e34 automatics?

[Africa]

So I made a thread about my 94' 540i purchase a few days ago, I was just wondering, since it is an automatic, how much more am I looking to spend on repairs and what not since automatic transmissions are more complex and cost more to repair. Thanks.

[T444E]

If it goes out; you are going to get bent over so to speak

[sander06]

OTOH, if you take care to flush the transmission regularly and take care of it, you shouldn't need to worry about it costing you anything for repairs.

[Skatingzooyork]

I 2nd what both guys said above. If you take care of it, you should be perfectly fine. But if it does happen to go out and you don't want to swap a 5/6spd, a rebuilt auto will be $$$$.

[jrcho88]

Also, note that you never want to do a "flush" in an old auto tranny. Stick to fluid drain/fills by dropping the pan.

[bdejong11129]

Ditto, I did a drain, filter change and fluid fill on mine when it has about 190k on it, 6,000 miles later still purring along just fine. And, NO you will not "get bent over" when it fails. they can be found for around 500-800 used and for 1400 you can get a fresh rebuild with warranty and all. Maybe 1400 is getting bent over to some, but a manual swap will dent you wallet more than that.

[jrcho88]

ATF filter and fluid change is probably the most important maintenance item to ensure that your auto tranny stays alive.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Tranny_Fluid_Auto/E36-Tranny_Fluid_Auto.htm

This is a good read for anyone looking to drain/filter-change/refill ATF on their GM 4L30E transmission. Other transmissions used in other E34s models should be similar. The cost should be around $60 - $70 ($30 for ATF Filter Kit + $30ish for 7 quarts of Dex VI ATF) depending on what fluid you use.

Brian... just curious, was your change at 190k your first ever ATF change for the tranny? If so, was it done as preventative maintenance or were you experiencing problems?

And if it was your first fluid change, I wonder if doing another drain/refill will help to get even more of the old crap out.

[E34tn]

Ditto, I did a drain, filter change and fluid fill on mine when it has about 190k on it, 6,000 miles later still purring along just fine.

Im curious about this as well. Was this the first time you did a fluid/filter change? I just bought my car a little over a month ago and it has 176K miles on it. I have no idea the previous maintenance history on it and dont know if the trans fluid has ever been changed. I can tell you the color of the fluid is not brown but red with a brownish tint. Several people have told me that if the fluid has not been changed or changed regularly then to leave it alone. They say that if i go and change it then my transmission is likely to go out within a short period of time. Something to do with the acid in the new fluid will mess up the gears and internals. I know that clean fluid is the only way to prolong the life of an automatic transmission so i dont know what to do. Im just afraid if i do change the fluid that i will mess something up. As of right now, my tranny seems fine. What should i do in my case?
Sorry for the thread jack but this is something that i have been curious about.

[janders211]

CAn't you just buy a used transmission for like $50?

[weaksauce]

i have a spare out of a 91 535i that i pulled because it was slipping. If anyone needs one for a core or to rebuild, it is your's for free if you either pick it up in dallas texas, or pay to have it shipped.

[zubbie]

Im curious about this as well. Was this the first time you did a fluid/filter change? I just bought my car a little over a month ago and it has 176K miles on it. I have no idea the previous maintenance history on it and dont know if the trans fluid has ever been changed. I can tell you the color of the fluid is not brown but red with a brownish tint. Several people have told me that if the fluid has not been changed or changed regularly then to leave it alone. They say that if i go and change it then my transmission is likely to go out within a short period of time. Something to do with the acid in the new fluid will mess up the gears and internals. I know that clean fluid is the only way to prolong the life of an automatic transmission so i dont know what to do. Im just afraid if i do change the fluid that i will mess something up. As of right now, my tranny seems fine. What should i do in my case?
Sorry for the thread jack but this is something that i have been curious about.

If changing the fluid caused the end of your tranny you were on borrowed time anyhow. I wouldn't necessarily do a flush (tends to free up contaminants) but would systematically drain and refill a few times.

[Russellc]

OTOH, if you take care to flush the transmission regularly and take care of it, you shouldn't need to worry about it costing you anything for repairs.

Wish that was true. Many have had failures without warning even after proper care. Even so, I am at 179,000 miles on the original trany. I "change NOT flush" fluid/filter every 35,000 miles or so.

[Africa]

Im curious about this as well. Was this the first time you did a fluid/filter change? I just bought my car a little over a month ago and it has 176K miles on it. I have no idea the previous maintenance history on it and dont know if the trans fluid has ever been changed. I can tell you the color of the fluid is not brown but red with a brownish tint. Several people have told me that if the fluid has not been changed or changed regularly then to leave it alone. They say that if i go and change it then my transmission is likely to go out within a short period of time. Something to do with the acid in the new fluid will mess up the gears and internals. I know that clean fluid is the only way to prolong the life of an automatic transmission so i dont know what to do. Im just afraid if i do change the fluid that i will mess something up. As of right now, my tranny seems fine. What should i do in my case?
Sorry for the thread jack but this is something that i have been curious about.
It's all good, we're all learning. I too will need to know the answer to this eventually right.


And to Brian: Mine has 190k Kilometers so I should be good for atleast 100k more I am thinking right? Pics of your 95 540i automatic? It's the same as mine and I would like to compare haha. One question I have for you is how much do you really feel the 290hp and supposed 300 ft.lbs torque, you know, it being automatic and all, does it still perform like the standard transmission type in terms of power? I'm asking this because I havn't actually test driven the car yet myself, only my dad and we were carefull to not go very fast in case of slip(canadian winters ugh).

[zubbie]

One thing to be aware of is the 540 auto valve body flaw. A plastic check ball can wear and get sucked into a port in the valve body. Google search it for more info

[bdejong11129]

Brian... just curious, was your change at 190k your first ever ATF change for the tranny? If so, was it done as preventative maintenance or were you experiencing problems?

And if it was your first fluid change, I wonder if doing another drain/refill will help to get even more of the old crap out.

AFAIK it was the first fluid change, I have all the previous owners records and there was no mention of any fluid changes. They were both marketing types and not really big into doing their own work so I don't think they did it themselves either.

There is a lot of hearsay on the boards about change of fluid = failure and basically its all pure crap. Most people that had this happen to them were going to experience a failure either way.

For me, my transmission was operating just fine. Reverse is smooth, forward gears are smooth and the shifts are nice in auto and firm in sport modes.

I changed the fluid because I don't buy the whole lifetime fluid idea. I dont care how good the fluid is, it is not meant to last forever. Look at tit this way. I could probably get 50k on a single oil change, but I wouldn't want to look inside the engine after I did that.

My fluid was more of a brown/tan color when it came out. A slight burnt aroma but the transmission parts I saw still looked very clean. i think that not having a fill tube as a possible source of contamination is a good thing.

I also did not use the expensive BMW fluid. Just to costly, I used the castrol multi-import ATF. It conforms to both of the specs for the fluids used inthe 5HP30 transmission so its good enough for me.

I am a realist about the automatic transmission. I have 196,000 miles and some change on it now. I really don't care how many more I get out of it, 200k is pretty good for an automatic given the way it operates right now. I do expect it to go a lot longer since I don't regularly beat the crap out of my car.:D

Waht is MOST IMPORTANT, and I cant stress this enough is the the filling procedure. DO NOT shortcut the steps and do it exactly as described.

DO NOT fill it while the front is up on ramps.
DO NOT fill it when it is cold
DO NOT rush the fill procedure.
DO NOT fill without the car running.

DO fill it when it is level.
DO fill it when it is at the described temperatures.
DO take you time filling it. It will take a little time to get it all in there.
DO fill with the car running.

I think that most problems come from improper fill of the transmission. it took three cycles of pumping it in, installing the fill plug, running it through the gears, and repeating those steps to get it all full.

I have seen links to local(North Carolina) shops that rebuild the 5HP30 and sell them for 1400.00. So if I want to keep the car I will just put a new one in when the time comes, but seriously I don't see that happening anytime soon. The transmission in mine is smoother and more responsive than my new car.

And this is only for the 540 transmission not the GM tranny that is found in the other models. I don't know anything about them since I don't own one. I just know that the 5HP30 is a very stout transmission and is rated for much more than the 540 puts out so it should last if properly maintained.

Yes, a long post, but hopefully it helps. AND DONT F-UP THE FILL.


One question I have for you is how much do you really feel the 290hp and supposed 300 ft.lbs torque, you know, it being automatic and all, does it still perform like the standard transmission type in terms of power? I'm asking this because I havn't actually test driven the car yet myself, only my dad and we were carefull to not go very fast in case of slip(canadian winters ugh).

There are several modes the transmission can run in. In Auto/Eco mode there is enough power to drive around and pass cars and all but it will shift early to help conserve fuel.

Pull it back to 4 so the dash reads S4 and all hell breaks loose. This is one of the three the sport modes and it will feel like a whole new car. Those who have not driven one in these modes really need to so that they can feel why the automatic is no big loss in fun.

The program for the Sport modes keep the engine well into the power band and run it all the way to redline before the shifts. It also keeps the torque converter locked up so if you let off the throttle it feels just like a manual and when you plant it back down it takes right off again.

It will go from cruising speed to top speed in no time flat. Of course, your engine has to be in good running order..

There are other real nice features of the automatic and before anyone smart ass states that "having a computer shift for you makes you a disconnected driver" they need to take a look at all the other computers under the hood that make the engines run the way they do.:stickoutt

So I am sure that I feel all of what the engine can still produce given its age.

[xatlas0]

So I made a thread about my 94' 540i purchase a few days ago, I was just wondering, since it is an automatic, how much more am I looking to spend on repairs and what not since automatic transmissions are more complex and cost more to repair. Thanks.

Technically, your car will have an automatic transmission failure eventually due to a significant design flaw, specifically the reverse check ball in the valve body.

A good rebuild for the 5HP30 (your trans) will run ~5k out the door. (assuming you have the install done at a shop) The trans itself is about 2500$ (US) to start, the labor is ~1500$ (US), and the fluid is another ~500$ (US). I know this because I have had it done, and quoted for by several (~10) places.

I also have the ZF manual for the 5HP30, and I can tell you now, you need many, many special tools to rebuild it. It isn't like a Powerglide that you can rebuild in the garage.

In fact, there are only three places I would consider getting a rebuild 5HP30 from, after going through the whole experience once: Kurt Koeller of Autosport Unlimited, European Transmissions in Cumming, GA, and a ZF direct rebuilt unit from BMW. I have yet to hear of a good rebuilt experience from anywhere else.

In comparison, the manual boxes are quite hardy, although the synchros are a bit on the weak side. Unfortunately, they (BMW or Getrag) do not sell the internal components for the transmission, making it an "all or nothing" proposition. Used boxes range from 500$ (US) to more than 1500$ (US). Rebuilt units from BMW (Getrag) run ~6k (US).

So, yes, even with careful upkeep of the trans, it is a ticking time bomb. It may not blow today, it may not blow tomorrow, but it will blow eventually. As others have said, changing the fluid can help, assuming you change it and the filter at regular (~40-60k miles) intervals. Also, to prevent the major failure, you can rebuild the valve body for a much more reasonable cost, or swap in a rebuilt valve body.

[bdejong11129]

Saying it is a ticking time bomb is like stating that the engine WILL eventually fail since it has a significant design flaw - bearings and wear surfaces. Or better yet, the significant design flaw is the driver in it and the other around it that will eventually crash it.

Lets be a little less dramatic shall we. the cars are all around 15 years old. the fact they still run is a testament to their design. the endless arguments about the failbox, autotragic, ect are far to overplayed.

There are several sources for transmission that will probably outlive most of our use of the car. there are also several sources for a valuve body rebuild kit that requires NO special tools and can be done by most competent people. Cost is about 200.00 and even including the fluid, filter and gaskets is still just as cheap if not less than replacing a clutch.

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/356031

A 5k rebuild is complete BS, just because I can find a shop to charge me 800.00 to change an intake gasket doesnt mean that its the only game in town. Do a basic search and there are several out there that will give you a completely rebuilt transmission for under 2k. Install is a breeze and most of these will come with rebuilt torque converters and a warranty. Or, I can go to a bone yard and pull one for a few hundred, but then again I take the same risk as anyone with a manual that it may be no good.

[Africa]

Saying it is a ticking time bomb is like stating that the engine WILL eventually fail since it has a significant design flaw - bearings and wear surfaces. Or better yet, the significant design flaw is the driver in it and the other around it that will eventually crash it.

Lets be a little less dramatic shall we. the cars are all around 15 years old. the fact they still run is a testament to their design. the endless arguments about the failbox, autotragic, ect are far to overplayed.

There are several sources for transmission that will probably outlive most of our use of the car. there are also several sources for a valuve body rebuild kit that requires NO special tools and can be done by most competent people. Cost is about 200.00 and even including the fluid, filter and gaskets is still just as cheap if not less than replacing a clutch.

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/356031

A 5k rebuild is complete BS, just because I can find a shop to charge me 800.00 to change an intake gasket doesnt mean that its the only game in town. Do a basic search and there are several out there that will give you a completely rebuilt transmission for under 2k. Install is a breeze and most of these will come with rebuilt torque converters and a warranty. Or, I can go to a bone yard and pull one for a few hundred, but then again I take the same risk as anyone with a manual that it may be no good.
THanks for making me feel a little better, especially after reading the post above yours, my car is a 94 with 194k kiometers on it, or roughly 120 k miles. I think I am atleast safe for anoth 50000 miles to say the least, provided I put in about 1000$/year maintenance etc.

[upallnight]

Wish that was true. Many have had failures without warning even after proper care. Even so, I am at 179,000 miles on the original trany. I "change NOT flush" fluid/filter every 35,000 miles or so.

I do a change every two years and a filter change every other change. Got 177,000 miles on her and still shift like the day I brought her. No slips and no bang into gears.

[T444E]

Ditto, I did a drain, filter change and fluid fill on mine when it has about 190k on it, 6,000 miles later still purring along just fine. And, NO you will not "get bent over" when it fails. they can be found for around 500-800 used and for 1400 you can get a fresh rebuild with warranty and all. Maybe 1400 is getting bent over to some, but a manual swap will dent you wallet more than that.

1400 for the rebuild. Then another 500$ for the install. That is getting bent over.

[E34ührer]

I have seen links to local(North Carolina) shops that rebuild the 5HP30 and sell them for 1400.00. So if I want to keep the car I will just put a new one in when the time comes, but seriously I don't see that happening anytime soon. The transmission in mine is smoother and more responsive than my new car.


If you go to AAMCO, then yes...it will cost much less than a factory re-man. If you buy a factory re-man, it's expensive. I wouldn't want an AAMCO/tranny shop rebuild in my car. Buy one used and hope for good luck, or buy a factory re-man and know you won't have any issues.

5 speed swap costs more than $1400??? I do all my own work, so I don't know if you are including labor in this price, but I am pretty sure you can swap to a 5 speed for around the same price if not cheaper. 5 speeds are a dime a dozen, and all the other parts should be EASY to find in a junkyard. (pedals, etc...)

[xatlas0]

Saying it is a ticking time bomb is like stating that the engine WILL eventually fail since it has a significant design flaw - bearings and wear surfaces. Or better yet, the significant design flaw is the driver in it and the other around it that will eventually crash it.

Lets be a little less dramatic shall we. the cars are all around 15 years old. the fact they still run is a testament to their design. the endless arguments about the failbox, autotragic, ect are far to overplayed.

There are several sources for transmission that will probably outlive most of our use of the car. there are also several sources for a valuve body rebuild kit that requires NO special tools and can be done by most competent people. Cost is about 200.00 and even including the fluid, filter and gaskets is still just as cheap if not less than replacing a clutch.

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/356031

A 5k rebuild is complete BS, just because I can find a shop to charge me 800.00 to change an intake gasket doesnt mean that its the only game in town. Do a basic search and there are several out there that will give you a completely rebuilt transmission for under 2k. Install is a breeze and most of these will come with rebuilt torque converters and a warranty. Or, I can go to a bone yard and pull one for a few hundred, but then again I take the same risk as anyone with a manual that it may be no good.

There is a large difference between wear surfaces and an actual component that fails before everything else because it is designed improperly. The reverse check ball is the latter. You know how overbuilt the rest of the thing is. Heck, they used the same trans behind V12 Aston-Martins and Jaguar R variants. It is a heck of a trans, aside from this flaw, present only in the early adopters, namely BMW.

I didn't say rebuilding the valve body requires special tools, it doesn't. It is a pretty simple job, although it is very easy to lose a bearing here or spring there when it is apart. Rebuilding the entire transmission, that does require special tools.

I also didn't say the rebuild is 5k. It may be 5k for a ZF reman unit from BMW, but the majority of good rebuild experiences I have heard about usually run in the 2500$ range for the unit itself. Once you throw in shipping, fluid, and install, you are looking at between 4 to 5k. I have been there, done that.

I also have a trans from two of those under 2k rebuilders and it hasn't worked right ever since. Even with the warranty, most don't cover install, so I've paid for that twice, too. That is why I listed the only quality ZF rebuilders I have been able to find. Others have had similar experiences. There is a reason those places have a good reputation, whereas the others do not.

I was not being dramatic, I was trying to be as factual as possible.

[E34ührer]

Lets be a little less dramatic shall we. the cars are all around 15 years old. the fact they still run is a testament to their design. the endless arguments about the failbox, autotragic, ect are far to overplayed.

It's a FACT that the auto's fail MUCH more frequently than the 5/6 speeds. Can you deny it? I have owned 7 E34's now, (running, driving E34's...no parts cars) and 5 of them were 5 speeds. No problems. The other two BOTH had transmission issues during the time I owned them. I see that as a testament to how bad they are. Do a search on this forum for transmission issues....you won't find any threads titled "help my 5 speed trans broke" or "5 speed blew up"


A 5k rebuild is complete BS, just because I can find a shop to charge me 800.00 to change an intake gasket doesnt mean that its the only game in town.

And just because you can find a tranny shop to 'rebuild' yours for $XXX doesn't mean that the work is quality. (See comment below xatlas0's quote)



I also have a trans from two of those under 2k rebuilders and it hasn't worked right ever since. Even with the warranty, most don't cover install, so I've paid for that twice, too. That is why I listed the only quality ZF rebuilders I have been able to find. Others have had similar experiences. There is a reason those places have a good reputation, whereas the others do not.

I was not being dramatic, I was trying to be as factual as possible.

On one of my autos...I got the trans rebuilt for $1265 by a 'good reputation' (ZF "specialty" according to them) transmission shop. It didn't work right at all after that. The only word I can use to describe the shifts it made is 'violent'. My wife's 100k Accord sh!tbox shifted smoother. The second auto e34 around, I bought a factory reman'd auto and installed it myself. My dad still drives that car today...with no trans issues...(replaced tranny at 91k, he is at 180k today)

IMHO, when buying a BMW automatic transmission....you get what you pay for.

[bdejong11129]

1400 for the rebuild. Then another 500$ for the install. That is getting bent over.

How do you figure that one? 500 for an install, do it yourself, its far less complicated than a 6 speed swap and no more complicated than most repairs on these cars.

Plus 1400 for one of the main components of the car is not bad. I have seen 6 speed transmissions USED go for that much let alone all the other components that are required to make the swap work correctly.

Again, lets end the drama on the whole automatic thing. Show me some real hard facts first.

And the checkball, again lets be real here, they identified that it MIGHT happen, kudos to them, its an easy fix that can be done with the transmission in the car and the cost is not that much. I have seen people here spend far more on a set of torn and abused sport seats for the car so 200 + materials to refit a transmission is not an issue in my eyes.

DIY install of new transmission.
2500 for a good rebuilt transmission + 300 for shipping + 50.00 for fluid + 50.00 for filter + 17.00 for gasket + 20.00 for exhaust gaskets does not equal 5000.00

Frankly I am in the mindset that if you cant do something as simple as install an automatic transmission then the E34 may not be the right car for you. What are you going to do when the clutch needs to be replaced? that one will set you back a pretty penny at ANY shop.

Sorry but the math does not add up.

[T444E]

How do you figure that one? 500 for an install, do it yourself, its far less complicated than a 6 speed swap and no more complicated than most repairs on these cars.

Plus 1400 for one of the main components of the car is not bad. I have seen 6 speed transmissions USED go for that much let alone all the other components that are required to make the swap work correctly.

Again, lets end the drama on the whole automatic thing. Show me some real hard facts first.

And the checkball, again lets be real here, they identified that it MIGHT happen, kudos to them, its an easy fix that can be done with the transmission in the car and the cost is not that much. I have seen people here spend far more on a set of torn and abused sport seats for the car so 200 + materials to refit a transmission is not an issue in my eyes.

DIY install of new transmission.
2500 for a good rebuilt transmission + 300 for shipping + 50.00 for fluid + 50.00 for filter + 17.00 for gasket + 20.00 for exhaust gaskets does not equal 5000.00

Frankly I am in the mindset that if you cant do something as simple as install an automatic transmission then the E34 may not be the right car for you. What are you going to do when the clutch needs to be replaced? that one will set you back a pretty penny at ANY shop.

Sorry but the math does not add up.

Atlas did show you facts; apparently you chose to ignore them.

Since when is installing a transmission "simple?" I wish I could live in your world and have your mindset.


How do you figure that one? 500 for an install, do it yourself, its far less complicated than a 6 speed swap and no more complicated than most repairs on these cars.


Not everyone has the time, space and tools/equipment to change a transmission.

[bdejong11129]

[QUOTE:MeanM50]
It's a FACT that the auto's fail MUCH more frequently than the 5/6 speeds. Can you deny it? I have owned 7 E34's now, (running, driving E34's...no parts cars) and 5 of them were 5 speeds. No problems. The other two BOTH had transmission issues during the time I owned them. I see that as a testament to how bad they are. Do a search on this forum for transmission issues....you won't find any threads titled "help my 5 speed trans broke" or "5 speed blew up"
[/QOUTE]

Nope, quick search returned two...:)

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=888062&highlight=5+speed+transmission+trouble

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=856469&highlight=5+speed+transmission+trouble

Lets also keep in mind that I am only talking about the 540 transmission not the others. I dont know anything about them and frankly dont care, only the 540...

As far as price. I will admit, I have no proof either way who is good or bad so I cant really say. I am going only by what I have read on other forums and from other peoples experience. I do not thik I would go to the local AAMACO or good-ol-boy transmission shop, but then again I dont see a future need for one yet. Either way, I am sure there are good ones out there and hopefully if and when I need one I will choose wisely.:D

[T444E]

[QUOTE:MeanM50]
It's a FACT that the auto's fail MUCH more frequently than the 5/6 speeds. Can you deny it? I have owned 7 E34's now, (running, driving E34's...no parts cars) and 5 of them were 5 speeds. No problems. The other two BOTH had transmission issues during the time I owned them. I see that as a testament to how bad they are. Do a search on this forum for transmission issues....you won't find any threads titled "help my 5 speed trans broke" or "5 speed blew up"
[/QOUTE]

Nope, quick search returned two...:)

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=888062&highlight=5+speed+transmission+trouble

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=856469&highlight=5+speed+transmission+trouble

Lets also keep in mind that I am only talking about the 540 transmission not the others. I dont know anything about them and frankly dont care, only the 540...

As far as price. I will admit, I have no proof either way who is good or bad so I cant really say. I am going only by what I have read on other forums and from other peoples experience. I do not thik I would go to the local AAMACO or good-ol-boy transmission shop, but then again I dont see a future need for one yet. Either way, I am sure there are good ones out there and hopefully if and when I need one I will choose wisely.:D

Actually your search returned one. The second link, and I quote "New to the forum. I drive a 95 Metallic Grey 525i with a four speed auto trans (GM one)"

[bdejong11129]

Atlas did show you facts; apparently you chose to ignore them.

Since when is installing a transmission "simple?" I wish I could live in your world and have your mindset.

Not everyone has the time, space and tools/equipment to change a transmission.

I no more choose to ignore his facts than you choose to ignore my statement that changing an automatic transmission is not a hard job.

I recognize that he had issues with his rebuilds, does that automatically(no pun intended) me that they are all bad? NOPE.

All you need to change a transmission is basic tools, a jack, jack stands, and some time. Yes, it is really that simple. You dont need to have a dedicated workspace, jsut time. It is definitely far easier than a swap.:stickoutt


Actually your search returned one. The second link, and I quote "New to the forum. I drive a 95 Metallic Grey 525i with a four speed auto trans (GM one)"

Damn it Jim....Ok I concede that one. I am sure that if I search the other forums I would find one or two. Point still made, there are some..:stickoutt

[E34ührer]

It's a FACT that the auto's fail MUCH more frequently than the 5/6 speeds. Can you deny it? I have owned 7 E34's now, (running, driving E34's...no parts cars) and 5 of them were 5 speeds. No problems. The other two BOTH had transmission issues during the time I owned them. I see that as a testament to how bad they are. Do a search on this forum for transmission issues....you won't find any threads titled "help my 5 speed trans broke" or "5 speed blew up"


Nope, quick search returned two...:)

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=888062&highlight=5+speed+transmission+trouble

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=856469&highlight=5+speed+transmission+trouble



FAIL.....F-

And out of all the 'bad transmission' threads you searched, how many AUTO threads were there? Millions....end of story.


Lets also keep in mind that I am only talking about the 540 transmission not the others. I dont know anything about them and frankly dont care, only the 540...

The 540 and 530 autos are the same. And they are both pretty much a 5 speed version of the trans used in the 525/535.


It is definitely far easier than a swap.:stickoutt

Done a lot of 5 speed swaps?

[bdejong11129]

FAIL.....F-

And out of all the 'bad transmission' threads you searched, how many AUTO threads were there? Millions....end of story.


Come on, millions? I think not. Again, looking only at the 5HP30, I dont care about the GM versions used in all the others.



The 540 and 530 autos are the same. And they are both pretty much a 5 speed version of the trans used in the 525/535.


WHAT? Are you smoking something? I want some of that. To compare the transmission in the 525 to the one in the 540 is absolutely crazy....



Done a lot of 5 speed swaps?
[/QUOTE]

In fact, yes. I have done about 8 swaps in my lifetime on different vehicles. These range from just engine to complete drivetrain. I have swapped LT1 engines with the NV4500 manual transmission into a vehicle that used to have a simple 4 cyl and an automatic. I have swapped Ford rear ends on to Jeeps, I have done 4L60E swaps into S10s. So yes, I understand what it takes to do a swap. Have I done one on the E34, No, but the same principal applies.

You cant seriously tell me its easier to swap in a 5sp into a car with an auto than do a R&R of the auto in the same car. If you are then well, I cant fix that....:eyecrazy

[David325e]

If its the M20 auto I agree with Brian. If its the 540 tranny I agree with Mean. I had 260k on the original auto for my 525. Original fluid (or if it wasn't the fluid was at least 180k old). The tranny on my 540 was replaced at 87k.

[E34ührer]

Come on, millions? I think not. Again, looking only at the 5HP30, I dont care about the GM versions used in all the others.

Ok...you got me...not millions...just WAY more than manual tranny threads.




WHAT? Are you smoking something? I want some of that. To compare the transmission in the 525 to the one in the 540 is absolutely crazy....

I am smoking some 'trainwreck' today...and no you can't have any.:shifty There was a GM trans used in SOME models. But ZF was also used in 525/535 cars. (4HP22) And they are virtually the same trans as the 5HP30...just minus one speed...as I said. I know you 'don't care' about the transmissions you are comparing to, but do a little research before you open your flapper.[/QUOTE]


In fact, yes. I have done about 8 swaps in my lifetime on different vehicles. These range from just engine to complete drivetrain. I have swapped LT1 engines with the NV4500 manual transmission into a vehicle that used to have a simple 4 cyl and an automatic. I have swapped Ford rear ends on to Jeeps, I have done 4L60E swaps into S10s. So yes, I understand what it takes to do a swap. Have I done one on the E34, No, but the same principal applies.

So you are comparing putting an LT1 into a car it wasn't designed for to swapping a transmission in a car IT WAS designed for...with no custom fab, and no mickey mouse BS required?

I am glad you have a good knowledge of 'swaps' but it isn't tough to put a manual where an automatic was using OEM parts. Just time consuming.


You cant seriously tell me its easier to swap in a 5sp into a car with an auto than do a R&R of the auto in the same car. If you are then well, I cant fix that....:eyecrazy

I can't seriously tell you it is easier. I can tell you that the price (if you know where to shop) is similar. It comes down to preference too. If you WANT an auto...by all means replace it with an AUTO. Most guys that drive these cars don't WANT the auto though...so might as well swap the tranny...

[bdejong11129]

But ZF was also used in 525/535 cars. (4HP22) And they are virtually the same trans as the 5HP30...just minus one speed...as I said. I know you 'don't care' about the transmissions you are comparing to, but do a little research before you open your flapper.

Ok, lets not talk about checking facts until you have yours straight as well. according to the transmission application chart the 4HP22 was NOT used in the 525, so you sir should shut your flapper...

http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Bulletin/DTC.BMW/BMW%20transmissionfluidchard.pdf



The 540 and 530 autos are the same. And they are both pretty much a 5 speed version of the trans used in the 525/535.


Also take note that the 5HP30 was NOT used in the 530. This transmission was ONLY in the 540.




So you are comparing putting an LT1 into a car it wasn't designed for to swapping a transmission in a car IT WAS designed for...with no custom fab, and no mickey mouse BS required?

I am glad you have a good knowledge of 'swaps' but it isn't tough to put a manual where an automatic was using OEM parts. Just time consuming.


Look, that was only to state that I do understand swaps, and that putting a foreign engine and tranny in a vehicle is just as doable as putting one in a car that was designed to take it. More to support that the simplest of all would be to R&R the same piece of equipment.

[kalevera]

All you need to change a transmission is basic tools, a jack, jack stands, and some time. Yes, it is really that simple. You dont need to have a dedicated workspace, jsut time. It is definitely far easier than a swap.:stickoutt


I challenge anyone on this forum to R/I an E34/E32 5hp-30 using a jack, jack stands and basic tools.



Ok, lets not talk about checking facts until you have yours straight as well. according to the transmission application chart the 4HP22 was NOT used in the 525, so you sir should shut your flapper...


'88-'90 525i.



But ZF was also used in 525/535 cars. (4HP22) And they are virtually the same trans as the 5HP30...just minus one speed...as I said. I know you 'don't care' about the transmissions you are comparing to, but do a little research before you open your flapper.

Maybe in the sense that they are both manufactured by ZF and because they are automatics share some of the same design theory. The internals are quite different, the cases are quite different, the 5hp-30 is much more complex and has much heavier hard parts.

[E34ührer]

Ok, lets not talk about checking facts until you have yours straight as well. according to the transmission application chart the 4HP22 was NOT used in the 525, so you sir should shut your flapper...

http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Bulletin/DTC.BMW/BMW%20transmissionfluidchard.pdf



Don't know about the validity of this list...there is conflicting data on ZF's OWN APPLICATION CHART.

Also, 1989 and 1990 525's got a 4HP22....so suck it slooooooow.



Also take note that the 5HP30 was NOT used in the 530. This transmission was ONLY in the 540.

I agree...that was my mistake...some were 5HP18's and some were GM...my bad.


Look, that was only to state that I do understand swaps, and that putting a foreign engine and tranny in a vehicle is just as doable as putting one in a car that was designed to take it. More to support that the simplest of all would be to R&R the same piece of equipment.

No argument there. The easiest solution would be putting another auto there...I was merely commenting on the statement that 5 speed swaps cost way more...which they don't. So we both win...:buttrock

Look, I am not here to bust your balls. It's just a simple fact that the auto's are inferior to the manuals in E34's reliability wise. Doesn't matter how well the auto was taken care of or any of that...I have abused and neglected many miles on BMW 5 speeds and never once had to do any tranny work on a manual...the only cars I have owned that needed tranny service were E34 autos.

[bdejong11129]

I challenge anyone on this forum to R/I an E34/E32 5hp-30 using a jack, jack stands and basic tools.


You are on, if I end up doing mine I will do just that. Should be fun...:stickoutt




'88-'90 525i.


FFFFFFFFF, foiled again....damn internets....:nono



Maybe in the sense that they are both manufactured by ZF and because they are automatics share some of the same design theory. The internals are quite different, the cases are quite different, the 5hp-30 is much more complex and has much heavier hard parts.

Yes, I agree that ZF made them both, but the 5HP30 is way more stout than the 4HP22.




Don't know about the validity of this list...there is conflicting data on ZF's OWN APPLICATION CHART.

Also, 1989 and 1990 525's got a 4HP22....so suck it slooooooow.


Yeah, Kalavera beat you to the punch, the 4HP22 was indeed used in the 525 for a few years. Still no comparison to the 5HP30, in much the same way as not all of the 5sp transmission are the same. And no, I will not suck it, I will give you a electronic high five though



No argument there. The easiest solution would be putting another auto there...I was merely commenting on the statement that 5 speed swaps cost way more...which they don't. So we both win...:buttrock


Yeah, I love it when we all win....I dont think they cost way more, but they can sure add up depending on availability of parts.



Look, I am not here to bust your balls. It's just a simple fact that the auto's are inferior to the manuals in E34's reliability wise. Doesn't matter how well the auto was taken care of or any of that...I have abused and neglected many miles on BMW 5 speeds and never once had to do any tranny work on a manual...the only cars I have owned that needed tranny service were E34 autos.


Nah, no worries, I have balls of steel...After being in the Marines for 6 years and doing the things I have done in my life it would take way more than a forum argument to make me cry.:jedicryin

I still think that out of all the autos used in the E34, the 5HP30 is the best, even with the whole checkball issue, it will still take far more abuse than the others will. Since they only produced like 26,000 540's and like 500,000 of the others the data tends to get all mixed up.

[xatlas0]

Again, lets end the drama on the whole automatic thing. Show me some real hard facts first.

And the checkball, again lets be real here, they identified that it MIGHT happen, kudos to them, its an easy fix that can be done with the transmission in the car and the cost is not that much. I have seen people here spend far more on a set of torn and abused sport seats for the car so 200 + materials to refit a transmission is not an issue in my eyes.

DIY install of new transmission.
2500 for a good rebuilt transmission + 300 for shipping + 50.00 for fluid + 50.00 for filter + 17.00 for gasket + 20.00 for exhaust gaskets does not equal 5000.00

Frankly I am in the mindset that if you cant do something as simple as install an automatic transmission then the E34 may not be the right car for you. What are you going to do when the clutch needs to be replaced? that one will set you back a pretty penny at ANY shop.

Sorry but the math does not add up.

Installing an auto box, especially as one as heavy as the 5HP30, is anything but trivial. It isn't something I would particularly want to undertake without, at a minimum, a full lift setup and a trans caddy. The thing weighs too much and is too large to do anything else. While I am sure it is possible, it is pretty far from an ideal experience. Having had to perform an engine swap, transmission swap, and fuel injection conversion before, changing the 5HP30 is not a job I would particularly relish. Heck, I would consider the install costs wroth it, given what a pain the job is.

I am also of the midset that the proper fluid needs to be used, not just fluid that says it meets the same criteria, especially when there is no verification of this I have been able to find from an independent source. Having had to design this sort of device before, I am all too keenly aware of the importance of keeping the lubrication properties constant at the design point.

While I know my experiences do not make all cheap rebuilds bad, after having gone through the rebuild manual, I can understand why the cost is so high to do a good job. I can also understand how it would be much easier to do a cheap job if you skip some steps.

I would put the valve body flaw on par with crank walk in DSMs, poor seals in FI-ed roatary-s, Nikasil, and M-coupe diff mount issues. It is a known problem that does manifest. As you may have noticed, many auto 540s (E34, E39, and more than a few E32/E38s) have had their transmissions replaced between 50k and 100k miles. I have seen it in many of the FS ads on these boards, and even autotrader, ebay, other places. Just because the mean time to failure is longer doesn't give it a free pass as a problem. The fact that ZF issued a fix means they accepted it as an issue, and one that was their fault.

[bdejong11129]

You know, I was thinking about this on my commute home tonight and I realized that the one thing that usually gets me going is the "absolute" statements.

While I can accept that the 5HP30 has a recognized possibility of a fault with the check ball I hate the statement that you WILL have it fail for that. No one here can state with 100% certainty that they will ALL fail for the issue.

So I am not standing on my soapbox stating that the automatics are better than a manual or that they will never fail, its just the use of absolutes that bugs me into this kind of debate.

While I will conceed that the chance of having a 5HP30 that the reverse will fail is greater than others it is not an absolute that it will happen.

As far as the fluids are concerned, I believe that a company like Castrol is perfectly capable of making a transmission fluid in 2009 that is as good f not better that the fluid that was created by Texaco in 1995.
I think we could all agree that oils of today are as good if not superior in every way than oils made in 1995.

AS far as the rebuild, yes, I would never try one on my own since I have neither the knowledge or tools required to do so. I will agree 100% that the ZF transmission is in no way similar to the TH400 of the old days. BUt, I do think that there are reputable rebuild companies out there and as stated before I hate absolutes so I go with that thought and figure that there are good rebuild houses out there, the trick is in finding them.

So I will be asking you if the time comes who I should avoid and who I should use since you have direct experience.

And lastly, it is heavy, but that alone does not make it impossible. A floor jack and perseverance is what it may take. Now, of course if you have better equipment and tools then use them, but the lack of them should not make it impossible. I remember back in high school I changed the ening in my POS Honda without an engine hoist. Was it easy - no, was it fun - kind of, would I do it like that now - no. But it did get done.

[E34ührer]

While I can accept that the 5HP30 has a recognized possibility of a fault with the check ball I hate the statement that you WILL have it fail for that. No one here can state with 100% certainty that they will ALL fail for the issue.

No one said it will fail because of the check ball...the check ball was mentioned as being ONE of the MANY reasons that tranny dies. The bottom line is that all the autos suck. A large amount of them fail before 100k, and many shortly after that. The bottom line is the autos WILL fail sooner than expected, and it WILL cost a butt load to fix. (Fix properly that is.)


So I am not standing on my soapbox stating that the automatics are better than a manual or that they will never fail, its just the use of absolutes that bugs me into this kind of debate.

Don't like absolutes on teh interwebz? Might want to sell your computer.

As far as thinking the auto's in E34's are inferior to pretty much every other option available...well...it's absolutely true.:D

I do like these debates though. You are kinda fun to 'discuss' things with. You don't get all butt hurt...

[xatlas0]

You know, I was thinking about this on my commute home tonight and I realized that the one thing that usually gets me going is the "absolute" statements.

While I can accept that the 5HP30 has a recognized possibility of a fault with the check ball I hate the statement that you WILL have it fail for that. No one here can state with 100% certainty that they will ALL fail for the issue.

So I am not standing on my soapbox stating that the automatics are better than a manual or that they will never fail, its just the use of absolutes that bugs me into this kind of debate.

While I will conceed that the chance of having a 5HP30 that the reverse will fail is greater than others it is not an absolute that it will happen.

As far as the fluids are concerned, I believe that a company like Castrol is perfectly capable of making a transmission fluid in 2009 that is as good f not better that the fluid that was created by Texaco in 1995.
I think we could all agree that oils of today are as good if not superior in every way than oils made in 1995.

AS far as the rebuild, yes, I would never try one on my own since I have neither the knowledge or tools required to do so. I will agree 100% that the ZF transmission is in no way similar to the TH400 of the old days. BUt, I do think that there are reputable rebuild companies out there and as stated before I hate absolutes so I go with that thought and figure that there are good rebuild houses out there, the trick is in finding them.

So I will be asking you if the time comes who I should avoid and who I should use since you have direct experience.

And lastly, it is heavy, but that alone does not make it impossible. A floor jack and perseverance is what it may take. Now, of course if you have better equipment and tools then use them, but the lack of them should not make it impossible. I remember back in high school I changed the ening in my POS Honda without an engine hoist. Was it easy - no, was it fun - kind of, would I do it like that now - no. But it did get done.

Ok, I can understand your point, as far as absolutes go. However, barring any other kind of failure, the valve body is usually what happens, as it is due to the wear on an improperly-designed, constant-use internal part. It is the most common mechanical failure point I have seen or read about with the 5HP30, by a wide margin. It isn't like the 5HP24, where the primary clutch carriage shears due to too much torque. (didn't believe that one until I saw the shop pull out the carriage in lots of tiny parts. They mounted them on the wall like shark's teeth.) I'm not sure why they didn't just put in the same kind of check ball that the 5 other gears have, namely metal.

It isn't that the fluid is "better" or "worse" (I use the quotes as there are a variety of metrics used in any fluid-using design) it is that they are different from the original fluid. For example, lowering the viscosity should be a good thing, right? Well, if the viscosity drops too much, the check balls won't work, as the gaps in the channel are designed for a specific range of properties. The same thing can apply for the seals in the internal fluid pump, or the torque converter slip allowances, and so on. With something as complex as the 5HP30, it isn't a part, it is a system, a symphony of mechanical harmonies. Upsetting that harmony in any way, even while attempting to improve it by using "better" fluids, can only lead to problems, unless you are very lucky. I have seen it in many other systems, even on the E34.

As far as doing it on jackstands, they had better be pretty tall ones, as the bellhousing diameter is on the order of 18", if memory serves. It is a very large and difficult package to deal with. I have had to do work in sub-standard situations as well, and the quality of the work suffers for it. The E34 isn't terribly forgiving when it comes to sloppy work, the 540 especially. That's why I listed the good rebuild shops I have found, as every other place I have checked has been inferior.

[bdejong11129]

You know the 5HP24 is one monster that I do not understand. Its supposedly the "new" design of the 5HP30 but has a lower torque rating and weighs 50lbs less. Now not saying that lighter = weaker, but give my personal experience with the 5HP30 I would have thought they would have just addressed the one check ball issue and kept with the proven design.

Ha, I definitely am not looking forward to R&R'ing the transmission. In fact, I am hoping that the one I have will outlive the time I won the car.:D Its a perspective thing for me. While I love my car, it is just a car and they made plenty of them in all sorts of flavors.

I think its a decision we all face sooner or later, when the one big part fails and we have to take stock in what we really want out of the car. That would be a good topic for a thread; What is the one thing that you would not be willing to replace if it fails, or what would be the one thing that would make your current E34 a part out thread?

F-it, I will start one.....

Good discussion, "Butt hurt":D I have to remember that one...

[gricey]

Seems a good place to ask.

CAn us 530 people use the 5hp 18 from the e36?

[xatlas0]

Seems a good place to ask.

CAn us 530 people use the 5hp 18 from the e36?

You should be able to use the guts, but the bellhousings are different and integral to the case, as far as I am aware, so no.