir.

Did you try a different pump?

[pbonsalb]

I ran the small Jabsco that used to come with the RMS kits, a bigger Jabsco, and the Bosch and noticed no differences, but I did not do testing of the temperature of the aftercooler coolant. I do not know what is most important -- the time the coolant spends in the heat exchanger (and thus the flow of the pump) or the size of the heat exchanger or the total volume of the coolant (including reservoir if any). Pumps can heat up the liquid flowing through them.

It seems to me that the Ford engineers found the Bosch pump to be good for their water/air intercooler systems and they did far more testing than any of us. It also seems to me that the tuners who hotrod the Fords tend to increase the size of the HE and the volume of coolant more than they increase the flow of the pump, but maybe there are some articles that I have not yet seen that deal with pumps. One of the biggest makers of water/air intercoolers for supercharger kits, Vortech, also uses the Bosch pump.

I don't know the answer, but would like to see some data if you find any.

[Neil]

I ran the small Jabsco that used to come with the RMS kits, a bigger Jabsco, and the Bosch and noticed no differences, but I did not do testing of the temperature of the aftercooler coolant. I do not know what is most important -- the time the coolant spends in the heat exchanger (and thus the flow of the pump) or the size of the heat exchanger or the total volume of the coolant (including reservoir if any). Pumps can heat up the liquid flowing through them.

It seems to me that the Ford engineers found the Bosch pump to be good for their water/air intercooler systems and they did far more testing than any of us. It also seems to me that the tuners who hotrod the Fords tend to increase the size of the HE and the volume of coolant more than they increase the flow of the pump, but maybe there are some articles that I have not yet seen that deal with pumps. One of the biggest makers of water/air intercoolers for supercharger kits, Vortech, also uses the Bosch pump.

I don't know the answer, but would like to see some data if you find any.

I, too, would be interested in data/studies.

I have to imagine that for any given system that there is an optimal "dwell time" for most efficient cooling.

Neil

[M3GSX]

http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/Meziere-Enterprises/Product-Line/Meziere-Remote-Electric-Water-Pumps/?autoview=SKU

[black bnr32]

I, too, would be interested in data/studies.

I have to imagine that for any given system that there is an optimal "dwell time" for most efficient cooling.

Neil


Yep, there is an optimum flow rate. Not "faster is better". The important variables in heat exchange are the surface area, flow rate of the 2 fluids, and the heat transfer coefficient for the given exchanger.

Here's a random page I found which might give more insight:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html

I'm pretty sure we're limited by the size of the aftercooler core and not the pump, but haven't done the calculations.

[ZHP]

FWIW, I believe I'm running a CM30 Johnson marine pump.

http://www.johnson-pump.com/JPMarine/products/circulation/cmco.html

Neil

Johnson marine pump with my kit as well, don't recall the specific model right off.

[pbonsalb]

The Johnson 30CM looks like about 30 gpm with zero pressure. I am guessing there should be little or no pressure in water/air intercooler system, but am not an engineer. Maybe the pump and tubing and aftercooler and heat exchanger are restrictions that create pressure and thus reduce rated flow?

The RMS water/air intercooler kit holds about 1 gallon total capacity, based on my memory. Not sure about the ESS system, but I am pretty sure it includes a reservoir that probably adds 50% to 100% to what would likely otherwise be about a gallon as well.

If one gallon capacity and 30 gpm pump, the coolant should fully circulate every 2 seconds. Is that likely? If 2 gallons, then every 4 seconds. Maybe more likely, but I am still not sure. If the restrictions create pressure and reduce flow, then maybe the coolant is circulating at a more likely rate. If it is not, the pump may be cavitating or otherwise heating up or disturbing the flow of coolant. Again, I am not an engineer, but presume there is a proper flow rate range and wonder whether maybe some of these high volume pumps are exceeding that range for small heat exchanger systems like these. Any engineers have comments?

[chikinhed]

Dam it!

The only local option I have is the Jabsco pump, no one in town has or can get the Ford Racing pump in an acceptable amount of time and/or money.

The good news for all of you is that I have an intake air temp gauge that I am always looking at so i can let you know what the new temps will read once the pump is in.

I don't like the weight of the new pump......... :(

[Tchao]

I doubt you guys produce enough heat to max out the heat carrying ability of water.
With so much in the way, you are much better off increasing cooler size to give the water a better opportunity to snag the heat away.

[chikinhed]

Oh sure, you pick the hardest of all the possible mods to suggest an upgrade on. :stickoutt

A short drive last night looked promising as far as IATs go with the Jabsco pump installed. Further updates coming soon.

[pbonsalb]

I did an under bumper HE that was a dual pass upgrade model for a Ford Mustang and I put twin Spal 6 inch fans on the back of it, but those fans meant that I had to remove the stock aux fan and run a thinner aftermarket pusher fan for the AC.

It is hard to find the perfect system. If you use a HE that covers the AC condenser, you really need an even stronger aux fan, not a weaker one. I think the early RMS HE used a small 12 inch pusher fan in place of the stock aux fan. Maybe just the right HE would slide into the thin gap between the aux fan bracket and the AC condenser.

The fan should be run full time in hot weather or controlled by some sort of low temp fan switch (ideally one that turns the fan on when the water temp is maybe 10 degrees over ambient air temp). On the highway, the fan probably is not needed.

[BMWjiggaB]

I upgraded my fan to something a little bit bigger. Being in Texas with 100 degree days doesnt help to much. I need to get a tank as well to increase the cooling capacity. You can see the old "factory hayes fan" from rms. After boosting on it and what not, I can put my hand on the heatexchanger and its nice and cool.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/BMW328is/My%20Car/P1050099.jpg


I also had to notch out the alum bumper support as well. You can see that I took out about 3/4" or so.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/BMW328is/My%20Car/P1050103.jpg

[futureroadracer]

Gents,

I do not think the aftercooler pump or heat exchanger is going to be a limiting factor for many of us. I am using the the Bosch pump and a very small heat exchanger and I am making over 475whp now. My heat exchanger is about 1/3rd the size of BMWjiggab posted above. My tune is also running a lot of timing and I do not have any issues with detonation or power.

I think it many of you would benefit more from a custom tune or water inection instead of the trying to test a new or different aftercooler pump.

[BMWjiggaB]

Gents,

I do not think the aftercooler pump or heat exchanger is going to be a limiting factor for many of us. I am using the the Bosch pump and a very small heat exchanger and I am making over 475whp now. My heat exchanger is about 1/3rd the size of BMWjiggab posted above. My tune is also running a lot of timing and I do not have any issues with detonation or power.

I think it many of you would benefit more from a custom tune or water inection instead of the trying to test a new or different aftercooler pump.

I wish it didnt have to be so big, lol. I would like to have more space available so that my radiator can breathe better. I have water/meth injection as well. I think that its sized ok and the pump seems to flow enough and it stays cool.

[chikinhed]

If I was able to get the bosch pump locally I would have gone that route. My tune utilizes water injection and I have richened the top end with water and meth.

I have another track day on Tuesday and needed to get this sorted out sooner than later.

In comparison between the Bosch and Jabsco Centri Puppy, the Bosch is smaller, lighter, uses less amperage and does not have an external shaft seal that can wear out and leak - it uses a magnetic coupling to turn the vane, it's cheaper and it flows enough for most aftercooler systems. You can even get the Bosch in 'brushless' which is even smaller and lighter.

The Jabsco is available at boat supply stores, there's a plus for ya. ;)

I'm still testing the new Jabsco. It's temperature behaviour is different than the old Bosch, just haven't figured it out yet.

[black bnr32]

If I had my old textbooks on heat exchanger design, I'd get some answers for you guys. Unfortunately, I sold them after I took the class and am having trouble finding the info through google searches.

[q2driver]

I have a S52 with a Vortech supercharger and RMS after-cooler. My original pump was a heavy Jabsco that cavitated and superheated my supercharger resulting in a full supercharger rebuild. I installed a light Johnson marine pump with a 5 liter coolant reservoir on the rebuild. I can look in the reservoir and see the coolant swirling from the high flow rate. The Johnson is small, light, cheap, and runs forever. I will use nothing else.

[pbonsalb]

Where did you put the reservoir?

[futureroadracer]

HUH? I do not understand how an after-cooler pump would overheat your blower... what am I missing?


I have a S52 with a Vortech supercharger and RMS after-cooler. My original pump was a heavy Jabsco that cavitated and superheated my supercharger resulting in a full supercharger rebuild. I installed a light Johnson marine pump with a 5 liter coolant reservoir on the rebuild. I can look in the reservoir and see the coolant swirling from the high flow rate. The Johnson is small, light, cheap, and runs forever. I will use nothing else.

[black bnr32]

I have a S52 with a Vortech supercharger and RMS after-cooler. My original pump was a heavy Jabsco that cavitated and superheated my supercharger resulting in a full supercharger rebuild. I installed a light Johnson marine pump with a 5 liter coolant reservoir on the rebuild. I can look in the reservoir and see the coolant swirling from the high flow rate. The Johnson is small, light, cheap, and runs forever. I will use nothing else.

Yeah...sorry, but somebody is pulling your leg on that one. Doesn't make sense.

[q2driver]

My reservoir is where the battery sits in most models. I will try to post some pictures.

Sorry about confusing the issue with the supercharger rebuild. Here is a little more background on the subject.
When my jabsco pump stopped pumping, I could tell by the performance and the heat of the intake area that is normally cooled by the aftercooler. I called the mechanic that originally built the car to see if I should drive it. He stated it would be OK, only the performance would suffer.
I drove pretty hard on the way to the BMW dealer to pick up some parts. As I got out of the car, I noticed a big trail of oil in the drive leading right to my car. The seal in my supercharger had failed due to the heat and the engine pumped out most of the oil through the failed seal. It was shear luck that I stopped when I did before oil pressure was lost. I had the car towed back to my shop.
I later read a post about having an aftercooler installed but not working. It basically said it could lead to "super heating" of the supercharger. I can personally state that this is indeed the case. My supercharger was fairly new when this occurred.
DO NOT drive your car without the aftercooler system working!

[futureroadracer]

LOL Sorry, it doesn't work like that. The after-cooler pump failing had nothing to do with your supercharger getting hot or failing. The after-cooler pump only circulates water from the heat-exchanger through the after-cooler. It has nothing to do with the supercharger's operating temperature or supercharger oil temperature. In fact, many supercharger kits don't even come with an after-cooler or the suspect pump.

That said a failed pump will never create enough heat to damage the supercharger regardless of its location. I suspect your blower was just on its way out, which is a pretty common occurrence regardless of blower age.



It is where battery sits in most models. I will try to post some pictures.

Sorry about confusing the issue with the supercharger rebuild. Here is a little more background on the subject.
When my jabsco pump stopped pumping, I could tell by the performance and the heat of the intake area that is normally cooled by the aftercooler. I called the mechanic that originally built the car to see if I should drive it. He stated it would be OK, only the performance would suffer.
I drove pretty hard on the way to the BMW dealer to pick up some parts. As I got out of the car, I noticed a big trail of oil in the drive leading right to my car. The seal in my supercharger had failed due to the heat and the engine pumped out most of the oil through the failed seal. It was shear luck that I stopped when I did before oil pressure was lost. I had the car towed back to my shop.
I later read a post about having an aftercooler installed but not working. It basically said it could lead to "super heating" of the supercharger. I can personally state that this is indeed the case. My supercharger was fairly new when this occurred.
DO NOT drive your car without the aftercooler system working!

[q2driver]

Read my previous post. I am not guessing on what happened. The post I read was on the aftercooler manufactures website. I will try to find it. I was told by Vortech when they rebuilt the supercharger, which was still under warranty, that it showed signs of intense heat. They had to replace the entire gear case. I know it doesn't make since and that is why the mechanic said it was OK to drive the car.

I live in Seattle and it was not a hot day when this happened. The supercharger was not worn out. It was new and still under warranty. I am only trying to educate you to prevent a repeat of what happened to me. Don't shoot the messenger......

[jmargo]

I have both pumps...the jabsco is sitting in the garage. I am looking to add a reservoir in the trunk or this cooler behind the pass side brake duct/fog light. Not sure if the bosch would like to move the fluid through two HE.

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=217&products_id=1113&osCsid=cabef47611ce3251a651c3324a0beb22

[BavarianLove]

frozenboost is the sheit!

[black bnr32]

Read my previous post. I am not guessing on what happened. The post I read was on the aftercooler manufactures website. I will try to find it. I was told by Vortech when they rebuilt the supercharger, which was still under warranty, that it showed signs of intense heat. They had to replace the entire gear case. I know it doesn't make since and that is why the mechanic said it was OK to drive the car.

I live in Seattle and it was not a hot day when this happened. The supercharger was not worn out. It was new and still under warranty. I am only trying to educate you to prevent a repeat of what happened to me. Don't shoot the messenger......

The excess heat was most likely caused by a failing bearing(excess friction) inside the gear case.

[futureroadracer]

You really think the Jabsco electric pump superheated your blower and caused failure? How close was the pump to the blower? Do you know how close the failing pump would have to be to transfer heat to the blower unit? Do you know the blowers operating temperature under high boost? Where did you have the pump mounted? You mentioned where most battery's are... where was the pump located exactly?


Read my previous post. I am not guessing on what happened. The post I read was on the aftercooler manufactures website. I will try to find it. I was told by Vortech when they rebuilt the supercharger, which was still under warranty, that it showed signs of intense heat. They had to replace the entire gear case. I know it doesn't make since and that is why the mechanic said it was OK to drive the car.

I live in Seattle and it was not a hot day when this happened. The supercharger was not worn out. It was new and still under warranty. I am only trying to educate you to prevent a repeat of what happened to me. Don't shoot the messenger......

[q2driver]

Car was professionally built by BMW tech with no expense spared. I purchased the car as it was when the failure occurred. I had not put in the reservoir yet. Everything was "by the book". Obviously, you know more about it than I do. I guess it was just coincidence that it failed the one day the pump was not working. I stand corrected.

After supercharger was rebuilt, I installed Canton supercharger reservoir and Johnson marine pump. Pump was located in the same place the old jabsco was in front bumper by brake cooling duct. I had to move several components to get the Canton tank to fit. If you look at most other systems that have air/water coolers, they all have reservoir's except ours. As soon as I have a little more time, I will post a link to Picasso site for pictures of the set-up.

[futureroadracer]

I currently run a very small heat exchanger, the RMS aftercooler and the Bosch pump. I see 115* IAT's in 4th gear on the dyno with WI (which is very a low temp) and 135*-150* without WI. This is still pretty low when compared to domestic cars running less boost. I'm making 20psi with a T-trim on an S50.

As I mentioned before, I think you guys would see larger gains by getting a custom tune or installing another mod like cams, larger headers etc. Many seem to be trying to improve a system that seems to works fine (pending more data). Before you go off and spend money on pumps, fans, reservoirs etc., measure your blower outlet temps and after-cooler outlet temps, then compare. If your after-cooler outlets are between 20-40* above ambient, you are pretty much perfect and definitely don't need any additional components.

I am sure the reservoir will help, just not sure how much or if it's worth it... I am interested to see the data though. I imagine the circulating water will be slightly cooler but I don't expect much in terms of reducing IAT's.

I should be making right around 485-495whp currently and I do not see any signs of detonation or ignition retard on my dyno sheets, which leads me to believe 115*-150* IAT's are just fine for my current power levels.


Car was professionally built by BMW tech with no expense spared. I purchased the car as it was when the failure occurred. I had not put in the reservoir yet. Everything was "by the book". Obviously, you know more about it than I do. I guess it was just coincidence that it failed the one day the pump was not working. I stand corrected.

After supercharger was rebuilt, I installed Canton supercharger reservoir and Johnson marine pump. Pump was located in the same place the old jabsco was in front bumper by brake cooling duct. I had to move several components to get the Canton tank to fit. If you look at most other systems that have air/water coolers, they all have reservoir's except ours. As soon as I have a little more time, I will post a link to Picasso site for pictures of the set-up.

[pbonsalb]

There was a good article on Vortech's aftercooler fitted to a Mustang:

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/65218_vortech_aftercooler_temperatures/index.html

Looks like up to 30 degrees over ambient is OK. Vortech likes the reservoir because it adds enough coolant to stabilize the system so coolant temps rise very little -- not more than 10 degrees over ambient.

While on the intercooler subject, has anyone taken pressure drop measurements (pre/post IC boost) for the small RMS water/air intercooler?

[chikinhed]

Thanks for you feed back guys, I've driven the car with the Jabsco pump in all kinds of conditions now including a slalom training day that was 104*F outside and a track day yesterday and from the temps that I see on my IAT gauge the temps are more consistant and if they do creap up a bit in stop and go traffic they drop right back down when I move again, my conclusion is the increased flow rate is an improvement, the heat from the motor is not a factor so the only draw backs are the weight and the current draw.

[black bnr32]

Would you mind putting the IAT difference into numbers? Before and after?

[chikinhed]

Before I would have IATs 20-30*C above ambient, now I am seeing 13-20*C above ambient cruising and in stop and go traffic. Readings are with temps stabilized.

[jmargo]

Where did you mount it ? Its rather large and heavy over the bosch. Also did you use the same power wire ? Seems like the power draw may be higher on the jabsco.

[chikinhed]

Where did you mount it ? Its rather large and heavy over the bosch. Also did you use the same power wire ? Seems like the power draw may be higher on the jabsco.

I mounted it in the same spot and I had originally gone over kill on the wire when I installed the Bosch pump.