Should I get all-season tires or snow?

[addnon]

I was pretty set on getting a set of snow tires, but then I read they are pretty terrible in rain. Here in St.Louis we see more rain than actual ice and snow...so I was wondering, would some all-seasons be a better choice? I already have a dedicated set of summer tires...so my primary concern is getting something that will perform well in a cold climate that sees more rain than heavy snow. :help

[nighthawk328i]

I run bridgestone blizzaks on my car and I don't think they do too bad in the rain at all. Just don't drive like a maniac, which you shouldn't be in the winter anyways. I don't think all seaons would do all that much better in the rain than snow tires. My experience with all seasons is that they are okay at just about everything and aren't great in general. Snow tires with summer tires is the best route to go if you can, it's what I do and I'm happy with it.

[Chazwick05]

snow tires are made to quickly disperse snow and slush, so rain should be no different. you just have to realize that the oils and rubbers that make up snow tires are much softer than summer tires, or even perhaps all seasons.

just don't drive like a moron!

[Critter7r]

Snow tires will do less worse in the rain than all-season tires will do in the snow.

I have all-season tires on my Xi. I hate them in the snow because my E30 RWD with snows was actaully as capable and felt even more so.

Go with the snow tires.

[mryakan]

snow tires are made to quickly disperse snow and slush

Actually quite the contrary. It is a (maybe not so well known?) fact that snow sticks better to snow than it does to rubber, so snow tires are designed to capture as much snow as possible so that the tire would be covered with snow and would provide better traction on snow covered roads. That is why if you looks closely at snow tires, you will see how the tread blocks have many small grooves in them which are meant to capture the snow. Also they are meant to bite into the ice better.

In essence, snow and rain traction are 2 totally different things. In the snow you need better traction on (stickiness to) the snow, so snow on snow works best. In the rain however, you want to avoid hydroplaning and channel the water out, and the tread pattern and water channels play the biggest role here.

Usually snow tires are designed with rain in mind too and if you look at them, you see they have many channels to disperse the water and avoid hydroplaning. However, I assume that there is a design tradeoff when you want to capture the snow as mentioned before which makes it less optimal in the rain than all seasons. That being said, as mentioned above, snows in the rain are a much better choice than all seasons in the snow, since the former still provide water channeling to avoid hydroplaning, but all seasons usually don't have the proper tread block design to capture snow and bite into the ice effectively.

In addition, the rubber compounds used play a big role. All season rubber compound is not as soft because all season tires are expected to last a lot longer and be subjected to much higher temperatures, so in very cold weather they do not fair as well as the snow tires that have a softer compound which sticks better to colder tarmac. In very low temps (-10/-20 C or lower), I have seen cars with all seasons skid on dry pavement like they were on ice while snow tires take a lot less distance to stop. Many accidents on the highways here in very cold weather are due to people having all seasons and not taking this into consideration on dry cold days, they think that just because there is no snow on the ground, their all seasons can stop just as quickly in such very cold weather as they would in the dry on a normal temperate day, obviously not the case.

Check out the tire rack, they have some very good explanations. Also google is your friend in researching this in case you don't believe me.


just don't drive like a moron!
You don't have to drive like a moron to easily get in trouble in the snow. It is the other morons around you that you need to worry about. On more than one occasion, I barely avoided accidents (with lots of help from lady luck despite my quick reactions) and that was because of another idiot cutting me off or skidding into my path. So yeah definitely watch your driving in such weather, but most importantly be prepared for what others may do and snow tires just give you that extra edge you may need to avoid an accident, whether it may be the extra foot or two to stop, or that bit more traction to steer around or accelerate your way out of trouble.

[Chazwick05]

a well informed post! thanks for writing all that up :)

i'm aware that the tiny sipes in snow tires were meant to "bite" but i didn't realize that it's to bite the snow so that it grabs even more snow. pretty ingenious if you ask me!

i'm running 225/45/17 nokian hakka 5s, studded for good measure, on my e36m (have hakka 5s on my sister's civic, and had hakka 2s on all of our cars for the better part of a decade). they are beasts.

[mryakan]

No problemo :). I noticed so far more than one person running studded tires in PA, I guess they are not illegal. Here they are against the law, something about them ruining the roads, which are already like crap to begin with :mad. The Nokians are one of the best from what I read/heard. I personally opted for the high performance snows since I drive in the city mostly and roads get cleared rather quickly, so I sacrificed a bit of snow/ice traction for more stability and handling in the dry. I hated the way the extreme snows handled in the past, I could not take a corner at any speed in the dry without much drama. These tires handle great on dry roads for snow tires, I have to remind myself I am not on the grippy summers that allowed me to do crazy stuff.

[Chazwick05]

No problemo :). I noticed so far more than one person running studded tires in PA, I guess they are not illegal. Here they are against the law, something about them ruining the roads, which are already like crap to begin with :mad. The Nokians are one of the best from what I read/heard. I personally opted for the high performance snows since I drive in the city mostly and roads get cleared rather quickly, so I sacrificed a bit of snow/ice traction for more stability and handling in the dry. I hated the way the extreme snows handled in the past, I could not take a corner at any speed in the dry without much drama. These tires handle great on dry roads for snow tires, I have to remind myself I am not on the grippy summers that allowed me to do crazy stuff.

here in NJ and PA, studded tires are legal from november first until tax day (which i think is around april 12th). they are legal the rest of the year for the reason you stated: they "tear" up the roads which are already shitty to begin with lol.

with the studded tires on dry pavement, i feel like im driving a 600whp car, having to feather the throttle sometimes and taking turns at speed very cautiously lol. i'll chalk it up as good practice for when i can afford a new z06 with a lingenfelter package hahaha

[Skatingzooyork]

I am running the Nokian WR (http://www.tirefactory.net/wr.htm) tires(they now offer a WR G2 tire also), which isn't a dedicated "snow" tire but it's an ALL WEATHER tire. You might want to consider those. I'm using them in Northern VT, and we get tons of crazy weather here and they have been awesome! Having traction control and a LSD on my 540i doesn't hurt either, but they were a lot better then I expected in rain, snow, and black ice.

[GunnerNell]

Chazwick, I would have sworn that studded tires are illegal all year here in Pennsylvania. (I'm too lazy to look it up, though, so you're on your own.) I know they were legal for a few years, but as you said, they just beat up the roads too badly. Plus, as mryakan says, they're less than optimal on dry roads.

Another thing I'm too lazy to look up is mryakan's theory that the snow tires are designed to pick up snow. I'm having trouble believing that. I've seen tires get loaded up with snow, and believe me, they're absolutely useless for keeping contact with a snowy, icy, or even a dry road. The soft compound is designed for grip, yes, and the lugs are designed to bite. Where he loses me is that if the tread were to fill up with snow, as he says it's designed to do, you'd lose that bite. Look at the track a good, new snow tire makes in the snow -- you can see all the details of the tread design, which wouldn't happen if the tire was picking up and retaining the snow. And another thing -- I don't think that snow trapped in a snow tire would remain snow for very long. I believe it would rapidly turn to ice, and the "snow sticks to snow" theory goes right out the window.* FWIW, I've had tire guys explain this completely differently -- snows are designed to throw off the snow asap, allowing more bite and more soft rubber contact with the snow/road.

Like I said, I've been too lazy to research this to get support for against these arguments, so you're on your own with this one. I know how I'm doing things, and how I've done them for many years. But it might be worth your while to check into this further.

*And hey, mryakan, if your theory were correct, how do ya explain avalanches, eh? :stickoutt

[mryakan]

Another thing I'm too lazy to look up is mryakan's theory that the snow tires are designed to pick up snow. I'm having trouble believing that. I've seen tires get loaded up with snow, and believe me, they're absolutely useless for keeping contact with a snowy, icy, or even a dry road. The soft compound is designed for grip, yes, and the lugs are designed to bite. Where he loses me is that if the tread were to fill up with snow, as he says it's designed to do, you'd lose that bite. Look at the track a good, new snow tire makes in the snow -- you can see all the details of the tread design, which wouldn't happen if the tire was picking up and retaining the snow. And another thing -- I don't think that snow trapped in a snow tire would remain snow for very long. I believe it would rapidly turn to ice, and the "snow sticks to snow" theory goes right out the window.* FWIW, I've had tire guys explain this completely differently -- snows are designed to throw off the snow asap, allowing more bite and more soft rubber contact with the snow/road.

Like I said, I've been too lazy to research this to get support for against these arguments, so you're on your own with this one. I know how I'm doing things, and how I've done them for many years. But it might be worth your while to check into this further.

*And hey, mryakan, if your theory were correct, how do ya explain avalanches, eh? :stickoutt
lol, avalanches huh? Never mind that. Take a look at a snow ball. Can you make a snow ball by using a baseball or basket ball? but you can by using snow right? How about trying to stick 2 icecubes together? or maybe your tongue to the pole (try that one and let me know ;)).
I can't recall where I read that, but it was a reliable source and am trying to find an online link to it. But just look at cars around you driving in the snow, one with snow tires and one without and see which one has more snow stuck to the tire. You guessed it, it is the one with snow tires and that is not by chance or coincidence, but by design.

[mryakan]

Although it does not explain it like in the material I read in terms of how snow sticks better to snow, it does highlight how the snow tires are supposed to lock-in snow as opposed to expelling it. Just read highlighted sections.


http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/ca/en/continental/automobile/themes/pcar/winter/contiwintercontact_ts_810/cwc_ts_810_en.html

The ContiWinterContactTM TS 810 for the medium-size and high-end categories is designed to provide excellent handling in winter conditions, superb comfort, high mileage and good braking and wet-weather performance. The highly structured inside of the tire´s tread provides many biting edges to ensure maximum traction on snow and wet roads. Thicker sipes with their sipe spacers on the inside of the tire keep the sipes open when they pass through the ground contact area. This makes the sipe fill up with more snow and boosts the amount of extra grip on roads in winter conditions. This makes it a particularly well-balanced winter tire for the premium segment.


http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/automobile/general/downloadarea/download/reifengrundlagen_en.pdf

page 25

Tread pattern
The tread pattern used on a winter tyre is particularly
effective on snow and slush. In these conditions, the
rotation of the wheel presses the snow into the wider
grooves used on this type of tyre, thereby generating
additional traction.

Sipes
When setting off, rows of fine lateral sipes enable the
tread blocks to flex and bite deeper into the ice or
snow for better traction.

[Critter7r]

Actually, avalanches don't describe the theory, but the snow hanging on to itself up until it's too heavy to do that anymore, does.

[mryakan]

Actually, avalanches don't describe the theory, but the snow hanging on to itself up until it's too heavy to do that anymore, does.
Yeah, snow ball rolling down a hill are an example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_effect), ever wonder why they get bigger? Try rolling a basket ball down a hill and see if it picks up anything.

[GunnerNell]

So wait, you guys are saying I should dismount my tires and drive on basketballs???

Actually, I read those quoted statements as evidence in support of my point. You started the bold where it says those sipes "fill up" with snow to increase traction. Let's look a little earlier in the quoted part where it says the tread is designed to "keep the sipes open" so they can do that. I believe you are misinterpreting the message there. Rather than having the snow getting jammed "up" into the sipes and being retained there, the open sipes are allowing some of the snow to remain unpacked around the stuff the tire lugs press down. That is, some of the snow gets into the sipes momentarily, stays higher, and allows the tire to grip it just a little more. That's why, as I said in an earlier post, when you look at the tracks made by snow tires, you can see the exact tread pattern of the tire that made it. The snow that was momentarily in the sipes, stayed on the road where it was. If the sipes were picking it up and filling up, that snow would not still be on the ground. Since you guys didn't like my avalanche analogy, here's another one for you to try on -- assume you're sitting on a sled at the top of the hill, ready to push off. Do you want to have mittens on, or do you want gloves which allow you to jam your individual fingers into the snow to get a better grip? I think the spaces between the fingers are like open sipes, whereas mittens would be more like sipes that had filled up with snow that had stayed there.

[mryakan]

So wait, you guys are saying I should dismount my tires and drive on basketballs???
That is how you interpreted the posts? WOW, I am speechless.:eyecrazy I guess you missed the whole point of baskeballs being rubber and not picking up snow while snowballs stick to other snow and grow, it seems not so complicated to me!

Anyway believe what you want man, I am just passing the message, not making stuff up. I just wonder why my snow tires collect all the snow when I drive a bit around the snow packed parking lot while the guys with the all season tires have there rubber clear! Just coincidence I guess, EVERY TIME! :confused

[samger2]

Good topic here. Lots of good info.

The easiest way that I always steer my customers away from all seasons and into snows is the simple statement that all season tires are good in every category and built to perform as such. Snow tires are EXCELLENT in their specific category...summer tires are EXCELLENT in their specific category. So when dealing with your safety and the safety of your family, why would you choose a tire that is simply "good" when there's a pretty certain chance you'll need it to be "excellent"?

[mryakan]

Good topic here. Lots of good info.

The easiest way that I always steer my customers away from all seasons and into snows is the simple statement that all season tires are average in every category and built to perform as such. Snow tires are EXCELLENT in their specific category...summer tires are EXCELLENT in their specific category. So when dealing with your safety and the safety of your family, why would you choose a tire that is simply "good" when there's a pretty certain chance you'll need it to be "excellent"?
fixed :). The only thing I can think of all seasons being good at is tread life and maybe that combined with the reluctance to swap tire is what makes them so popular. For your average commuter car, I don't see a problem with them outside of winter weather, since most commuter cars don't push the limits of their tire adhesion. However with higher performance cars they are average at best.

[GunnerNell]

No, I didn't miss any of your points, I just don't think you've interpreted the written or physical information correctly. If you were correct, why would your tires not grow and grow to the point where they are huge round snowballs? In fact, as you've pointed out, they're RUBBER, and they're designed to not pick up the snow. As I said some posts ago, and you apparently missed, I have seen poorly designed tires that have picked up and retained the snow, and believe me, it's not a pretty sight. For one thing, the snow turns to ice in a revolution or two, and the tire totally loses grip. If you know snow, you know that it turns to ice quickly when going through warming/cooling cycles (think how your tires warm up while driving, even on the coldest days), and snow does not stick to ice. In fact, fresh snow on top of an icy road is the next worst thing to freezing rain for driving.

But samger, one thing mryakan and I do agree on, and that is that how one drives is a critical factor, no matter what tires you've got on. I also agree that if you want to hot-dog in the snow and if you want to go places where the snow is deep and the plows are a rare sight, you'll definitely want snow tires. For me, plows are fairly quick to get the worst of the snow off the roads, I've been driving in the stuff for almost 50 years and I know how to do it (and safely, I might add), and I don't care to fool around (as I used to do) with dedicated snows for part of the year, which do not perform as well on dry roads which I drive on most of the winter anyway. I also agree with mryakan that we've beat this poor horse enough and are unlikely to change each others' minds. Let's just all remember that space is your friend in the snow -- keep as much space as possible between you and the guys around you and the hazards you come upon.

[mryakan]

But samger, one thing mryakan and I do agree on, and that is that how one drives is a critical factor, no matter what tires you've got on. I also agree that if you want to hot-dog in the snow and if you want to go places where the snow is deep and the plows are a rare sight, you'll definitely want snow tires. For me, plows are fairly quick to get the worst of the snow off the roads, I've been driving in the stuff for almost 50 years and I know how to do it (and safely, I might add), and I don't care to fool around (as I used to do) with dedicated snows for part of the year, which do not perform as well on dry roads which I drive on most of the winter anyway. I also agree with mryakan that we've beat this poor horse enough and are unlikely to change each others' minds. Let's just all remember that space is your friend in the snow -- keep as much space as possible between you and the guys around you and the hazards you come upon.
+1. It is the combination of porper equipment and proper driving habits that is essential in winter weather, one is not enough without the other.

What I recommend for someone who wants good dry weather handling/grip and doesn't want to sacrifice much snow/ice handling, is to get the performance snow tires. I have the ContiWinterContact TS810S, which handle great in dry (seriously, I have taken corners at 80% the capability of the UHP summer tires when roads are dry and not too cold). They don't lean much and are not squishy, and their snow/ice handling is way better than all seasons, though not quite as good as full-out snows in the deep stuff. They also have higher speed rating which I tested to the max :shifty, so that comes in handy depending on where you drive (e.g. I assume auto-bahn guys don't want to be limited to 160-180 kph during dry winter trips). They work great for areas where the roads get cleared regularly.