new Eurosport TS?

[calibimmer]

Hey Everyone,

I was wondering if anyone has any news or is one of the people who are trying out the new TS kit Eurosport is putting out? I have been emailing back and forth with Josh and Thomas about the new kit. It is going to have a 2.1L Kenne Bell blower and be the exact same kit as before (cost and parts). The main question I have that they are skirting around is for tunning: Is conforti doing the modifying for the new blower or someone else?

I know 11,500 is a ton for a kit when you can pick up a turbo or s/c for much cheaper. I just really want a TS and knew that before this, Eurosport had a very solid kit. So does anyone have any other info on this?

Thanks,

Josh

[Shuasha]

He won't sell many if he keeps the price up there. I think the reason for the old high price was the low availability of the blower the kit was designed around.

[calibimmer]

Thats the same thinking I had for the old price. I was suprised to see the price at the same point for the new kit. Especially since it is new, I thought they would have an intro price to try and get people back into a TS kit. I think I am going to hold off to see how it shakes out.

[pbonsalb]

They should make the kit for newer cars. There is a limited market for $11,000 supercharger or turbo kits for $11,000 cars. But using KB is a good idea for reliable parts and service sourcing.

[///M3///M5]

Hey Everyone,

I was wondering if anyone has any news or is one of the people who are trying out the new TS kit Eurosport is putting out? I have been emailing back and forth with Josh and Thomas about the new kit. It is going to have a 2.1L Kenne Bell blower and be the exact same kit as before (cost and parts). The main question I have that they are skirting around is for tunning: Is conforti doing the modifying for the new blower or someone else?

I know 11,500 is a ton for a kit when you can pick up a turbo or s/c for much cheaper. I just really want a TS and knew that before this, Eurosport had a very solid kit. So does anyone have any other info on this?

Thanks,

Josh

The cat is partially poking her head out of the bag. Eurosport has some exciting things to announce in the near future, so keep your eyes peeled. This being one of them, I will speak to it a little for now.

There are already several orders for the new TS and it is nearing the end of a production run. What could turn out to be one of the last. Josh is right though, the kit is upgraded (substantially). It now contains a Kenne Bell 2.1L (higher reving, higher displacement, more proven, more robust) twin screw charger. That is not the only substantial upgrade. The kit will also include a new custom in-house engineered and designed front nose drive and crank case. The nose drive/front case is now a one piece assembly with integrated sight glass, dipstick, and larger oil capacity. These improvements along with declining demand for premium forced induction products in the E36 market justified the price. The output and the tuning of the kit is intended to be the exact same as before.

That being said, you can find the remainder of the kit info and contact information on Eurosport's website (http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com).

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

This "upgrade" sounds very nice... but I agree about the price. At least you will get more for your money with the new kenne bell blower.

[stimpee]

Sounds like a bunch of great improvements. Hopefully the TS has better luck this time around.

That being said, and I am sure I probably shouldn't say this considering the history, but is all of the hard work he is putting into this revised kit, and whatever other developments he is working on, the reason why he is unable to answer questions and help solve problems for those that bought the first gen kit? :dunno

[///M3///M5]

Sounds like a bunch of great improvements. Hopefully the TS has better luck this time around.

That being said, and I am sure I probably shouldn't say this considering the history, but is all of the hard work he is putting into this revised kit, and whatever other developments he is working on, the reason why he is unable to answer questions and help solve problems for those that bought the first gen kit? :dunno

The latter will be addressed shortly as well, but I don't think the real rationale or reasons behind the poor customer service should be of public discussion. The solution(s) should be.

To my personal knowledge, I do not know of any outstanding issues with kits or customers of Eurosport. If there are, feel free to email the address posted on the website as there is someone available on a daily basis to answer questions now.

[stimpee]

Let me be clear, I am NOT trying to stir sh*t here, as I have NO business interest in the BMW FI aftermarket and NO activity in the BMW aftermarket, nor do I intend to. Anything I do, or do not do with BMW's and FI is for FUN and challenge from here forward.

My point here is in trying to help people and have some fun. And in this case I am trying to point out that there have been threads, and even recent ones (Johno's threads and issues are the biggest ones recently), where people have emailed, called, etc and received NO response. If that has been corrected, that is wonderful. However people obviously need to be confident that they will have downstream support, whether it is for questions, parts, troubleshooting, etc.

So, if you are stating that those problems have been corrected, I think that is great, as that was not the case 3-4 weeks ago.

[jmc]

I like it. Is the new blower going to run the same psi as the original kit? I would think that at that lower boost the blower wont be in its sweet spot. There well be plenty of room for growth though:evil2

JMC

[Mad Dog 20/20]

Sounds like da bomb. I have always loved Eurosport's approach to these things in terms of the no-compromise OE-like quality.
Great kit, but $11.5k is mad steep for these cars these days.

[///M3///M5]

Let me be clear, I am NOT trying to stir sh*t here, as I have NO business interest in the BMW FI aftermarket and NO activity in the BMW aftermarket, nor do I intend to. Anything I do, or do not do with BMW's and FI is for FUN and challenge from here forward.

My point here is in trying to help people and have some fun. And in this case I am trying to point out that there have been threads, and even recent ones (Johno's threads and issues are the biggest ones recently), where people have emailed, called, etc and received NO response. If that has been corrected, that is wonderful. However people obviously need to be confident that they will have downstream support, whether it is for questions, parts, troubleshooting, etc.

So, if you are stating that those problems have been corrected, I think that is great, as that was not the case 3-4 weeks ago.

With respect to the former, I know your intentions are not malicious.

Being corrected. I don't think anyone presently at Eurosport, nor anyone who has been there over the years denies the lack of or poor customer support over the past year or so, but it is something actively being addressed and fixed.

We certainly don't expect a slate whiped clean or a trek free of criticism due past actions, so we will address issues as they come up and be as forthright about the solutions and improvements as we can be and along with that look forward to re-establishing ourselves as a top firm in the industry.


I like it. Is the new blower going to run the same psi as the original kit? I would think that at that lower boost the blower wont be in its sweet spot. There well be plenty of room for growth though:evil2

JMC

Thanks Joe!

It will run roughly the same PSI initially. Certainly more room for growth.


Sounds like da bomb. I have always loved Eurosport's approach to these things in terms of the no-compromise OE-like quality.

It is good that our design and engineering goal is appreciated and noted. Thanks Garrett.

[milKt]

:wave

[GG///M3]

Sounds like da bomb. I have always loved Eurosport's approach to these things in terms of the no-compromise OE-like quality.
Great kit, but $11.5k is mad steep for these cars these days.

Hit the nail on the head. For 11.5k someone could go turbo, and make boat loads more power.

[badmonkey]

Include a free copy of the DME Editor with every TS kit purchase!!

[Robstah]

Sounds like da bomb. I have always loved Eurosport's approach to these things in terms of the no-compromise OE-like quality.
Great kit, but $11.5k is mad steep for these cars these days.


They should make the kit for newer cars. There is a limited market for $11,000 supercharger or turbo kits for $11,000 cars. But using KB is a good idea for reliable parts and service sourcing.


Hey Everyone,

I was wondering if anyone has any news or is one of the people who are trying out the new TS kit Eurosport is putting out? I have been emailing back and forth with Josh and Thomas about the new kit. It is going to have a 2.1L Kenne Bell blower and be the exact same kit as before (cost and parts). The main question I have that they are skirting around is for tunning: Is conforti doing the modifying for the new blower or someone else?

I know 11,500 is a ton for a kit when you can pick up a turbo or s/c for much cheaper. I just really want a TS and knew that before this, Eurosport had a very solid kit. So does anyone have any other info on this?

Thanks,

Josh

But people have no problems dropping $40k on an extremely inferior kit that loses 100rwhp after a certain speed is hit.

[GG///M3]

Include a free copy of the Shark Edit with every TS kit purchase!!

Hmm that would be interesting.

[stimpee]

Hit the nail on the head. For 11.5k someone could go turbo, and make boat loads more power.

As has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum and others, sometimes it is not all about the AMOUNT of power. It is about the "character" of the power. While a well engineered and tuned turbo setup, at moderate power, can minimize (not eliminate) the "lag" (call it lag, boost threshold, non-linearity, rubber band effect, or whatever you want depending on the specific thing you are feeling), it will still exist in some manner. As the power levels go up, the non-linearity will increase. Don't misunderstand, the reason it is nonlinear is because the power, when it comes on, is massive.

The point is that the driving experiences are different, and SOME people will be willing to pay more, to experience the character and feel of a PD supercharger setup. I would, and did, to a stupid extent when you think about what I spent!!! :D

Even at 11-12k, there will likely still be SOME customers. It is a bit scary, as I look at the past and consider the cost of the TS kits then, and the fact that the cars were more expensive, and think that from a business perspective, this will probably not be a big win. From an engineering perspective, the TS is an awesome setup and excellent option for performance. From a business perspective, in the BMW market, it is certainly a very difficult sale to make.

But acknowledge that there are some people that dont WANT a turbo, or don't WANT a centrifugal supercharger.

I have looked over and over again at the centrif offerings for the E46M3 and seriously considered purchasing one, but I personally just cannot get past the section of the torque curve below 5k rpm. And I don't want the driving character of a turbo setup on my E46M3. That is just me. Different strokes, for different folks...

[Mad Dog 20/20]

As has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum and others, sometimes it is not all about the AMOUNT of power. It is about the "character" of the power.

From a business perspective, in the BMW market, it is certainly a very difficult sale to make.

But acknowledge that there are some people that dont WANT a turbo, or don't WANT a centrifugal supercharger.

I have looked over and over again at the centrif offerings for the E46M3 and seriously considered purchasing one, but I personally just cannot get past the section of the torque curve below 5k rpm. And I don't want the driving character of a turbo setup on my E46M3.

I hear you 110% and totally agree with everything you posted.

However, for the S52, the TS performance advantage vs. a centri is limited to sub-3.5k rpm. During "play time", sub-3.5k rpm performance is pretty much irrelevant.

Put differently, how many BMW owners would (or should) be willing to pay $4.5k to beef-up their $11k track/weekend car's sub-3.5k rpm performance? Unless one's "play time" consists of pulling stumps or towing a boat, it would seem to make very little sense to pay the $4.5k premium over a centri.

[hoyabob2003]

I agree with Stimpee...everyone is different with their wants, needs and means in regards to modifying their cars. If you want the most power you can make per $$, then go turbo (or buy a Mustang, not an E36). However as having been someone who has driven a "lag free" turbo E36 back to back with an ES TS E36, I can tell you that they are two different animals entirely.

The turbo (TRM stage I for those who care), when it finally starts making some boost and power, pushes you back in your seat starting at 2800 rpm. The TS starts pulling right off the line and keeps going from there.

Some people like the feeling you get when the boost hits and the car takes off. I like that feeling. Some people like their power to be instant and linear. I appreciate that, as well.

The choice as to what to buy is not as black and white as some of you seem to think. You can argue it any way you want. I am sure that some people will want this product. Kudos to you, Thomas and ES for bringing it back.

[GG///M3]

I agree with Stimpee...everyone is different with their wants, needs and means in regards to modifying their cars. If you want the most power you can make per $$, then go turbo (or buy a Mustang, not an E36). However as having been someone who has driven a "lag free" turbo E36 back to back with an ES TS E36, I can tell you that they are two different animals entirely.

The turbo (TRM stage I for those who care), when it finally starts making some boost and power, pushes you back in your seat starting at 2800 rpm. The TS starts pulling right off the line and keeps going from there.

Some people like the feeling you get when the boost hits and the car takes off. I like that feeling. Some people like their power to be instant and linear. I appreciate that, as well.

The choice as to what to buy is not as black and white as some of you seem to think. You can argue it any way you want. I am sure that some people will want this product. Kudos to you, Thomas and ES for bringing it back.

I dont think the TS keeps making power like your saying. If I remember correctly they kind of flaten out after 5,500-6k where even a centi blower keeps making power. Also as many have mentioned its 11,500 with out an install. For that kind of money that better net at least 500whp. Dont get me wrong like the Ts kits(and I respect stimpee's post), but not for that kind of money. :eyecrazy

[milKt]

But people have no problems dropping $40k on an extremely inferior kit that loses 100rwhp after a certain speed is hit.

:confused

Please advise.

[stimpee]

I hear you 110% and totally agree with everything you posted.

However, for the S52, the TS performance advantage vs. a centri is limited to sub-3.5k rpm. During "play time", sub-3.5k rpm performance is pretty much irrelevant.



If your metric for "performance" is based on driving a dyno, or just the WOT performance, or "racing" someone going up thru the gears, then your assessment is correct.

However based on my own personal experience, and the feedback from others, every other driving condition is where the TS really differentiates itself. The part throttle, midrange boost delivery and FEEL of the car is where it differentiates itself from both the centrif, and even in many ways from a turbo, and particularly as the power levels increase. Sure, a WOT run starting in 2nd or 3rd gear, the TS loses most of its advantage to the centrif within the first few seconds once you get past 5k rpm and then keep the revs up there.

However that is where my personal car spends about 0.00001% of its time on the street. The rest of the time, is spent in the part throttle zone where, IN MY OPINION (and my personal experience) the TS feels like a totally different animal from the centrifugally supercharged car.

That is more my point.

I don't drive a dyno, I drive a car, on real world streets, probably more in the low end and midrange rpms, and way short of WOT a very large percentage of the time I spend behind the wheel.

Does that make it worth $11.5k+ install? To many, the answer is probably no. To me, personally, it was, and is worth far more than that...

My kit on my E36 in the end probably ended up costing me close to $50k after all "profits" were considered!! :help

:lol

[Neil]

I dont think the TS keeps making power like your saying. If I remember correctly they kind of flaten out after 5,500-6k where even a centi blower keeps making power. Also as many have mentioned its 11,500 with out an install. For that kind of money that better net at least 500whp. Dont get me wrong like the Ts kits(and I respect stimpee's post), but not for that kind of money. :eyecrazy

FWIW, pretty decent comparison of twin screw and centrifugal here:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1349344&highlight=dyno+day+twin+screw

Neil
(very happily screwed)

[pbonsalb]

AA posted a dyno of its twinscrew versus its Rotrex C38 a couple of years ago. Dyno in this post:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16438964&postcount=2

This new Eurosport with the 2.1L blower (versus 1.6L or 1.7L for the old AA and ES twinscrews) should have a nicer top end, though maybe a little weaker bottom end. These things work great on Mustangs. KB has some nice kits for them. For daily driving, one would be far more entertaining than a centrifugal. A turbo, however, will wallop the TS in torque (or the centrifugal), once the turbo makes its boost. The TS advantage is at low rpm.

[Bimmerman535i]

So..... S54 swap or Eurosport Twin Screw....

Thanks guys for bringing the kit out again. Two local autocrossers are insanely fast with the TS (Tunnells and Faucetts) and have been singing its praises for years now.

Are there any plans to make a twin screw kit for an S54 / E46 M3?

[milKt]

Ess makes one for the e46
m54

[Bimmerman535i]

right, but that's won't bolt on to the S54

[milKt]

Just saying...

maybe they're messing with the S54

:dunno

[calibimmer]

The price vs power delievery has been me hung up every time I have tried to dive into FI. I love the linear power since this is my DD and I do not try and redline it every time I take off from a light. The only other kit I am possibly considering is the tt s2. There is a 3300 difference between the 2 kits. What is also hanging me up is that I live in Cali. If I can work with ES to come up with something similar to the ESS TS3 kit that was put on a 330, the TS kit became invisible. A turbo kit would require paying an extra "fee" to be smogged or removal. I would have purchased the ES kit long time ago if I had known it was going up so much in price. 11.5k for a car that is worth that or less is something that I really can't be behind unless I know for sure I will keep this car till it dies.

Any chance there is an intro price? LOL i know yeahh right but worth a shot

[ZHP]

Are there any plans to make a twin screw kit for an S54 / E46 M3?

ESS did some R&D on a TS kit for the S54 several years ago and decided there were too many compromises involved, primarily involving the ITBs (which they didn't want to eliminate), to make it worthwhile. As a result, we will probably never see a TS for the S54.


The kit will also include a new custom in-house engineered and designed front nose drive and crank case. The nose drive/front case is now a one piece assembly with integrated sight glass, dipstick, and larger oil capacity.

Very nice features!

[stimpee]

ESS did some R&D on a TS kit for the S54 several years ago and decided there were too many compromises involved, primarily involving the ITBs (which they didn't want to eliminate), to make it worthwhile. As a result, we will probably never see a TS for the S54.


I have heard this many times, but never seen any real evidence of what ESS did, or what issues they really ran into.

Granted, there are some significant barriers to making a TS work properly in a blow thru throttle configuration, but it has been done on other vehicles, even some factory configurations, with pretty good success.

I have toyed with the idea for several years now, and am actually working on some ideas right now. So, depending on my motivation level, and success, you might SEE a TS on an S54 for the fun and challenge of it. However you will not see a "kit" for a TS S54 from me. Been there, done that, not worth it.

[///36M]

Bidding 7000, Offering 8000.

I am going to estimate less than 15 kits sold at 11,500.

[tmaher]

The really sad part about this is that you can buy the 2.1l TS from Kenne Bell for peanuts! And full SC kits using the 2.1l for a Ford go from $3099 to $5499 - I can't help but think how because this is going on a BMW the price is getting more than doubled..

http://www.kennebell.net/pricelist/SC-PRICELIST.pdf

[Neil]

The really sad part about this is that you can buy the 2.1l TS from Kenne Bell for peanuts! And full SC kits using the 2.1l for a Ford go from $3099 to $5499 - I can't help but think how because this is going on a BMW the price is getting more than doubled..

http://www.kennebell.net/pricelist/SC-PRICELIST.pdf

These issues have been discussed many, many times.

Though the R&D costs are similar, the markets are very different. The economies of scale relative to Mustangs and E36 BMWs couldn't be more different.

Neil

[Bimmerman535i]

....that's a rather huge price increase. The blower costs $1899. Add the other non-custom parts needed and you're at maybe $4k all said and done.

Charging for the R&D work involved and the intercooler fab is one thing, but pricing yourselves so much higher is pointless. Lower the price and sell more kits (AA S2 is what, $7500 complete? And the TS has better power delivery and max power) instead of keep it astronomical and hope for a handful.


These issues have been discussed many, many times.

Though the R&D costs are similar, the markets are very different. The economies of scale relative to Mustangs and E36 BMWs couldn't be more different.

Neil

True, there are more Mustangs buying kits. Selling a kit for the E36 for $11k and change is hardly market conditions; many E36s run AAs kit which is $7500 for their top of the line version. Far more TS kits would be sold (i.e. more profit for ES) if the price was more in line with the other charger kits on the market. $8k and the things would fly off the shelves, metaphorically speaking.

[tmaher]

These issues have been discussed many, many times.

Though the R&D costs are similar, the markets are very different. The economies of scale relative to Mustangs and E36 BMWs couldn't be more different.

NeilI guess that if you eliminate Eurosport from the picture you could put together a 2.1l system for FAR less money that what Eurosport is charging. That's just a guess..

And justifying the huge price difference by saying it's a scale of economies is BS - So, because BMW owners might make more money, Eurosport is going to rape them? F them!

[///36M]

I guess that if you eliminate Eurosport from the picture you could put together a 2.1l system for FAR less money that what Eurosport is charging. That's just a guess..

And justifying the huge price difference by saying it's a scale of economies is BS - So, because BMW owners might make more money, Eurosport is going to rape them? F them!

I don't think you comprehend economies of scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_scale

[Neil]

I guess that if you eliminate Eurosport from the picture you could put together a 2.1l system for FAR less money that what Eurosport is charging. That's just a guess..

And justifying the huge price difference by saying it's a scale of economies is BS - So, because BMW owners might make more money, Eurosport is going to rape them? F them!

Economies of scale have nothing to do with the income of the end user; it's all about the size of the market. And, as has been pointed out, Eurosport has focussed on a very small (and shrinking) market.

Also, don't forget custom software, cast manifold and nose piece. None of this stuff is "off the shelf."

Finally, not only is your rape analogy way off base (since customers choose to purchase a Eurosport kit -- it's not forced upon them), but I assure you that no one -- at least in the BMW community -- has gotten rich peddling twin screws.

Neil

[tmaher]

My point was merely that the most expensive component is the SC itself and it is, from what I can tell, nearly identical (or exactly identical) to the other 2.1l units. So, why would the rest of the kit cost so much, i.e, what are you paying for? The intake is different, but is it worth $7k or so? I think this is where Eurosport is overcharging because of the brand and not because of the low volume. And I did say, this was a guess..

I just got off the phone with Kenne Bell inquiring whether they were aware of any companies using the Kenne Bell TS superchargers for BMW's and the answer was no. I'm not saying that Eurosport isn't using Kenne Bell, I'm saying I called Kenne Bell and they said they were not aware of any company currently using Kenne Bell for BMW's..

[calibimmer]

I also am very lost on the price since they have even admitted the software has not had a substantial change. Yes the R&D for the nose cone/front case has to have cost money but by pricing it so high they are loosing out on buyers like me who WILL pay a premium since the other kit I am looking at is 8k, but not willing to pay as much as a 2nd car. If anything I am dissappointed because I have been trying to get news on this kit for a long time and to hear its coming out but at the same steep price is nuts. First time it was because of hard to source blowers...now there is no reason I can see for the extremely large premium price point.

[abradic]

These issues have been discussed many, many times.

Though the R&D costs are similar, the markets are very different. The economies of scale relative to Mustangs and E36 BMWs couldn't be more different.

Neil

I can't imagine that the R&D is 50% cheaper for a Mustang. The major R&D with our M3 is probably in software, fuel delivery, etc...hardware is probably easiest and cheapest, it's getting it to work. You can sell 50 kits over 3 years for $11,500 or you can sell at least that in 1 year for $5500...probably even more than that. Make it adaptable to the Z3M, Z3 2.8, and 325/328 to broaden your customer base.

If you are going to charge the $11,500, then it should truly be COMPLETE. We're talking maximum psi (12?, 15?) for maximum power (450-500 whp+), and include wiseco pistons with eagle rods since you will have to lower compression. Much better than a hg to lower compression.

This TS really seems like an interesting way of FI. All 3 options on our cars have interesting features, TS allows for instant feel. I bet with some schrick cams you can improve that top end feel too. At $11,500 though, I can get the TT S2 kit, along with my internals (and that includes titanium springs too). I know the case has been made about preference of power delivery and I know the TS is high quality, but so is a TT S2 kit. It's the one kit that is priced 40% higher than everything else, so with that standout in price, it's going to be heavily scrutinized.

[ZHP]

$8k and the things would fly off the shelves, metaphorically speaking.

While this may seem odd, I wonder if that isn't the crux of the problem. I got the impression in the past that ES was, at times, having trouble keeping up with production. They're a small company with limited resources trying to produce a kit with lots of custom machine work (and the new kit only seems worse from the perspective of manual labor). Perhaps the high price is a way to throttle demand?

[Bimmerman535i]

Maybe, I don't know. It really seems like they want to not make and sell many of them.

[milKt]

:eatpop:

ALl of Josh's units will sell
despite the mute debate.

[ZHP]

I have heard this many times, but never seen any real evidence of what ESS did, or what issues they really ran into.

Granted, there are some significant barriers to making a TS work properly in a blow thru throttle configuration, but it has been done on other vehicles, even some factory configurations, with pretty good success.

I have toyed with the idea for several years now, and am actually working on some ideas right now. So, depending on my motivation level, and success, you might SEE a TS on an S54 for the fun and challenge of it. However you will not see a "kit" for a TS S54 from me. Been there, done that, not worth it.

Whatever their reasons, they decided they didn't want to continue development and bring it to market. Could have been as much a business decision as an engineering decision but of course you know that.

If you do decide to toy with a TS S54, please post a build thread for us to enjoy. :D

[stimpee]

My point was merely that the most expensive component is the SC itself ...

Wrong.

Depending on how you define "component", you could possibly be right, but if you look at multiple piece intake castings that require finish machining, tooling, etc, when you put that all together, this crap ends up costing a LOT of money.

Just imagine the cost of tooling. Let's say you spend $50k on manifold casting tooling (this is just ONE of the things to consider).

You sell 50 kits, that is 1k per kit for the tooling.

You sell 500 kits (never gonna happen for a 10-15 year old M3 no matter HOW you price it, but would probably easily happen for a Mustang), and your amortized tooling cost is $100 per kit.

Assess that difference over multiple components in a kit and see what it adds up to in cost to produce the kit for Mustang vs Bimmer.

Then look at the $1800 blower (or whatever it is). You buy them 10 at a time and you pay $1800, you buy them 50 at a time and you might pay $1500. You commit to buying 500+ of them in a year or so, and they might be under $1k each.

Big fricking difference.

Now look at your overhead. It takes the engineer a certain amount of time to engineer a kit. And it takes the software guy a certain amount of effort to engineer software. That might be $50k, $100k, $250k, whatever it costs (last I checked, engineers cost lot of money, since I am one, and have a bunch of them working for me as well). Now amortize that cost over 50 kits vs 500 kits vs 2000 kits or whatever.

You guys get so bent out of shape thinking you are getting @ss raped because you drive a BMW. If you are that bent, buy a frickin mustang, or produce your own kit and sell it for $4k.

If you had to engineer that kit from scratch, and you sold it for $4k, you would be out of business in a VERY VERY short time. If you copy someone else's design and produce it, you will be out of business in a VERY short time (vs VERY VERY).

I speak from a position of some knowledge on this, and if you think I am incorrect, prove me wrong. Don't expect me to bail your @ss out when you go under though...

And furthermore, while ES's price on this kit probably IS more than almost anyone will be willing to bite off given alternatives, you have to realize that a "no compromises" approach costs a LOT of money, and is reflected in the price. As I said previously, it might not be a wise business decision to take that approach, but Josh is free to do as he pleases for his business. I would maintain that NOT designing to some cost objective given market factors is a major failure that MANY engineers make. Every program I have ever worked on has some cost limitations imposed on it, and if you don't meet them, you have no product.

But the market will decide that...

[milKt]

Lemme get some more popping corn.

:eatpop:

[tmaher]

Wrong.

Depending on how you define "component", you could possibly be right...Then why did you start off with "Wrong" ?

See, in this hypothetical kit using the Kenne Bell 2.1l TS that Kenne Bell is unaware of - you can purchase the KB2 2.1l for $1899 right from Kenne Bell.. That gives you $9600 to come up with the rest of the kit.. Anyone here think it can't be done for $9600? I'm just curious to know.

Of course you'd have to minus the costs of the piping, software tune from your favorite shop, intercooler, etc, etc - But a lot of folks here know exactly what those costs are it would be interesting to see how much is left over to come up with an intake..

Ps. I'm just interested in seeing someone buy the Kenne Bell and beat the price on the ES 'kit' - I'm not even using a SC, I'm working on a turbo setup so.. I'm simply curious.

[stimpee]

Then why did you start off with "Wrong" ?

See, in this hypothetical kit using the Kenne Bell 2.1l TS that Kenne Bell is unaware of - you can purchase the KB2 2.1l for $1899 right from Kenne Bell.. That gives you $9600 to come up with the rest of the kit.. Anyone here think it can't be done for $9600? I'm just curious to know.

You didnt define "component", so based on your approach, and my desire to be Devil's advocate, I claim you are wrong!

:D

So you are saying that you have 9600 to do the rest of the kit. Is that component cost? So you don't desire to pay back your investment in development and tooling? Or cover your overhead? Or make any profit?

I am not going to argue this point anymore, as I have done it many times.

Just go ahead and do it if it is so clearly easy...

[///36M]

Then why did you start off with "Wrong" ?

See, in this hypothetical kit using the Kenne Bell 2.1l TS that Kenne Bell is unaware of - you can purchase the KB2 2.1l for $1899 right from Kenne Bell.. That gives you $9600 to come up with the rest of the kit.. Anyone here think it can't be done for $9600? I'm just curious to know.

Because more than likely you are incorrectly defining components.

I doubt it could be done with any discernible profit margin built in.

Think about it this way. Don't you think Eurosport wants to sell as many kits as possible? With a few exceptions, selling more of something with less margin will lead to larger profits.

I posted the link to the wiki writeup on economies of scale already. It's a decent little writeup, you would do well to read it.

[tmaher]

So you are saying that you have 9600 to do the rest of the kit. Is that component cost? Yes - after you buy the TS from Kenne Bell you are left with $9600 to put the rest of the kit together and have it tuned and running.

Why are you so mad though?

[ADVANT123]

Wrong.

Depending on how you define "component", you could possibly be right, but if you look at multiple piece intake castings that require finish machining, tooling, etc, when you put that all together, this crap ends up costing a LOT of money.

Just imagine the cost of tooling. Let's say you spend $50k on manifold casting tooling (this is just ONE of the things to consider).

You sell 50 kits, that is 1k per kit for the tooling.

You sell 500 kits (never gonna happen for a 10-15 year old M3 no matter HOW you price it, but would probably easily happen for a Mustang), and your amortized tooling cost is $100 per kit.

Assess that difference over multiple components in a kit and see what it adds up to in cost to produce the kit for Mustang vs Bimmer.

Then look at the $1800 blower (or whatever it is). You buy them 10 at a time and you pay $1800, you buy them 50 at a time and you might pay $1500. You commit to buying 500+ of them in a year or so, and they might be under $1k each.

Big fricking difference.

Now look at your overhead. It takes the engineer a certain amount of time to engineer a kit. And it takes the software guy a certain amount of effort to engineer software. That might be $50k, $100k, $250k, whatever it costs (last I checked, engineers cost lot of money, since I am one, and have a bunch of them working for me as well). Now amortize that cost over 50 kits vs 500 kits vs 2000 kits or whatever.

You guys get so bent out of shape thinking you are getting @ss raped because you drive a BMW. If you are that bent, buy a frickin mustang, or produce your own kit and sell it for $4k.

If you had to engineer that kit from scratch, and you sold it for $4k, you would be out of business in a VERY VERY short time. If you copy someone else's design and produce it, you will be out of business in a VERY short time (vs VERY VERY).

I speak from a position of some knowledge on this, and if you think I am incorrect, prove me wrong. Don't expect me to bail your @ss out when you go under though...

And furthermore, while ES's price on this kit probably IS more than almost anyone will be willing to bite off given alternatives, you have to realize that a "no compromises" approach costs a LOT of money, and is reflected in the price. As I said previously, it might not be a wise business decision to take that approach, but Josh is free to do as he pleases for his business. I would maintain that NOT designing to some cost objective given market factors is a major failure that MANY engineers make. Every program I have ever worked on has some cost limitations imposed on it, and if you don't meet them, you have no product.

But the market will decide that...

+1 Great post. Took me a VERY long time to understand this concept when I was younger.... but it is the truth....

Joe

[stimpee]

Yes - after you buy the TS from Kenne Bell you are left with $9600 to put the rest of the kit together and have it tuned and running.

Why are you so mad though?

Hang on here, are you talking about doing a DIY TS for under 11500 without trying to make money buy selling a kit?

Then maybe you have a chance.

If you are going to try to build and sell a kit, with a brick and mortar business and engineers to pay, etc, then forget about it.

Why am I so angry? Because I have had this "discussion", on multiple forums, with people making the same arguments as you probably a dozen times over the past few years, and it is always the same! People that havent done it say it is possible, and those of us that HAVE done it and failed to make money (and even failed to even closely recoup my investment) say it is not possible. And those who haven't done it refuse to listen to those of us who have.

So, you are suffering my wrath due to that!!!

:D

Sorry!!!!

[tmaher]

Because more than likely you are incorrectly defining components.

I doubt it could be done with any discernible profit margin built in.

I posted the link to the wiki writeup on economies of scale already. It's a decent little writeup, you would do well to read it.OK - Now you're just being immature. I explained myself with regards to my post about the economies of scale and I made it clear that I don't think it's economies of scale, despite what anyone is saying, I think it's merely BMW owners getting jacked. If you don't like my thought on that, then ignore it. K?

More than likely incorrectly defining components? How so? Do you not agree that the supercharger is a component? Please..

And lastly, why would a person building a kit for themselves be concerned with making a profit? The idea is to build it cheaper for yourself and save money. You comprehend that?

I don't think you have anything else to say now so stop jumping on some bandwagon trying to impress your internet friends..

[///M3///M5]

I think it would be a worthwhile effort to create "The Story of the Eurosport Twin Screw" and actually show the costs, time, engineering, build time, tooling, casting, flow modeling, parts sourcing, etc that went into the kit.

It would be a nice exercise to, at the same time, create the same (much truncated) version of "The Story of the XXX/YYY/ZZZ Turbo/Centri Kit".

I think Eurosport's in-house engineering component can somewhat attest to this "Story":

Crossroads Product Development (http://www.crossroadspd.com/index.html)

[tmaher]

Hang on here, are you talking about doing a DIY TS for under 11500 without trying to make money buy selling a kit?

Then maybe you have a chance.


Sorry!!!!YES! That was my point all along.. lol - I have no interest in selling TS kits.. I was merely pointing out how I truly think someone could put together a TS kit using the Kenne Bell s/c for less than $11,500.. Not to profit, but to save money! That's why I said after you buy the TS you have $9600 left to come up with the rest of the components, tune and build the intake. And I've seen folks build their own intakes for really, really cheap so I seriously think you can do it and have a very nice and reliable setup without going to ES.. but again, it was just a guess and I thought it would be interesting to see someone do it - why I said I was going turbo..

Now that we're clear on all that :)

[ADVANT123]

YES! That was my point all along.. lol - I have no interest in selling TS kits.. I was merely pointing out how I truly think someone could put together a TS kit using the Kenne Bell s/c for less than $11,500.. Not to profit, but to save money! That's why I said after you buy the TS you have $9600 left to come up with the rest of the components, tune and build the intake. And I've seen folks build their own intakes for really, really cheap so I seriously think you can do it and have a very nice and reliable setup without going to ES.. but again, it was just a guess and I thought it would be interesting to see someone do it - why I said I was going turbo..

Now that we're clear on all that :)

Unless you have some serious engineering/fabrication resources available to you, even that will be difficult.

[///36M]

OK - Now you're just being immature. I explained myself with regards to my post about the economies of scale and I made it clear that I don't think it's economies of scale, despite what anyone is saying, I think it's merely BMW owners getting jacked. If you don't like my thought on that, then ignore it. K?

More than likely incorrectly defining components? How so? Do you not agree that the supercharger is a component? Please..

And lastly, why would a person building a kit for themselves be concerned with making a profit? The idea is to build it cheaper for yourself and save money. You comprehend that?

I don't think you have anything else to say now so stop jumping on some bandwagon trying to impress your internet friends..
Your last quip will force me to respond....

First off, you are referring to elements of economies of scale when referencing build numbers and profit margins. So I think if you are trying to comprehend and discuss said elements of production, you should understand the underlying principles before randomly discussing them as if they are even theoretically possible.

I said stimpee was saying you were incorrectly defining components, as you haven't made a definition in which to frame your debate. I was correct, as while I was responding he said exactly that himself.

It seemed to me the topic was where was the extra 9600 bucks going in regards to the Eurosport kit, and its design and production, not a random member designing their own kit with the same blower. So I apologize, but in my defense, you never said that is what you were discussing and Stimpee made the same mistake I did.

I don't see any immaturity in my posts. This is an internet forum. I am not here to impress people.

[jmc]

just FYI kenne bell does not sell ts's seperately (at least last year). So you can't just call them up and get one. They sell them to current kit owners as upgrades or repairs hence the price. I know josh worked it out with one of the bells, so the guy at kb is wrong these blowers are being used with permision

Jmc

[badmonkey]

I don't think the posters thinking a TS system can be developed and sold for $4k know stimpee's involvement in the TS BMW application, judging by join dates.

[tmaher]

just FYI kenne bell does not sell ts's seperately (at least last year). So you can't just call them up and get one. They sell them to current kit owners as upgrades or repairs hence the price. I know josh worked it out with one of the bells, so the guy at kb is wrong.

JmcYou can buy Kenne Bell TS seperately now.. Here is the price list, scroll the page..

http://www.kennebell.net/pricelist/SC-PRICELIST.pdf


KB2.1B 1899.00 2.1 KB2.1P 1 30 2199.00 POLISHED 2.1 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6B 1 33 1999.00 BLACK 2.6 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6P 1 33 2299.00 POLISHED 2.6 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6HB 1 35 2099.00 BLACK 2.6H BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6HP 1 35 2399.00 POLISHED 2.6H BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8B 1 36 2199.00 BLACK 2.8 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8P 1 36 2499.00 POLISHED 2.8 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8HB 1 37 2399.00 BLACK 2.8H BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8HP 1 37 2699.00 POLISHED 2.8 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR2.4B 1 33 1699.00 BLACK 2.4 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR2.4P 1 33 1999.00 POLISHED 2.4 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR2.3 1 38 1899.00 LIGHTNING 2.3 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR1.33B 1 36 1499.00 BLACK 1.33 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR1.33P 1 36 1699.00 POLISHED 1.33 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR.87B 1 25 1399.00 BLACK .87 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR.87P 1 25 1599.00 POLISHED .87 SUPERCHARGER ONLY

JMC - I instantly thought of your custom TS - I called Kenne Bell, spoke with TJ and he said, I am not aware of anyone using our TS's for any BMW applications. He said "in the past Autorotor had done some but not since the E36 was new" i.e. Autorotor was bought by Kenne Bell from my knowledge so, call Kenne Bell and speak with TJ is all I can say.. I'm not doubting anything, just repeating what I was told by the manufacturer..


random gibrish.I never mentioned profit margins or anything like you're saying.. Thanks for apologizing though.. I guess.?

[jmc]

This is great news. The larger big bore blower is close to my 2l dimensionally. if I used autorotor I couldn't go bigger now maybe I can.

Jmc



You can buy Kenne Bell TS seperately now.. Here is the price list, scroll the page..

http://www.kennebell.net/pricelist/SC-PRICELIST.pdf


KB2.1B 1899.00 2.1 KB2.1P 1 30 2199.00 POLISHED 2.1 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6B 1 33 1999.00 BLACK 2.6 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6P 1 33 2299.00 POLISHED 2.6 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6HB 1 35 2099.00 BLACK 2.6H BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.6HP 1 35 2399.00 POLISHED 2.6H BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8B 1 36 2199.00 BLACK 2.8 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8P 1 36 2499.00 POLISHED 2.8 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8HB 1 37 2399.00 BLACK 2.8H BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
KB2.8HP 1 37 2699.00 POLISHED 2.8 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR2.4B 1 33 1699.00 BLACK 2.4 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR2.4P 1 33 1999.00 POLISHED 2.4 BIG BORE SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR2.3 1 38 1899.00 LIGHTNING 2.3 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR1.33B 1 36 1499.00 BLACK 1.33 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR1.33P 1 36 1699.00 POLISHED 1.33 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR.87B 1 25 1399.00 BLACK .87 SUPERCHARGER ONLY
AR.87P 1 25 1599.00 POLISHED .87 SUPERCHARGER ONLY

JMC - I instantly thought of your custom TS - I called Kenne Bell, spoke with TJ and he said, I am not aware of anyone using our TS's for any BMW applications. He said "in the past Autorotor had done some but not since the E36 was new" i.e. Autorotor was bought by Kenne Bell from my knowledge so, call Kenne Bell and speak with TJ is all I can say.. I'm not doubting anything, just repeating what I was told by the manufacturer..

[ADVANT123]

This is great news. The larger big bore blower is close to my 2l dimensionally. if I used autorotor I couldn't go bigger now maybe I can.

Jmc

:evil2 :nono

[tmaher]

This is great news. The larger big bore blower is close to my 2l dimensionally. if I used autorotor I couldn't go bigger now maybe I can.

JmcThat was exactly why I thought to pick up the phone and call. When we spoke at BMW Fest East you mentioned you had a custom 2l - Knowing it was the Autorotor and that Kenne Bell had bought Autorotor and was now offering larger displacements I thought that using the larger TS was totally possible. And although I want to go turbo, putting together a cheaper TS kit is not completely out of the question for me.. Especially since I know who can do the tune, I knwo what other components are needed besides the TS, the only hump is the intake..

[Neil]

Have no idea where you got notion that Kenne Bell bought Autorotor (other than from fact that he used to purchase the compressors used in his kits from them).

FWIW, this is from Opcon Autorotor's website:

_____________________

Opcon Autorotor AB was founded in 1990 and has been incorporated in the Opcon Group since then. Until 2004 Autorotor was involved in two areas, both based on screw compressor technology: development and production of screw compressors for overcharging of combustion engines, and development and production of air systems for fuel cell engines.

In 2004, the Opcon Group was reorganised into new business areas following the acquisition of four new companies. From the second half of 2005 until the end of 2008, Opcon Autorotor was specialised in the development of air supply systems for fuel cell applications.

At the end of 2008 the company was merged with fellow subsidiary Svenska Rotor Maskiner AB (SRM). Autorotor has been retained as the brand for air systems for fuel cell applications. The merger strengthens development and industrialisation opportunities for the company’s compressor-based systems.

Since 1990, when Opcon Autorotor AB was founded, the company has been involved as a world leader in fuel cell vehicle demonstration projects performed by car manufacturers all over the world. These projects include:

1992 First order of a fuel cell compressor from Ballard
2000 Agreement with Xcellsis on delivering Air modules for the “Necar project”.
2004 A five-year business agreement regarding deliveries of Air modules was signed,
modules today in operation by NuCellSys
2006 The 27 fuel cell buses in the EU CUTE project had accumulated
over 100,000 hours of reliable operation, still running in 2008
2007-2008 Deliveries of the new developed air supply systems for the EU HyTRAN project

Our target for the fuel cell area remains unchanged - to continue the close work together with our customers to develop fuel cell air supply systems for present prototype testing and for future commercial fuel cell system requirements!


Neil

[ADVANT123]

That was exactly why I thought to pick up the phone and call. When we spoke at BMW Fest East you mentioned you had a custom 2l - Knowing it was the Autorotor and that Kenne Bell had bought Autorotor and was now offering larger displacements I thought that using the larger TS was totally possible. And although I want to go turbo, putting together a cheaper TS kit is not completely out of the question for me.. Especially since I know who can do the tune, I knwo what other components are needed besides the TS, the only hump is the intake..

JMC and I tried contacting KB about a year ago asking to buy the larger blower and they wouldn't sell just the blower, we had to get the whole kit.

Rather than try to make a new manifold, you might want to try to purchase one from AA, I believe they have a small inventory of manifolds left that they might consider selling..

[tmaher]

Neil - scrollt his page http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ford-techinfo/AUTOROTORvsLYSHOLM.pdf

This is what gave me the idea that Kenne Bell bought this part of Autorotor - Thaat and TJ at Kenne Bell told me, "Autorotor has been out of the TS business for a long time now".. And, well, the new KB TS's are identical to the Autorotor designs.. Make sense?


JMC and I tried contacting KB about a year ago asking to buy the larger blower and they wouldn't sell just the blower, we had to get the whole kit.

Rather than try to make a new manifold, you might want to try to purchase one from AA, I believe they have a small inventory of manifolds left that they might consider selling..ADVANT - phone call will be made :), heh, on phone now ;)

[Neil]

Neil - scrollt his page http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ford-techinfo/AUTOROTORvsLYSHOLM.pdf

This is what gave me the idea that Kenne Bell bought this part of Autorotor - Thaat and TJ at Kenne Bell told me, "Autorotor has been out of the TS business for a long time now".. And, well, the new KB TS's are identical to the Autorotor designs.. Make sense?

OK, I get it now.

I don't recall all the details but Lysholm Technologies and Autorotor used to be separate companies. IIRC, Opcon subsequently merged them and "rationalized" the product lines.

The KB document dates from the period when there were endless discussions of the relative merits of the Opcon Autorotor (used by KB) and the Lysholm-built compressors.

In any case, KB is manufacturing his own compressors and did not buy Autorotor.

Neil

Edit: This is statement from the link you provided (guess you just read title and not the full document): "In January '04 OPCON/Autorotor purchased all the assets of Lysholm. This was not a merger as some would leave you to believe. It was a simple buy out."

[tmaher]

Neil, let's not make assumptions, I did read that - But I was told by KB today that Autorotor has been out of the TS business for a long time now. Then by looking at the KB designs I thought they were producing the Autorotor units as KB units. Is this true? If not, do you have contact info for Autorotor? Thanks.

[jmc]

When I bought my blower is was considered a lysholm product (mx series), but the part number,specs, and tech sheet were the same as the autorotor MX series. OPCON basically kept the same stuff but rebadged it. Kenne bell blowers are their own now. I think some guy in sweden (former autorotor guy IIRC) makes them to KB specs or they are totally in house. I think KB had some serious supply issues with autorotor way back when, so went solo. It wasnt a product issue but a supply issue. Funny thing cause AA and ES both had supply problems with autorotor/opcon thanks to ESS.

JMC

[pbonsalb]

I think that if everyone donated their time, the "cost of parts" twinscrew kit would be possible. Tuners, machinests, prototypers, welders, installers, drivers, bankers, marketers all needed.

[Bimmerman535i]

For you guys who have managed to buy a twin screw compressor on your own, where did you buy one from? KB sounds like you can't buy just the compressor from them, I can't find a single dealer for Lysholm TSs, etc.

I'm looking to DIY on my subaru since no kits exist for that car.

[jmc]

psesuperchargers.com good luck getting a snout though.

jmc




For you guys who have managed to buy a twin screw compressor on your own, where did you buy one from? KB sounds like you can't buy just the compressor from them, I can't find a single dealer for Lysholm TSs, etc.

I'm looking to DIY on my subaru since no kits exist for that car.

[Bimmerman535i]

psesuperchargers.com good luck getting a snout though.

jmc

Awesome, thanks!

[///M3///M5]

The DIY argument has been beat to death. If you can build a TS kit for yourself for 11.5k, by all means and more power to you. No one is stopping you. Hope you have access to a 150k mill, 50k worth of design/engineering software, a BBA/MBA, a MSME/EE, and a decent line of credit.

Also, as for the 11.5k argument to lower the price and sell more. FYI there is VERY little economies of scale and/or economies of efficiency in producing TSes by the masses. If one can create the same overall profit level selling 20 kits vs. selling 100, it is much better to sell the 20. Volume/price parity (or arbitrage, however you want to look at it) only works when two things exist: 1. large economies of scale and efficiency, 2. an inefficiency in market supply and demand for products at certain prices and VERY elastic demand (al la the supply/demand curves not creating a perfect "X").

[Makr]

Then why did you start off with "Wrong" ?

See, in this hypothetical kit using the Kenne Bell 2.1l TS that Kenne Bell is unaware of - you can purchase the KB2 2.1l for $1899 right from Kenne Bell.. That gives you $9600 to come up with the rest of the kit.. Anyone here think it can't be done for $9600? I'm just curious to know.

Of course you'd have to minus the costs of the piping, software tune from your favorite shop, intercooler, etc, etc - But a lot of folks here know exactly what those costs are it would be interesting to see how much is left over to come up with an intake..

Ps. I'm just interested in seeing someone buy the Kenne Bell and beat the price on the ES 'kit' - I'm not even using a SC, I'm working on a turbo setup so.. I'm simply curious.


I don't "think", I "know" you can not build the rest of the kit for $9600. You may be able to cobble something together for less, but it will be just that.

You cannot possibly understand the time that went into that project.

[dcvee]

...my gawd...the testosterone is so thick you can cut it with a knife.;)

Don

[///M3///M5]

With a few exceptions, selling more of something with less margin will lead to larger profits.

I listed the exceptions (and there are not few in occurance). Well, actually the conditions that make your statement true. Elasticity of demand matters a lot in this case.

Also, to throw another economic term out there since that seems to be popular. The opportunity cost of producing 100 kits is vastly greater than that of producing 20.

[GG///M3]

I wonder what Eurosport will charge for the blower upgrade to customers who already have the old kits?

[///M3///M5]

I wonder what Eurosport will charge for the blower upgrade to customers who already have the old kits?

The price is established and some have already made the leap.

[milKt]

I wonder what Eurosport will charge for the blower upgrade to customers who already have the old kits?

:buttrock


The price is established and some have already made the leap.

PM the established price
OR just nod if it is the number mentioned many times in this thread.
:(

[///M3///M5]

OR just nod if it is the number mentioned many times in this thread.
:(

:nono

[milKt]

:nono

Why is your smilie still wearing a Santa hat? :rolleyes
PM rocks.

[///36M]

The DIY argument has been beat to death. If you can build a TS kit for yourself for 11.5k, by all means and more power to you. No one is stopping you. Hope you have access to a 150k mill, 50k worth of design/engineering software, a BBA/MBA, a MSME/EE, and a decent line of credit.

Also, as for the 11.5k argument to lower the price and sell more. FYI there is VERY little economies of scale and/or economies of efficiency in producing TSes by the masses. If one can create the same overall profit level selling 20 kits vs. selling 100, it is much better to sell the 20. Volume/price parity (or arbitrage, however you want to look at it) only works when two things exist: 1. large economies of scale and efficiency, 2. an inefficiency in market supply and demand for products at certain prices and VERY elastic demand (al la the supply/demand curves not creating a perfect "X").
Being that there is only one market and one manufacturer, I don't see the arb opportunities in this hypothesis. That being said, the rest of your explanation seems correct to me. The market is too small and overhead too high to bust your ass to sell as many of these kits as possible.


I listed the exceptions (and there are not few in occurance). Well, actually the conditions that make your statement true. Elasticity of demand matters a lot in this case.

Also, to throw another economic term out there since that seems to be popular. The opportunity cost of producing 100 kits is vastly greater than that of producing 20.

If you take into account the discussion, that was no the point of my post. My point mirrors yours.

[GG///M3]

The price is established and some have already made the leap.

Is it why not post it? Your such a tease :stickoutt

[milKt]

Is it why not post it? Your such a tease :stickoutt

Tempting :devillook

I would love to SEE the pig's results
OR
be the pig?

[GG///M3]

Tempting :devillook

I would love to SEE the pig's results
OR
be the pig?

I hate this lack of info. Kind of reminds me of this thread http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1085219 :embarrasm

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

...my gawd...the testosterone is so thick you can cut it with a knife.;)

Don

lol.... numbers do talk though.


This is great news. The larger big bore blower is close to my 2l dimensionally. if I used autorotor I couldn't go bigger now maybe I can.

Jmc

So.... you have a 2.0L KB blower right now or another company's blower??

[stimpee]

I am not really sure why I am getting so involved in this, but for some reason I can't help myself! And I am certain that at some point I will regret it. I have been relatively inactive here for several years. If too much crap starts flying, I will just crawl back under my rock and not provide any input or assistance to anyone. For discussion's sake, let me say a few things here, but I will limit myself to things that are at least "somewhat" relevant to this thread, and leave other things for another time, or a separate thread.

Before the "buyout" of Lysholm by Opcon, SRM/Lysholm was actually the larger company, and supplied more compressors to the OEM and aftermarket than Opcon Autorotor. There were (and probably still are) lots of opinions on the relative quality and position of the two units vs each other. The SRM/Lysholm compressors were exclusively sold and marketed to the US aftermarket through Whipple Superchargers. The Opcon Autorotor was primarily used by Kennebell, however they could also be bought directly through a US arm of Opcon that was Opcon Inc in the US. Opcon also carried the Laminova intercooler brand and the cores/parts.

The Opcon Autorotor uses an "extruded" aluminum casing, while the Lysholm compressor uses a cast aluminum casing. Some say the extruded case is superior, some say the cast case is superior. I would argue that both have their pluses and minuses. The extruded case results in higher quality and more consistent material properties at lower risk, but has limitations due to the constant cross sectional geometry. The cast case provides the ability to design a case with potentially higher overall rigidity (without adding weight) due to the ability to incorporate ribs, etc. However aluminum castings can be prone to porosity and non-uniform material properties due to the nature of the process. The autorotor has a 6 lobed female rotor and a 4 lobed male rotor, while the Lysholm has a 5 lobed female rotor and a 3 lobed male rotor.

People will argue the efficiencies and benefits of the two vs each other. Tough call as to who is right. For a given shaft speed, the other rotor in the autorotor DOES turn a bit slower than the Lysholm, which may be an advantage. However the male rotor has greater rotational inertia on the Opcon, and is probably a bit more strictly limited in upper bound rpm. I would say that based on what I know (this is my OPINION), the Opcon may be marginally more efficient, by perhaps a few (low single digit) percent at the most.

Also, while the Opcon may have "bigger" bearings and snout diameters, etc, the Lysholm was re-engineered by Eaton in the early 2000's for use in the Ford applications that were being worked on at that point (Ford GT and Lightning). Some will say (proponents of the Lysholm compressor) that was to ensure that the Lysholm had the reliability and life span (150k miles without any maintenance) required by an OEM. Others will say that was solely to reduce cost (proponents of Autorotor). I tend to side with the former, but I guess that shows where I stand.

When I developed my TS kit, I started working on it in 2001 and was working with Whipple Superchargers and directly with the support of Dustin Whipple. I intended to produce my kit with the Whipple (Lysholm) 1600AX compressor for moderate level horsepower applications. I also designed my kit so that the 2300AX compressor was a direct bolt on for the "insane" horsepower junkies. When I started working with Active, they decided to switch to the Autorotor MX417 compressor for a variety of reasons. While I think the Autorotor was an excellent compressor, I still would have preferred to stick with the Whipple due to the support provided by Whipple during my development.

In any case, prior to the buyout, SRM/Lysholm started having significant delivery issues with the 2300AX compressor for the Ford GT OEM application. The problem was that the vehicle was using the compressor in a form that was basically "unfinished". The compressor housing, while perfectly adequate from a performance perspective, was being rejected by Ford Quality due to visible surface porosity in the castings. In the process of fixing this problem, SRM focused all of their limited resources on solving the problem. This created significant delivery issues for Whipple in the aftermarket, and seriously damaged their business. It is also one of the reasons that Active decided to switch to the Opcon Autorotor compressor. This ultimately caused Whipple to design and produce their own compressors (working with the original engineer that had designed both of the compressor families). While they have not produced the 1600AX yet due to the lack of aftermarket demand (their kits focus mostly on big 'Murrican V8's), they have the 2300AX in production, and also produce HUGE compressors for marine and insane automotive applications.

After the buyout, supplies and focus of Opcon on the Autorotor compressor began having problems as well, and this eventually resulted in Kennebell developing their own compressors so they could supply their own kits. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

In the process of this, there was a lot of BS going about between myself, Eurosport, Conforti, Active, Opcon, etc. I am not going to air all of that, but it was a period of my life that was stressful, painful, expensive, and damaging. It damaged friendships, business relationships, and destroyed my bank account in multiple ways.

Back when all of the TS wars were going on, I predicted that the SRM/Lysholm compressor would be the one that survived the buyout for the automotive aftermarket. I recall being laughed at or called crazy at the time. Hmmmmm. (I do enjoy being right sometimes!!)

In any case, then about 2.5 years ago, while we (Hurtig = me and AA) had just started producing and selling kits for the E36, and Josh had been producing and selling for perhaps a year, ESS announced their kit for the E46 cars. I had designed my kit from day 1 to be adaptable to the E46 engines with only minor alterations, and AA very quickly fit our kit onto an E46 330 and posted some results. This brought out the BEST in the BMW aftermarket once again, and caused a big WAR once again. The response to this was that ESS, the last to the party in the TS game reacted to this WAR by buying exclusivity for BMW aftermarket applications in an attempt to shut Active down. Basically it drove the cost of the compressors up enough, and sales had been marginal anyway due to the pricing of the kits and value for an aging vehicle when other alternatives were available, that Active decided to shut down the product line.

Eurosport obviously fell victim to this exclusivity and pricing issue as well to some extent, so here we are today.

While I am certain that SOME of what I have written above is likely to be either disputed, distorted, refuted, or otherwise hammered by someone somewhere, it is essentially reality (albeit I am sure with some bias from my perspective, which I will openly admit to).

It is nowhere close to being the TOTAL reality, but close enough for public consumption.

So, that should give some background as to where the Kennebell compressors came from, and what the current state is of compressor availability for US applications.

It should also give some background as to why you will not see me involved in any serious business of future twin screw kit applications for BMW's. My personal response and decisions are obviously different than what Josh has chosen to do, and how he has chosen to react to the situation!!!

Steve

[abradic]

To kind of keep things on a level playing field as far as cost and R&D, why is the TS so much more? Take a centri kit or turbo kit for example. You have to put together all the hardware, get all the engineers together to make it work, and all of that costs money. You have the same limited market. Basically you have all the hurdles to develop those kits, and costs in relation to parts and development. My question is why are the others approximately $4,000 cheaper? It has been mentioned that the actual parts are pretty much the same cost as the other FI options, so what makes the TS so much more?

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

I am not really sure why I am getting so involved in this, but for some reason I can't help myself! And I am certain that at some point I will regret it. I have been relatively inactive here for several years. If too much crap starts flying, I will just crawl back under my rock and not provide any input or assistance to anyone. For discussion's sake, let me say a few things here, but I will limit myself to things that are at least "somewhat" relevant to this thread, and leave other things for another time, or a separate thread.

Before the "buyout" of Lysholm by Opcon, SRM/Lysholm was actually the larger company, and supplied more compressors to the OEM and aftermarket than Opcon Autorotor. There were (and probably still are) lots of opinions on the relative quality and position of the two units vs each other. The SRM/Lysholm compressors were exclusively sold and marketed to the US aftermarket through Whipple Superchargers. The Opcon Autorotor was primarily used by Kennebell, however they could also be bought directly through a US arm of Opcon that was Opcon Inc in the US. Opcon also carried the Laminova intercooler brand and the cores/parts.

The Opcon Autorotor uses an "extruded" aluminum casing, while the Lysholm compressor uses a cast aluminum casing. Some say the extruded case is superior, some say the cast case is superior. I would argue that both have their pluses and minuses. The extruded case results in higher quality and more consistent material properties at lower risk, but has limitations due to the constant cross sectional geometry. The cast case provides the ability to design a case with potentially higher overall rigidity (without adding weight) due to the ability to incorporate ribs, etc. However aluminum castings can be prone to porosity and non-uniform material properties due to the nature of the process. The autorotor has a 6 lobed female rotor and a 4 lobed male rotor, while the Lysholm has a 5 lobed female rotor and a 3 lobed male rotor.

People will argue the efficiencies and benefits of the two vs each other. Tough call as to who is right. For a given shaft speed, the other rotor in the autorotor DOES turn a bit slower than the Lysholm, which may be an advantage. However the male rotor has greater rotational inertia on the Opcon, and is probably a bit more strictly limited in upper bound rpm. I would say that based on what I know (this is my OPINION), the Opcon may be marginally more efficient, by perhaps a few (low single digit) percent at the most.

Also, while the Opcon may have "bigger" bearings and snout diameters, etc, the Lysholm was re-engineered by Eaton in the early 2000's for use in the Ford applications that were being worked on at that point (Ford GT and Lightning). Some will say (proponents of the Lysholm compressor) that was to ensure that the Lysholm had the reliability and life span (150k miles without any maintenance) required by an OEM. Others will say that was solely to reduce cost (proponents of Autorotor). I tend to side with the former, but I guess that shows where I stand.

When I developed my TS kit, I started working on it in 2001 and was working with Whipple Superchargers and directly with the support of Dustin Whipple. I intended to produce my kit with the Whipple (Lysholm) 1600AX compressor for moderate level horsepower applications. I also designed my kit so that the 2300AX compressor was a direct bolt on for the "insane" horsepower junkies. When I started working with Active, they decided to switch to the Autorotor MX417 compressor for a variety of reasons. While I think the Autorotor was an excellent compressor, I still would have preferred to stick with the Whipple due to the support provided by Whipple during my development.

In any case, prior to the buyout, SRM/Lysholm started having significant delivery issues with the 2300AX compressor for the Ford GT OEM application. The problem was that the vehicle was using the compressor in a form that was basically "unfinished". The compressor housing, while perfectly adequate from a performance perspective, was being rejected by Ford Quality due to visible surface porosity in the castings. In the process of fixing this problem, SRM focused all of their limited resources on solving the problem. This created significant delivery issues for Whipple in the aftermarket, and seriously damaged their business. It is also one of the reasons that Active decided to switch to the Opcon Autorotor compressor. This ultimately caused Whipple to design and produce their own compressors (working with the original engineer that had designed both of the compressor families). While they have not produced the 1600AX yet due to the lack of aftermarket demand (their kits focus mostly on big 'Murrican V8's), they have the 2300AX in production, and also produce HUGE compressors for marine and insane automotive applications.

After the buyout, supplies and focus of Opcon on the Autorotor compressor began having problems as well, and this eventually resulted in Kennebell developing their own compressors so they could supply their own kits. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

In the process of this, there was a lot of BS going about between myself, Eurosport, Conforti, Active, Opcon, etc. I am not going to air all of that, but it was a period of my life that was stressful, painful, expensive, and damaging. It damaged friendships, business relationships, and destroyed my bank account in multiple ways.

Back when all of the TS wars were going on, I predicted that the SRM/Lysholm compressor would be the one that survived the buyout for the automotive aftermarket. I recall being laughed at or called crazy at the time. Hmmmmm. (I do enjoy being right sometimes!!)

In any case, then about 2.5 years ago, while we (Hurtig = me and AA) had just started producing and selling kits for the E36, and Josh had been producing and selling for perhaps a year, ESS announced their kit for the E46 cars. I had designed my kit from day 1 to be adaptable to the E46 engines with only minor alterations, and AA very quickly fit our kit onto an E46 330 and posted some results. This brought out the BEST in the BMW aftermarket once again, and caused a big WAR once again. The response to this was that ESS, the last to the party in the TS game reacted to this WAR by buying exclusivity for BMW aftermarket applications in an attempt to shut Active down. Basically it drove the cost of the compressors up enough, and sales had been marginal anyway due to the pricing of the kits and value for an aging vehicle when other alternatives were available, that Active decided to shut down the product line.

Eurosport obviously fell victim to this exclusivity and pricing issue as well to some extent, so here we are today.

While I am certain that SOME of what I have written above is likely to be either disputed, distorted, refuted, or otherwise hammered by someone somewhere, it is essentially reality (albeit I am sure with some bias from my perspective, which I will openly admit to).

It is nowhere close to being the TOTAL reality, but close enough for public consumption.

So, that should give some background as to where the Kennebell compressors came from, and what the current state is of compressor availability for US applications.

It should also give some background as to why you will not see me involved in any serious business of future twin screw kit applications for BMW's. My personal response and decisions are obviously different than what Josh has chosen to do, and how he has chosen to react to the situation!!!

Steve

First, let me say thank you! (I am not being an asshole here at all) I hope for the forum's sake that you become more "active" again.

I did not know anything about this past "TS war." Sounds like some people got the raw end of the deal, and I can't believe this all had to happen bc basically some people wanted the monopoly on such small market.

[Neil]

Steve -

Great post.

Thank you.

Neil

[jmc]

lol.... numbers do talk though.



So.... you have a 2.0L KB blower right now or another company's blower??


My blower is a autorotor 2.0 listed here.
http://www.opcon.se/www/files/lysholm/pdf/dimensional%20drawings/LYSOA417_424.pdf

This drawing is the exact same drawing as autorotor supplied years back, so it looks like lysholm is just repackaging the autorotors is this particular model. They have several other models available with different casings.

JMC

[Z3speed4me]

How much power is this expected to make in comparison to the old one? Over 400 I'd hope...something along the lines compared to jmc would be nice especially for that price.

[Tanks95]

As has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum and others, sometimes it is not all about the AMOUNT of power. It is about the "character" of the power. While a well engineered and tuned turbo setup, at moderate power, can minimize (not eliminate) the "lag" (call it lag, boost threshold, non-linearity, rubber band effect, or whatever you want depending on the specific thing you are feeling), it will still exist in some manner. As the power levels go up, the non-linearity will increase. Don't misunderstand, the reason it is nonlinear is because the power, when it comes on, is massive.

The point is that the driving experiences are different, and SOME people will be willing to pay more, to experience the character and feel of a PD supercharger setup. I would, and did, to a stupid extent when you think about what I spent!!! :D

Even at 11-12k, there will likely still be SOME customers. It is a bit scary, as I look at the past and consider the cost of the TS kits then, and the fact that the cars were more expensive, and think that from a business perspective, this will probably not be a big win. From an engineering perspective, the TS is an awesome setup and excellent option for performance. From a business perspective, in the BMW market, it is certainly a very difficult sale to make.

But acknowledge that there are some people that dont WANT a turbo, or don't WANT a centrifugal supercharger.

I have looked over and over again at the centrif offerings for the E46M3 and seriously considered purchasing one, but I personally just cannot get past the section of the torque curve below 5k rpm. And I don't want the driving character of a turbo setup on my E46M3. That is just me. Different strokes, for different folks...

I concur the driving experience is absolutely different.


:eatpop:

ALl of Josh's units will sell
despite the mute debate.

I concur, quality will always sell. This same debate raged on about the original TS and all sold.


Tempting :devillook

I would love to SEE the pig's results
OR
be the pig?

BE the pig.


Steve -

Great post.

Thank you.

Neil

absolutely Neil. I had to get in before this thread goes south and gets locked. I believe it was mentioned earlier ES / Josh are catering to a small niche market. i don't think he has any delusions of being on MTV cribs anytime soon. However, he does have passion, and that has historically produced some amazing results.

As for the customer service, i too have been a little flustered at times, but they have ALWAYS had a viable explanation that made sense. Having been in the military for 19 years i have heard all the useless excuses. When deciding to spend HARD earned money with a business, i look at the total business, not just how cheap i can get the product. Being a DIYr (is that a word) I want quality, customer service, and service AFTER the sale. I have called Josh during some extreme non business hours and he has sat on the phone and listed to my amateur gibberish, and answered all my questions. And, yes i have had to wait at times for him to call back. BLUF: Josh and Eurosport produce a phenomenal product.

That was not as well said as Stimpee, sorry, hes way smarter ;)

[///M3///M5]

To kind of keep things on a level playing field as far as cost and R&D, why is the TS so much more? Take a centri kit or turbo kit for example. You have to put together all the hardware, get all the engineers together to make it work, and all of that costs money. You have the same limited market. Basically you have all the hurdles to develop those kits, and costs in relation to parts and development. My question is why are the others approximately $4,000 cheaper? It has been mentioned that the actual parts are pretty much the same cost as the other FI options, so what makes the TS so much more?

Not to be offensive, but bending pipe and buying readily available parts from hundreds of suppliers is vastly different than solid modeling, flow modelings, casting, tooling, engineering, and designing a one-off never seen before system (not to mention every component in the system being one-off). The quality and finishing of a kit like Steve's or Josh's is of OE quality. I am not sure if much more expansion is needed on this subject.

The all in "parts" cost between a TS and turbo/centri kit MIGHT be within a few grand of one another, but the time, engineering, design, and other amortizable costs (tooling, machines, set-ups, castings, software, tuning) is no where close to even comparable.

[Impulsed7]

Thanks Stimpee (steve) for laying out what happened in the past... not too many of these questioning new guys (tmaher, you should really take all of this into consideration, its true) are going to read all of that, but if fills in a few details that I missed in the original TS war.

One thing the DIY'er never realizes before his project is the cost of failure, however small. For years I have been trying to subsidize this or that because its cheaper, when meanwhile I could have saved money by just buying a kit, or the part that had ALL of the R&D done already.

and Tanks95, thanks for serving from another military member... if you get some time off check the MAR section for some of our meets and stop up!

[abradic]

Not to be offensive, but bending pipe and buying readily available parts from hundreds of suppliers is vastly different than solid modeling, flow modelings, casting, tooling, engineering, and designing a one-off never seen before system (not to mention every component in the system being one-off). The quality and finishing of a kit like Steve's or Josh's is of OE quality. I am not sure if much more expansion is needed on this subject.

The all in "parts" cost between a TS and turbo/centri kit MIGHT be within a few grand of one another, but the time, engineering, design, and other amortizable costs (tooling, machines, set-ups, castings, software, tuning) is no where close to even comparable.

Not offensive at all. I was looking at it as a kit on the market, and see the other kits out there too that I know needed time, effort, and money to develop, so you wonder what made this one so much more. So it's not just the whole engineering aspect, the actual hardware is also much more due to a much higher quality and some uniqueness. It would be a very nice option for our cars, and judging by this thread it seems like people are interested, so hopefully they can succeed with it.

[stimpee]

I can say this with complete confidence, that the "engineering" and complexity of ANY BMW centrifugal kit (hardware) on the market, was at least one order of magnitude (and likely more) less complex and difficult than the engineering of ANY of the TS kits that have ever been on the market for a BMW, especially for anyone that developed a centrif kit after the first kit ever hit the streets.

[Mistermotorist]

Welcome back Stimpee - thanks for your insightful observations on reality. It is important for there to be a component of personal experience and analytical approach in a discussion like this (a little bias is certainly OK, too) Oh, and also thanks to Neil and the other long term TS users for invaluable contributions to the discussion, too.

Also, "welcome back Eurosport". I actually went to SLC when the first batch of 50 TS were in production to see the castings and production set up and see about purchasing a TS system - [I didn't do it because of the subsequent supply difficulties and the breakdown in availability.]

I sincerely hope that it works out better for everyone this time.

[highboostingm3]

Steve,

Thank you so much for sharing your side. I have deep respect for what you went through. You are a very smart and very patient man. I feel for you and especially because you have a big family to feed (my third child is on the way right now). If I ever win the lottery, I promise to give you tax free, twice whatever the amount was that you lost in the entire twin screw chapter of your life.

[Neil]

Steve,

Thank you so much for sharing your side. I have deep respect for what you went through. You are a very smart and very patient man. I feel for you and especially because you have a big family to feed (my third child is on the way right now). If I ever win the lottery, I promise to give you tax free, twice whatever the amount was that you lost in the entire twin screw chapter of your life.

Damn, I hope you win the lottery -- and it better be a big one!

Neil

[Mad Dog 20/20]

Just out of curiosity, anyone know why ESS does not make an e36 TS kit? Their e46/e39 TS kits are only $5.3k . . .

[stimpee]

Just out of curiosity, anyone know why ESS does not make an e36 TS kit? Their e46/e39 TS kits are only $5.3k . . .

They deemed it "not worth the effort" to adapt it, to the best of my knowledge. They said they were going to do it, and even discussed it with me briefly at one point (their beef was with AA, not me personally), but obviously nothing has happened.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

They deemed it "not worth the effort" to adapt it, to the best of my knowledge. They said they were going to do it, and even discussed it with me briefly at one point (their beef was with AA, not me personally), but obviously nothing has happened.

Interesting.
Given their e46/e39 pricing, it seems they could do an e36 M3 intercooled 2.1L version for $8k and turn an acceptable profit.

[ZHP]

Interesting.
Given their e46/e39 pricing, it seems they could do an e36 M3 intercooled 2.1L version for $8k and turn an acceptable profit.

The e46 kit priced @ $5350 is the TS1, 7 psi non-intercooled kit. The intercooled 8 psi TS2 is $6850 and the 8.5 psi TS2+ is $7350 + $1400 for FI cams. When first released about 2 years ago, their TS2 was running ~$8k though. The 14 psi TS3 requires lower compression pistons, head work, etc raising the price point substantially.

Could they support the e36? Sure, especially if they didn't have to redesign their existing intake manifold (not sure if they designed it to be comptabile with the e36 or not and it would not be worth pursuing if they had to redesign the manifold casting). The e36 market already has lots of FI options though. Volume and profit margins will be higher on kits for the newer cars though so, not surprisingly, that's where their development efforts seem to be focused.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

The e46 kit priced @ $5350 is the TS1, 7 psi non-intercooled kit. The intercooled 8 psi TS2 is $6850 and the 8.5 psi TS2+ is $7350 + $1400 for FI cams. When first released about 2 years ago, their TS2 was running ~$8k though. The 14 psi TS3 requires lower compression pistons, head work, etc raising the price point substantially.

Could they support the e36? Sure, especially if they didn't have to redesign their existing intake manifold (not sure if they designed it to be comptabile with the e36 or not and it would not be worth pursuing if they had to redesign the manifold casting). The e36 market already has lots of FI options though. Volume and profit margins will be higher on kits for the newer cars though so, not surprisingly, that's where their development efforts seem to be focused.

That seems like great pricing to me, especially in a market where there seems to not be a whole lot of comp.

Although its priced out the wazoo, you have to give props to ES for refining, upgrading and bringing the e36 TS back.

[ZHP]

That seems like great pricing to me, especially in a market where there seems to not be a whole lot of comp.

Could be coincidence but ESS pricing seemed to drop shortly after NickG released his turbo for the e46.

[calibimmer]

when all TS kits were not in production I approached ESS about a kit for myself. They said that they can sell me a reduced price 330 TS2 kit since I would not use the software but that I would be on my own for mounting the intercooler since it would have to be custom fabricated. Then I would either have to fly out ESS to custom tune or nickG to do a custom tune. Overall, I estimate that route at ~9-10k. ESS has a prototype TS for the E36 M3 currently built but they did not tune or finish it for the above reasons.

[GG///M3]

Screw Ess. Get it?:stickoutt

[stimpee]

Screw Ess. Get it?:stickoutt

They already screwed me... :eyecrazy

Sorry, couldnt resist!!! :buttrock

[GG///M3]

They already screwed me... :eyecrazy

Sorry, couldnt resist!!! :buttrock

Then screw them twice.....:lol

[n24tg]

Interesting read. Thanks guys.

[e30polak]

Thanks for all the insight Stimpee, sorry to hear about what you went through. The kit is appropriately priced, especially considering the FI market for the e36. :rolleyes

While TS may not be the most cost efficient way to obtain one's power goals, it makes the motor behave more like a torquey v8. If i could afford to go TS vs. turbo on my car i would in a heart beat, but even a used kit is almost as much as I've put into my car! :eek:

BTW ESS kits are not worth the $ IMO. I pulled steadily on a Stage 1 3.0 Z4 in my e30 with my old gears by almost 2 CLs. i was not impressed except by the sexy whine of the motor! :drool:

[agu845]

is there a cleaner thread that features more specifics about said larger TS (build, costs, performance, reliability etc), with none of the (or at least less of) the whining?

someone who has insight should start one

[milKt]

is there a cleaner thread that features more specifics about said larger TS (build, costs, performance, reliability etc), with none of the (or at least less of) the whining?

someone who has insight should start one

PM Thomas
He has swap info

[GGray]

11,500... thats ridiculous...

If I meet someone at the track who spent 11,500 on a Twin screw I would probably laugh at them and tell them they got screwed..literally....

Its really poor business to spend countless hours developing a product you get little return on your investment.. Its just poor business. Plain and simple.

[milKt]

If I meet someone at the track who spent 11,500 on a Twin screw

If you could catch them. :(
I kid, I kid (only slightly)
:paranoid:

[GGray]

If you could catch them. :(
I kid, I kid (only slightly)
:paranoid:

I can and pass them ;)

[Tanks95]

11,500... thats ridiculous...

If I meet someone at the track who spent 11,500 on a Twin screw I would probably laugh at them and tell them they got screwed..literally....

Its really poor business to spend countless hours developing a product you get little return on your investment.. Its just poor business. Plain and simple.

Well I wouldn’t go that far. Because you could easily say that some would say, spending the premium price for BMW (i assume you own more than one, like myself) is ridiculous.

Some would also say racing a car and spending all that money on the consumables is ridiculous. Every time I go to the track, some of my friends say why? Your not a pro, why do you spend the money.

Some would also say buying a German car is ridiculous (something I deal with at work). I always get the why don’t you buy American comment.
I would say each of us has a hobby, and most are passionate about it, like you (which sometimes translates into money).

Again, Eurosport makes a quality product.

[milKt]

which sometimes translates into money.

Good point.
Reliable and proven to be better on the track. :paranoid:

BTW
this hobby translates into a ton of money. :(

[Tanks95]

yea, i've exceed 11k in the last 10 years of ownership.

[milKt]

yea, i've exceed 11k in the last 10 years of ownership.


Thats NOTHING. :)
Whats important is that this whore keeps giving a grand time
(and she knows how to.) :evil2

[Tanks95]

yea, i agree, shes worth every penny (to me). I think i love her.

[milKt]

I think i love her.

:bluecryin

[Tanks95]

i may name her, sugar, china, sparkles, or trixie. I know i have definitely paid for he college education :)

[susan28]

As has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum and others, sometimes it is not all about the AMOUNT of power. It is about the "character" of the power. While a well engineered and tuned turbo setup, at moderate power, can minimize (not eliminate) the "lag" (call it lag, boost threshold, non-linearity, rubber band effect, or whatever you want depending on the specific thing you are feeling), it will still exist in some manner. As the power levels go up, the non-linearity will increase. Don't misunderstand, the reason it is nonlinear is because the power, when it comes on, is massive.

The point is that the driving experiences are different, and SOME people will be willing to pay more, to experience the character and feel of a PD supercharger setup. I would, and did, to a stupid extent when you think about what I spent!!! :D

Even at 11-12k, there will likely still be SOME customers. It is a bit scary, as I look at the past and consider the cost of the TS kits then, and the fact that the cars were more expensive, and think that from a business perspective, this will probably not be a big win. From an engineering perspective, the TS is an awesome setup and excellent option for performance. From a business perspective, in the BMW market, it is certainly a very difficult sale to make.

But acknowledge that there are some people that dont WANT a turbo, or don't WANT a centrifugal supercharger.

I have looked over and over again at the centrif offerings for the E46M3 and seriously considered purchasing one, but I personally just cannot get past the section of the torque curve below 5k rpm. And I don't want the driving character of a turbo setup on my E46M3. That is just me. Different strokes, for different folks...

I am such a customer, or am trying to be. I bought my e36 because i wanted an e36 sedan, not an e46 nor e anything else. She's my baby and the fact she's affordable only leaves me more to build with. My M3 is the apple of my eye and is literally not for sale at any price - too much bond now - and nor will my TS be when i finally lay hands on it. Suffice it to say i appreciate this is a specialty item with all that that entails and i think 11,5 is a steal for such a jewel considering the sweat and passion it was forged in.

So how do we formally get on the list? I don't wanna miss out this time round. Matt at TRM knows i'm in but not sure Josh knows who i am, i only emailed once before he turned sales enquiries over to Matt.

[Volf]

Skimming this thread I didn't notice anyone mentioning the price reduction to 9k. Maybe I'm blind

[susan28]

Skimming this thread I didn't notice anyone mentioning the price reduction to 9k. Maybe I'm blind

Volf: It's been 9k (8995) on the site since around the time of this thread's last activity. i was just answering the haters and giving a +1 to Stimpee's excellent answer to them.

It's still an active project just taking awhile like the first one. I'm confident we'll see it eventually and that it'll be spectacular. And that's priceless.

[Z3speed4me]

I heard rumor of ES doing a turbo kit... I'd like to find out if there is any truth behind this sometime eventually....