Kit vs DIY

[ereid74]

I'm a HUGE DIY guy, I never go to the shop for anything. I am comfortable with my fab work and was wondering if you experinced guys thought it was worth the extra money to buy a complete bolt on kit for my bimmer? I know it will be cheaper (probably alot) to buy individual peices, but I have heard that kits are made to work together? Will the extra money mean extra power? I'm pretty sure you can make your own individual peices 'work together'. So im just feeling out how you guys feel! :buttrockMerry Christmas! :buttrock

[MikeE36]

I'm a HUGE DIY guy, I never go to the shop for anything. I am comfortable with my fab work and was wondering if you experinced guys thought it was worth the extra money to buy a complete bolt on kit for my bimmer? I know it will be cheaper (probably alot) to buy individual peices, but I have heard that kits are made to work together? Will the extra money mean extra power? I'm pretty sure you can make your own individual peices 'work together'. So im just feeling out how you guys feel! :buttrockMerry Christmas! :buttrock

The number one thing is tuning. If you save all this money fabbing your own IC pipes, downpipe, wastegate piping, and source all your parts cheaper, yes you may save some money. The problem is finding someone who will touch it with a 10 ft pole on the stock DME. Many tuners are very particular on what components you use, or if you use their components to ensure you have all the right hardware for their tune.

That said, kits kick ass if you can afford one. If you're great at DIY and can fab up all or most of the hardware, you may save some money, but if I were you I would try to secure a tuner first that will agree to tune it once all is said and done.

I would at the minimum hold off on buying injectors or MAF, as MOST tuners want you to run their injectors/MAF at the minimum to tune your car.

What are your power goals?

As far as "working together," yes each component of a kit is designed to work well with all other components. You will get a good compromise of power and spool, with great driveability. This can be achieved too using all DIY components, just don't use the "go big or go home" mentality on a few components, and cheap out on others - it won't all work well together.

Great kits to consider:

TRM : www.racersmarket.net
TT: www.techniquetuning.com
AA: www.activeautowerke.com

Good luck!

Mike

[someguy2800]

The number one thing is tuning.

That says it all. It is stupid simple to turbo one of these cars IF you can tune it. There are a few good tuners for the stock computer like AA and TRM, and many people swear by them. But the only drawback is that you are stuck with that tune forever and if you change something you need to buy a new tune.

Honestly though I think the best bet is to get a standalone right off the bat. Set up the standalone before you turbo the car and get comfortable tuning a bit and then the heavens will open before you and you can now do whatever your heart can ever imagine. Switch injectors, turbos, cams, intakes, exhaust, different fuels, run whatever mass air meter or none at all, and you never have to buy a new tune EVER again. Once its dialed in you can change stuff around all you want and all you have to do is take a few runs up and down the street and adjust where needed.

Once that is out of the way its basically just plumbing.

[ereid74]

Thanks guys for this information! I am most likely going to build my own system from the looks of it. How would i go about finding/setting up a standalone system??

[e34biturbo]

I'm a HUGE DIY guy, I never go to the shop for anything. I am comfortable with my fab work and was wondering if you experinced guys thought it was worth the extra money to buy a complete bolt on kit for my bimmer? I know it will be cheaper (probably alot) to buy individual peices, but I have heard that kits are made to work together? Will the extra money mean extra power? I'm pretty sure you can make your own individual peices 'work together'. So im just feeling out how you guys feel! :buttrockMerry Christmas! :buttrock

I say if you can fab fab it up.....:buttrock theres no feling like seeing your own work when complete...

And for tuning leave it to the pros unless you got time to learn....:alright

[pbonsalb]

The only issue with standalone is emissions and inspection. If your state plugs into OBD2 for a read, you may be in trouble. If not, think about it because it is coming eventually and your year car may or may not be grandfathered.

The other option is to find the tune first and then buy the parts that are recommended for that tune. Try AA and TT for tunes for OBD2; rumor is that TRM will offer OBD2 tunes eventually, and there may be others.

[ereid74]

Hmm I know PA deosn't currently do that but if they do, I can always get an inspection at my friends shop ; )?

[e34biturbo]

Hmm I know PA deosn't currently do that but if they do, I can always get an inspection at my friends shop ; )?

I say build it!!!!:buttrock:alright

[ramsing]

I'm currently building my own kit, as there's not much love for E34's with S52 :shifty

But for tuning I went with TRM as its going to be a DD. Standalones are great, I used them on my Mitsubishis, but there's nothing like stock DME for worry free driving. :)

Best of luck on the build :buttrock

[black bnr32]

something like buying a Maximumpsi AEM unit & tune could be a good idea. you'd get a great base tune with the ability to alter the tune too.

[LukeG]

Just be aware and shit ADDS up fast.

I love that I went the DIY route as doing this stuff is my passion, but I knew I was going to be spending a metric ton of cash. I did, but I did everything to my EXACT specification. Only labor I paid was tuning, machining the block, machining the head and custom grinding cams. And I still spent north of 20k

Once you do it, you will see that some of the kits are actually quite a freaking bargain for what you get. because in the end, to be happy and hit a solid 400whp you will spend minum $5k

But where is the fun in a kit?

[GGray]

I built my own kit and did anal overkill since I thought I would use it on track.. I ended up buying another track car..

I had a TEC3r... Honestly don't do a standalone.. Just get a good ECU tune... Especially if its a daily driven car.. If not daily driven its not so bad. Mine is a toy car..I had enough issues in the E36M3 with the Tec I won't do another one I'll buy a ecu tune.

Buildign the actual kit is not hard if you area a die hard DIY'er. it does suck up time. If your time is worth money its cheaper to buy a kit.

[ereid74]

what issues did you have with the standalone? i'm still on edge about how I am going to tune my machine...i would like to figure this out before a buy a thing!

[GGray]

I had horrible starting issues. And idle issues. Just not worth the hassle since an ecu tune also cost about 3x less than a decent standalone. For the cost of a standalone you could get a TRM multi tune. Realisticlly once I got mine tuned I never really farted with it. Too easy to blow a car up farting with a tune...

[ereid74]

Sounds like TRM multitune is feasible and flexible...should i use their injectors or what else?

[MikeE36]

Sounds like TRM multitune is feasible and flexible...should i use their injectors or what else?

Contact them for their injectors/MAF/tune/multi-tune combo. You won't regret it!

Even better... go there and get custom tuned! :)

Mike

[ereid74]

is there any tuner that you can tune your stock computer with? my neighbor has a program (forget the name) that he can pretty much control every aspect of the motor on american cars and some jap rides..he has a 800 hp turbo mustang and a turbo f 150 that he has custom tuned himself..he was wondering if there was a tuner that can tune the stock computer?

[7808]

if i was "rich", i probly still put together my own kits, just with better tools.

custom is half the fun (even though it doesnt always turn out well). for me going out and buying a turbo kit and in some peoples case having it installed wouldnt be nearly as fun or satisfiying, might as well of bought a faster car.


yes many people can tune the stock computer, theres only a hand ful of people that do it professionally tho


but I have heard that kits are made to work together? Will the extra money mean extra power? these comments - you lost me, might wana go kit lol

[Neil]

if i was "rich", i probly still put together my own kits, just with better tools.

custom is half the fun (even though it doesnt always turn out well). for me going out and buying a turbo kit and in some peoples case having it installed wouldnt be nearly as fun or satisfiying, might as well of bought a faster car.


yes many people can tune the stock computer, theres only a hand ful of people that do it professionally tho

these comments - you lost me, might wana go kit lol

Many people may be able to tune the stock OBDI ecu, but extremely few are capable of tuning a stock OBII ecu.

Neil

[LukeG]

yes many people can tune the stock computer, theres only a hand ful of people that do it well tho




Fixed that mistake for you.


And I agree with building your own was fun. If you want to see my build thread see the sig. That was about 4 months of VERY hard work lol. I have at least 400hrs in my build. But got dangit does it feel so fucking good to know I did it all myself :buttrock

Engine assembly was done by JT, I did not feel comfortable at the time doing it myself and we were supposed to do it together. Due to schedulles being jacked up, and him needing his stand. He pounded it out :buttrock And boy did he do a fabulous job!




But I have a huge passion for this and don't mind becoming anti-social for a few months just to tweak on the car whenever I get a chance :help It's not for everybody

[Shuasha]

Does the 99 323 have an M54B23? If that's the case, you have VERY limited options on tuning the stock ECU. Also, Dual Vanos makes for a really interesting stand alone experience.

[7808]

pretty sure 99 323 = e46 2.5L edit: maybe not, its a coupe

did not notice car was obd2. good luck

[E36 328is]

His engine is a 2.5l M52.

[Shuasha]

His engine is a 2.5l M52.
TU?

Those are still DVANOS. I know that 99+ 5 series were M52TU.

[SiGmA]

If it's a coupe, it's an e36 with an M52B25. If sedan, e46 and a M52B25TU.

[E36 328is]

It is a 99 323is so it is a M52B25. I would think your only option for a stock ecu tune would be to contact AA.

[SiGmA]

It is a 99 323is so it is a M52B25. I would think your only option for a stock ecu tune would be to contact AA.Pretty much. Or standalone.

[GT35Rm3]

He should buy mine!

[Nj85'325]

OP, to all the guys that say standalones have horrible driveabilty, start issues, and idle issues its a load of bull. Honestly. Its tuning. There is no reason why a standalone should not run and drive like a stock car. I know multiple cars that are on a standalone that start up in the cold after sitting without touching the gas, idles smooth, and is very responsive. You have to know what your looking at or bring it to someone that does it for a living. If I brought my car to a shop to tune it and I had to be WOT to start it or it would hicup or cut out while driving partial throttle Id take it back and say finish it. WOT tuning is easy, partial throttle is where people hurt their motors and where tuners have trouble. IF you want to DIY, tune it your self, and not be stuck with the same calibrations that almost everyone in the BMW FI scene has. Your limited to #65 injectors (that may of changed or may not be out yet). What if you want more power? Band aid it with Meth? No. Add bigger injectors! Which you can do with a standalone. Also I have yet to see a stock computer run boost by speed/rpm, launch control, traction control any thing else a standalone has to offer.

Call or Email Mike at Maximum PSI. The kit is pricey but it is 100% complete and ready for you. He gives you a "base tune" that will let you start the car and at least be able to start calibrating it to your needs.

Simplicity of a chip tune is great. Cofigurabilty of a standalone, better in my eyes.

[ereid74]

It is a 99 323is so it is a M52B25. I would think your only option for a stock ecu tune would be to contact AA.
yesss it does have the m52 but i forget to inform you guys that before a throw a turbo on im jacking up the hood and putting a shoving a S52 underneath :cool Santa was good to me this year!:alright

[Shuasha]

Ahh, that's cake then.. make it really easy and do OBD1.

[ereid74]

wow I should re-read what I type before i post!...and do you mean buy an obd1 s52 or convert it? and what software should I use for obd1 then?

[Hova]

wow I should re-read what I type before i post!...and do you mean buy an obd1 s52 or convert it? and what software should I use for obd1 then?


If your going to be going turbo, i would advise you go keep your M52 block/engine and just toss in a S52 crank. Would result in ~3L and be MUCH more boost friendly.

Why hasnt anyone mentioned megasquirt yet?

[ereid74]

hmm that sounds more feasablie..would i still use my stock ecu?

[ereid74]

bump still curious

[calvino]

I'm waiting for JC to finish 'shark edit', getting the trm kit, and keeping my obd2 41.1 DME. I tried to fish out a final release date from him but he hasn't gotten back to me

[Matt Cramer]

The problem isn't the standalone as much as that when tuning a stock ECU, you can find the factory maps and change just what needs to be changed. With a standalone, the factory maps, even if you have them, are usually in a format the standalone won't be able to use. So you pretty much have to re-teach it how to start up, idle, etc.

[pbonsalb]

Standalones or OBD1 conversions make inspection difficult for OBD2 cars in many states.

[black bnr32]

I'm waiting for JC to finish 'shark edit', getting the trm kit, and keeping my obd2 41.1 DME. I tried to fish out a final release date from him but he hasn't gotten back to me
:confused

[ereid74]

why the smug look?

[stanksbeamen]

I'm waiting for JC to finish 'shark edit', getting the trm kit, and keeping my obd2 41.1 DME. I tried to fish out a final release date from him but he hasn't gotten back to me


:confused

:rofl I was thinking the same thing!!! :lol


why the smug look?

It's a long story, search a little you should be able to find the thread. :)

[black bnr32]

why the smug look?

because I was trying to be nice...sorry dude, you need to do some searching on the history of Shark Edit.

[///3oris]

if i was "rich", i probly still put together my own kits, just with better tools.

If you were "rich" you would probably just pay somebody else to do it ;)

As far as getting back on topic. I've been out of the scene for too long, so I have no idea what's going on these days. But a few years ago, there were a few great offerings for under $10k which gave you serious turn-key power. I just checked Technique Tuning's website and you can get a Stage 2 kit which will easily make 400rwhp for only $7,700+S&H.

If you like to do this for the sport, go for it, but tuning will be tough. It really depends on whether you rely on this car for commuting or if you don't care if the car sits in your garage for 6-months. Just like any other project: once you figure out how long it'll take and how much it'll cost you can pretty much double it and you'll be pretty close.

I would only recommend going custom route if you have specific plans that can't be had off-the-shelf or if you have serious power aspirations. Though honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would want more than 400rwhp. It's a serious amount of power. Go test drive a Z06 Vette and keep in mind that you can't run 345's in the rear :stickoutt

[LukeG]

I don't understand how someone can be content with 400whp :D

[///3oris]

I don't understand how someone can be content with 400whp :D

Because it's plenty for pretty much anything. The E36 M3 is gear limited to about 160mph and I reached that pretty quickly. Probably not as fast as my motorcycle(?), but quickly enough. I guess it depends on what you're doing with the car... maybe I'm just showing my age :shifty.

[ereid74]

sharkedit! i did a search and laughed to myself cus i know what you guys are talking about...july 1st 2008? But this was exactly what i was looking for tuning wise! cus im def going with a custom build! as of now i learned it will probably be better to keep my block..and throw everything M at it..o-ring the head or block..MLS..i just wish sharkedit would debut!!!!

[spoolmyair]

DIY all the way.

[chisau]

///3oris,

You have been gone a while. Since you were TT #1 (I believe), how is your car running assuming you still have it? An update would be interesting.




Because it's plenty for pretty much anything. The E36 M3 is gear limited to about 160mph and I reached that pretty quickly. Probably not as fast as my motorcycle(?), but quickly enough. I guess it depends on what you're doing with the car... maybe I'm just showing my age :shifty.

[///3oris]

///3oris,

You have been gone a while. Since you were TT #1 (I believe), how is your car running assuming you still have it? An update would be interesting.

Yes I still have the car, thought I've thought about selling it since I don't drive it anymore. Every time I think about selling it I quickly change my mind. The car wouldn't fetch much money and it's special to me. Whenever I want to go for a joy ride I usually end up taking my bike with my friends and whenever it's anything utilitarian in nature I use my other cars. In my opinion, although people want serious power, it's more about testosterone and the need to tinker (I'd like to imagine that mine was more of the latter :). Anything over ~400-450rwhp is just too much for a regular streetable car, with turbo's; probably a bit higher with CF blowers since they don't have as much torque. Not sure about twin-screws; I don't think they make much more power than that anyway, but last time I was in Neil's it felt great (making about 350rwhp or so?). This is just my opinion... opinion I would surely ignore a few years ago, so as I said earlier, maybe I'm just showing my age.

I don't recall really having any problems with the car besides anything which may have been documented on these forums. I had a fuel-line leak, but that's not related to the turbo.

I drive Paul's (paul e) car way more often than mine and that got tuned around the same time mine did and that thing is so perfect. It even idles better than my '09 Accord did when it was brand new. I've always been and still am a huge fan of Nick G's tuning. That guy forgot more about tuning, elec./mech. engineering, BMW ECU's and various other crap than most tuners even know. In my opinion there are only two types of tuners: those that have disassembled the ECU and know everything about its internal workings/maps/functions like Conforti, Nick G (and possibly others??) and there are those that tune standalones. Anything in between is just hacking. There are way too many adaption maps in the ECU that compensate for things you didn't even know existed, for a piggy back or anything of the sort to be running right always -- if you don't believe me, look at how much the standalone guys have to tinker.

Anyway, sorry for the diatribe, hope I answered you question :buttrock

[SiGmA]

I don't understand how someone can be content with 400whp :DSame :D

[LukeG]

Because it's plenty for pretty much anything. The E36 M3 is gear limited to about 160mph and I reached that pretty quickly. Probably not as fast as my motorcycle(?), but quickly enough. I guess it depends on what you're doing with the car... maybe I'm just showing my age :shifty.


thats why a 6-speed is going in my car shortly :D



Yes I still have the car, thought I've thought about selling it since I don't drive it anymore. Every time I think about selling it I quickly change my mind. The car wouldn't fetch much money and it's special to me. Whenever I want to go for a joy ride I usually end up taking my bike with my friends and whenever it's anything utilitarian in nature I use my other cars. In my opinion, although people want serious power, it's more about testosterone and the need to tinker (I'd like to imagine that mine was more of the latter :). Anything over ~400-450rwhp is just too much for a regular streetable car, with turbo's; probably a bit higher with CF blowers since they don't have as much torque. Not sure about twin-screws; I don't think they make much more power than that anyway, but last time I was in Neil's it felt great (making about 350rwhp or so?). This is just my opinion... opinion I would surely ignore a few years ago, so as I said earlier, maybe I'm just showing my age.

I don't recall really having any problems with the car besides anything which may have been documented on these forums. I had a fuel-line leak, but that's not related to the turbo.

I drive Paul's (paul e) car way more often than mine and that got tuned around the same time mine did and that thing is so perfect. It even idles better than my '09 Accord did when it was brand new. I've always been and still am a huge fan of Nick G's tuning. That guy forgot more about tuning, elec./mech. engineering, BMW ECU's and various other crap than most tuners even know. In my opinion there are only two types of tuners: those that have disassembled the ECU and know everything about its internal workings/maps/functions like Conforti, Nick G (and possibly others??) and there are those that tune standalones. Anything in between is just hacking. There are way too many adaption maps in the ECU that compensate for things you didn't even know existed, for a piggy back or anything of the sort to be running right always -- if you don't believe me, look at how much the standalone guys have to tinker.

Anyway, sorry for the diatribe, hope I answered you question :buttrock



Well Boris I belive many have the traction problems due to improper alignment/worn suspension components and mostly due to using stock cams. Stock s50/52 cams tend to have a high peak tq which breaks the tires loose and then starts falling on it's face by redline. I love my custom ground elgin cams, yeah my peak tq is 510 and not 560-580, but at least the 510 stays pretty flat to redline. I have PERFECT traction in 3rd and bald summitomo tires, 2nd gear is not bad at all either. For $500 bucks, I scratch my head wondering what these higher hp guys are doing with the stockers. I'm curious how my traction witll improve with all of the suspenion upgrades i'm doing to the car.


And when I finished my build, I broke the engine in, did a few minor adjustments/changes, drove it to the local dyno and put down 500whp. Then drove it to TRM for in-house tuning which achieve the 604whp/510wtq on 93 octane. I then beat the piss out of the car on some of those awesome southern roads (low boost 500whp), visited some buddies at their colleges etc. Put 3k miles on the car that week without a single issue. When proper componets are properly assembled/fabricated the end result can be very rewarding. Taking on a huge build like this for the first time, I learned so much and with how awesome it's been running, it's truely one of the most rewarding things i've yet to do in life.



I agree with you and also feel bad for those are are always fixing something.

[///3oris]

Well Boris I belive many have the traction problems due to improper alignment/worn suspension components and mostly due to using stock cams. Stock s50/52 cams tend to have a high peak tq which breaks the tires loose and then starts falling on it's face by redline. I love my custom ground elgin cams, yeah my peak tq is 510 and not 560-580, but at least the 510 stays pretty flat to redline. I have PERFECT traction in 3rd and bald summitomo tires, 2nd gear is not bad at all either. For $500 bucks, I scratch my head wondering what these higher hp guys are doing with the stockers. I'm curious how my traction witll improve with all of the suspenion upgrades i'm doing to the car.

Since you have a higher torque peak than I do, I'm curious how you have traction. Could it be the difference in spool time? Do you have a dyno sheet so I can see your torque curve?

I'm pretty sure my Ground Control coil-overs aren't worn, but maybe I don't understand your definition. As far as alignment, my car has always been set up for stock alignment, which is probably not as ideal as 0 (though I don't consider my car a drag racing car). Just an FYI, you can just as easily control your torque via tuning and/or boost controller. Either way, interesting comments.


And when I finished my build, I broke the engine in, did a few minor adjustments/changes, drove it to the local dyno and put down 500whp. Then drove it to TRM for in-house tuning which achieve the 604whp/510wtq on 93 octane. I then beat the piss out of the car on some of those awesome southern roads (low boost 500whp), visited some buddies at their colleges etc. Put 3k miles on the car that week without a single issue. When proper componets are properly assembled/fabricated the end result can be very rewarding. Taking on a huge build like this for the first time, I learned so much and with how awesome it's been running, it's truely one of the most rewarding things i've yet to do in life.

Congratulations, sounds like you have a well sorted system. I'm all for DIY, but I think many (most?) underestimate the amount of time, money and dedication it takes. Especially time and money. Congrats once again :redspot

[ereid74]

Hey guys im very excited to start my build im just having funds come my way (college drains me) and Im looking to start buying some essential parts. First thing i would like to purchase is the turbo..im looking for a large housing and a high trim turbo. This is going to be a complete custom setup. I have my stock M52 block and am going to do the m50 intake manifold swap then i might consider swapping cranks to the s52??? o-ring the m-50 intake..i would like to hit the 600 hp at crank mark..what will my stock M52 black handle? its stock bore so the cylinder walls are strong...should i swap pistons for a lower compresion piston??? i was just going to hone cylinder and replace rings becuase i have 168k on the car. any input would be sweet! im pretty excited so help me make some good choices...i am tempted to buy small things first like boost/oil pressure/ temp gauge..intercooler...what not...also probably looking to do a top-mount.

[ereid74]

can anyone guide me? recommend me to a certain model?? any suggestions would be great!