I Need Help E12 vs E24

[kayoticwolf]

Okay guys, I missed on the 84 import... but I still have a shot a 82. I would like to get it, but I'm concerned about it's E12 build. The car is running and there are no signs of rust or frame damage, but there are a few things I would like to do to it, (suspension rebuild, LSD, better engine, Megasquirt FMC) and I just need to know, how difficult (and costly) this will be on a E12 opposed to a E24?

[tlister67]

I think they are all considered E24s, early ones based on e12 5-series body and later on e28 based 5-series. I have an 82 633 (E12 based). In general it is easier to find parts for the e28 based cars. They are cheaper as well. There is also a significantly larger knowledge base and manual coverage for the later cars. The 82 production year is odd because they changed to motronic engine management while the rest of the car was e12.

As an example, front strut mounts were like $150 each IIRC. There is virtually no aftermarket support for early cars.

[euroshark]

If you can get us a build date using the last 7 of the VIN in one of the decoders (or call your dealer) we will be able to tell you for sure. Cars built up through 5/82 are E12 based and cars after that are E28 based.

The instrument cluster, door panels and center console are dead giveaways too. If you have a big speedometer right in the middle of the cluster you have an E12 based car, whereas the E28 cars have a big speedo and a big tach to the left and right of a rectangular area in the middle of the cluster. There are plenty of other differences but those are easy to spot quickly and will give you a solid answer.

[oxen]

i like e12 doors. but the e28 chassis is much easier to find parts for. i would vote to go e28 based sixer.

[kayoticwolf]

Big middle speedo, so I'm pretty sure it's an e12 base.... the problem with e28 base is finding them... I can get a hold of this one... I can't get a hold of an e28 base. I'm just wanting to know how significant a difference is.

[Seeker]

i like e12 doors. but the e28 chassis is much easier to find parts for. i would vote to go e28 based sixer.

I too like the classic form of the e12 6er doors.
I also like the speedo better on them...


Big middle speedo, so I'm pretty sure it's an e12 base.... the problem with e28 base is finding them... I can get a hold of this one... I can't get a hold of an e28 base. I'm just wanting to know how significant a difference is.


its quite a difference under the body.


if money isnt a problem, then get it.. otherwise.. it would be wise to wait it out for an '85+ 6er instead.. they are everywhere for sale.. just not locally to you right now evidently
its not that you flat out cant get an e28 6er.. its just not where you are looking for one right now.

but since you have to ask about costs and are not at this time willing to buy a e28 six from out of your area due to costs, it sounds to me like money is a very high consideration in your efforts to obtain a six.
WE GUARANTEE you that you will end up spending alot more time/effort/$$$$ on the e12 car than an e28 car.. you might as well realize that now and go ahead and spend that kinda extra money now towards a car out of your area and eat transport costs to get it and start out ahead of what you'd be starting with on an e12 car

you got the bug for getting a six and I know how that is.. first one I looked at was a rust bucket e12 euro and I THANK GOD that I didnt buy it.. I waited a couple months and a much better car came up

[kayoticwolf]

Your right Seeker, thanks... I was just hoping to get one and have it in decent shape before sharkfest.... looks like I won't be making it this year...

[BoldUlysses]

On the positive side, the E12-based cars are simpler electronically and don't have the dreaded control arm bushing issues the later cars have.

On the negative side, as has been mentioned, it's harder to find performance/replacement parts for the earlier cars, and the consensus is the rustproofing wasn't quite as effective with the E12 6ers either (not that they improved it a great deal for the later chassis).

Good luck, and post pics of what you do get.

FWIW, I don't know if you've seen this thread, but I believe it's the car you (and I for a while) were interested in. Just thought you might like to know who snapped it up:

http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11543

-Matt

[Seeker]

I did a Craigslist search on searchtemptest.com and found these two..


http://richmond.craigslist.org/cto/1620213139.html

I'm not sure if thats an auto or not..


but this one..

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/cto/1616430019.html

is a 5 speed! it will most likely have the Getrag 265 in it.. which is perhaps the best gearbox you could get.

EDIT- I just now saw the 2nd one has a slightly crinkled nose and perhaps a ding on the rear deck.. but those can be swapped out/repainted without too terribly a problem... alot easier fix than trying to completely update an e12 based car's systems


.....

http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11543

-Matt

so it finally sold.. but to someone who doesnt know exactly what he bought?
:rofl

he musta done the impulse buy thing with it. I'm sure he got what he paid for.


For the right price, I'd have bought that car too.. knowing its missing the orig. ///M engine in it.. its still a very nice car from what I've seen.. just as long as you know what you're getting.
The plus side is, later on that car can be restored with the M88 or S38 engine if you really care to spend that kinda money.

[94ZR1]

and there are no signs of rust

You just didnt look hard enough

[JRanmann]

Wolf you have a PM

[Bert Poliakoff]

Many misconceptions here. The only suspension parts that may prove a little more expensive and difficult to find, will be Billsteins for the E12 suspension. Suspension is simpler and electrics are simpler. As to rust, it is the early Karman bodied cars that are severely rust prone, the rest of the cars are pretty much the same as to rust. I am doing a total ground up restoration on an E12 car, and have been able to access everything I have wanted without being ripped off on parts and have34 an excellent grasp of what is available.

[kayoticwolf]

Okay, I've e-mailed the guy in Jersey and I'm going to call the guy in Richmond. Thanks again guys, I still think I'm going to try to go after one of the 85's.

[Layne]

There's nothing wrong with an E12 car, I think they're pretty cool.

There's also nothing wrong with coming to sharkfest before you actually own a shark. I guarantee it won't effect your good time.

[Seeker]

Okay, I've e-mailed the guy in Jersey and I'm going to call the guy in Richmond. Thanks again guys, I still think I'm going to try to go after one of the 85's.

I'd focus on that NJ one if the Richmond car is an auto.


I'm sure you saw the nose panel on it and winced a bit.. but I'm betting mechanically its a better base to work with for whats available in your area.

I mean my god.. 5 speed.. sport seats.. nice M-tech steering wheel...

That car does look familiar to me.. its possible its owned by a member on bfc

and since it has some cosmetic flaws like the nose panel, front bumper corners are loose/floppy.. something going on with the check panel.. perhaps a slight amount of rust..
I bet you can work with the seller on price. I would think he'd sell it to you for around $2k.. maybe slightly more.. but not much more.. that nose panel is the biggest issue... but you get it and we can help guide you in replacing it.. its spot welded on with about 25+ spotwelds.. just gotta drill out the welds and off it comes!

The good thing about the front is that it appears that the front spoiler is in VGC.. its usually the part that is wasted on cheap 6's.. plus it's got the fogs!
My car's front spoiler/airdam wasnt even there when I bought it.. I ended up spending ~$500 to get a used one, paint it and buy fogs for it.

It's really not a bad base car to start with IMHO. I surely wish my car was that one to begin with simply based on the 5 speed already in place and being a Getrag 265... that gearbox takes alot of punishment and will hold up to alot of HP's ran thru it :D

[Shipper]

Okay guys, I missed on the 84 import... but I still have a shot a 82. I would like to get it, but I'm concerned about it's E12 build. The car is running and there are no signs of rust or frame damage, but there are a few things I would like to do to it, (suspension rebuild, LSD, better engine, Megasquirt FMC) and I just need to know, how difficult (and costly) this will be on a E12 opposed to a E24?

Dogleg box's cost me about 500 pounds and I bring them in from the UK. A side loader (for all e12 based 633's and 635's, mines a 1977 633) LSD is around 300 pounds although they usually do not know the ratio. They come with the standard 25% lock. Side loaders are rarer than the toploader in the e24. Springs are easy as are shocks. You can drop a B35 straight in. The interior is nicer with the E9 style door cards and handles. Suspension is the same as the E9 and E3 although the E12 rears are coilovers where the E3 and E9 are not. Still, parts can be found. I find the parts are the same cost although you may need to wait a little longer for them. Otherwise they are a great car. Only around 20,000 E12 based 6'ers compared to 80,000 e24 based so a little rarer as well. If it is rust free, go for it!

[Seeker]

I bet the OP is getting very confused ITT by now...

[kayoticwolf]

I would be very confused, I'm sure now I'm going with one of the 2 you found Seeker. I've briefly talked to the guy in Jersey and I'm down to make the trip I can't get an answer from the one in richmond though... *shurg* thanks again everyone for all of the great great knowledge and info. even if I don't get one of these I'm still on for Sharkfest though :)

Ok I talked to the guy and Jersey, and I'm getting it for 2500... I should be picking it up on Saturday hopefully.

[Seeker]

hope the NJ one will work out for you.


after looking at the add again and clicking the pics, I was taken to the picasaweb hosting site and able to see the pics in much larger format.

I did see that there is some rust going on at the front of the rear wheel arch on the passenger side and apparently a couple dings right behind the door on the drivers side.

looking again at the nose panel.. it might be possible to bang it back into shape without removing it if you know of someone who is fairly skilled at that kinda thing. My neighbor fixed an e36 nosepanel for me that had a slight amount of damage like that.

the wheel they show pictured has a tire on it that is 10 years old.. so most likely they all are and at that age its highly recommended you get them replaced. I like the wheels.. looks to be 16's and perhaps 2 or 3 piece wheels that could be refurbed.. very period era looking for the car IMO.

the check lights appear to be for washer fluid and coolant level. one or both may be bad sensors causing the lights to be lit.

I would be concerned if the AC blower works correctly with that old radar detector crammed into the intake vent port.

the strut towers have a brace installed.. an extra already in place for you.

That dash looked like it was not cracked.. a MAJOR plus!

Hopefully the odo is correct. 116K miles is pretty low for it's age. Make sure its working! And.. DO NOT press the trip meter button in while the car is in motion!! Thats usually how the odo gears get broken.

if its in very good mechanical shape drivetrain and suspension wise.. I'm sure you can deal with the minor cosmetic flaws as you work on it and later down the road do the body work and give it a fresh coat of paint.


good luck with it.

[kayoticwolf]

Thanks again Seeker and everyone else for the support, I'll print up your posts and take them with me saturday when I head up there. I'll let everyone know how it went as soon as I get back.

-Fred

[Bentsdl]

Hm, I'm not so enthusiastic about that NJ six. The engine is very corroded, so it looks like it was placed in a damp environment for a quite some time. That plus the rust on the rear wheel arch might indicate RUST.
If you look at the pic below you'll see that there's a ding in the front fender and the door looks weird too.
Ofcours it's a 5-speed and has a decent interior, but it's still a US-(bumpers)-six.
I don't think it's worth 2950, that nose and other dings are going to be expensive to fix and than you still need a respray.
I think you should wait a little longer to find a nice six with a good body and no rust. Things like mechanics, suspension(maybe not good on the NJ one) and even a manual 5-speed are all easy and cheap compared to rust/body work and respraying. Before it's all fixed you'll have spend 5000$ (including) purchase and still have a US-car, you can find a good 5-speed euro six for less.
(above is everything I didn't do when I bought my six, but I won't go that road again:rolleyes)

http://www.dls9.nl/bent/GEDC0040.JPG

[kayoticwolf]

Thanks Bentsdl. I am headed to NJ this weekend, and I manage to talk him down to 2500. The one from Richmond I can't get a hold of, and my first BMW was a rusted out (didn't know what to look for then) e21 so I am very leery of rust. On this tread I've gotten lots of good information on what to look for and how to check for things. The big selling push for this car is the low mileage and I believe if everything is as advertised then it will be a strong base for me to begin my projects.

[BoldUlysses]

Be that as it may, I would still be very leery. From the pictures, given the condition of the body, I don't think the car is even worth $2500. $2000 maybe. I'm not saying don't do it, just be very careful.

I'd take a well-maintained, rust-free car with a few interior issues with 250K over a battered, rusty car with 110K (and I did :D).

-Matt

[Bentsdl]

Why don't you have a look at this one : http://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto/1611741207.html That looks too me like very nice car. It's a auto, but it's not to difficuld to swap in a manual.

Even if you talk that one in NJ down to 2000, then you'll still end up with it being to expensive after you get the problems fixed.
If you don't really care about the cosmetics (like me) but just want a good reliable six, then talk it down to 2000 or lower and have fun with it.

[kayoticwolf]

If I were to get the one in charlotte then I would have to convert it to manual then I would be 3k in the hole after paying 3k for a car, and while I'm waiting for the money to convert it to manual then I'm stuck driving an auto... I'd rather pay 2.5k for some normal rust (if it is more then I will not buy it) and get it overhaul when I'm prepared (got a good guy with reasonable prices). But doing a transmission swap will take more resources then I'm willing to put forth right away.

[euroshark]

I don't mean to sound critical, but that logic seems pretty much completely backwards, especially when you consider the rust woes that some of the 6ers suffer from. Body work and rust repair will easily eat up hundreds of man hours and thousands (upon thousands) of dollars, whereas all of the necessary parts for a manual transmission swap can be had for less than $1000 (much less if you get lucky, maybe a bit more if you aren't) and the work can be completed in a weekend if you are motivated. It might seem like a great idea to find a car with good mechanicals and a mediocre body, but the reality is that it will take longer and cost more to make it pretty again... The mechanical stuff is easier and cheaper to make right most of the time.

[jmenacker]

Fred:

We've been thinking about thinning the stable this year.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jmenacker/a110505Antietam46.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jmenacker/a110505Antietam59.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jmenacker/84-635/1082-635-Interior.jpg

Late '82 built 635 5 speed OD. Delphin metallic.

Good: Nice interior, Recaro seats, uncracked dash, operating R12 A/C, open lug Alpina wheels, clean Alpina steering wheel, hi-comp euro engine - no leaks, wind it out for excitement, go easy and get 26+ mpg on highway.

Bad: Rust making appearance around wheel wells, standard US sealed beam headlights, intermittant speedo comes and goes, no cruise (came from factory without it), could use suspension bushing refreshing for sated gorilla feeling.

With the selling market bad right now does $4500 sound about right? The car is used regularly when roads are dry. I'm about 1/2 hour south of Hagerstown, MD. j_menacker@yahoo.com. No offense taken if you are truly looking for a rust free car. Its hard to beat a euro M30 engine for a combination of performance and efficiency though.

Joe M in WV

[Lapis 635 Euro]

Fred:

We've been thinking about thinning the stable this year.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jmenacker/a110505Antietam46.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jmenacker/a110505Antietam59.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jmenacker/84-635/1082-635-Interior.jpg

Late '82 built 635 5 speed OD. Delphin metallic.

Good: Nice interior, Recaro seats, uncracked dash, operating R12 A/C, open lug Alpina wheels, clean Alpina steering wheel, hi-comp euro engine - no leaks, wind it out for excitement, go easy and get 26+ mpg on highway.

Bad: Rust making appearance around wheel wells, standard US sealed beam headlights, intermittant speedo comes and goes, no cruise (came from factory without it), could use suspension bushing refreshing for sated gorilla feeling.

With the selling market bad right now does $4500 sound about right? The car is used regularly when roads are dry. I'm about 1/2 hour south of Hagerstown, MD. j_menacker@yahoo.com. No offense taken if you are truly looking for a rust free car. Its hard to beat a euro M30 engine for a combination of performance and efficiency though.

Joe M in WV

Bad market or not, that should be an easy sell at the price you're considering. I'd get it listed in the classifieds section pronto if serious.

[dm635]

Open lug Alpina's just look right on the 6. I'm having withdrawl since mine are now gone. I do have 2 16" Hartge wheels, just need 2 more. At least I do have some nice style 5's that look period correct.

[jbd5015]

im with you on that one dave. my dream wheels would be what carl has. 17" alpinas that can interchange between open lug and lug covered.

-Jeff

[kayoticwolf]

JM I shot you an e-mail.

[jmenacker]

JM I shot you an e-mail.

Reply to email sent!

Thank you,

Joe M in WV

[tlister67]

I like plan B!