dealership pulling my leg?

[modestgod]

i had a little transmission issue in my 07 335i...

they are now replacing the "valve body" and the computer...

yesterday i got a call from the lead tech and he said that i have to put the original factory stereo deck back in the car or he cannot finish fixing the transmission. he says the computer wont update without all the original components of the car...

is he just blowing smoke where the sun doesn't shine? or is this a valid request and im going to end up having to purchase a new factory deck (that will literally be ripped out and never used again after hes done...)

i hope this thread is in the right forum!

[MrSaikou]

They must have a deck somewhere at the dealer shipright ? If you don't have the deck anymore, just tell em tough Sh1t!

The difficulty of changing batteries, and now this is getting to be really ridiculous.

[bowmang]

They must have a deck somewhere at the dealer shipright ? If you don't have the deck anymore, just tell em tough Sh1t!

The difficulty of changing batteries, and now this is getting to be really ridiculous.

go ahead... tell them tough shit then don't get your car fixed.

yes, it's a valid request. unfortunately for you, i guess you didn't hold on to the old deck. i suggest holding onto this one if you end up buying another one.

[Sapphire Black]

go ahead... tell them tough shit then don't get your car fixed.

yes, it's a valid request. unfortunately for you, i guess you didn't hold on to the old deck. i suggest holding onto this one if you end up buying another one.

I've owned my '08 335xi for four months, love the way it drives, but when I'm done with it, I doubt I'll get another one.

How ridiculous is this? Change the radio and the factory can't fix a mechanical problem? That sucks.

It may also violate certain consumer protection laws in this country.

SB

[john bono]

go ahead... tell them tough shit then don't get your car fixed.

yes, it's a valid request. unfortunately for you, i guess you didn't hold on to the old deck. i suggest holding onto this one if you end up buying another one.

Yes, it is valid in the sense of "Yes, the only way we can fix your tranny is to hook it to the OEM stereo."

However, it is also valid in the sense of, "Yes, the engineers at BMW are such dumbasses that they couldn't even contemplate someone wanting to replace their weak-ass OEM stereo with a better aftermarket unit, and yes, the only way to repair your car will be to reinstall the crappy stereo, preferably equipped with every David Hasselhoff song ever recorded, the way a proper German car should be."

[samger2]

I think what alot of people don't think about is that when the German's build a car they're building it based upon performance...in other words, they don't care about drinking coffee when they drive, therefore the cupholders suck...their focus isn't on the stereo...therefore that may not be up to American standards....the areas that they focus on are of performance and handling...not of convenience and pleasure like coffee drinking and music listening.

[RabidChimp]

I love this forum. Everyone who has changed the own oil on their 15 year old car seems to think they are now an authority on modern automobile diagnosis and repair.

[BoldUlysses]

I love this forum. Everyone who has changed the own oil on their 15 year old car seems to think they are now an authority on modern automobile diagnosis and repair.

That's fair, but you do have to admit that it defies common sense for there to be a relationship between the OEM stereo and the transmission. I mean, what could those two possibly have to "talk about?"

If I decide to repair the broken refrigerator in my house, do I need to repaint the walls in the kitchen the original color?

-Matt

[john bono]

I love this forum. Everyone who has changed the own oil on their 15 year old car seems to think they are now an authority on modern automobile diagnosis and repair.

It's a design question, not a repair/procedure question. Can you explain why it makes more sense to use the OEM stereo for this diagnostic rather than using an OBD port, or having a separate USB port to do this, especially since it is, and has been commonplace for as long as I remember for people to replace/repair OEM stereos with third party units, and that 9 times out of 10, the third party stereo is superior to the OEM unit?

This is like the requirement to reset the battery charging for replacing the battery. The process maybe gains a year on an item that lasts for 5 years. It adds serious money to the cost of replacing a battery, and if the procedure isn't followed, will shorten the life of the new battery. The benefits of the change in the charging system are outweighed by the serious drawbacks of it.

[325bob]

It's a design question, not a repair/procedure question. Can you explain why it makes more sense to use the OEM stereo for this diagnostic rather than using an OBD port, or having a separate USB port to do this, especially since it is, and has been commonplace for as long as I remember for people to replace/repair OEM stereos with third party units, and that 9 times out of 10, the third party stereo is superior to the OEM unit?

This is like the requirement to reset the battery charging for replacing the battery. The process maybe gains a year on an item that lasts for 5 years. It adds serious money to the cost of replacing a battery, and if the procedure isn't followed, will shorten the life of the new battery. The benefits of the change in the charging system are outweighed by the serious drawbacks of it.

Hey, if they can't fasten the shift knob on well enough, how well do you think they can design complex electronics? How hard would it have been to program a "drive train only" diagnosis mode into the Brainiac? regard all faults except drive train" into the diagnosis

[bowmang]

it's got nothing to do with the diagnosis... they already got that part figured out.

however, he's replacing a major computer in the vehicle... this computer requires programming of the vehicle to get it to properly communicate with the rest of the car.

no... the radio doesn't communicate with the transmission module, but when they hook up the programming tool, it will run a "measures check".. this basically checks the entire vehicle to see if everything is up to date, and if it isn't... then it updates it. if you don't have the stock component in there, then it doesn't see it.. and says "before programming, please replace the radio with part number xxxxxxx" and won't go further.

OP... there's one thing you can try. call the dealer, talk to the master tech, and see if they can program only the module that was replaced. they may be able to do it.... but if they already called you asking for the OEM radio, then there may be something else preventing it.

[tuffluck]

it's got nothing to do with the diagnosis... they already got that part figured out.

however, he's replacing a major computer in the vehicle... this computer requires programming of the vehicle to get it to properly communicate with the rest of the car.

no... the radio doesn't communicate with the transmission module, but when they hook up the programming tool, it will run a "measures check".. this basically checks the entire vehicle to see if everything is up to date, and if it isn't... then it updates it. if you don't have the stock component in there, then it doesn't see it.. and says "before programming, please replace the radio with part number xxxxxxx" and won't go further.

OP... there's one thing you can try. call the dealer, talk to the master tech, and see if they can program only the module that was replaced. they may be able to do it.... but if they already called you asking for the OEM radio, then there may be something else preventing it.

why can't they just plug a factory radio into the car for him and get the problem fixed? seems like they would have one lying around. plug his new one back in when done and no damage done.

[bowmang]

why can't they just plug a factory radio into the car for him and get the problem fixed? seems like they would have one lying around. plug his new one back in when done and no damage done.

well.. they probably don't have one laying around... and if they do, chances are it belongs to another car. once it's programmed to one vehicle, it can't be programmed to another, so it would just fail, potentially causing more damage.

[modestgod]

well here is an update for you guys!

i understand the whole needing the factory deck to program the rest of the computer... my problem is that they are now telling me that a replacement is 1500$

i know its my problem cause i should have kept better track of where the factory deck was... i remember it being in my trunk for a long time, and then i must have moved it either way ive pulled my whole house apart looking for it, and have not yet found it...

another interesting thing is that i asked if they could just take the radio out of another car, and plug it in and program it and then take the radio back out because i dont need it... and their response is that

when programed to a car, the radio is permantly "mated" to the car they could nto reprogram it afterwords... which sounds fishy but hey its not as crazy sounding as , we need your factory radio to program the transmission....

(im still looking for my factory deck)

[jprovence]

why can't they just plug a factory radio into the car for him and get the problem fixed? seems like they would have one lying around. plug his new one back in when done and no damage done.

Dealer service isn't run like Uncle Harry's Repair in Freemont, OH. There isn't a pile of junk parts laying around just for such an occassion.

[tuffluck]

Dealer service isn't run like Uncle Harry's Repair in Freemont, OH. There isn't a pile of junk parts laying around just for such an occassion.

Uncle Harry's Repair in Freemont, OH FTW! :alright

[MrSaikou]

I love this forum. Everyone who has changed the own oil on their 15 year old car seems to think they are now an authority on modern automobile diagnosis and repair.


The guy just got quoted $1500 for a factory deck, so that he can get his transmission repair completed.

I'm no expert, but I think I can spot a problem. Can you ?

[RabidChimp]

The guy just got quoted $1500 for a factory deck, so that he can get his transmission repair completed.

I'm no expert, but I think I can spot a problem. Can you ?

Nope. It is OPs fault for installing an aftermarket radio and misplacing his factory unit.

[BoldUlysses]

Nope. It is OPs fault for installing an aftermarket radio and misplacing his factory unit.

Is there literature somewhere (owner's manual, etc) that advises owners against replacing the factory headunit for this reason?

-Matt

[RabidChimp]

Is there literature somewhere (owner's manual, etc) that advises owners against replacing the factory headunit for this reason?

-Matt

Page 38 of the E90 3 series Warranty booklet states:


Non-BMW parts - While you may elect to use non-genuine BMW parts for maintenance or repair services, BMW NA is not obligated to pay for repairs that include non-genuine BMW part or for any damage resulting from the use of non genuine parts.

BMW will not accept any liability for parts and accessories not approved by BMW.

[BradR127]

Is there literature somewhere (owner's manual, etc) that advises owners against replacing the factory headunit for this reason?

-Matt


Page 38 of the E90 3 series Warranty booklet states:

Non-BMW parts - While you may elect to use non-genuine BMW parts for maintenance or repair services, BMW NA is not obligated to pay for repairs that include non-genuine BMW part or for any damage resulting from the use of non genuine parts.

BMW will not accept any liability for parts and accessories not approved by BMW.



Burn. :)

[tuffluck]

i say call another dealership at least, or call a reputable local mechanic that isn't at the dealership and see what they say. then we can have the he said, he said stuff...

[montaillou]

Burn. :)

So, a non-factory radio is the cause of OP's transmission problem? That is the only thing I can take from that quote of the manual.

Does the warranty say it's void if the factory radio is removed? If it doesn't, I'd say the dealer should do what they need to do to fix it.

[RabidChimp]

If it doesn't, I'd say the dealer should do what they need to do to fix it.

There wouldn't be a problem here if OP had his factory radio, the techs would plug it in code/program the car and the car would be fixed.

The problem stands OP misplaced his factory radio and its not the dealers fault nor is it BMWs that it has gone missing.

[modestgod]

I have not said it was BMW's fault..... and yes it was my problem to misplace the factory deck...... the whole ordeal just sounded fishy so I thought I would check with someone that knows more than I do... because this is deffinatly not my area of expertice!

And I thank everyone for their input... but to sum it up if I can't find my factory deck I'm paying out 1500$ am I correct?

I have not said it was BMW's fault..... and yes it was my problem to misplace the factory deck...... the whole ordeal just sounded fishy so I thought I would check with someone that knows more than I do... because this is deffinatly not my area of expertice!

And I thank everyone for their input... but to sum it up if I can't find my factory deck I'm paying out 1500$ am I correct?

[Placey]

yes, unfortunately that may be the case....

[redfoot]

Oh, these cars are gonna be such a joy to own once they hit the 10 year mark.
:rofl

FWIW, I find it very difficult to believe the only way to get "around" this programing issue is for you to shell out $1500.

[MrSaikou]

Oh, these cars are gonna be such a joy to own once they hit the 10 year mark.
:rofl

FWIW, I find it very difficult to believe the only way to get "around" this programing issue is for you to shell out $1500.

+1

Somebody needs to try harder :rolleyes

[111geek]

I think the dealer is trying to take advantage of you. I'm not an expert, but warranty laws basically state that BMW would have to prove that whatever aftermarket parts you used (including radio) caused a particular failure to deny a claim. Outside of that they would be responsible for a warranty repair. A radio is not going to cause a transmission failure. Since they really don't want to be exposed to a bunch of extra costs themselves, BMW certainly would have a method to program and update components individually. I don't know if you are under warranty or not, but either way they should be able to do the work without the original radio.

[phillipk]

BMW isn't denying the warranty claim because the radio caused the transmission failure, it sounds like they are still willing to cover the claim but can not proceed to go further because a piece of the original equipment that came with the car is missing. Cars now a days a lot more electronic equipment and sensors than ever and it just shows how removing something so trivial as a stereo can affect the whole computer system in the car.

[bimmer_boyis]

I think the dealer is trying to take advantage of you. I'm not an expert, but warranty laws basically state that BMW would have to prove that whatever aftermarket parts you used (including radio) caused a particular failure to deny a claim. Outside of that they would be responsible for a warranty repair. A radio is not going to cause a transmission failure. Since they really don't want to be exposed to a bunch of extra costs themselves, BMW certainly would have a method to program and update components individually. I don't know if you are under warranty or not, but either way they should be able to do the work without the original radio.

Contrary to the majority of people on the forums, the dealer is not out there to try and rip anyone off. As of E65 and later, vehicles have an Integration level. This ensures that all software in the vehicle is compliant at all times. With earlier I-bus vehicles control units could be programmed individually. Unfortunately new vehicles have multiple programmable control units that BMW is constantly trying to improve upon the software in them. That's why it checks for all modules that are listed in the vehicle order.

I know you are pissed about the situation, however think of the tech that cannot finish the job and get paid for the repairs because somebody decided to screw with the car. It's bad enough getting these cars programmed sometimes even without having to work around stuff.

I can tell you something that may help though, and the dealer is really in no way obligated to do it for you since it was your choice to modify a vehicle under warranty. There is software in place at some dealers, not sure if everyone has it or not, called IRAP. This is usually a last resort for us though. Basically an engineer in Woodcliff Lake can remotely program control units. Even with being able to program the mechatronic(valve body/trans control unit), i'm not sure if the coding would go through for the reset of the vehicle or not.

I would ask very nicely though. Like I said this is a last resort for us when there isn't a customer created problem, so they would be doing you a huge favor.

Good luck

[nickdrivesm3]

Love this thread...people really have a great view on how BMW works. Both with the cars and the dealerships. :rolleyes

[BEEMDUB]

yea their bullshittin

[Draw415]

So if the OEM stereo is "permanently mated" to a specific car once programed, then why are there so many OEM head units for sale in eBay and how are the people that buy them, including members of this forum, able to use those head units in their cars? Hmmm...sorry, not buying it. Just a way for BMW to offset the cost of the warranty repair, in my opinion.

[vertbmw]

Man that sucks, Why is it that when you program a componet it cannot be reprogramed to a new car? All used computers from parts cars are rendered useless? Where is the common sense?

[nickdrivesm3]

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Warranty program is structered?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Coding and Programming system (ISTA/P) works?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's MOST system operates?

[Draw415]

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Warranty program is structered?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Coding and Programming system (ISTA/P) works?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's MOST system operates?

Well you seem to be the expert, why don't you enlighten us common folk who change our own oil and think we know it all :oD

[MrSaikou]

Well you seem to be the expert, why don't you enlighten us common folk who change our own oil and think we know it all :oD

+1 Let's hear it

[redfoot]

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Warranty program is structered?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Coding and Programming system (ISTA/P) works?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's MOST system operates?

Are you saying, without a doubt, you are 100% certain this "programing" job can not be performed without a stock radio in place? There is absolutely no way a simple skip of the radio reprogram could allow them to complete this job?

And to be honest, I don't think I need to understand any of that to come to the conclusion that it is completely ridiculous a simple radio removal could render a 3 y/o $55k automobile unrepairable.

[STAGGERED M3]

modestgod, tell your dealer to find another deck from the 300 cars they have on the lot. Its sad that these guys are asking you for your stock deck instead of working with what they have and getting that car out. I mean shit I bet there is another car just like yours there waiting to get repaired and while sitting it can be used to get your car out! Call and complain and start getting pissed off, please don't buy another head unit.

[nickdrivesm3]

Well you seem to be the expert, why don't you enlighten us common folk who change our own oil and think we know it all :oD


+1 Let's hear it




What everyone needs to understand here is that this is a patented product from a reputable and efficent company that has been around for A LONG TIME. You really think they're going to design something that is easy to tamper or modify? Let alone, make it just so easy for everyone to skip steps and do repairs or procedures outside of specific instructions?

NO

They're not. They're going to protect themselves and their product by making sure it is designed a certain way. Their way. Not yours. Not mine. Their way. BMW's way.

The Warranty program is all done through BMW AG. BMWNA is pretty much a middle man in the whole process. When a repair is performed there are certain checks and balances that are performed to ensure that their 30-120,000K product has gone through proper checks and balances at a certified repair center.

In all honesty, I don't know how it all works. That is not my job. I have warranty clerks that process claims all day long and their job is to make sure that every warranty repair was performed with BMW parts, correct documentation and part replacement. Including proof that programming was performed on the vehicle.

My point: No one here, including myself knows exactly how it works so we cannot make assumptions and points fingers to dealerships, BMW NA or AG that thier program is bogus. It has a system because the system works. And without the warranty progam, BMW wouldn't be here.

ISTA/P is designed to have very specific and critical vehicle information that is programmed into the vehicles to make sure all the control modules are at the most updated software level. All of the modules in the vehicle have specific jobs and communicate with each other in digital code. If A module cannot communicate with B module, the message sent of the digital bus line does not where to go, does not deliver the message, therefore the action does not perform. You cannot open your window from your drivers switch without that signal going through 2-4 different modules before the window finally rolls down.

ISTA/P MUST MUST MUST have all module accounted for before programming and CANNOT be stopped once started. The car is in a critical state when it is being programmed. Try shutting off your computer in the middle of a file transfer or download. Or a reformat. You think that computer will work properly after that?

My point: Software data and electronics in these vehicles is how they operate. There is no changing it. This is where its all going and its not going to stop. Granted, there are glitches in the software and most of it is close to perfect. Updates are always coming out so fix minor glitches or increase speed and smoothness of the various feaures you see in the new models. If two different modules have different software versions, that HAVE to be updated in order to make sure they are all on the same level. If module A is communicating faster than module B can process, the outputs for model B may be effected and cause various complaints related to what jobs that module performs.

Google BMW MOST Bus, I'm done ranting here...


Are you saying, without a doubt, you are 100% certain this "programing" job can not be performed without a stock radio in place? There is absolutely no way a simple skip of the radio reprogram could allow them to complete this job?

And to be honest, I don't think I need to understand any of that to come to the conclusion that it is completely ridiculous a simple radio removal could render a 3 y/o $55k automobile unrepairable.

Without a doubt? No. There are a lot of things BMW does not tell us and there are even more things they can do outside of the dealership. But what they do tell us is "These are the parts, repair instructions and procedures to fix our cars". "Go fix it".

[STEALTHYZ4]

The day my dealer tells me i need to purchase a stock deck to repair my trans. ,is the day i tell them to get f*#k@d! This type of situation is absolutely ridiculous!

[slocar]

Reading this thread, I can't help but tremble in fear thinking about the day when I can afford one of these BMWs used and I actually end up buying one. :/

[MJFX328]

Couldnt you buy a used oe radio?

[redfoot]

Couldnt you buy a used oe radio?

According to other posts, no. Once a radio is married to a car, that is it.

:rofl
This whole situation is so ridiculous it can't be 100% accurate.
I have a strong suspicion someone at this dealership doesn't want to take the time to learn how to fix this car.

[modestgod]

well ill keep you updated!

ive called in a couple favors and gotten some more "high up" people involved so we shall see how it goes...

i wasnt interested in "rocking the boat" however now im interested to see how this all plays out... either way im not pissed off or anything im actually quite entertained!

ps i have no intention on purchasing a new oem deck, just so i can rip it out and put my far superior sound system back in once this has all been settled

however if there is no other way to resolve it i probably will do just that...

or trade the 335i in on that new 535i that ive been trying to convince myself i dont need... maybe its just the world telling me that im ready to buy a new one :)

[ECSTuning]

We carry new Genuine OEM BMW Radio's usually priced much better then your local dealer if you end up needing to go that direction.

Feel free to shoot us a PM if you have any questions we can get you pricing and availability asap!

Best,
Joe

[BradR127]

To the OP: if you don't trust this dealer, why don't you take (tow) your car to another one?

[tuffluck]

To the OP: if you don't trust this dealer, why don't you take (tow) your car to another one?

yeah that was my opinion. or at least a reputable mechanic.

i am a new bmw owner and you guys have confused the hell out of me with this thread. some people seem to think this is a bogus situation, while others laugh at the OP and say wow you're dumb for putting in an aftermarket radio.

it'd be really nice to know what you can and can't change in your car without causing problems. after all, it is your car. sure i understand putting new heads/cam in a car with a warranty and blowing pushrods is probably not going to be covered under warranty. but changing a radio and saying it's the fault of the transmission not being able to be replaced? i'm with the guy a while back that said his refrigerator broke in his house and in order to replace it he needs to paint his walls first.

any people that actually work for BMW have answers to these questions?

[modestgod]

does anyone trust a car dealership? i mean really.....

(yes certain people at the dealership i trust but not the dealership as a whole)


and as for people confused about why i have an aftermarket stereo... you would have to hear it to understand :P

[///mfizzle]

Hahaha so many people in this thread have no idea what there talking about.



READ BELLOW IF YOU WANT TO LEARN

BMW CAN NOT update this car until the OEM radio is back in it. Period.

Maybe a field service manger could. But no BMW dealership or any tech in that shop has the ability to. Plain and simple.


When you update a car, every module needs to respond and basicly say " I'm here ready to go" So when you take out one of those modules (The radio) it freaks out and basically says " Ok put the radio back in so we can move on". EVERYTHING in your car needs to be able to talk to each other. Until you put the radio back in, your not getting your car updated. The radio ( Unlike all the old timers in this thread think) actually needs to communicate with the transmission A LOT! So no you cannot just update the transmission. There is NO way at all.


And about all the people saying take a radio from another car in the shop or lot.

How would you like to spend $50k on a car. Have it in a dealership being worked on, and then when you get it back have bmw say " Oh by the way, we ripped your radio out to help fix another customers car. Hope you don't mind!"... I don't think that would work to well :shifty


Oh and you can't do that. Any of the bmw techs in here no why? :astromile

Because what if the car you took the radio from was a different I level?

Every module in the car has to be on the same I level.

So you take a radio from a car in the shop with a different I level. And stick it in this car with a different I level. Then you've messed everything up and you have to update both cars.

BMW has this thing called an I level. And every module in the car has to be on the same I level or they can't communicate. So then you have to update the parts to the proper I level and make sure EVERY module in the car is on the same level. So you can't just grab parts off random cars and have all these different I level parts in 1 car without updating them all.


Hope that helps :D

[RabidChimp]

^ STOP making sense it will confuse all of the shade tree mechanics on this forum.

[1sloE36]

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Warranty program is structered?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's Coding and Programming system (ISTA/P) works?

Does anyone here really know how BMW's MOST system operates?

Yep I do. That's why I'm keeping my mouth shut and just :rolleyes at all the dealer haters. It doesn't help to explain anything to someone not wanting to hear it. Been doing it for 5 years now and I'm just done.

[BoldUlysses]

This thread reinforces my pre-existing resolution to never buy an OBD2-and-up car (except for my minivan, natch). Talk about an electronic stranglehold on the car...and the average mechanic.

-Matt

[RabidChimp]

Yep I do. That's why I'm keeping my mouth shut and just :rolleyes at all the dealer haters. It doesn't help to explain anything to someone not wanting to hear it. Been doing it for 5 years now and I'm just done.

You need to go to a dealer who appreciates your talents.

[nickdrivesm3]

Yep I do. That's why I'm keeping my mouth shut and just :rolleyes at all the dealer haters. It doesn't help to explain anything to someone not wanting to hear it. Been doing it for 5 years now and I'm just done.

I'm with you bro, I've become more of a forum lurker over the years because I don't have the time and patience to type out what I'm thinking.

[BradR127]

yeah that was my opinion. or at least a reputable mechanic.


If it's something covered under warranty, then an independent mechanic certainly wouldn't do it for free.

But, of course, if it ends up being that buying a new deck for $1500 is the only option at the dealer and the indy can do it for less, then it might be worth it.

[1sloE36]

You need to go to a dealer who appreciates your talents.

Yeah I know, I'm working on that. Thank you for the encouraging words.


I'm with you bro, I've become more of a forum lurker over the years because I don't have the time and patience to type out what I'm thinking.

Exactly.

In any event, good luck OP. Contrary to what some say don't go in all huffy and puffy. Keep a level head and I'm sure you'll be able to come to a fair conclusion.

[tuffluck]

If it's something covered under warranty, then an independent mechanic certainly wouldn't do it for free.

But, of course, if it ends up being that buying a new deck for $1500 is the only option at the dealer and the indy can do it for less, then it might be worth it.

no, i just meant to have a reputable mechanic look at it and estimate the work. don't say anything about the radio at all, and see if he says he needs the stock radio.

[stanley]

Just finished reading this post, at times I cried and laughed at the same time. Being a shopeforman for 38 year(BMW) Let me try to explain what the dealership is trying to tell you. The car comes from the factory with what is called a vehicle order( which is a # code for all the modules in the car and yes the radio is one. When you program, code or update the car it looks for all modules in the vehicle order. It not there job to take one out of part and poss. lose the radio itself. As for BMW, we are not the only car maker that have this. Sorry for your problem but lets hope it gets fixed.

[modestgod]

Yeah I know, I'm working on that. Thank you for the encouraging words.



Exactly.

In any event, good luck OP. Contrary to what some say don't go in all huffy and puffy. Keep a level head and I'm sure you'll be able to come to a fair conclusion.


i dont get huffy and puffy... lifes to short!

i know its not the dealers fault and i know its my fault for the radio issue! we will see where it goes anywho how

[summ99]

The car comes from the factory with what is called a vehicle order( which is a # code for all the modules in the car and yes the radio is one. When you program, code or update the car it looks for all modules in the vehicle order. It not there job to take one out of part and poss. lose the radio itself. As for BMW, we are not the only car maker that have this. Sorry for your problem but lets hope it gets fixed.

Ok BMW technicians... so every BMW car comes from the factory order code, is this for the recent newer car or what?

Also based on the above statement.. no one can change to a better radio?(now that we know.. save the old deck) and besides what other modules cannot be changed?

A poster commented in his thread of the many OEM radios on sales in forums and in Ebay, how do you explain that?; that they are lucky that their transmission is not faulty hence they do not need their old radio to get the tranny fix !!!

There ought to be a way to bypass this...

and who says.. we dont learn new thing every day...

another thing, from what I have read in this forum and others.. BMW 335 seems to have a lot of issue..HPFP, turbo etc etc...now tranny....am i wrong in what I had read ??

[HardWorkandRest]

So you got on here to go headhunting for BMW, and realized you were the beast in the situation by not reading the owners manual as well as losing your $1500 piece of OEM equipment? Completely logical.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/06-09-BMW-E60-E63-E64-M5-M6-Instrument-Speedo-Cluster-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a5c7df92dQQitemZ25065 9862829QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5335818596&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-53200-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5335818596%26amp%3Btoolid%3D10001 %26amp%3Bmpre%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%25 2Febaymotors%252F06-09-BMW-E60-E63-E64-M5-M6-Instrument-Speedo-Cluster-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a5c7df92dQQitemZ25065 9862829QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries)
IE: E60 M5 Kombi. A BMW owner has 50,000 miles on his E60 535i. He decides he wants to get the M5 cluster for the bling factor. He buys it, and it doesn't work. A, because it's not programmed/coded to the vehicle. B, because the mileage of the vehicle is higher than the mileage of the gauge cluster. Yes, you could buy this. It does function completely, on the vehicle it came from. He's upset, mad at Ebay, mad at the seller, mad at BMW. But did he take the time to educate himself? Or did he just buy a $425 paperweight for his desk? Either way, this issue is truly the OP's fault.

[BradR127]

So you got on here to go headhunting for BMW, and realized you were the beast in the situation by not reading the owners manual as well as losing your $1500 piece of OEM equipment? Completely logical.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/06-09-BMW-E60-E63-E64-M5-M6-Instrument-Speedo-Cluster-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a5c7df92dQQitemZ25065 9862829QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5335818596&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-53200-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5335818596%26amp%3Btoolid%3D10001 %26amp%3Bmpre%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com% 252Frover%252F1%252F711-53200-19255-0%252F1%253Fcampid%253D5335818596%2526amp%253Btool id%253D10001%2526amp%253Bmpre%253Dhttp%25253A%2525 2F%25252Fcgi.ebay.com%25252Febaymotors%25252F06-09-BMW-E60-E63-E64-M5-M6-Instrument-Speedo-Cluster-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a5c7df92dQQitemZ25065 9862829QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries)
IE: E60 M5 Kombi. A BMW owner has 50,000 miles on his E60 535i. He decides he wants to get the M5 cluster for the bling factor. He buys it, and it doesn't work. A, because it's not programmed/coded to the vehicle. B, because the mileage of the vehicle is higher than the mileage of the gauge cluster. Yes, you could buy this. It does function completely, on the vehicle it came from. He's upset, mad at Ebay, mad at the seller, mad at BMW. But did he take the time to educate himself? Or did he just buy a $425 paperweight for his desk? Either way, this issue is truly the OP's fault.

Link doesn't work. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif

[montaillou]

READ BELLOW IF YOU WANT TO LEARN


It's fine if you want to impress us all with your vast and superior knowledge, but maybe use a spell checker.


The radio actually needs to communicate with the transmission A LOT!

What do they talk about?

[tuffluck]

i wish the OP would just call half a dozen BMW dealerships around the state, country, whatever. see what the consensus is with them.

"yeah i have such and such transmission problem. my dealership here tells me they can't fix it because the radio is not in the car. is that true?"

let's get to the bottom of this...:redspot

[bowmang]

i wish the OP would just call half a dozen BMW dealerships around the state, country, whatever. see what the consensus is with them.

"yeah i have such and such transmission problem. my dealership here tells me they can't fix it because the radio is not in the car. is that true?"

let's get to the bottom of this...:redspot

there have been a good number of BMW techs in this thread telling him it's true..

i don't think the issue is whether or not it's true that the part is needed... it's just that some people don't seem to agree with BMWs engineers.

[john bono]

The radio actually needs to communicate with the transmission A LOT!

What do they talk about?

That is the point of this thread. Exactly why does the car need the radio in order to update the transmission? What sort of imbecile designs a car so that the radio is absolutely required for the car to function? Why couldn't a single solitary person at BMW come with the idea that golly gee, someone somewhere might actually install a non-bmw radio?

Why is the process of updating the software so fragile that if the radio isn't present, the computer barfs a lung at the mere prospect that the radio is missing?!?

The techs think that the customers are off their rocker for expecting that a car would function without a radio.

The customers think that if, as BMW claims, their cars are the product of superior German engineering, that someone, somewhere, might have the foresight to realize that it is commonplace for people to replace the radio with an aftermarket unit, and not couple it so tightly to the rest of the vehicle that the lack of that radio renders the car into lawn furniture.

I only shudder to think what might happen if some unfortunate soul changes the cupholders on the new M3.

[Placey]

LMAO... SERIOUSLY.... THIS IS HILARIOUS.... THE OP OBVIOUSLY UNDERSTANDS AT THIS POINT THAT HE NEEDS THE RADIO.....

Anyone replying to this saying that the dealer is wrong, should really read through the 3 pages and see how many Reputable members/technicians/foremans/engineers have replied and stated the SAME THING! He needs the radio....

[Toby B]

no... the radio doesn't communicate with the transmission module, but when they hook up the programming tool, it will run a "measures check".. this basically checks the entire vehicle to see if everything is up to date, and if it isn't... then it updates it. if you don't have the stock (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20004576#) component in there, then it doesn't see it.. and says "before programming, please replace the radio with part number xxxxxxx" and won't go further.Sounds like a software 'feature' based on that description!

Also sounds like time to go trolling on C-list and epay for a deck that
will work, and end up sadder but wiser.
To me, having owned cars for 25 years, it seems nuts.

But I'm just one schmuck who likes older cars anyhow.

And thought computers lost their cool factor when IBM
released the PC with some silly kluge of an OS...

hee

t


The radio actually needs to communicate with the transmission A LOT!

oh, that... hee... omg... hee... Really? Might explain why new cars are so... hee hee... heavy.

'Dude just put Zep in the CD tray- lock out 2nd and 3rd gears, and go to soft shift program 23a.3'

hee

t

[1sloE36]

Because the engineers were all drunk when they designed it.

Or

Read what has already been posted. Simple way to think about it. Everything communicates with everything in the car. When you replace something that needs to be programed it makes sure everything is updated and on the same page. If there is a break in the line of communication it will not continue. This could be the reason BMW states many times, do not replace anything except with OEM parts.

This is not new. Think back the E30, now think bright orange sticker. Here is a visual for everyone.

*Local pub after a long days work, all the electrical compontents of the car are hanging out*

IHKA- Man sure was a rough day! How are all you guys doing?

GM-Great! Pretty slow day for me.

Window Motor- Ehh, I hate fall. Owner can't make up his mind.

Transmission- I hate being an automatic.

Instrument Cluster- I'm the shit and I love myself.

CAS- I'm also awesome. Hey where is radio?

SONY MOTHER F'N EXPLODE IN THE HOUSE- YOOOO WHAT UP GANGGG? I
DOPPED SOME SICK BUMPIN BEATS BACK THERE, YA HEARD????

See the difference? No wonder the car won't work.


If you changed the cupholders in the new M3 it implodes. Hey if you just change the radio in it though it just doesn't work when an update is needed. Ain't so bad after all huh?

[The HACK]

I'm not a BMW engineer nor a BMW mechanic. Heck I'm not a mechanic. And even I understand most of what the trained mechanics are telling you guys here.

The radio is not required for the transmission to work. The radio is REQUIRED for the computer to CODE the repaired transmission because the coding machine or whatever it is must have all factory modules in place in order to proceed, because the computer scans all the modules and they all must be present and synchronized to a certain "software" level, for whatever purpose it may serve? Therefore the coding computer, sensing the radio module is missing, refuses to proceed with coding the transmission.

Is that so hard to understand, or are people really THIS stupid? :dunno

On a side note, I think someone mentioned that engineers from Woodcliff (I assume the NJ headquarters) may be able to remotely by-pass the requirement to need to synchronize the "levels" on all the modules and code the transmission individually. If I was the OP I'd talk to the shop foreman about this possibility.

[redfoot]

LMAO... SERIOUSLY.... THIS IS HILARIOUS.... THE OP OBVIOUSLY UNDERSTANDS AT THIS POINT THAT HE NEEDS THE RADIO.....

Anyone replying to this saying that the dealer is wrong, should really read through the 3 pages and see how many Reputable members/technicians/foremans/engineers have replied and stated the SAME THING! He needs the radio....

Bimmerforums service tech #1 admitting he is not postive that a new radio NEEDS to be installed:

Without a doubt? No. There are a lot of things BMW does not tell us and there are even more things they can do outside of the dealership. But what they do tell us is "These are the parts, repair instructions and procedures to fix our cars". "Go fix it".

Even though he contradicts his own bolded statement in the next sentence, BMW parts guy #2 even states he is not sure:

]

BMW CAN NOT update this car until the OEM radio is back in it. Period.

Maybe a field service manger could. But no BMW dealership or any tech in that shop has the ability to. Plain and simple.

[MrSaikou]

On a side note, I think someone mentioned that engineers from Woodcliff (I assume the NJ headquarters) may be able to remotely by-pass the requirement to need to synchronize the "levels" on all the modules and code the transmission individually. If I was the OP I'd talk to the shop foreman about this possibility.


There it is. The possibility exists. I have heard that this has been done on other brands so let's cross our fingers.

I hate that some people are cheering that this guy is screwed.

[BoldUlysses]

That is the point of this thread. Exactly why does the car need the radio in order to update the transmission? What sort of imbecile designs a car so that the radio is absolutely required for the car to function? Why couldn't a single solitary person at BMW come with the idea that golly gee, someone somewhere might actually install a non-bmw radio?

Why is the process of updating the software so fragile that if the radio isn't present, the computer barfs a lung at the mere prospect that the radio is missing?!?

The techs think that the customers are off their rocker for expecting that a car would function without a radio.

The customers think that if, as BMW claims, their cars are the product of superior German engineering, that someone, somewhere, might have the foresight to realize that it is commonplace for people to replace the radio with an aftermarket unit, and not couple it so tightly to the rest of the vehicle that the lack of that radio renders the car into lawn furniture.

I only shudder to think what might happen if some unfortunate soul changes the cupholders on the new M3.

Exactly. That's what all the "trained techs" are missing on this thread. We understand you're eager to share your knowledge and expertise of the BMW warranty system and vehicle electronics; it doesn't change the fact that the way BMW designed the car was fundamentally stupid. Dumb. Foolish. As in "not smart."


Because the engineers were all drunk when they designed it.

Or

Read what has already been posted. Simple way to think about it. Everything communicates with everything in the car. When you replace something that needs to be programed it makes sure everything is updated and on the same page. If there is a break in the line of communication it will not continue. This could be the reason BMW states many times, do not replace anything except with OEM parts.

This is not new. Think back the E30, now think bright orange sticker. Here is a visual for everyone.

*Local pub after a long days work, all the electrical compontents of the car are hanging out*

IHKA- Man sure was a rough day! How are all you guys doing?

GM-Great! Pretty slow day for me.

Window Motor- Ehh, I hate fall. Owner can't make up his mind.

Transmission- I hate being an automatic.

Instrument Cluster- I'm the shit and I love myself.

CAS- I'm also awesome. Hey where is radio?

SONY MOTHER F'N EXPLODE IN THE HOUSE- YOOOO WHAT UP GANGGG? I
DOPPED SOME SICK BUMPIN BEATS BACK THERE, YA HEARD????

See the difference? No wonder the car won't work.


If you changed the cupholders in the new M3 it implodes. Hey if you just change the radio in it though it just doesn't work when an update is needed. Ain't so bad after all huh?

:lol

-Matt

[kornkid8600]

Stupid system and a DIRTY way for BMW to make more money. And to think, if he had a manual transmission there wouldn't even need to be an update for it to work.

[vertbmw]

Ok guys we know that the radio has to be in place so that the general electronic module can see and talk to it. A few of us are asking why was it designed this way? Can the op get a used radio and have it updated to work with his car or is it forever linked to another car? I am not trying to ba an a hole I just want understand how the system works. A freind has a volvo and the gem died when the gem was replaced 25 of the other modules were linked to the old gem and would not talk to the new one and had to be replaced. Can this type of thing happen with bmw?

[nickdrivesm3]

Love this thread. Everyone around the shop is getting a laugh...

[Draw415]

I actually find it very refreshing that so many techs are standing up for their employer. Most of us are unhappy and dissatisfied with our jobs and would be quick to jump on the bash wagon. I believe that what they are saying is true, but I still think the situation is CRAP! But in the end, it is what it is and it ain't what it ain't.


Love this thread. Everyone around the shop is getting a laugh...

Are all BMW techs so arrogant that you can't even fathom why this would be upsetting to someone? It's one thing that the transmission can't be updated without the OEM stereo, but it's another thing that the cost to replace that stereo is $1,500. It's a crappy stereo, come on. You can't appreciate where us inferior, non BMW mechanics, who pretty much pay your salaries are coming from?

[1sloE36]

Love this thread. Everyone around the shop is getting a laugh...

Same.

But wait. You're just a sadistic asshole stealing money, from warranty mind you :rofl, enforcing BMW's procedures! I'm sure you love having your bay occupied by a car getting updated while you get showered in gold from your dealership.

As said before. It is what it is. We explained it is that way throughout this thread. It sucks, sorry. Funny how the OP is cool the whole time but everyone else jumps on the train bashing dealership.

[redfoot]

Love this thread. Everyone around the shop is getting a laugh...

Is it an uncomfortable laugh because not one tech can say for sure if this car can be repaired without a new OEM radio?

1 million internet points to the any tech who takes the initiative to actually research this subject and ask someone in the know, instead of standing on a soapbox and preaching to the general public how uninformed they are about these cars.

:rolleyes

Now I have to know.

[Broox]

Are all BMW techs so arrogant that you can't even fathom why this would be upsetting to someone?
I dont think that's what they're laughing at. I believe they're laughing at BMWs poor engineering and afterthought. BMW does NOT design their cars to work with ANY aftermarket products.

I learned from the very early days of STEP (BMW tech education program) not to ask BMW "why?" because honestly, it's tiring. BMW's engineering logic is mind boggling.

Just for one example, there is a cover that goes on the bottom of an E60. BMW states that oil services should be performed with the engine at operating temperature. However, if you do this (or dont modify the cover) with any I6, you will spend the next hour or so cleaning oil off the cover because the oil will completely overshoot the hole it's supposed to come out of, dumping on TOP of the cover. Just another one of those "WTF BMW!?" moments...

I could go on and on about this but...I digress.


Is it an uncomfortable laugh because not one tech can say for sure if this car can be repaired without a new OEM radio
The transmission needs to be programmed. BMW programming equipment cannot program just ONE module. The software will look for the OEM radio, and when it doesn't see it, it will not let you proceed.

[kornkid8600]

The logic behind not wanting aftermarket equipment on the car is so they can make more money. Plain and simple. There is no other reason to have such a high level of integration between a RADIO and the rest of the car being there to update software.

People replace headunits all the time with aftermarket ones. Seriously, who is going to hang on to their stock headunit? It's smarter to sell it. But now BMW has fucked it up, and I'm sure other car companies are doing it too. To top it off, they are taking advantage of OP by asking for $1500 for a shit headunit.

[Broox]

This is true. However, they sell cars to people with deep pockets. The fact is, even if it screws people who will own the cars in the distant future, most of the people who buy new cars wont think twice about throwing another $1500 @ a head unit.

Do they do it to make more money? yeah, and...it works...

[///mfizzle]

Love this thread. Everyone around the shop is getting a laugh...

Same here. I just showed the techs. There all on the floor. This thread and all the people who think they know everything brings the LOLZ. If you guys only knew :rofl2



The logic behind not wanting aftermarket equipment on the car is so they can make more money. Plain and simple. There is no other reason to have such a high level of integration between a RADIO and the rest of the car being there to update software.

People replace headunits all the time with aftermarket ones. Seriously, who is going to hang on to their stock headunit? It's smarter to sell it. But now BMW has fucked it up, and I'm sure other car companies are doing it too. To top it off, they are taking advantage of OP by asking for $1500 for a shit headunit.

Wow.... Just wow. You have no idea how many guys are laughing at your comment.

Ok he has an 07 335i.

Now lets think for a second.... Why does his radio have to communicate with the transmission? Common I know you can do it. What does his OEM radio have to do, that no other aftermarket radio can do?

100000 Internets to whoever can think of it :eek3


There it is. The possibility exists. I have heard that this has been done on other brands so let's cross our fingers.

I hate that some people are cheering that this guy is screwed.

Lol this will never happen. Don't get your hopes up! Dude lost his radio and now he has to pay for a new one. Pretty simple.

[STEALTHYZ4]

realBMWparts,i am not a tech,so my guess would be that the oem radio display would be part of the I-DRIVE system and the oem radio would contain the I-DRIVE system display port. I hope that makes sense to the true techs that are laughing in here ,also my observation is that the oem radio has more functions than just being a radio.

[kornkid8600]

realBMWparts,i am not a tech,so my guess would be that the oem radio display would be part of the I-DRIVE system and the oem radio would contain the I-DRIVE system display port. I hope that makes sense to the true techs that are laughing in here ,also my observation is that the oem radio has more functions than just being a radio.

Except iDrive is still optional on the 3 series.




Wow.... Just wow. You have no idea how many guys are laughing at your comment.

Ok he has an 07 335i.

Now lets think for a second.... Why does his radio have to communicate with the transmission? Common I know you can do it. What does his OEM radio have to do, that no other aftermarket radio can do?

100000 Internets to whoever can think of it :eek3


Does it communicate with the transmission? Probably not. Does it check if everything is there? It appears so. Why? Because BMW wants full control of what is installed in their cars. It's as simple as that unless you have a different explanation.

If the car was a manual it would still need the OEM radio if BMW is saying you need the integration there to make any update work, but it wouldn't be communicating with the transmission.

BMW is just putting on a tight control on their cars. Plain and simple, and probably at the cost of many customers that won't return.

[modestgod]

This is true. However, they sell cars to people with deep pockets. The fact is, even if it screws people who will own the cars in the distant future, most of the people who buy new cars wont think twice about throwing another $1500 @ a head unit.

Do they do it to make more money? yeah, and...it works...


im gonna let you in on a little secret... perhaps the pockets may be deeper, however people dont get to have deep pockets from frivolously throwing money away!


and ps as an update... my wife found my oem deck tonight! i guess she gets the kudo points!

and a new pair of shoes, earrings, etc.... or whatever else floats her boat!

either way thank you for all the insight from everyone!

after this job is done im putting the oem deck in the safe!

and ill take pictures of the new stereo when its done being designed and put in... either way im going to have to make it extra loud this time :buttrock

[Davidson BMW]

The logic behind not wanting aftermarket equipment on the car is so they can make more money. Plain and simple. There is no other reason to have such a high level of integration between a RADIO and the rest of the car being there to update software.

People replace headunits all the time with aftermarket ones. Seriously, who is going to hang on to their stock headunit? It's smarter to sell it. But now BMW has fucked it up, and I'm sure other car companies are doing it too. To top it off, they are taking advantage of OP by asking for $1500 for a shit headunit.

It could be part of this, but it could also be that we are sue happy litigious society. Most shops won't use your parts that you bring in for a repair job. It could be argued that they do that to mark-up the price and make a profit. It could also be argued that if something goes wrong, they don't want to be blamed from someone who bought a cheap ass chinese part from China. I have to side with the shops on this one, as I learned one of my "friends" is a cheap ass con artist--who knew he was buying defective shocks off e-bay and then returned them for new ones through warranty. :shifty

I've also been to a shop that if you bring new brake pads that are the equivalent or better than what they use, they will install them.




realBMWparts,i am not a tech,so my guess would be that the oem radio display would be part of the I-DRIVE system and the oem radio would contain the I-DRIVE system display port. I hope that makes sense to the true techs that are laughing in here ,also my observation is that the oem radio has more functions than just being a radio.

It could be that they are all standard (why build something different for all cars), and that the basics guts of the component are the same, even though there isn't a display on the radio for the lower models of the car, the basic components are there.

I think its ridiculous that you can't program a transmission without the radio. However, I am not surprised. On the 1995 mustang that is my hobby car, the programming is ridiculous, and that was almost 15 years ago. So I can see how it could be this way.

Oh, on that car you can 'flash' the computer--but thats a once time deal and if you do anything else to the car, or have to re-program, you would need a new computer. Again, that was 15 years ago and on a Ford. So I can only imagine what Mercedes or BMW would require today.

.

[samger2]

I don't understand why everyone is so down on a company for creating a product that is proprietary to using their own stuff to make it work. Lots of companies do this...on a lower level though...think of all the wheels you purchase that won't accept a BMW centercap...why? Because they're proud of their OWN name, not someone elses! I just don't get why people think that a company should build a car with the intention of changing some of the key components to someone else's aftermarket product.

[tuffluck]

so dumb question (or is it), what if you put an aftermarket clutch in your car? will the radio stop working? :help

[john bono]

Except iDrive is still optional on the 3 series.



Does it communicate with the transmission? Probably not. Does it check if everything is there? It appears so. Why? Because BMW wants full control of what is installed in their cars. It's as simple as that unless you have a different explanation.



Great. Steve Jobs' clone is a BMW engineer.

[robmpulse]

The logic behind not wanting aftermarket equipment on the car is so they can make more money. Plain and simple. There is no other reason to have such a high level of integration between a RADIO and the rest of the car being there to update software.

People replace headunits all the time with aftermarket ones. Seriously, who is going to hang on to their stock headunit? It's smarter to sell it. But now BMW has fucked it up, and I'm sure other car companies are doing it too. To top it off, they are taking advantage of OP by asking for $1500 for a shit headunit.

Okay, there are tons of posts in this thread I could comment on, but with this one, I can make a comment to illustrate a point. That will only show (just like a lot of other posts in this thread) just how much you people do not know or understand about how all this works.

No, people do not replace their head unit with an aftermarket one "all the time". They used to, when factory stereo's only played music and were generally speaking, absolutely terrible. Especially in the #36 days (which I see you are listed as being the owner of.... and you do realize the immense different between and E36 and the cars that are in production now, right?)The percentage of people that actually care to put an aftermarket radio in their 40 - 100k car is VERY minute. So much so, that it is more beneficial to the other 99% of their customer base to design a computer system that functions very well and is seamlessly integrated with the vehicle to provide the best over all driving experience. Not to design a radio that is not seamlessly integrated and has minimal features just so a VERY FEW can replace it later down the road.

In addition.... there are TONS of supplemental options available for the customer to upgrade their stereo, all while keeping the stock head unit in place. However, these tend to be more costly than just using a cheap plastic adapter plate and an aftermarket head unit. Saving money here, will in turn cost you money down the road. This situation particularly.

For those small minded people.... BMW has designed something to make 99% of their customer happy, in turn pissing off 1%. Any company that does not use the same business model here to conduct their business, will not be a profit making company.

In addition, BMW does design their cars to work with 3rd party parts in many situations. Blue tooth being one of them in addition to the smart phone adapter bases and plug ins.

AND NO MATTER WHAT.... the bottom line is that things were this way BEFORE the OP purchased their vehicle. This is not the first time this has happened, it will not be the last, and this damn sure will easily found doing a simple google search.

I used this following quote in a different thread recently, however, it applies in this situation as well.....


What bottles my mind is that people will hit the internet and do all their research when it comes time to buy a set of tires for $1k - $2k bucks..... but they did NO research before making a 50-60k purchase of the car itself.

[SilverBeam]

Sounds like a lot of people here need to apply to be BMW engineers because obviously they can design an electrical system better than they can.

[BoldUlysses]

Sounds like a lot of people here need to apply to be BMW engineers because obviously they can design an electrical system better than they can.

That's like saying we have to be cooks to appreciate a meal or stylists to be able to tell an attractive car from an ugly one. Don't have to be an engineer to recognize an inelegant solution to a set of requirements, and this most definitely is one.

-Matt

[robmpulse]

That's like saying we have to be cooks to appreciate a meal or stylists to be able to tell an attractive car from an ugly one. Don't have to be an engineer to recognize an inelegant solution to a set of requirements, and this most definitely is one.

-Matt

I guess you missed my post. Allow me to re post it for you. If you still do not understand, then just admit you do not understand and stop hating on something you can not fathom, please.


Okay, there are tons of posts in this thread I could comment on, but with this one, I can make a comment to illustrate a point. That will only show (just like a lot of other posts in this thread) just how much you people do not know or understand about how all this works.

No, people do not replace their head unit with an aftermarket one "all the time". They used to, when factory stereo's only played music and were generally speaking, absolutely terrible. Especially in the #36 days (which I see you are listed as being the owner of.... and you do realize the immense different between and E36 and the cars that are in production now, right?)The percentage of people that actually care to put an aftermarket radio in their 40 - 100k car is VERY minute. So much so, that it is more beneficial to the other 99% of their customer base to design a computer system that functions very well and is seamlessly integrated with the vehicle to provide the best over all driving experience. Not to design a radio that is not seamlessly integrated and has minimal features just so a VERY FEW can replace it later down the road.

In addition.... there are TONS of supplemental options available for the customer to upgrade their stereo, all while keeping the stock head unit in place. However, these tend to be more costly than just using a cheap plastic adapter plate and an aftermarket head unit. Saving money here, will in turn cost you money down the road. This situation particularly.

For those small minded people.... BMW has designed something to make 99% of their customer happy, in turn pissing off 1%. Any company that does not use the same business model here to conduct their business, will not be a profit making company.

In addition, BMW does design their cars to work with 3rd party parts in many situations. Blue tooth being one of them in addition to the smart phone adapter bases and plug ins.

AND NO MATTER WHAT.... the bottom line is that things were this way BEFORE the OP purchased their vehicle. This is not the first time this has happened, it will not be the last, and this damn sure will easily found doing a simple google search.

[montaillou]

I guess you missed my post. Allow me to re post it for you. If you still do not understand, then just admit you do not understand and stop hating on something you can not fathom, please.

So, how long is it before BMW (and others) make their wheels and tires this way? After all, how many general consumers go to an aftermarket wheel and how does that make BMW money when they do? Why shouldn't they design their cars so that everything requires their own stamp?

Don't say that maybe BMW doesn't want to make tires, etc., they could just partner up with one company to do it.

Instead, of being willing to piss off that 1% why not design it so that the radio could be replaced, would that be so hard? It's not like they have to make room for the vacuum tubes...I suspect that the electronics involved would be pretty small, why not swing for the fences and go for that 100% satisfaction.

I can't wait for the thread 10 years from now about someone complaining that he has to buy a bmw light bulb for his headlights and the inevitable replies about how the OP is an idiot and all the techs laugh and jeer.

[BoldUlysses]

I guess you missed my post. Allow me to re post it for you. If you still do not understand, then just admit you do not understand and stop hating on something you can not fathom, please.

Not sure the reason for the hostility—we're discussing this on the level of our subjective impressions of BMW's engineering decisions. You clearly think they were justified; some of us in here think otherwise. Do I think I could design a better electrical system than BMW engineers? No; I'm a designer, not an electrical engineer. But I still think BMW could have found a better solution to the problem.

I realize the company may have had very good reasons for putting the car together the way they did (those you listed, among others), but does that mean their solution was the best one? Without knowing all the possible ways the car could have come together, we'll never know, so it's impossible to prove it one way or the other. So considering the possibility that there very well might have been a better way (in spite of the good reasons listed), berating people for saying BMW could have done it a better way is useless, since fundamentally they're just restating what is logically possible.


Don't say that maybe BMW doesn't want to make tires, etc., they could just partner up with one company to do it.

Heh—They kind of did. And it sucked and continues to suck. See the TRX debacle.

-Matt

[gricey]

Lmao at all the bmw techs on this thread who think they are so clever....meh you have to admit its a little silly when you cant have a aftermaret head unit coz the transmission software update wont work if you dont.

[kornkid8600]

Look, having the integration level THAT high on one plane is stupid. They should have separated the systems. Audio electronics and related components should run on their own system. And the transmission should run on its own. Not everything together. All they needed to do was update software for the transmission, they aren't making it easier for people to do what they want with the cars they build. It's simply overcomplicating things.

Sent from my box of pancake mix.

[1sloE36]

So, how long is it before BMW (and others) make their wheels and tires this way? After all, how many general consumers go to an aftermarket wheel and how does that make BMW money when they do? Why shouldn't they design their cars so that everything requires their own stamp?



Don't say that maybe BMW doesn't want to make tires, etc., they could just partner up with one company to do it.



Instead, of being willing to piss off that 1% why not design it so that the radio could be replaced, would that be so hard? It's not like they have to make room for the vacuum tubes...I suspect that the electronics involved would be pretty small, why not swing for the fences and go for that 100% satisfaction.


I can't wait for the thread 10 years from now about someone complaining that he has to buy a bmw light bulb for his headlights and the inevitable replies about how the OP is an idiot and all the techs laugh and jeer.

Me either. Would be crazy to see a car company reinvent the light bulb. Stop being ridiculous.

They already kind of do.

Nope, not one, five.

Impossible to please 100% of the consumers. Don't know how room for anything is relevant. What is so wrong with the OEM head unit?

Me either. Would be crazy to see a car company reinvent the light bulb. Stop being ridiculous.


Look, having the integration level THAT high on one plane is stupid. They should have separated the systems. Audio electronics and related components should run on their own system. And the transmission should run on its own. Not everything together. All they needed to do was update software for the transmission, they aren't making it easier for people to do what they want with the cars they build. It's simply overcomplicating things.

Sent from my box of pancake mix.

Exactly, they made it. They don't want people modding their cars. How is this new?? This had been around FOREVER. They just have the technology to enforce this notion. Sorry, it's true. It also caters to the majority of their consumer base.

I'm pissed BMW doesn't reinvent the E30. I'm pissed the cars are too heavy. The list goes on. I'm over it. Keep on buying the BMWs you like. Don't buy the ones you don't like. Or buy all those brand new cars that fit your criteria.

*OT* Your Vandy-like sign off isn't funny.

[325bob]

Sounds like a lot of people here need to apply to be BMW engineers because obviously they can design an electrical system better than they can.

Haven't had to correct any electrical shortcomings yet,but I did a better job on their shift knob than they did, now I have to fix their glove box door, too..

[Davidson BMW]

So, how long is it before BMW (and others) make their wheels and tires this way? After all, how many general consumers go to an aftermarket wheel and how does that make BMW money when they do? Why shouldn't they design their cars so that everything requires their own stamp?.

Actually, this is already happening if not already being implemented. Specifically for new stability control systems. See the connection? The computer that is assisting, especially with traction control while braking, has programmed into it the tire dimensions, and if you change that, you change the way the car will stop in an emergency situation--so you soon will not be able to swap out those wheels and/or tires for aftermarket.

Lovely, no? Its for your safety, though.



ESC is for inexperienced drivers or those that are not familiar with the performance envelope of their car. Incorporates yaw rate control (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/wiki/Attitude_control) into the anti-lock braking system (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system) (ABS). Yaw is a rotation around the vertical axis; i.e. spinning left or right. Anti-lock brakes enable ESC to brake individual wheels. Many ESC systems also incorporate a traction control system (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/wiki/Traction_control_system) (TCS or ASR), which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels and/or reduces excess engine power until control is regained. However, ESC achieves a different purpose than ABS or Traction Control.[22] (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/#cite_note-autogenerated3-21)
The ESC system uses several sensors (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/wiki/Sensor) to determine what the driver wants (input). Other sensors indicate the actual state of the vehicle (response). The control algorithm compares driver input to vehicle response and decides, when necessary, to apply brakes and/or reduce throttle by the amounts calculated through the state space (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/wiki/State_space_(controls)) (set of equations used to model the dynamics of the vehicle).[36] (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/#cite_note-35) The ESC controller can also receive data from and issue commands to other controllers on the vehicle such as an all wheel drive system or an active suspension system to improve vehicle stability and controllability.
The sensors used for ESC have to send data at all times in order to detect possible defects as soon as possible. They have to be resistant to possible forms of interference (rain, holes in the road, etc.). The most important sensors are....


.

[bowmang]

Not sure the reason for the hostility—we're discussing this on the level of our subjective impressions of BMW's engineering decisions. You clearly think they were justified; some of us in here think otherwise. Do I think I could design a better electrical system than BMW engineers? No; I'm a designer, not an electrical engineer. But I still think BMW could have found a better solution to the problem.

I realize the company may have had very good reasons for putting the car together the way they did (those you listed, among others), but does that mean their solution was the best one? Without knowing all the possible ways the car could have come together, we'll never know, so it's impossible to prove it one way or the other. So considering the possibility that there very well might have been a better way (in spite of the good reasons listed), berating people for saying BMW could have done it a better way is useless, since fundamentally they're just restating what is logically possible.



Heh—They kind of did. And it sucked and continues to suck. See the TRX debacle.

-Matt

if there was a better way to do it... then i invite you to tell the engineers what it is... i'll personally pass on the information for you.

you say that you aren't qualified to make those suggestions... then how are you quailifed to tell them it wasn't to best way to do it in order to accomplish what they wanted to?


Lmao at all the bmw techs on this thread who think they are so clever....meh you have to admit its a little silly when you cant have a aftermaret head unit coz the transmission software update wont work if you dont.

the need for the OEM radio has nothing to do with the transmission failure, or the transmission software update in particular... that just so happens to be the repair that the OP needs. the same would hold true if his instrument cluster had failed... would still need the radio.

[john bono]

Okay, there are tons of posts in this thread I could comment on, but with this one, I can make a comment to illustrate a point. That will only show (just like a lot of other posts in this thread) just how much you people do not know or understand about how all this works.

No, people do not replace their head unit with an aftermarket one "all the time". They used to, when factory stereo's only played music and were generally speaking, absolutely terrible. Especially in the #36 days (which I see you are listed as being the owner of.... and you do realize the immense different between and E36 and the cars that are in production now, right?)The percentage of people that actually care to put an aftermarket radio in their 40 - 100k car is VERY minute. So much so, that it is more beneficial to the other 99% of their customer base to design a computer system that functions very well and is seamlessly integrated with the vehicle to provide the best over all driving experience. Not to design a radio that is not seamlessly integrated and has minimal features just so a VERY FEW can replace it later down the road.

In addition.... there are TONS of supplemental options available for the customer to upgrade their stereo, all while keeping the stock head unit in place. However, these tend to be more costly than just using a cheap plastic adapter plate and an aftermarket head unit. Saving money here, will in turn cost you money down the road. This situation particularly.

For those small minded people.... BMW has designed something to make 99% of their customer happy, in turn pissing off 1%. Any company that does not use the same business model here to conduct their business, will not be a profit making company.

In addition, BMW does design their cars to work with 3rd party parts in many situations. Blue tooth being one of them in addition to the smart phone adapter bases and plug ins.

AND NO MATTER WHAT.... the bottom line is that things were this way BEFORE the OP purchased their vehicle. This is not the first time this has happened, it will not be the last, and this damn sure will easily found doing a simple google search.

I used this following quote in a different thread recently, however, it applies in this situation as well.....


That might be true, IF the only reason to use an aftermarket stereo is to upgrade from the OEM unit. What about when the OEM unit breaks? Who in their right mind would spend $1500 to replace a stereo when aftermarket head units cost under $1G installed, and has better sound and features? I've replaced two head units in two separate cars, not to upgrade, simply to have a functioning stereo. And even though I didn't go b@lls to the wall buying a stereo, they were still superior, by far, to any OEM unit I've listened to, including BMW's.



Ok. Let's posit the following question. The OEM stereo dies, has a hardware failure. Bad chip, broken trace on the circuit board, the owner spilled a mochachino on it, so that stereo is dead, dead, dead. He decides not to fix it(he listens to talk radio, and a $50 boombox from wally world is just fine for AM). A month later, he has a transmission issue that he has take to the dealer to fix. Does this mean now he has to shell out $1500 for that radio in addition to the transmission, simply so he can have a driveable car? How do you explain this to him?

[BoldUlysses]

if there was a better way to do it... then i invite you to tell the engineers what it is... i'll personally pass on the information for you.

you say that you aren't qualified to make those suggestions... then how are you quailifed to tell them it wasn't to best way to do it in order to accomplish what they wanted to?

You're missing the point. I'm not saying I know the "better way." I'm saying there could be a better way. Don't have to be an engineer to point out the logic of the situation.

Case in point: The recent iPod 4 antenna debacle. Apple could tell people all day long that it was the best design for the phone, that the antenna was the best solution their engineers and designers could come up with, and there are probably legions of Apple fanatics that believe them and back them up 100%—doesn't change the fact that it was a poor design decision. Don't have to be an "Apple-qualified tech" to figure that one out.

Companies full of trained engineers, even very competent ones, aren't infallible, and aren't immune to bad decision-making.

-Matt

[john bono]

Impossible to please 100% of the consumers. Don't know how room for anything is relevant. What is so wrong with the OEM head unit?


Aftermarket ones are better and cheaper. Price the GPS on your BMW. Then go to a high end car audio store(not best buy) and price an in car GPS there. My Kenwood head unit with ipod interface, bluetooth, and satellite was $450. The entire system, with 6 speaker interface, subwoofer, and amp, was $1900. The sound is clear, with strong lows, highs, and midrange. I've test driven a bunch of new cars in the past year, including BMWs, and none of them had an audio system within a country mile of what I bought as an aftermarket unit. I'm not an audiophile and the difference between an OEM system and a quality aftermarket system is amazing.

[g00dwagen]

Communication Area (well, we at Audi called it that) Network.

The dealer should remove the aftermarket radio & attempt to program/recode again. The aftermarket unit is probably (& inadvertently I might add) tapped into the High & low CAN buss network of the car, a seemingly handy source of +12v dc , but in reality, a multifrequency channel that transmits data throughout every control module, from the DME to the KOM and everything in between.

Reading some of the replies in this thread only makes me feel 10X better about leaving that incestuous cesspit of the dealer world.

I'm new here, but do not mind calling a spade a spade, and a douchebag a douchebag.

[gricey]

if there was a better way to do it... then i invite you to tell the engineers what it is... i'll personally pass on the information for you.

you say that you aren't qualified to make those suggestions... then how are you quailifed to tell them it wasn't to best way to do it in order to accomplish what they wanted to?



the need for the OEM radio has nothing to do with the transmission failure, or the transmission software update in particular... that just so happens to be the repair that the OP needs. the same would hold true if his instrument cluster had failed... would still need the radio.

Why does the radio need to be part of that system though?

[BoldUlysses]

Why does the radio need to be part of that system though?

That question was answered already by the "experts" here. Here's the Cliff's Notes: Because BMW said so. And we all know they had a good reason to do it that way. Questioning their reasoning is heresy. The end.

-Matt

[lokijibber]

I've greatly enjoyed reading this post, and that's mostly due to the fact that the OP was able to locate the OEM unit and did not have to spend $1500. I understand why the radio was needed, I don't like the fact but I understand it. Just another reason to ALWAYS keep original parts.

So does this issue only occur when attempting to "UPDATE" the systems/modules? Is this how people are able to strip these cars for track use without an issue?

[john bono]

Communication Area (well, we at Audi called it that) Network.

The dealer should remove the aftermarket radio & attempt to program/recode again. The aftermarket unit is probably (& inadvertently I might add) tapped into the High & low CAN buss network of the car, a seemingly handy source of +12v dc , but in reality, a multifrequency channel that transmits data throughout every control module, from the DME to the KOM and everything in between.

Reading some of the replies in this thread only makes me feel 10X better about leaving that incestuous cesspit of the dealer world.

I'm new here, but do not mind calling a spade a spade, and a douchebag a douchebag.

Now THAT makes some sense. The installer may have tapped into a communications bus instead of into a power line that gives 12v when running(like the cigarette lighter in my Taurus). The may both be a 12v current, but the bus is probably finicky about the sort of connections it has(extra capacitance, noise on the line, etc playing havoc with communications), while a 12v tap is simply that, a +12v line to a cigarette lighter, dome light, whatever.

If what you are describing works in the same manner in Audis as it does in BMWs, then the fix is relatively simple. Remove the aftermarket stereo, fix/cap any connections to verboten lines. Then reprogram the computer, reinstall the aftermarket stereo CORRECTLY, and the problem is fixed, probably permanently.

Of course, that's assuming they work in a similar fashion.


That question was answered already by the "experts" here. Here's the Cliff's Notes: Because BMW said so. And we all know they had a good reason to do it that way. Questioning their reasoning is heresy. The end.

-Matt

/thread

[bowmang]

Why does the radio need to be part of that system though?

i don't know how else to explain it. the radio is a computer module, part of the entire car. when the tool used to program the vehicle sees that one of the modules is missing (in this case, the radio) it says "alert... alert... something is missing, cannot proceed with programming" and you cannot go any further.


Now THAT makes some sense. The installer may have tapped into a communications bus instead of into a power line that gives 12v when running(like the cigarette lighter in my Taurus). The may both be a 12v current, but the bus is probably finicky about the sort of connections it has(extra capacitance, noise on the line, etc playing havoc with communications), while a 12v tap is simply that, a +12v line to a cigarette lighter, dome light, whatever.

If what you are describing works in the same manner in Audis as it does in BMWs, then the fix is relatively simple. Remove the aftermarket stereo, fix/cap any connections to verboten lines. Then reprogram the computer, reinstall the aftermarket stereo CORRECTLY, and the problem is fixed, probably permanently.

Of course, that's assuming they work in a similar fashion.



/thread

i kind of works that way... but in this case, it's bakwards.

the radio is on a sort of CAN system called the MOST bus (multimedia system transport) that all of the entertainment, and communication devices are on that they can talk to each other. this bus is a fiber optic network... so you can't exactly splice a power source into it. now.. like what you said, if there was a strange signal that was on a communication bus, the computer would see that, and tell you there's an error.. in this case, it is MISSING a signal from the radio, so it says there's a problem.

when you hook up any diagnostic equipment, or even wake the car up... the gateway module (acts as a communcation center for the particular bus) sends out a message... kind of like a roll call to all of the control units on that bus, when it doesn't get a response from the radio... it senses a problem and stops the process.

let's say you're a drill instructor in boot camp, and when this particular class got there, there was a private named BMW. all of the sudden, one morning three weeks in... you are doing roll call and all out "BMW!" and get no response... but there's some scraggly looking fellow named Alpine standing where BMW is supposed to be... you're going to see this as a problem, and not continue with the day until you account for BMW... that's what the diagnostic equipment is doing.

i hope this makes it a little more clear.


and.... it doesn't matter that the radio is on a different system that the transmission, but the diagnostic equipment looks for the entire vehicle, not just the transmission.

[g00dwagen]

so I just got back from the shop after a little experiment with an '05 545 & the GT1.

I removed the radio & pretended to encode a new abs control module. It was successful, but I'm unsure whether this particular car (E60) is most equipped. I performed 2 successful short tests with the radio in my hand.

O well. What do we in the aftermarket know anyway?

I'll call my friend at the dealer tomorrow & get the low down.

[bowmang]

so I just got back from the shop after a little experiment with an '05 545 & the GT1.

I removed the radio & pretended to encode a new abs control module. It was successful, but I'm unsure whether this particular car (E60) is most equipped. I performed 2 successful short tests with the radio in my hand.

O well. What do we in the aftermarket know anyway?

I'll call my friend at the dealer tomorrow & get the low down.


using a GT1 isn't the issue... using ISTA/P is... and i doubt you've got that in the aftermarket.

[modestgod]

I appologize to the forum for starting a shit storm LOL. When I brought the OEM deck to the dealer today they were happy and polite and my car will be done tommorow....

It truly is amazing at all the BMW haters on a forum about bmws and he only comment I have for them is it would be more convenient to my predicament if the OEM deck doesn't permanently "mate" to a car but I understand why it does for security purposes....

Either way I wasn't going to shell out 1500 and the point is mute because I now have my OEM deck.....

Now to my next BMW problem my stereo is to loud and breaks the actuator for the fuel tank door anyone know how that system works sh I can reinforce it from the volume and vibrations of the aftermarket stereo? Other than the obvious which is not to Have it so loud....

I appologize to the forum for starting a shit storm LOL. When I brought the OEM deck to the dealer today they were happy and polite and my car will be done tommorow....

It truly is amazing at all the BMW haters on a forum about bmws and he only comment I have for them is it would be more convenient to my predicament if the OEM deck doesn't permanently "mate" to a car but I understand why it does for security purposes....

Either way I wasn't going to shell out 1500 and the point is mute because I now have my OEM deck.....

Now to my next BMW problem my stereo is to loud and breaks the actuator for the fuel tank door anyone know how that system works sh I can reinforce it from the volume and vibrations of the aftermarket stereo? Other than the obvious which is not to Have it so loud....

[MJFX328]

wtf are you talking about

[g00dwagen]

Modest, good to know you found you factory radio. Now install it & STFU with your loud music so us old guys can get some sleep:)

Bowmang,

Therein lies the rub: We have access to the GT1 (now unsupported), & at best, Autologic. It's a freeze out. In ten years these cars will be considered "obsolete" at the dealer, the customers will be out in the cold too, & us indy guys will be lamenting the lost days of slack tube manometers for troubleshooting bad vent valves & wondering why in the hell BMW still uses a shitty traction strut system with 5 billion degrees of positive caster.

I feel like grandpa Simpson with his hogsheads per furlongs. Gimme points & condensers dammit! Re-jet that carb!

[bowmang]

Modest, good to know you found you factory radio. Now install it & STFU with your loud music so us old guys can get some sleep:)

Bowmang,

Therein lies the rub: We have access to the GT1 (now unsupported), & at best, Autologic. It's a freeze out. In ten years these cars will be considered "obsolete" at the dealer, the customers will be out in the cold too, & us indy guys will be lamenting the lost days of slack tube manometers for troubleshooting bad vent valves & wondering why in the hell BMW still uses a shitty traction strut system with 5 billion degrees of positive caster.

I feel like grandpa Simpson with his hogsheads per furlongs. Gimme points & condensers dammit! Re-jet that carb!


hahaha.. so true. when i went to tech school 4 years ago they spent two days teaching us how to rebuild carburators... i thought it was hilarious..... then i put one in my race car and have rebuilt it like 5 times :shifty

[gricey]

i don't know how else to explain it. the radio is a computer module, part of the entire car. when the tool used to program the vehicle sees that one of the modules is missing (in this case, the radio) it says "alert... alert... something is missing, cannot proceed with programming" and you cannot go any further.



i kind of works that way... but in this case, it's bakwards.

the radio is on a sort of CAN system called the MOST bus (multimedia system transport) that all of the entertainment, and communication devices are on that they can talk to each other. this bus is a fiber optic network... so you can't exactly splice a power source into it. now.. like what you said, if there was a strange signal that was on a communication bus, the computer would see that, and tell you there's an error.. in this case, it is MISSING a signal from the radio, so it says there's a problem.

when you hook up any diagnostic equipment, or even wake the car up... the gateway module (acts as a communcation center for the particular bus) sends out a message... kind of like a roll call to all of the control units on that bus, when it doesn't get a response from the radio... it senses a problem and stops the process.

let's say you're a drill instructor in boot camp, and when this particular class got there, there was a private named BMW. all of the sudden, one morning three weeks in... you are doing roll call and all out "BMW!" and get no response... but there's some scraggly looking fellow named Alpine standing where BMW is supposed to be... you're going to see this as a problem, and not continue with the day until you account for BMW... that's what the diagnostic equipment is doing.

i hope this makes it a little more clear.


and.... it doesn't matter that the radio is on a different system that the transmission, but the diagnostic equipment looks for the entire vehicle, not just the transmission.

I get that, but why does the radio need to be a module and be part of that system

Also what happens when you are out of warranty and the head unit goes bad.

Or someone steals it.

When you go to the dealer to get a software update you would then have to buy a new head unit

Thats asinine.

[Broox]

so dumb question (or is it), what if you put an aftermarket clutch in your car? will the radio stop working? :help
no, the manual transmission is about the only car that is vastly manually controlled. Only a few sensors mounted on it for speed, gear position, etc (unless you're talking about SMG). It doesn't need to be programmed and therefore your aftermarket radio will still work.

Just to clarify tho...the radio won't stop working either way. The transmission wont work properly unless you put the factory radio back in in order to reprogram the transmission.


but I'm unsure whether this particular car (E60) is most equipped.
It is

[john bono]

the radio is on a sort of CAN system called the MOST bus (multimedia system transport) that all of the entertainment, and communication devices are on that they can talk to each other. this bus is a fiber optic network... so you can't exactly splice a power source into it. now.. like what you said, if there was a strange signal that was on a communication bus, the computer would see that, and tell you there's an error.. in this case, it is MISSING a signal from the radio, so it says there's a problem.

when you hook up any diagnostic equipment, or even wake the car up... the gateway module (acts as a communcation center for the particular bus) sends out a message... kind of like a roll call to all of the control units on that bus, when it doesn't get a response from the radio... it senses a problem and stops the process.

let's say you're a drill instructor in boot camp, and when this particular class got there, there was a private named BMW. all of the sudden, one morning three weeks in... you are doing roll call and all out "BMW!" and get no response... but there's some scraggly looking fellow named Alpine standing where BMW is supposed to be... you're going to see this as a problem, and not continue with the day until you account for BMW... that's what the diagnostic equipment is doing.

i hope this makes it a little more clear.


and.... it doesn't matter that the radio is on a different system that the transmission, but the diagnostic equipment looks for the entire vehicle, not just the transmission.

This is what drives me nuts about this process. If the diagnostic equipment can't find the radio, why doesn't the computer simply flag it and move on to the next item? If the radio was not missing, but is simply dead, isn't it going to cause the same problem? What then?

[spoonerDee]

So I get why the issue came up, the computer needs to run its check list and make sure everything is there and functioning, much like your PC checks to make sure all components are working and the drivers are correct.

What I don't understand is why it was not designed so that while doing its check list when it comes to a component that has not effect on the actual function of the car i.e. driving it, why it can't simply recognize that the radio (a non integral component to the actual function of the car) isn't present and skip over it and continue with the parts that actually matter.

Engine, check
Tranny, check
Brakes, check
sensors, check

Radio, nope. Damn sorry your car wont drive because there is no radio. Buy a new radio or get a new car.

It just seems silly.

[Brashland]

Easy fix BMW - separate the radio from the check process. Have a different interface point than that.

[Nijapo]

Because the engineers were all drunk when they designed it.

Or

Read what has already been posted. Simple way to think about it. Everything communicates with everything in the car. When you replace something that needs to be programed it makes sure everything is updated and on the same page. If there is a break in the line of communication it will not continue. This could be the reason BMW states many times, do not replace anything except with OEM parts.

This is not new. Think back the E30, now think bright orange sticker. Here is a visual for everyone.

*Local pub after a long days work, all the electrical compontents of the car are hanging out*

IHKA- Man sure was a rough day! How are all you guys doing?

GM-Great! Pretty slow day for me.

Window Motor- Ehh, I hate fall. Owner can't make up his mind.

Transmission- I hate being an automatic.

Instrument Cluster- I'm the shit and I love myself.

CAS- I'm also awesome. Hey where is radio?

SONY MOTHER F'N EXPLODE IN THE HOUSE- YOOOO WHAT UP GANGGG? I
DOPPED SOME SICK BUMPIN BEATS BACK THERE, YA HEARD????

See the difference? No wonder the car won't work.


If you changed the cupholders in the new M3 it implodes. Hey if you just change the radio in it though it just doesn't work when an update is needed. Ain't so bad after all huh?

Hahahaha, great analogy!

[Technyque]

I think what alot of people don't think about is that when the German's build a car they're building it based upon performance...in other words, they don't care about drinking coffee when they drive, therefore the cupholders suck...their focus isn't on the stereo...therefore that may not be up to American standards....the areas that they focus on are of performance and handling...not of convenience and pleasure like coffee drinking and music listening.

There's a place for that...it's called Starbucks, not your car.

[slowww328]

let's say you're a drill instructor in boot camp, and when this particular class got there, there was a private named BMW. all of the sudden, one morning three weeks in... you are doing roll call and all out "BMW!" and get no response... but there's some scraggly looking fellow named Alpine standing where BMW is supposed to be... you're going to see this as a problem, and not continue with the day until you account for BMW... that's what the diagnostic equipment is doing.

I don't think anyone who has read this much of the thread needs this worthless analogy. That is, it's understood that the reason a radio is needed is so that the programming software sees that everything is stock.

The contention is that it's unnecessary, and it's just an excuse to sucker money out of customers. Why is the software designed to require a factory radio? The only answer anyone has given is that "this integrated electronics system helps 99% of customers." But realistically, having the radio integrated doesn't help a single solitary consumer - not even your average Joe BMW owner who doesn't care how bad the stock stereo is. To him, it wont seem any different than a radio from years past.

The reason the car was designed this way is to make sure that when your radio goes bad (ideally right when your warranty ends,) you're paying $1500 to buy it from BMW. If you can't see this, especially if you're a BMW tech, you're a moron. Apple has been doing this to the computer industry for years. By not allowing aftermarket parts, Apple can make inferior, proprietary parts which they expect to break, and then charge absurd amounts to replace them (with equally garbage parts) because consumers can't use aftermarket ones. BMW is following EXACTLY the same business model, and it only inhibits progress by putting a stranglehold on the people who truly bring about improvements in technology: those competing to be the best in the aftermarket scene.

Say you don't believe all that nonsense, and you think BMW just wants to integrate the system so it's easier to update and work on (or something, maybe to provide a better end-user experience :rolleyes) That still doesn't explain why a simple skip function hasn't been built into the dealer program, yet one is available to the BMW NA techs in NJ. Hell, I can go into the BIOS of my computer and tell it not to look for a CD drive, why can't the electronics system on an extremely expensive car do the same with a radio? Neither is needed for the computer or car to function.

So many BMW fanboys, and every bit as obnoxious Apple's.

[gerry_miranda]

Can you imagine troubleshooting this some time in the future...ooh my cars transmission isnt acting right...hmmm...oh I know its because the previous owner put his OE radio back when I bought it and it sometimes interfere with the bus communications....hmmmm

I think this might mean I'll keep my 97 M3 from now on...

[RabidChimp]

I realize everyone is entitled their own opinion but does anyone on this forum really think BMW gives a damn about your opinion on how they design and build their cars? The enthusiast owner makes up a very very very small market in terms of BMW total sales every year. Enthusiasts tend to be the second, third and fourth owners of a BMW and they tend not to go to dealers for repairs and parts unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. So why should BMW cater to your whims if you don't patronize dealers purchasing new cars and venture to the dealer for parts and service? BMWAG couldn't care less that you think not having a dipstick in a car is dumb, that runflat tires are awful or that you think the factory radio having a parasitic relationship with the EGS is an error in design. They will continue to build their cars how they feel that they should be made. Every car BMW produces is more complicated than the last iteration so if you think this situation with OPs radio and transmission is ridiculous just wait till the next generation 3 series comes out! BMW doesnt make cars for enthusiasts they make BMWs for people who want the inflated prestige of owning a BMW and perferably that they have nice sized wallets.

[slowww328]

I realize everyone is entitled their own opinion but does anyone on this forum really think BMW gives a damn about your opinion on how they design and build their cars? The enthusiast owner makes up a very very very small market in terms of BMW total sales every year. Enthusiasts tend to be the second, third and fourth owners of a BMW and they tend not to go to dealers for repairs and parts unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. So why should BMW cater to your whims if you don't patronize dealers purchasing new cars and venture to the dealer for parts and service? BMWAG couldn't care less that you think not having a dipstick in a car is dumb, that runflat tires are awful or that you think the factory radio having a parasitic relationship with the EGS is an error in design. They will continue to build their cars how they feel that they should be made. Every car BMW produces is more complicated than the last iteration so if you think this situation with OPs radio and transmission is ridiculous just wait till the next generation 3 series comes out! BMW doesnt make cars for enthusiasts they make BMWs for people who want the inflated prestige of owning a BMW and perferably that they have nice sized wallets.

Sure, but it's only enthusiasts who replace their radios? I don't think so. Someone earlier mentioned that he had replaced radios in multiples cars he had owned and not because he was an audiophile, but because they were broken. BMW cares enough about the aftermarket (and the money it's taking from them) to develop an expensive system to combat it. Designing a car with complete electronic integration can't be cheap, but it's an investment which will pay for itself many times over as customers fork over $1500 per radio (among other things,) instead of simply replacing broken ones with a cheap aftermarket unit.

[robmpulse]

Sure, but it's only enthusiasts who replace their radios? I don't think so.

My head hurts at this point.

no, he is not the ONLY one. But him, combimed with ALL the others.... is such a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY small percentage, that they lean more towards making the VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY large portion of their customer base happy..... and those do not replace their factory head unit.