Have to keep turning key to start!

[dtermined1]

I am having trouble starting my e36 now, and this is only after i ran out of gas. I put gas in the car and it took awhile to start, so i thought it may be a fuel pump. Went through the motions on the fuel pump only to find out it was good. After some starting fluid the car finally started, but ran really rough! Then i find that a hose was off under the intake, so i put it back on and it runs fine. Now when I go to start it, the first turn of the key it just does nothing, i have to keep turning the key to get it to start, like 10 times. I was thinking about a bad battery but it checks out fine running @ 14volts- 12.8volts not running. I don't know about a starter b/c the car started fine every time until this happened. I should say when i used the starting fluid there was a loud "POP" when it started and thats what blew the hose off under the intake. Think i used too much spray. I know you guys have a lot of experience on here, so any suggestions of what it could be???

also, when i run error code check it comes back air mass sensor 1215?? would that have anything to do w/ the starting issue??

[jsmn4vu]

Running a fuel pump dry can damage it, so even though it appears to be working, it might not be producing enough volume and/or pressure. Testing (for pressure and the volume of fuel it can deliver over a given period of time) or replacing it is the only way to be sure.

[maskellBYAH]

The key turning issue.. try jamming something small into the tiny hole right next to where you put the key into. and then turning the key.. if you really need to get somewhere, or feel like doing it for fun :D

Sounds like your ignition coil went up on you.. at a crappy time. You need to get a new one installed. Happened to me right after I did my motor swap. It's yet another somewhat common problem in the e36!!

[dtermined1]

jsmn4u--- running the fuel pump dry is what happened too, i believe thats why it took so long to get back going, but its runs fine now that it is primed and has fuel, its the starting issue like i said before that is the problem.

What is the little hole next to the ignition for?? I am going to try it and se what happens. Is there a way to test the ignition coil??

[Seeker]

....
also, when i run error code check it comes back air mass sensor 1215?? would that have anything to do w/ the starting issue??

that will make your car run like total crap if the MAF is not working right.

did you remove the MAF when you messed around with the starter fluid?

did you disconnect the connector?

did you put the MAF in BACKWARDS??!?!!! :eyecrazy (dont worry.. we've ALL done it one time or another, LOL) check for an arrow on the MAF to show direction of airflow.. if the arrow is pointing toward the intake, it's correct, if it's pointing towards the front of the car, you got it in backwards

[dtermined1]

yea i did take it off to spray, but i double checked and it is on correct. The car is running fine, its just that it will not turn over the first time i turn the key, i have to keep turning it on then off, on then off....... maybe 5-10 times then it turns over, starts and runs fine.

[Seeker]

so the starter isnt engaging when you first turn the key?

but once the starter engages and starts to turn the motor over.. it fires right up?

[dtermined1]

correct. The thing is i cant believe that the starter had just went bad the same time this happened. I think it has something to do with the loud pop that came after i sprayed the starter fluid, maybe a relay or something?, but idk. The noise was from me spraying a little too much so when it started it had some pressure, ive done that before on another car, but the pressure maybe could have done something?? It blew the hose off under the intake and i had to put that back on. ??? solenoid maybe?? I was hoping someone had experienced this problem before w/ their starter, but when i search i get nothing

[Seeker]

well.. it sounds like you need to do a little diagnosing then.


do you have an auto or a stick?

if an auto, then your car has a starter relay.. if manual, it doesnt.
usually it is NEVER the starter relay that's a starter problem.


it could be a faulty ignition switch.. it could be a dead spot inside the starter's windings/brushes.. it could be a bad connection on the solenoid...

got a electrical diagram for your car?

Go here to find yours

http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm


then you can trace down the wires, switches, starter, solenoid and relay if an auto (including the auto range switch) that all tie into your starter..
there's alot you can test in there with a simple voltmeter or test light to narrow down the possible problem prior to yanking out the starter.. which is a major PITA

GL

[jsmn4vu]

if an auto, then your car has a starter relay.. if manual, it doesnt.
Not sure where this notion got started, but it needs to get nipped in the bud. Both autos and manuals have starter relays.

[dtermined1]

so i hav not tested yet, but i wanted to throw in that when i sprayed the starter fluid in there and it made the loud "pop" noise, it knocked off the hose under the intake like i said before. Well i noticed that right under that hose that was knocked off, sits the starter solenoid- i think its the solenoid. So when it knocked the hose off, what could it have done to the solenoid?? All the wires are still tight, but i dont know, maybe someone on here will know.

[Seeker]

Not sure where this notion got started, but it needs to get nipped in the bud. Both autos and manuals have starter relays.

I beg to differ...


For 92-94 models, manuals DO NOT have starter relays.. 95+ is when EWS systems came in and had a form of relay inside the EWS system itself in both auto and manuals. It is not a relay all on it's own.. it is integrated with the EWS module.


Want proof?

Take a look at the schematics for a '92 here.. goto page 105

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1499812


take a look.. one side WITH a relay says "WITH EGS"... EGS is AUTO Trans.
the other side say's "WITHOUT EGS" and completely cuts out a Starter Relay in the circuit.
This is the same circuit with or without a relay from 92-94
check it yourself thru the years..
http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm



SO yes.. let's get it nipped in the bud about the correct information here.

[jsmn4vu]

For 92-94 models, manuals DO NOT have starter relays.. 95+ is when EWS systems came in and had a form of relay inside the EWS system itself in both auto and manuals. It is not a relay all on it's own.. it is integrated with the EWS module.
First, whether it's integrated with the module or not, it's a relay.

But more to the point, an E36 starter draws, I believe, 200 amps or so. The ignition switch can't handle but a tiny percentage of that. So, somewhere in the system, there has to be a relay capable of handling a couple of hundred amps.

Are you saying that there is a relay integrated with the EWS module that can pass that kind of current?

[Seeker]

First, whether it's integrated with the module or not, it's a relay.

But more to the point, an E36 starter draws, I believe, 200 amps or so. The ignition switch can't handle but a tiny percentage of that. So, somewhere in the system, there has to be a relay capable of handling a couple of hundred amps.

Are you saying that there is a relay integrated with the EWS module that can pass that kind of current?


The starter motor draws it's high amps thru the solenoid on the starter itself.. which is activated by either just the ignition switch or a relay past the ignition switch.
The point of having the relay in early autos was to cut out power to the solenoid when in R,D,3,2,1 gears on the auto range switch.. thus you can only engage the starter when in P or N. It kept you from trying to hit the starter while in gear..
Manuals are treated differently because of the clutch and difficulty of doing the same switching to a stick lever compared to an auto lever.



I dont know what you are trying to say here? Are you trying to split hairs?

Technically.. a solenoid is a form of relay.. but we call it a solenoid and it's on the starter itself.

My post in the beginning of all this is in regards to the early cars.. 92-94 that have a specific starter relay in only Autos.. it's an orange/brown relay on the driver's side below the dash, near the hood release lever.
You could look all day for it on a manual car and NEVER find it because it's simply not there.. it's only found on auto's.
This relay is all by itself.. you can unplug it and bypass it directly at the socket and you can start the car without it.. very simple.

But you can't do that to a later car.. like OBD2 systems with EWS II.. the "relay" is INSIDE the EWS module.. you could possibly bypass it, but the point here is its not replaceable w/out replacing the entire EWS module..

[jsmn4vu]

I dont know what you are trying to say here? Are you trying to split hairs?

Technically.. a solenoid is a form of relay.. but we call it a solenoid and it's on the starter itself.

I wasn't trying to split hairs, but I guess I did, inadvertently. I misinterpreted what you were saying. We're in agreement.

[Seeker]

glad we came to agreement..:D

and again, technically you are correct if you view the solenoid as a "relay".. it is, but it isnt.. a solenoid is a MASSIVE relay compared to the usual ones.

To add.. the solenoid on most BMW starters have two jobs.. one is to act as a switch for the huge amounts of amps to flow to the starter motor.. the second job is to push out the engagement gear to the flywheel.
That's why when a solenoid goes bad for the second job.. you can hear the motor spin, but it wont engage the flywheel.
GM's and Ford's usually have a centrifugal bendix in the starter that throws the engagement gear out when the starter motor spins and the solenoid is simply doing one job.. being a switch.. that's why alot of older fords had the solenoid on the firewall.. completely away from the starter.. Ford was smart in keeping that sucker away from all the heat down there and ease of repair.. you could also jump the starter at the firewall instead of cramming a screwdriver down on the starter to short over the connection to get the starter to spin.



Now back to our regular program...



so i hav not tested yet, but i wanted to throw in that when i sprayed the starter fluid in there and it made the loud "pop" noise, it knocked off the hose under the intake like i said before. Well i noticed that right under that hose that was knocked off, sits the starter solenoid- i think its the solenoid. So when it knocked the hose off, what could it have done to the solenoid?? All the wires are still tight, but i dont know, maybe someone on here will know.

dtermined1...

I provided you with links to schematics earlier.. can you understand them?

Wire colors like SW/GE are confusing until you go to the page 13 in the chapter "Symbols"
SW/GE is actually BLACK/YELLOW (the initials are for German colors, SW is SWARTZ, which is BLACK in German)... there should be a black with yellow stripe wire on your solenoid.. its the part on your starter with all the wires on it.

and.. NO, NO, NO!!! that hose coming off your intake should not have hurt it.

But that doesnt mean you might have worn the piss out of your ignition switch while you tried to start your car over and over when you tried to prime your fuel up.
(PS.. next time, prime your fuel up by jumping your fuel pump relay.. it'll allow you to run that pump constantly with your engine off)

If you follow the schematics.. that Black/Yellow wire is the same for both autos and manuals..
in order for your solenoid to activate and switch the high amps to the starter motor, it needs to be 12V.
When your ignition/key is at START, that wire should be 12V..

I would suggest you check that terminal, or remove that wire from the solenoid and check for 12V when a buddy turns the key to start.
If you sometimes get 12v and other times dont.. then you most likely have a bad ignition switch.

HTH's