Best engine for FI? M50 x M52(iron) x M52Tu(aluminum) x M54

[andreaspb]

Hi Guys!

So, yesterday I bought myself an 93 320i Coupe just for racing.
It has an M50 block wich is TOTALY destroyed by corrosion, so I am going to buy a new engine. What one would you recommend for hi boosting?

I have great experience. My daily driver is an turbo 95 325i wich I'm going to stock it back and sell. Will use all my "DIY" turbokit on the new project.

I heard that the M52B28 would be the excellent choice due to the square 84x84 and, of course, the forged crankshaft. But I was looking at the R/L (Connecting Rod Ratio) and it's beyond the .30 wich would be the highest tolerance.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW:
So, what should I do? Wich one would be the best? Does Dual Vanos be a great advance for racing and turbo?

WHAT I WILL DO:
Drag Racing (hi power config. Trying an 11sec car. 500whp +-) and Track Days. Some drifting also as soon as it popularizes here (both at low boost, low power configs) .
Use an totally programmable ECU
Use 2 Bar of boost
Use Ethanol as fuel (no worries with compression ratios)
No interior, A/C, powersteering... All racing.
Have fun with a car that wont be a Time-bomb every race, so no extreme limits.


Thanks guys. I'm hoping I found a good forum for BMW's now... :redspot

[BigM62]

I know what you are asking, and I totally agree with your research. But remember, the most important and crucial aspect of an engine build is the build itself. You can get the most robust engine and top shelf parts, but it is the build/tune itself that really matters. Custom work is a delicate and precise endeavor. But I am sure you already know that. :cool

[andreaspb]

Hello, BigM62!

Thanks for your reply! I TOTALLY agree with you. It's for sure that I will rebuild the engine taking care of the minimum details, using molykote, doing complete balancing, etc.

The EFI that I use is the Fueltech. It's really great, used by years here in Brazil and now you guys have it also on US :)

But what I'm really looking for in this thread is to know what would be the best block and wha should be better: more stroke or better R/L? I usually like engines with good R/L so it can rev more...

Thanks again!

[Def]

You can't rev any of those motors much past 7k RPM without SERIOUS valvetrain work due to the hydraulic lash adjusters in the valvetrain, so the rod/stroke ratio is a moot point IMO. Hell, the SR20DET has a rod/stroke ratio of a little less than 1.6 and I've seen people rev them to over 10,500 RPM(obviously a very expensive full drag build, but they made good power out to there with a BIG turbo).

I'm as much of a weight reducer as anybody, especially up front on a big I6 block, but I think the M52(iron) is your best bet since reliability is worth way more than 40 lbs up front. The aluminum M52 doesn't use steel sleeves IIRC, so you'd need to add that into the equation if you were going to go with more than a few PSI of boost.

I think there really is something to be said of keeping things simple and just paying attention to details on a build. No point in beating your head against a wall on hard details to achieve just to make things slightly better on paper(been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

M52 iron with forged pistons and nice rods will give you a reliable 500 rwhp. Just concentrate on cooling if you're going to use 500 rwhp out on the track.

[Colby Colbs]

i'll be revving mine upwards of 9k rpm :)

[EMC]

i'll be revving mine upwards of 9k rpm :)

You are crazy! I would run more boost and less rpm. What do your pistons weigh compared to the stockers?

[techno550]

You can't rev any of those motors much past 7k RPM without SERIOUS valvetrain work due to the hydraulic lash adjusters in the valvetrain, so the rod/stroke ratio is a moot point IMO. Hell, the SR20DET has a rod/stroke ratio of a little less than 1.6 and I've seen people rev them to over 10,500 RPM(obviously a very expensive full drag build, but they made good power out to there with a BIG turbo).
The weak link isn't the valvetrain. Stock (spring limited) is fine to 8k or so. The crank is the weak link. (or the TV damper, depending on your point of view.)
all the M cars are hydraulic lifters now as well.


I'm as much of a weight reducer as anybody, especially up front on a big I6 block, but I think the M52(iron) is your best bet since reliability is worth way more than 40 lbs up front. The aluminum M52 doesn't use steel sleeves IIRC, so you'd need to add that into the equation if you were going to go with more than a few PSI of boost.

I think there really is something to be said of keeping things simple and just paying attention to details on a build. No point in beating your head against a wall on hard details to achieve just to make things slightly better on paper(been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

M52 iron with forged pistons and nice rods will give you a reliable 500 rwhp. Just concentrate on cooling if you're going to use 500 rwhp out on the track.
Given his goals, this is certainly the easier (and likely cheaper and smarter) route.


i'll be revving mine upwards of 9k rpm :)
not for long, at least not with a US crank and damper.

[milKt]

The weak link isn't the valvetrain. Stock (spring limited) is fine to 8k or so. The crank is the weak link. (or the TV damper, depending on your point of view.)
all the M cars are hydraulic lifters now as well.

not for long, at least not with a US crank and damper.

So which springs (if stock springs are the limiter)
and which crank/damper? (euro cranks can handle this?)

[GT35Rm3]

The weak link isn't the valvetrain. Stock (spring limited) is fine to 8k or so. The crank is the weak link. (or the TV damper, depending on your point of view.)
all the M cars are hydraulic lifters now as well.


Given his goals, this is certainly the easier (and likely cheaper and smarter) route.


not for long, at least not with a US crank and damper.

This is the first time I have heard this. It has always been my understanding that it was the valvetrain.

I dont think I have ever heard of anyone with crank failure.

[bluejeansonfire]

i'll be revving mine upwards of 9k rpm :)

with the 89.6?

for dyno/drag someone goes to 8600 with stock head, with that crank.... but i dont think it'd be a good idea to do that outside of those two situations and on a regular basis


To OP: I think the m54 is a bad call for huge boost without new cylinder liners, steel headbolt inserts. I'm testing the cylindre liners as we speak, they're holding but 1.25mm isn't much.

BTW, the aluminum m52 does have steel cylinder sleeves, just as the m54, 1.5mm stock, for big boost go big siamesed as ICS plans to do for their stage 4. Weight reduction is great but expensive to do safely on this subject. If you overbore the m54/m52 'lums, I'd say .020, .5mm is the limit and pushing it as it cuts the liner down to 1.25mm.
Go cast iron, it's a easier safer bet and you'll be far less stressed when torquing down those head bolts.

[Ianik]

Go cast iron, it's a easier safer bet and you'll be far less stressed when torquing down those head bolts.

Are'nt ARP's just the good solution against stripping the threads ? They would put less stress like they are'nt moving in block threads while torquing.

[GotBHP?]

This is the first time I have heard this. It has always been my understanding that it was the valvetrain.

I dont think I have ever heard of anyone with crank failure.

Harmonics seem to be the issue with the bottom end on anything over 7400 rpm. The crank itself might not be the most likely thing to fail, but everything attached to it isn't going to last very long.

[Colby Colbs]

I'm not going to have a problem, my motors good for whatever i throw at it. the people that Ive worked with to make this possible are soo confident that they guaranteed the motor... peace and mind is priceless! I'd like to share the spec with you but its all confidential, sorry.

[Def]

The weak link isn't the valvetrain. Stock (spring limited) is fine to 8k or so. The crank is the weak link. (or the TV damper, depending on your point of view.)
all the M cars are hydraulic lifters now as well.

The shorter stroke cranks don't seem to have quite the same problem as the S52 motors. Not sure if the nat frequency is higher, but it makes sense. HLA can handle high RPM if designed for it, but I bet the M5x ones will pump down with extended 7.5k+ rpm usage. I do agree that the life span of a 90s Bmw I6 above 7k rpm will not be very long.


I'm not going to have a problem, my motors good for whatever i throw at it. the people that Ive worked with to make this possible are soo confident that they guaranteed the motor... peace and mind is priceless! I'd like to share the spec with you but its all confidential, sorry.

Guaranteed for how long? It will probably last a few dozen hours if components are beefed up from stock, but the fundamental problem will remain. I'm betting none of "your people" even know what a torsional vibration is...

[danse]

Great dig Def, its funny how so many people who have no clue get sold on how its a secret to make this or do that. There is no secret about engine building its all in attention to detail, but you need someone who has vested the time in failure analysis to build a long lasting engine. But no matter what you do you can only overcome basic design limitations to a certain degree.

[techno550]

The shorter stroke cranks don't seem to have quite the same problem as the S52 motors. Not sure if the nat frequency is higher, but it makes sense. HLA can handle high RPM if designed for it, but I bet the M5x ones will pump down with extended 7.5k+ rpm usage. I do agree that the life span of a 90s Bmw I6 above 7k rpm will not be very long.
Some of that is that the 2.5 crank is cast. Cast iron cranks have much better self damping properties than forged.



Guaranteed for how long? It will probably last a few dozen hours if components are beefed up from stock, but the fundamental problem will remain. I'm betting none of "your people" even know what a torsional vibration is...
this is a very very common problem. Like taking a bmw crank to a shop with a 2 plane balancer. Of course they say "yea, we can do that." and they very well might "do them all the time". Doesn't mean its even remotely correct.


Great dig Def, its funny how so many people who have no clue get sold on how its a secret to make this or do that. There is no secret about engine building its all in attention to detail, but you need someone who has vested the time in failure analysis to build a long lasting engine. But no matter what you do you can only overcome basic design limitations to a certain degree.

Its not always about secrets. sometimes its about basic understanding. Its astounding how many don't understand what they are doing. Even at machine shops, engine builders, etc.

Its also amusing to see how many see something done once and assume the thing that did it can do it forever.

[GotBHP?]

I'm not going to have a problem, my motors good for whatever i throw at it.

No offense, but the phrase "famous last words" has never been so appropriate.

[Colby Colbs]

The shorter stroke cranks don't seem to have quite the same problem as the S52 motors. Not sure if the nat frequency is higher, but it makes sense. HLA can handle high RPM if designed for it, but I bet the M5x ones will pump down with extended 7.5k+ rpm usage. I do agree that the life span of a 90s Bmw I6 above 7k rpm will not be very long.



Guaranteed for how long? It will probably last a few dozen hours if components are beefed up from stock, but the fundamental problem will remain. I'm betting none of "your people" even know what a torsional vibration is...

I'm curious, why do you need to know about the guarantee on my engine?? No things arn't just beefed up from stock. They were totally re-designed. You've also got to be kidding about the torsional vibration comment...


No offense, but the phrase "famous last words" has never been so appropriate.

Yeah?! How so!?

[Def]

I'm curious, why do you need to know about the guarantee on my engine?? No things arn't just beefed up from stock. They were totally re-designed. You've also got to be kidding about the torsional vibration comment...


I don't really care about your short lived engine to tell you the truth. The natural frequency won't be changed much because you're still going to be using a billet/forged steel crank of about the same dimensions as stock. That equals about the same natural freq.

Now that I think about it, you probably don't know what a torsional vibration is either. I guess ignorance is bliss.

[bluejeansonfire]

Are'nt ARP's just the good solution against stripping the threads ? They would put less stress like they are'nt moving in block threads while torquing.
Aluminum motors use longer thread engagement than iron blocks, ARP does not make a stud for those applications, some people have used the ARPs, they strip out under boost by pulling the threads out. Raceware on the other hand, has a successful solution people have not had an issue with, and may well be the way to go. In some motorsports applications, the m54 has needed inserts to keep the threads from coming up, even with proper hardware.

[stimpee]

I'm curious, why do you need to know about the guarantee on my engine?? No things arn't just beefed up from stock. They were totally re-designed. You've also got to be kidding about the torsional vibration comment...


If you say "you've also got to be kidding about the torsional vibration comment...", then you have just demonstrated the depth of your knowledge about the dynamics of inline six cylinder engines. Which is apparently very little. :help

But don't worry, if you are spinning a BMW inline 6 (non S54) at 8000rpm+ for any length of time, and have done nothing to deal with torsional harmonics of the crankshaft, you will learn about it soon enough, so never fear!!

Let the learnin' begin!!!

:lol

[GotBHP?]

You've also got to be kidding about the torsional vibration comment...


Yeah?! How so!?

I think you have just answered your own question right there...

[andreaspb]

GREAT GREAT GREAT info here, Guys!

Love to see a good debate. It's for sure that I've learned a lot from this thread. Even from the 9K RPM war going on here :lol

Well, I've decided to do so:

M52B28 (ironblock). I wasn't sure because I also like the swiftness of a light car, but it's obvious that even being a BMW, the headbolts still an issue as other Al blocks. So Iron it is!

ARP Headbolts

Head: Port and polish "stage I" with stock valves. Solid lifters (Schrick?) Good heavy duty springs and retainers, etc (supertech? Bullet? VAC?).

Pistons: No ideia yet... was thinking of start using stock ones and when i was done, forjed low compression ones.

Rods: As pistons, thinked to leave the stock ones for now (until July), then buy ones and officially rebuild all the engine. BUT I found PAUTER rods for a limited time offer yesterday at a RIDICULOUS price. Problem is... they describes it as for EURO M3. No more info. I couldn't find also if they are good for me or not (135 or 140mm). Any ideas? Is PAUTER good ones?

Rest: Polish the Cranck, new bearings, ALL Molykoted (that one I won't change my mind), synthetic oil, bla bla bla.


What do you think of this config for 1.5 Bar (stock internals) and 7.5K RPM (head as described)?

[Colby Colbs]

sound great but do your self a favor and just build the whole motor while you have it all apart. wants you get it running you want to minimize down time later, thats my opinion anyway... euro rods? i wouldnt order thoes even if there on sale lol, prob wont work out too well lol

[FIthis]

I'm not going to have a problem, my motors good for whatever i throw at it. the people that Ive worked with to make this possible are soo confident that they guaranteed the motor... peace and mind is priceless! I'd like to share the spec with you but its all confidential, sorry.

You are bragging about this engine of yours that you dont even have yet in so many threads...

^ Is that useful information to help answer the OPs questions? No. So then wtf is your point in being in any of these threads bragging if your not going to help?

Do us all a favor and either help out or stfu until this miracle engine of yours is done, (still working), and you can talk about it.

[Ianik]

Aluminum motors use longer thread engagement than iron blocks, ARP does not make a stud for those applications, some people have used the ARPs, they strip out under boost by pulling the threads out. Raceware on the other hand, has a successful solution people have not had an issue with, and may well be the way to go. In some motorsports applications, the m54 has needed inserts to keep the threads from coming up, even with proper hardware.

Just to say, ok for the weak design of the aluminum blocks but ARP does make an application for aluminum M52 / M54 head bolts.

I was just wondering how it would prevent the threads from stripping as I will only build a high compression N/A M52 from a never overheated aluminum M52...

[bluejeansonfire]

Just to say, ok for the weak design of the aluminum blocks but ARP does make an application for aluminum M52 / M54 head bolts.

I was just wondering how it would prevent the threads from stripping as I will only build a high compression N/A M52 from a never overheated aluminum M52...

uuhh, no arp does not make a part for that application, they make one length studs for the m5x family. If you want to try those, go ahead, but they have failed in other cars before.

please provide a part number

Some uninformed VAC reps may claim they have a special custom made ARP part (as they do have some custom ARP stuff), but the part they sell you is raceware for the aluminum engines.

[Ianik]

uuhh, no arp does not make a part for that application, they make one length studs for the m5x family. If you want to try those, go ahead, but they have failed in other cars before.

please provide a part number

Some uninformed VAC reps may claim they have a special custom made ARP part (as they do have some custom ARP stuff), but the part they sell you is raceware for the aluminum engines.

Thanks for the explanation..

sorry to be insistant, but I'm not really fine tuned in english :D:D

Did you mean that I will be ok with M54 Raceware fasteners for my NA application ? Or are they prone to fail ?

[bluejeansonfire]

Thanks for the explanation..

sorry to be insistant, but I'm not really fine tuned in english :D:D

Did you mean that I will be ok with M54 Raceware fasteners for my NA application ? Or are they prone to fail ?

as far as i know, no one has had any failures with raceware studs, NA or FI on the m54 application.

[RRdawho?]

On a lighter note:

has anyone seen the piston and crank on a F1 Engine? Its insane! The stroke (or lackthereof) is interesting, as is the minimalistic nature of the F1 Piston. Then again, they don't need to have it last long...just long enough for the rules.

[Ianik]

Ok thank you. ;)

[BigM62]

If you say "you've also got to be kidding about the torsional vibration comment...", then you have just demonstrated the depth of your knowledge about the dynamics of inline six cylinder engines. Which is apparently very little. :help

But don't worry, if you are spinning a BMW inline 6 (non S54) at 8000rpm+ for any length of time, and have done nothing to deal with torsional harmonics of the crankshaft, you will learn about it soon enough, so never fear!!

Let the learnin' begin!!!

:lol

Damn I miss Stimpee. :buttrock

[andreaspb]

First post and I love this forum already. First time ever to get real quality answers for my questions! Really appreciate it, guys! Thanks a lot!


Well, about the rods, anyone just knows the sizes? are the Euro S50/52 the same size of rods then the M52? That's all I need to know. Really wishing to order them. The price it's about 600US$ only. Set, brand new and with ARP 2000 studs. For me over here (BR) it's really cheap!

[andreaspb]

Hey! After searching A LOT, I found this!

Hope it's usefull for anybody.


Bmw E36 Pic 'n Mix List (CORRECTED)

(V) = Vanos (NV = Non Vanos)

320 has a 66mm stoke length 80mm bore and a rod length of 135mm(NV) or 140mm(V)

323 has a 75mm stoke length 84mm bore and a rod length of 140mm(V)

325 has has a 75mm stoke length 84mm bore and a rod length of 135mm(NV) or 140mm(V)

328 has a 84mm stoke length 84mm bore and a rod length of 135mm(V)

M3 3.0 both Euro and US - has a 85.8 stoke length and a 86mm bore and rod length of 135mm

M3 3.2 Euro - stoke of 91mm and a bore of 86.4mm - rod length of 140mm

Euro engines are more powerful because, they use individual throttle bodies worth around 20fwhp on a tuned engine. They have solid lifters which allow the higher redline, a less restrictive intake design and a larger diameter exhuast manifold.

[Black Mamba]

Hey! After searching A LOT, I found this!

Hope it's usefull for anybody.


Bmw E36 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=18082972#)Pic 'n Mix List

(V) = Vanos (NV = Non Vanos)

320 has a 66mm stoke length 80mm bore and a rod length of 135mm(NV) or 140mm(V)

323 has a 75mm stoke length 84mm bore and a rod length of 140mm(V)

325 has has a 75mm stoke length 84mm bore and a rod length of 135mm(NV) or 140mm(V)

328 has a 84mm stoke length 84mm bore and a rod length of 140mm(V)

M3 3.0 both Euro and US - has a 85.8 stoke length and a 86mm bore and rod length of 135mm

M3 3.2 Euro and US - stoke of 91mm and a bore of 86.4mm - rod length of 135mm

Euro engines are more powerful because, they use individual throttle bodies worth around 20fwhp on a tuned engine. They have solid lifters which allow the higher redline, a less restrictive intake design and a larger diameter exhuast manifold.


M3 3.2 US has a stroke of 89,6mm. It's 91 only on the Euro M3.

the 328 has also 135mm rods

[Laimis]

Also Euro M3 rods are 140+ mm

[andreaspb]

Hmmm so what I found was WRONG. Damn internet. hahahaha

Ok, I've corrected the list! Take a look!

[techno550]

On a lighter note:

has anyone seen the piston and crank on a F1 Engine? Its insane! The stroke (or lackthereof) is interesting, as is the minimalistic nature of the F1 Piston. Then again, they don't need to have it last long...just long enough for the rules.

This brings up an interesting related point.
The crank on an F1 engine must follow a very specific material specification. One way of trying to mechanically limit the motors.


On the "balancing fixes harmonics" side of things... we've all see the effects of harmonics in the breaking of a wine glass by an opera singer. If that wine glass were to be balanced would it not break?

[milKt]

If a tree were to fall in the deep woods,
would it need to be made of a specific material
in order to be heard?

[stimpee]

On the "balancing fixes harmonics" side of things... we've all see the effects of harmonics in the breaking of a wine glass by an opera singer. If that wine glass were to be balanced would it not break?

How do you "balance" a wine glass?

In any case, my input to the discussion is this:

Balancing an object does not imbibe it with any particular "magic", all it does is help minimize or avoid things that cause "excitations" due to the object's own motion.

You can't "fix" harmonics, you can only move them around by either moving, removing, or adding mass, or by changing stiffness. You can also change the likelihood of these "harmonics" being excited by changing, or damping, inputs. In the case of the wine glass, it breaks because the opera singer hits a frequency (particular note) that excites a natural frequency of the glass.

As an engineer, you cannot design out natural frequencies, they will always exist. You can simply try to understand what they are, and then choose appropriate operating environments and conditions so that those frequencies are not excited, or the ones that are excited are higher mode frequencies where the amplitudes will not cause structural failures.

[bluejeansonfire]

to the author, and sorry for the ot, mais oi brasileiro, e paulista tambem!

[onetrillionrpm]

what about external balancing?

[techno550]

How do you "balance" a wine glass?

In any case, my input to the discussion is this:

Balancing an object does not imbibe it with any particular "magic", all it does is help minimize or avoid things that cause "excitations" due to the object's own motion.

You can't "fix" harmonics, you can only move them around by either moving, removing, or adding mass, or by changing stiffness. You can also change the likelihood of these "harmonics" being excited by changing, or damping, inputs. In the case of the wine glass, it breaks because the opera singer hits a frequency (particular note) that excites a natural frequency of the glass.

As an engineer, you cannot design out natural frequencies, they will always exist. You can simply try to understand what they are, and then choose appropriate operating environments and conditions so that those frequencies are not excited, or the ones that are excited are higher mode frequencies where the amplitudes will not cause structural failures.

That was my point. :)

you could spin a wine glass to its resonant frequency too. The method of excitation isn't necessarily of great importance.

With the wine glass, no amount of "balancing" will make it not resonate and break. Its natural frequency is its natural frequency. The same is true for any object.
You can, however, prevent the failure with damping.

The same applies to cranks. No amount of balancing will get rid of the natural resonant frequency. You can move it, but not by much. not by enough to make a difference. The only solution is adequate damping.

[onetrillionrpm]

The only solution is adequate damping.

Like I said..work on the outside of the engine..

[stimpee]

Like I said..work on the outside of the engine..

That is essentially what Mike is saying, although it is not through external balancing that you will help the situation, but through external damping. You either need to damp the inputs that are exciting the natural frequency, and/or damp the response of the crank to those inputs to keep the amplitude down so that the stresses and deformations don't run away and cause failure...

[m3jasper]

That is essentially what Mike is saying, although it is not through external balancing that you will help the situation, but through external damping. You either need to damp the inputs that are exciting the natural frequency, and/or damp the response of the crank to those inputs to keep the amplitude down so that the stresses and deformations don't run away and cause failure...
+1

Very well stated!

[A4RingedONE8T]

That is essentially what Mike is saying, although it is not through external balancing that you will help the situation, but through external damping. You either need to damp the inputs that are exciting the natural frequency, and/or damp the response of the crank to those inputs to keep the amplitude down so that the stresses and deformations don't run away and cause failure...

I come from VW/Audi world and there are a few companies that make external dampener pulleys for the 1.8T and VR6 to help with crank harmonics at higher RPM's. For what reason has no one done such a thing for the M5x/S5x engines? Are the harmonics harder to "break" on a straight 6cyl crank opposed to a smaller (shorter) crank?

[stimpee]

I come from VW/Audi world and there are a few companies that make external dampener pulleys for the 1.8T and VR6 to help with crank harmonics at higher RPM's. For what reason has no one done such a thing for the M5x/S5x engines? Are the harmonics harder to "break" on a straight 6cyl crank opposed to a smaller (shorter) crank?

I don't know the answer to this question, but perhaps Mike or others know more. In my case, I have an S54 that is capable of winding to 8k rpm. That is more than enough for me, and frankly even that rarely gets used, as I try to keep the revs under 7500 most of the time due to concerns over rod bearing longevity (even post recall), etc.

That being said, I will address a pet peeve here. :help

When speaking of vibrations, harmonics, and even suspensions, there is no such thing as "dampening", unless you are trying to make the vibrating object, or the suspension wet. The correct term is damping. Unfortunately, it has become so widely accepted, even by so-called "experts" to use the term dampening, that it is truly driving me nuts!!! You will probably see it "corrected" in the dictionary soon enough as well, as we dumb down the English language to match its actual use...

Sorry for the English lesson! :buttrock

[A4RingedONE8T]

That is essentially what Mike is saying, although it is not through external balancing that you will help the situation, but through external damping. You either need to damp the inputs that are exciting the natural frequency, and/or damp the response of the crank to those inputs to keep the amplitude down so that the stresses and deformations don't run away and cause failure...


I don't know the answer to this question, but perhaps Mike or others know more. In my case, I have an S54 that is capable of winding to 8k rpm. That is more than enough for me, and frankly even that rarely gets used, as I try to keep the revs under 7500 most of the time due to concerns over rod bearing longevity (even post recall), etc.

That being said, I will address a pet peeve here. :help

When speaking of vibrations, harmonics, and even suspensions, there is no such thing as "dampening", unless you are trying to make the vibrating object, or the suspension wet. The correct term is damping. Unfortunately, it has become so widely accepted, even by so-called "experts" to use the term dampening, that it is truly driving me nuts!!! You will probably see it "corrected" in the dictionary soon enough as well, as we dumb down the English language to match its actual use...

Sorry for the English lesson! :buttrock

haha appreciate the FYI, even Wiki has the same definition for both "damper" and "dampener" - device that deadens, restrains, or depresses however dampener also states to make wet as a second definition. I will correct my terminology in the future :)

[ritoab]

Adam Hale PEI330 addressed this in his last build. It would be interesting to get his input. Keep in mind his build was a M54 which he had a custom harmonic built for his application.

[GEN3RIC]

i'll be revving mine upwards of 9k rpm :)
Guys, don't be so quick to judge. He never said anything about doing it "reliably" or "safely" or "more than once". :lol

[stimpee]

I'm not going to have a problem, my motors good for whatever i throw at it. ...


Guys, don't be so quick to judge. He never said anything about doing it "reliably" or "safely" or "more than once". :lol

:dunno

Certainly seemed implied to me, hence the abuse...

[andreaspb]

More good info....

Now, about the damping, I agree with the balancing vs. damping discussed here. Balancing wouldn't change the phisical properties of ressonance. And that's a crucial factor since the 6 cilinder engines aren't good for reving up.

Actually a famous hater of the sixiers was Henry Ford! As long as he was running Ford, no 6 bangers was made for a simple reason: Engines are 4 stroke! 6 is NOT divisible by 4, so it WILL most likely had problems with ressonance....

Of course technology changed everything up, but for extreme situations he was right. A lot of work has to be done to really rev up an 3, 5, 6 and 10 cilinder engines....




to the author, and sorry for the ot, mais oi brasileiro, e paulista tambem!

Não acredito... sou paulista também! Mas estou morando no interior do RS! Você mora nos EUA agora?

Translation: Can't belive it! I'm from São Paulo to! I'm livin now at Rio Grande do Sul! Are you living in US now?

[GEN3RIC]

:dunno

Certainly seemed implied to me, hence the abuse...
Guess your sarcasm detector is broken.

[stimpee]

Guess your sarcasm detector is broken.

I knew you were being sarcastic in general but I thought that your comment was being smart-assical based on his initial "I'm gonna spin 9k rpm" comment, not considering the subsequent spouting.

My bad!

;)

[renegadeforce]

aside from all this why was the m50 ruled out of the equation in the beginning?

[Black Mamba]

Não acredito... sou paulista também! Mas estou morando no interior do RS! Você mora nos EUA agora?

Translation: Can't belive it! I'm from São Paulo to! I'm livin now at Rio Grande do Sul! Are you living in US now?

I guess we are not that far from each other, I live in Montevideo-Uruguay.

I'm building a Frankenstein engine. M50 block, S52 crank, forged 135mm rods, custom pistons (MaximumPSI/Wisecos). Ported head, oversize valves, Turbo cams...a lot more stuff.

I have almost everything ready, just waiting for the pistons. Mike Radowski from MaximumPSI is bringing them with him next friday. We should have the car runing in a couple days.
We will be staying at Punta del Este until Monday 18th if you feel like taking a quick flight...and a couple beers also.

With the old engine (2.8L) car was pushing 500hp (M3 srick cams)@20 PSI, I guess now we will be around to 600hp @ 20 PSI...plus VAC turbo cams...race gas tune and 25-28 PSI, I hope we get close to 700HP.

[andreaspb]

Good question... why the M50 is out? It's iron also...

I'm guessing the iron M52 has a stronger block?



I guess we are not that far from each other, I live in Montevideo-Uruguay.

I'm building a Frankenstein engine. M50 block, S52 crank, forged 135mm rods, custom pistons (MaximumPSI/Wisecos). Ported head, oversize valves, Turbo cams...a lot more stuff.

I have almost everything ready, just waiting for the pistons. Mike Radowski from MaximumPSI is bringing them with him next friday. We should have the car runing in a couple days.
We will be staying at Punta del Este until Monday 18th if you feel like taking a quick flight...and a couple beers also.

With the old engine (2.8L) car was pushing 500hp (M3 srick cams)@20 PSI, I guess now we will be around to 600hp @ 20 PSI...plus VAC turbo cams...race gas tune and 25-28 PSI, I hope we get close to 700HP.


Will ya look at that!
Un hermano Uruguayo aquí cerca!
Si, vivo en Santa Cruz do Sul, en el centro del Rio Grande do Sul. Queda-se a 150Km de Porto Alegre e 800Km de tu ciudad, Motevideo (Me encanta!!!!)

Will keep saying in english so everybody understands, but is GREAT to find some bimmerfans nearby!

Ow I would love to go to Punta to know your beast. It's to bad I'm working a lot right now. But is has been about 3 years that I'm planning on getting vacations and go tu Punta! Now I have one more reason to go ehehhe.

Hey! nice config you are getting. Any chance of seeing you running on the VeloPark? I would meet you there for shure!!! :buttrock

How are the prices of performance parts over there? Just pass me on the head to do my shopping on punta when it's time! Even for your used parts maybe :)

My best regards, hermano! let's keep in touch! :D

[andreaspb]

Hey, Black Mamba! How's your engine doing? any photos??

Very curious.

Aahhh, by the way, My racing bimmer is in the shop right now to get out the engine and gearbox.

Next month I think I will buy the engine.
I guess it would be a M52B28....

[bmmrr]

can anyone provide me a part number or a link of after market head studs for a aluminium block m52b28 ?

thanks

[andreaspb]

As nobody helped you I will try....

Have you tried on ARP oficial site?

[bmmrr]

I tried everywhere, but couldnt find arp. I heard raceware studs but dont know if it is ok for fi engine.

[option1283]

M3 3.2 US has a stroke of 89,6mm. It's 91 only on the Euro M3.

the 328 has also 135mm rods

so if the 325i rod is 135mm
wil the 328I rod fit in there?? being 135mm aswell??
comfused i though m52 rods and M50 were diferent:(:(

[andreaspb]

Yep! they fit! :)

[Yahweh]

Any progress on the build?