Please: wtf is swirl?

[dabdibridgep]

so im really curious to know the exact definition "swirl" on a car... what it looks like, how it gets there, can wax remove it?, does it need to be more than wax, some picture maybe... anything you know will be appreciated.

thank you all very much...
Cheers,
David

[telijah]

This will get better answers in the detailing forum: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=147

[dabdibridgep]

This will get better answers in the detailing forum: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=147


I am NOT impressed.

[akhbhaat]

"Swirl" means small, fine scratches in the clear coat. Due to refraction, they usually appear in a circular pattern around the reflected light source on the paint as you look at the car. It is by far easiest to see on dark colored cars under bright light (e.g. a flash light or direct sunlight).

Chances are, your car has it--most daily drivers do. It's virtually inevitable as the paint is exposed to contact with towels, sponges or hands while washing, impure water, high speed contact with dirt and other pollutants from the air and road, etc.

There are a couple ways to mitigate it...for example, certain waxes and polishes are designed to "fill in" the scratches which can significantly soften the look, but this effect wears off with said wax or polish. The only way to permanently "fix" it is to use a special abrasive compound and a buffer to grind away the surface layer of clear coat, and the scratches with it. Because you could easily overdo it and cause serious damage to the clear coat, I don't recommend doing this to your car until you've gathered experience with it elsewhere--a good professional detailer should have no trouble with it, though.

Here's the first image that comes up on Google...appropriate, I'd say:
http://www.meguiars.com/faq/400_bmwbefore.jpg

[nathancarter]

Not impressed by what .. the detailing forum, or the answer?


In short, a swirl mark is a very tiny scratch in the car's clear coat, caused practically any time something touches the paint. They are caused by improper washing, drying, and waxing techniques; automatic car washes; sitting stuff down on the hood/trunk/roof; leaning against the car when it's dirty, etc. You can't feel them, but when the car is in the sun or in spotlights (e.g. parking lot lights at night), they are very visible. Sometimes they're called "spiderweb scratches" because they kinda resemble fine spiderwebs all over the car.

Swirls can be removed by polishing the paint with a polishing machine and the right polishing compound(s). It's a skill that is pretty easy to learn but takes a lot of practice to master.

You can't remove swirls by waxing, and you generally can't remove them by hand polishing. There are some products that use fillers to hide swirls, but this is a temporary solution.

If you can feel the mark with your fingernail, then it's not a swirl, it's a scratch, and it can't be polished out; it will need touch-up paint.

Some useful links:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1360348
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/19986-what-means-remove-swirls-scratches-water-spots-out-automotive-clear-coats.html

Some good recent examples of swirl removal as part of a full detail:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1230584
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1408290
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1398534

Example of a before-and-after correction - note the swirls in the left section, and the glossy swirl-free finish in the right:
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt90/oakesdetail/STi/Nick4091.jpg

[dabdibridgep]

"Swirl" means small, fine scratches in the clear coat. Due to refraction, they usually appear in a circular pattern around the reflected light source on the paint as you look at the car. It is by far easiest to see on dark colored cars under bright light (e.g. a flash light or direct sunlight).

Chances are, your car has it--most daily drivers do. It's virtually inevitable as the paint is exposed to contact with towels, sponges or hands while washing, impure water, high speed contact with dirt and other pollutants from the air and road, etc.

There are a couple ways to mitigate it...for example, certain waxes and polishes are designed to "fill in" the scratches which can significantly soften the look, but this effect wears off with said wax or polish. The only way to permanently "fix" it is to use a special abrasive compound and a buffer to grind away the surface layer of clear coat, and the scratches with it. Because you could easily overdo it and cause serious damage to the clear coat, I don't recommend doing this to your car until you've gathered experience with it elsewhere--a good professional detailer should have no trouble with it, though.

Here's the first image that comes up on Google...appropriate, I'd say:
http://www.meguiars.com/faq/400_bmwbefore.jpg


cool. thank you.

so i recently used some paste wax on my car, and it feels wet and smooth to the touch. it also looks really shinny.... ill double check on the swirl but i don't know if i will need to go beyond using the good old paste wax...

any other thoughts?

[MPower7]

Yes, you will have too. Wax is just a very temporary fix, if that.

[M0nK3y]

You car has swirls. I can guarantee it....

I still don't understand what you want? There are plenty of resources on the detailing forum for a dedicated enthusiast to search.

Wax will not remove swirls. And depending on what you are using to apply, and remove the wax, I can bet you are putting more swirls in the paint. Read up....

Here is a G35 that I did that had massive swirling. Needed a 3 Stage Polish + Finishing Polish to achieve results:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/1nFeCt1oN/DSC02495.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/1nFeCt1oN/DSC02497.jpg

[nathancarter]

so i recently used some paste wax on my car, and it feels wet and smooth to the touch. it also looks really shinny.... ill double check on the swirl but i don't know if i will need to go beyond using the good old paste wax...


If you're happy with how it looks, then it's fine.

If you look at some of those threads I linked above and think "meh, not much difference" then don't worry about trying to remove your swirls. If you look at those before-and-afters and think, "Man, I didn't know my car could look THAT good!" then it's time to think about paint correction.

IMO, a thorough paint correction by a competent detailer is one of the best cosmetic mods you can do. After it's done, learn proper washing/drying/waxing techniques so you can minimize the rate at which swirls reappear.

[dabdibridgep]

Not impressed by what .. the detailing forum, or the answer?

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt90/oakesdetail/STi/Nick4091.jpg

not impressed it what it says under his name...

and i was sort of mocking him because he was redirecting me...so i said "i am NOT impressed" as it says underneath his name....

so to answer your question.... his answer.

thanks for the info... so im looking at probably a couple hundred bucks for the serious detail job?

[volksfragen]

You car has swirls. I can guarantee it....

I still don't understand what you want? There are plenty of resources on the detailing forum for a dedicated enthusiast to search.

Wax will not remove swirls. And depending on what you are using to apply, and remove the wax, I can bet you are putting more swirls in the paint. Read up....

Here is a G35 that I did that had massive swirling. Needed a 3 Stage Polish + Finishing Polish to achieve results:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/1nFeCt1oN/DSC02495.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/1nFeCt1oN/DSC02497.jpg


Come to canada, and detail mine :D

[telijah]

I was trying to save you the time of sorting through the various answers you'll get here as there is tons of info on this in the detailing forum. This is a detailing issue. As mentioned, just look at the car where you can see direct light reflecting, and you'll see swirls. Usually, a decent wax job will fix it. However, a "decent" wax job is not just simply waxing your car. Hence, I would check out the detailing forum. Wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything, was seriously trying to point you to a better source of answers is all.

[dabdibridgep]

not a problem, i understand you weren't being a jerk, that's why i sarcastically mocked you with what i said... it's all good...

[telijah]

Yeah, I had a rough start to my day, and apparently it's still going. My bad. A decent buffer is always a good investment. However, I'd read up on dealing with high speed ones, as you'll burn the shit out of your paint if you're not careful. Luckily, in my learning period, two of my friends were detailers for dealerships.

[dabdibridgep]

ya, i'm gonna have to do some more research.... not that car my car isn't looking great, but it can always be better you know...

[M0nK3y]

Yeah, I had a rough start to my day, and apparently it's still going. My bad. A decent buffer is always a good investment. However, I'd read up on dealing with high speed ones, as you'll burn the shit out of your paint if you're not careful. Luckily, in my learning period, two of my friends were detailers for dealerships.

If you pick up a Porter Cable Dual Action, those are fairly cheap and are at a low risk of burning the paint.

A rotary is more for experienced people and it is easy to burn paint...Take it from me

[nathancarter]

thanks for the info... so im looking at probably a couple hundred bucks for the serious detail job?

yes, more or less. Depends on whether you need touchup paint or not.


If you pick up a Porter Cable Dual Action, those are fairly cheap and are at a low risk of burning the paint.


Agreed. If you're interested in paint correction, you have two routes:

1) Spend a couple hundred and have a pro detailer do it (or a very good amateur). Have them teach you some proper washing/drying/waxing techniques so you can maintain the finish.
- Pros: Easy, and if you do your research to find a good detailer, you 'll have a fantastic shiny finish when done
- Cons: Costs a couple hundred each time - maybe twice a year for a black car, maybe once every two years for silver, somewhere in between for other colors.

-- OR --

2) Spend a couple hundred to buy a random orbital and all the necessary accessories and compounds, then learn to do it yourself.
- Pros: Don't have to buy the equipment more than once, except to restock consumables. You can keep it looking good without going to anyone else. If you get good, you can make some money by doing other people's cars.
- Cons: There's a definite learning curve, and your first detail will not be as good as the pros. It's a lot of time, sweat, and hard work to do it right. You'll always want to spend a little more to get the next new exciting tool or product.

[E46Pinoy]

how much would it cost for a full detail to remove the swirls?

[dabdibridgep]

Nathan, what is the name of the specific detail im looking for, clay bar, polish... etc which is it, thanks.

[nathancarter]

how much would it cost for a full detail to remove the swirls?

Depends on the car and the detailer. Expect $150-300.


Nathan, what is the name of the specific detail im looking for, clay bar, polish... etc which is it, thanks.

The usual term is "paint correction."

The general sequence, depending on the severity of your paint and how much you are willing to pay, goes something like this:
- Wash with a car wash that will strip all old waxes and sealants.
- Clay bar to remove contaminants that are embedded in the paint, that the washing doesn't remove
- Polish with a relatively aggressive swirl-removing compound
- Polish with a final-cut or "jeweling" compound, to remove any holograms or hazing left by the aggressive compound
- Seal with a sealant (optional), and/or wax with a good carnauba

There are plenty of other "options" that you can add on, such as interior cleaning & detailing, engine bay detailing, touchup paint, cleaning the rims and wheel wells, etc.

If your paint is in pretty good shape, you can get by with a single-step compounding/polishing process. If your paint is in really poor shape, or if the clear coat is very hard, you may need a three-step compounding process. If you use a very aggressive compound then don't follow up with a mild compound, you'll get rid of the swirls but leave lots of little buffer trails/holograms/hazing all over the paint - this is one of the common mistakes of a "hack" detailer who doesn't know what he's doing (but will still want to take your money!!). Scroll about halfway down this thread for examples of hack work being repaired by a true pro:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1413320

If you do the sealant, it'll have to cure before you can wax.

If you do touchup paint, it'll need to cure before polishing. (I've had good experience with Dr. Colorchip)

[M0nK3y]

how much would it cost for a full detail to remove the swirls?

It all varies on location and who you go with. You are looking at $300-$500 for a full detail. That's a rough estimate


Nathan, what is the name of the specific detail im looking for, clay bar, polish... etc which is it, thanks.

For Full Paint Correction?

Wash
Clay Bar
Polish -> 1, 2, 3 Step Polish depending on how much swirls you want removed
Sealant
Wax

Wheels Sealed, Tires Reconditioned
Trim Reconditioned
Headlights and Taillights Polished

Then there is the whole interior gig.

[TJQMaster]

If you pick up a Porter Cable Dual Action, those are fairly cheap and are at a low risk of burning the paint.

A rotary is more for experienced people and it is easy to burn paint...Take it from me


I got a question on those. I spent about $40 buck on a random orbital buffer...I have two actually. 8" B&D and 10" Ryobi. I used them on an extensive detail this weekend. I always end up doing it by hand, though. I always feel like they dont generate enough contact with the surface.

I always feel that the slightest bit of pressure to create contact with the paint surface stops the damn thing from spinning and it just sits there vibrating uselessly.

Is it just a torque issue? I.E. I need a polisher with MORE TORQUE.

[dabdibridgep]

It all varies on location and who you go with. You are looking at $300-$500 for a full detail. That's a rough estimate



For Full Paint Correction?

Wash
Clay Bar
Polish -> 1, 2, 3 Step Polish depending on how much swirls you want removed
Sealant
Wax

Wheels Sealed, Tires Reconditioned
Trim Reconditioned
Headlights and Taillights Polished

Then there is the whole interior gig.


just scheduled to have this done thursday morning at 8 AM. 100 bucks. this guy washes and waxes cars for the employees where i work....

question, is it gonna be ok that he's doing it at 8:00 when it is or will be sunny soon?

[nathancarter]

I'd be wary of a $100 full detail - but then again, you may be getting a good deal, who knows.

Make sure it doesn't look like this when he's done with the polishing step - have him come get you after he's done polishing, before he applies wax or sealant:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn31/WesRobles1/derricksslk/55.jpg

[dabdibridgep]

ya... he mentioned that it will include all 4 steps... wash, clay bar, polish/wax..

he was asking 115... i just said 100 and be done with it and he said fine...

plus i guess he hooks it up for our employees...

[danewilson77]

Not impressed by what .. the detailing forum, or the answer?


In short, a swirl mark is a very tiny scratch in the car's clear coat, caused practically any time something touches the paint. They are caused by improper washing, drying, and waxing techniques; automatic car washes; sitting stuff down on the hood/trunk/roof; leaning against the car when it's dirty, etc. You can't feel them, but when the car is in the sun or in spotlights (e.g. parking lot lights at night), they are very visible. Sometimes they're called "spiderweb scratches" because they kinda resemble fine spiderwebs all over the car.

Swirls can be removed by polishing the paint with a polishing machine and the right polishing compound(s). It's a skill that is pretty easy to learn but takes a lot of practice to master.

You can't remove swirls by waxing, and you generally can't remove them by hand polishing. There are some products that use fillers to hide swirls, but this is a temporary solution.

If you can feel the mark with your fingernail, then it's not a swirl, it's a scratch, and it can't be polished out; it will need touch-up paint.

Some useful links:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1360348
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/19986-what-means-remove-swirls-scratches-water-spots-out-automotive-clear-coats.html

Some good recent examples of swirl removal as part of a full detail:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1230584
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1408290
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1398534

Example of a before-and-after correction - note the swirls in the left section, and the glossy swirl-free finish in the right:
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt90/oakesdetail/STi/Nick4091.jpg

I am impressed.

[M0nK3y]

I got a question on those. I spent about $40 buck on a random orbital buffer...I have two actually. 8" B&D and 10" Ryobi. I used them on an extensive detail this weekend. I always end up doing it by hand, though. I always feel like they dont generate enough contact with the surface.

I always feel that the slightest bit of pressure to create contact with the paint surface stops the damn thing from spinning and it just sits there vibrating uselessly.

Is it just a torque issue? I.E. I need a polisher with MORE TORQUE.

Sorry to say this, but you will never achieve correction with that thing. 8" pads are too big for a DA and you will never generate heat with that.

Look into a Porter Cable. I picked mine up for about $95 shipped. I use 5" pads on the PC and achieved enough correction to satisfy me, for awhile

Then I upgraded to my Makita for like $180, which is a rotary, and I use 6.5" pads on that


ya... he mentioned that it will include all 4 steps... wash, clay bar, polish/wax..

he was asking 115... i just said 100 and be done with it and he said fine...

plus i guess he hooks it up for our employees...

Some people say 'polish' and it is a rubbing compound or something that is ment for heaving cutting and isn't finished up. This can lead to more swirls and/or holograms

[dabdibridgep]

Sorry to say this, but you will never achieve correction with that thing. 8" pads are too big for a DA and you will never generate heat with that.

Look into a Porter Cable. I picked mine up for about $95 shipped. I use 5" pads on the PC and achieved enough correction to satisfy me, for awhile

Then I upgraded to my Makita for like $180, which is a rotary, and I use 6.5" pads on that



Some people say 'polish' and it is a rubbing compound or something that is ment for heaving cutting and isn't finished up. This can lead to more swirls and/or holograms


ok.... so... what do you think i should do. i mean he gave me the break down... so its just a matter of trust at this point i guess... how long does a job like this take?

[M0nK3y]

ok.... so... what do you think i should do. i mean he gave me the break down... so its just a matter of trust at this point i guess... how long does a job like this take?

When I take cars for detail, I keep them for 2 days, but I also do 3 step polishes.

I'm not saying this guy is a hack or anything, but I've received cars that were not properly detailed and I had to fix them.

A normal 1 stage polish should take around 2-3 hours for a normal 3 series car. Add that onto Wash, Clay Bar, Polish, and Wax, you are looking around 4-5 Hours

That isn't normal for me, because I'm an OCD person and won't let anything leave my hands unless it's perfect.

There are polishes that can be used in 1 Step, it just a waiting game from now on

[dabdibridgep]

ya, when i talk to him face to face, all be able to make a better judgment. that's when i decide if ill let him do the job or not.

[nathancarter]

As mentioned above, if he uses a very aggressive polish, it'll take the swirls out but will leave holograms, buffer trails, ghosts, whatever you want to call them - it'll look kinda like that Mercedes pic that I put in post #24. These can be removed with an additional polishing step using finer polish, but that takes a couple of extra hours. (that's what's called a 2-step polish.. M0nk3y refers to a 3-step polish above, similar concepts).

If he uses a not-aggressive-enough polish, it will only eliminate the finer swirls, and not completely eliminate the deeper swirl marks. IMO, this is way better than leaving holograms, and is probably what I'd hope to receive from a $100 1-step polish job.

[dabdibridgep]

you know what... i think im just gonna stay content with the way my car looks now.... it looks great.... lol

by the way nathan, did u read my PM yet?

[TJQMaster]

Sorry to say this, but you will never achieve correction with that thing. 8" pads are too big for a DA and you will never generate heat with that.

Look into a Porter Cable. I picked mine up for about $95 shipped. I use 5" pads on the PC and achieved enough correction to satisfy me, for awhile

Then I upgraded to my Makita for like $180, which is a rotary, and I use 6.5" pads on that



Some people say 'polish' and it is a rubbing compound or something that is ment for heaving cutting and isn't finished up. This can lead to more swirls and/or holograms


Would those PC's and Makita's solve my perceived "torque problem"? When you use them and press down to generate heat do you feel like theyre just sitting there on top of the paint just vibrating? Or do they actually continue to rotate?

PS: some model #s would be helpful :D

[M0nK3y]

Would those PC's and Makita's solve my perceived "torque problem"? When you use them and press down to generate heat do you feel like theyre just sitting there on top of the paint just vibrating? Or do they actually continue to rotate?

PS: some model #s would be helpful :D

Porter Cable is a Dual Action. Meaning it vibrates and spins, making the pad rotate and vibrate. It doesn't force the pad in rotation, so you won't risk burning panels. It's alot user friendly and it is an easy learning curve. Problem is that you won't achiever 95% correction. More around 75-85%. With enough pressure and pad choices, the pad will vibrate and continue to rotate

http://www.detailedimage.com/Porter-Cable-M17/7424XP-Random-Orbital-Buffer-P331/

The Makita is a rotary, not a Dual Action. It does not vibrate the pad at all, it's a straight forced rotation. Compared around the PC, where you operate up to around 7500 RPM? The Makita you are running around 600-1800 RPM. There is a tough learning curve, and you can burn paint very quickly. I ended up burning paint on a customer's bumper. It literally happened in a flash. I suspected a pad re-paint job, but none of the less, I had to fix it with my money, and ended up barely breaking evening and he got away with a free detail.

http://www.detailedimage.com/Makita-M42/9227C-X3-Rotary-Buffer-P373/

For someone that just want's to work on your car. I'd suggest the Porter Cable. It's a simple machine to master, and enough correction that you will be satisfied with

[TJQMaster]

I see your PC & Makita and raise you a

http://www.autogeek.net/cyclo-polishers.html

[golforcars325i]

just scheduled to have this done thursday morning at 8 AM. 100 bucks. this guy washes and waxes cars for the employees where i work....

question, is it gonna be ok that he's doing it at 8:00 when it is or will be sunny soon?

You won't get true 'paint correction' done for that price! But if you're happy with the results, that's all that really matters.

[e24mpwr]

A few things. First, a $100 detail is probably a 3-4 hour job with a mild polish and wax, probably applied done with a DA (Porter Cable or similar). That isn't a terrible price, but don't expect a perfect car. Just so you know, in the parlance of the "detailing world" washing and claybar aren't usually counted as "steps" - it is a reference to how many product cycles you go through with the buffer (e.g. 2 levels of polish, a glaze and a wax would be a 4-step detail).

As someone mentioned, swirls can be hidden with wax, but it really takes polishing to make them go away.

If you are a do-it-yourself kind of guy getting a Porter Cable DA (or the competitors from Griot's/Meguiars) and a good detailing kit (which will go from $250-$350, depending on what you get) will give you a chance to get terrific results yourself. It really isn't hard, the learning curve isn't really that much and the Porter Cable is really safe (you have to work pretty hard to hurt something, which isn't true of a regular orbital buffer).

The good news is once you've invested the big money in a complete kit and done your first big detail, your time and money going forward is a lot smaller - your big nugget for the first purchase is the buffer itself @ ~$140. "Reloading" the polish/waxes, etc. isn't often and isn't much. Your first kit is likely to last you a year to two years depending on how much you use it, and re-buying every single chemical (which isn't likely since you won't use them all at a consistent rate) will probably cost less than $100. And once you've invested the time to get your car to a nice level, you won't have to invest nearly the time to keep it that way (plus you'll get faster as you get more comfortable).

TJQMaster - Those big buffers with 7" or larger pads aren't good for much other than wax, and I really wouldn't use them for anything. Yes they have no torque ;)
Models to look at would be the Porter Cable 7424XP ~$140, the Meguiars G110v2 ~$150 or the Griot's Random Orbital $129 (they only sell one 6" electric DA). All are good. I'm a personal fan of the Porter Cable - it is a proven platform.

Nathan - good to have you here!


I see your PC & Makita and raise you a

http://www.autogeek.net/cyclo-polishers.html

I've never used one, but I just can't justify the Cyclo - they look unwieldy, have seemingly limited pads available and for the money I'm buying a Flex XC3401 (oops - wait - I did! ;)) I don't think the Cyclo or the Flex are for beginners myself.

[M0nK3y]

I see your PC & Makita and raise you a

http://www.autogeek.net/cyclo-polishers.html

Cyclo is just Meh....

Some people love them, other hate them. There is really no best DA out there, but I don't think the Cyclo competes with the other DA's on the market.

They have smaller pads, so you are only limiting yourself to what is available for them. Limited manufactures make pads for the Cyclo, just FYI.

And out of the three above, The Makita is still the best machine to use by a professional. Rotary > All. I love mine, and I would never even think to downgrade to anything else. I already have a PC here with me also.

In addition, the Flex is another tool to look at. It's a DA with Forced Rotation. More correction than a PC, not as dangerous of a Rotary.

Just food for thought.

http://www.detailedimage.com/Flex-M26/XC-3401-VRG-P128/

http://autogeek.net/flex-orbital-polisher.html

[e24mpwr]

M0nK3y - I'm going to disagree with you a bit on the percentage of correction you are referring to - I absolutely get 95% correction with my PC XP. I use the GlossHaus system, and the most aggressive polish (Foundation I) with the yellow pad gives you a lot of correction capability. Certainly the Orbital can accomplish more in less time, but with the much higher risk factor.

I've owned a number of polishers including the original Griot's RO and the PC 7336 - I currently have the PC 7424XP, The Flex XC 3401, the Griot's 3" electric (current generation) and the Griot's 3" pneumatic (fits in places nothing else will). The Flex is an awesome machine, with more cut and capability than the PC XP, Meguiars G110v2, etc. and the variable speed trigger is terrific. However, I wouldn't generally recommend it as a novice/starting buffer. It "drives" you a bit, and really requires both hands where the PC XP is just plain easy. I only pull out the Flex when I really need the power, and I will almost always glaze and wax with the PC.