Headers And Midpipe Conundrum. Let's Make This Thread A Good Place For Combo Info!

[ArcaneParadise]

I have done many a search on this forum and it seems that there is very limited information, at best, about mainly Headers. It seems to be that the three heavyweights are Supersprint, Evosport, as well as HIOP. Also, the two heavyweights for a midpipe would be AA Track Pipe, of course, and also the Supersprint Resonator.

Question #1: Can Supersprint Headers match up with the stock midpipe? If so, can they also match up with the AA Track Pipe?

Answered!: No, Supersprint Headers CANNOT match up with the stock midpipe nor the AA Track Pipe.

Question #2: Can the Supersprint Midpipe match up with the stock headers? If so, can they also match up with the Evosport and HIOP Headers?

Answered!: No, the Supersprint Midpipe CANNOT match up with the stock headers nor the Evosport or HIOP headers!

(In short, if your going to do a headers or midpipe switch with Supersprint, you are going to have to purchase both at the same time.)

(I would like to make the conjecture that Supersprint makes their very high claims on their Headers and Midpipe because it is proven that Headers + Midpipe together is greater than the sum of their gains. For example, if Headers gave 5 HP and the Midpipe gave 4 HP. The gain with them TOGETHER would probably be about 12 HP ROUGHLY. This is pure conjecture but I do have a feeling that is why they have such high claims on their Headers and Midpipe.)

These are the possible combos:

1. Supersprint Headers / Supersprint Resonator
2. Evosport Headers / AA Track Pipe
3. HIOP Headers / AA Track Pipe

So. Those are the big choices. Now price:
Evosport Headers: $1,199
Supersprint Headers: $1,100
HIOP Headers: $800
Supersprint Resonator: $379
AA Track Pipe: $754

(Note: Another thing to put into play is that AA is SUPPOSED to be releasing their Headers soon, which cost around the neighborhood of $850 for an OBD-II M3)

Since, from what I have read, Headers and Midpipe have VERY little to do with the sound that comes from ones exhaust. The Cat-Back plays, by far, the largest role in that. Since, sound is no longer an issue, it comes down to the straight facts of which combo will produce the most HP / TQ. There is no other reason why one would buy Headers and Midpipe other than for power gains.

Now, since I have very little to go off of, even though I have done a large search, I am hoping that we can make this a very big thread with a wealth of information about Headers and Midpipe.

So, plz, for the sake of those in the future who wish to add a Header / Midpipe combo, I ask that you post all the information that you know about this. Dyno charts, and proven gains are appreciated very much. If your information is JUST on the AA Track Pipe, ur information is still appreciated, but plz keep in mind that there is far more information about the Track Pipe than there are about headers.

Thank you very much and I hope that this thread will become a good source of information seeking headers and / or a midpipe.

[Mikey52]

Dont forget about a custom track pipe. You could save about 600 bucks over the AA piece and get roughly the same performance. Just a thought. :)

[SG_M3]

Originally posted by ArcaneParadise

Question #1: Can Supersprint Headers match up with the stock midpipe? If so, can they also match up with the AA Track Pipe?

Nope, they won't match the stock mid pipes or the AA TP. To fit the AA you would have to do some custom work.


Originally posted by ArcaneParadise

Question #1: Can the Supersprint Midpipe match up with the stock headers? If so, can they also match up with the Evosport and HIOP Headers?


No, only an AA will match stock headers or shorty designs.

[M3corey]

the superspring combo seems to be very nice and has some good results .. that is what i chose to go with soon .. ss headers .. resonator and exhaust

[stom_m3]

search under eclou. He has tried some of the mid pipe, header combos.

[badmonkey]

Eclou and ArticFox have made good power with the Hiop/AA trackpipe combo, caveat being ArcticFox had his car tuned via the Unichip and Eclou is running Dinan Stage V software. Those who are not getting good results should consider some software changes since the VE changes will most likely need to be compensated for in tuning. My initial dyno of the AA trackpipe gained power above 4k rpm, extending the torque curve. Below 4k it lost power, and that was with a retune. Now with the headers on it *feels* like some of the torque has come back below 4k rpm. Hopefully will get to re-dyno and retune soon. After that the trackpipe is for sale, going to try another route :)

[ArcaneParadise]

Bump. Come on fellas.

[ArcticFox]

Well, sounds like you have it right.

The AA track pipe and stock mid pipe will fit headers that are "stock" dimensions....HIOP and Evosport.

Supersprint headers are longer AFAIK, thus, only bolt to the SS mid pipe wihtout modification. Tim

[ArcaneParadise]

Is there a difference between long and short headers?

[arkie6]

Originally posted by ArcaneParadise
Is there a difference between long and short headers?

Yes. In general, longer tube headers (the primary tubes between the head flange and collector) show higher performance improvements at lower RPMs than shorter tube headers. This is due to the improved cylinder scavenging at lower RPMs with the longer tube headers. Short tube headers on the other hand may post higher peak HP numbers due to the fact that they tend to improve torque at higher RPMs. And HP is just a function of torque and RPM with a constant thrown in (HP=TQ x RPM/5250). The length of the primary tubes affects the tuning or timing of the exhuast gas pulses reaching the collector - long tubes favor slower or lower RPM pulses, short tubes favor faster or higher RPM pulses. And in general, equal length primary tubes perform better than random length tubes.

Another very important factor to consider when choosing headers is the primary tube diameter, which can also influence at what RPM torque gains will be seen, if any at all. The smaller the diameter of the primary tubes, the faster the exhaust gas velocity at any given RPM. Faster exhaust gas velocity means better cylinder scavenging, especially at lower RPMs. However, if you make the tubes too small, you increase flow resistance at high RPMs which can limit peak HP numbers. This same effect occurs on the intake side as well as can be seen by the fact that the smaller OBD II intake manifold improves low end torque while the larger OBD I intake manifold improves high end torque and peak horsepower.

The diameter of the exhaust pipe also affects engine performance just like diameter of the header tubes - smaller pipes improve low end torque, larger pipes improve high end horsepower. I've seen first hand where a larger single exhaust or large dual pipes on a pickup originally equipped with a single exhaust of nominal diameter can really hurt the low end torque.

It would be nice if we could have it all, but unfortunately, you can't. You have to decide if you want good street performance and improved torque at the RPMs where you normally drive, or race car performance where gaining more peak HP is more important than a gain (or maybe even a loss) of torque in the lower RPM range where the engine will spend little if any time.

Ok. With all that being said, does anybody know the tube diameter of the Supersprint vs. HIOP headers vs. stock exhaust manifolds? What about the AA Track Pipe vs. Supersprint resonator vs. stock mid pipe w/cats?

See the following for more discussion on header design: http://www.ssheaders.com/header.htm or just do a google search.

[axcE36M3]

long tube headers typically make better torque while sacrificing a bit of top end over shorty headers. thing of the correlation between a m50 and m52 intake manifold, one has short, fat runners, one has long, skinnier runners.

i ran with ss headers mated up to stock cats (yes, i had to cut the pipes) with great results. i chose ss because being in business for about 50 years, and supplying some of the top tuners and racing teams in europe really says something about a company. they do lots of dyno test on each product before releasing them.

there is someone on this board that had been running the evo sport headers and had actually lost a decent amount of torque and gained little to no horsepower. this is because the evosport headers are too big. they use some massive pipes and created one of the free-est flowing headers on the market, but infortunately, the US spec cars can't take advantage of so much flow in N/A streetable form.

ss headers and midpipe are probably the best combo for a streetable n/a m3.

[uberM5]

what about a turbo m3 what kind of exsaust are you guys running

[Def]

A turbo M3 will have an entirely different exhaust system than a NA M3, which would all have to be custom made(or made by AA). The only thing you could really reuse without modifying would be the catback.

[ArcaneParadise]

Okay. So for a N/A car: If I understand correctly:
1. Get HIOP / AA Track Pipe if you would like to gain horsepower in the higher portion of your RPM band (I would assume around 5-7K RPM range), which would also result in higher Dyno numbers. That always feels good! :o)

2. Get Supersprint / Resonator if you would like to gain horsepower in the lower portion of your RPM band (I would assume around 2-4K RPM range).

3. Evosport / AA Track Pipe does not seem to sound like a good combination because the Evosport header diameter is too wide and too free flowing, which (AXC said) would result in lowered HP and TQ numbers, which is bad.

Keep the info coming! We are on a roll!

[332 RustBucket]

Originally posted by ArcaneParadise
Okay. So for a N/A car: If I understand correctly:
1. Get HIOP / AA Track Pipe if you would like to gain horsepower in the higher portion of your RPM band (I would assume around 5-7K RPM range), which would also result in higher Dyno numbers. That always feels good! :o)

2. Get Supersprint / Resonator if you would like to gain horsepower in the lower portion of your RPM band (I would assume around 2-4K RPM range).

3. Evosport / AA Track Pipe does not seem to sound like a good combination because the Evosport header diameter is too wide and too free flowing, which (AXC said) would result in lowered HP and TQ numbers, which is bad.

Keep the info coming! We are on a roll!

I would say NEGATIVE to all 3 of these. I was working on a page that I was hoping to have done on Sun. but my friend who I haven't seen flew in from Cali and I have been spending all of my free time with him. If you guys can wait a little :) My friend leaves Sat. so I will have much more time to tell you what I found. If I recall correctly, several statements that have been made about headers are incorrect but it has been a while since I looked over the data.

Oh ya, with my combo I am making 264.8 rwhp :buttrock

Can someone please direct me to a page on how to put a page in Bimmerforums?? I don't have the time to learn how to. I am going to put in on my homepage and then link to it from here.

[332 RustBucket]

Oh ya, I tested everything listed except for the SS reasonator :)

[rollie]

I can maybe add something here I hope...I had been patiently waiting for the AA headers and heard just a few weeks ago that they WERE NOT going ahead with them due to conflicts with design w/ Supersprint. (which apparently they could not get over)

Also, there is another make out there which have recently purchased but do not have them on my race car as yet and that is Genie..... an Australian company which has been makiing them for maybe the longest of anyone. These are very similar config to Supersprint.

See my posting re. sets of these available at Maxbimmer for $890 USD.

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21457

[uberM5]

is it posible to run supersprint headers atached to a aa trake pipe with a little custom work because that seems to be the best combo supersrint for the low end and aa for the top end

[ArcaneParadise]

I think that is probably incorrect uberM5. It seems that ANY no-cats midpipe will make more high end HP and take a little away from the bottom. The main issue is the headers so far is honing in on where the main powerband is. If you get longer headers, you are going to be getting more power low to midrange, regardless of which non-cat midpipe you use. If u get shorter headers, you are going to be getting more power higher up, again, regardless of which non-cat midpipe u use. This is all based on the information I have been told so I cannot be fo' sho about it.

[332 RustBucket]

Originally posted by ArcaneParadise
I think that is probably incorrect uberM5. It seems that ANY no-cats midpipe will make more high end HP and take a little away from the bottom. The main issue is the headers so far is honing in on where the main powerband is. If you get longer headers, you are going to be getting more power low to midrange, regardless of which non-cat midpipe you use. If u get shorter headers, you are going to be getting more power higher up, again, regardless of which non-cat midpipe u use. This is all based on the information I have been told so I cannot be fo' sho about it.

Hey, don't know if you posted based on our conversation but if you did, I think that I said something wrong or you misunderstood me.

Longer header = top end Hp low end tq loss
Shorter Header = higher Tq down low, lower Hp on the top

Now I want to say that I can't be positive about all of this till I look over ALL of the data and sheets again.. But this is what I remember

Brad

[Brekyrself]

Check out this website, it has some really useful information.

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeApeRacing/tech/

[Rasta Mon]

I'm convinced that headers are a waste of money on a NA e36. Maybe 5hp gain with a corresponding loss somewhere else in the powerband.

[ArcaneParadise]

No, I am going to have to disagree. Headers are not a waste. There are three parts to the E36 exhaust (I think!). Headers, midpipe, and cat-back. If any one of those is OEM, your already restricted to the smallest portion of the exhaust, which in most cases is the OEM. For example, the saying "You are only as strong as your weakest link" (I think that is how it goes...) applies to this. Your exhaust flow is only as good as your worst functioning part. So if you get 1 out of 3, or 2 out of 3, your money is not as well spent as if you get all three parts to the exhaust, because then, and only then do you have an exhaust with no weak portions. I do agree that if u get cat-back and headers, headers may be a slight waste of money, because your midpipe is still the weakest part. Headers will give somewhat of a gain due to the more effective design. So, to sum it up, most exhaust parts are a waste if you do not improve your entire exhaust line, I am pretty sure... I have seen gains where the person had a cat-back, then they added headers AND mid-pipe and they gradually gained HP to the redline (they got more and more HP as they went up the entire RPM band, with like 1 or 2 HP gain near 2,000RPM and more like a 12RWHP gain higher up). That was from a member of the board so it is proven. It is not just from some company claim. I dunno about you but 12RWHP with no loss anywhere in the band sounds like a pretty darn good deal to me. Not to mention the fact that you lose weight getting the new parts. AA Track Pipe shaves off another 20 pounds.

[Brekyrself]

Any new info about these header designs or dyno's of these headers.

[ArcaneParadise]

Not as of yet. There is a person on the forum that should be posting an "extremely large" write-up on his findings about Supersprint Headers, Evosport Headers, HIOP Headers, and the AA Track Pipe, which I am certainly looking forward too. I THINK it should be by Sunday or Early to Mid next week if I understood him correctly.

[332 RustBucket]

ArcaneParadise - you forgot to add the HIOPs in there ;)

[GreekM3]

are the stock headers really *that* restrictive for us to have to spend 900$ for the gains arcana? I can see replacing mid-section because the cats are restrictive but are the headers? I personally think $$ could def be spent elsewhere for higher gains. (N/A cars only....:))

[332 RustBucket]

GreekM3 - I have done everything else ;)

[GreekM3]

oh ok.....I wasn't sure on what level of mods we were talking about here.....I should of been more clear, for the average m3 with some minor bolt-ons I personally don't think its needed

[ArcaneParadise]

Well... Then what do u recommend I do for more power?

I have:
Dinan Stage 4 Software
Dinan CAI
Dinan Euro HFM
Dinan Throttle Body
ASC Delete
Getting installed next week:
Evosport Pullies
UUC System U
UUC SSK

I find the idea of doing cams a little awry because I do not know what I would need to get. And my budget is somewhat limited at only $1,600 for mods on my car, which I have been saving up. I have seen the gains that a car gets from BOTH headers and a midpipe and they look pretty dang good. (12-15RWHP) Sounds nice to me.

[GreekM3]

Did you see the gains from headers/midpipe on OBD I or II cars? I think you might see greater gains from a new diff for 1600 :)

[kitwetzler]

Headers are going to make very very little power unless you open up the intake manifold first. Go with an Extrude-honed schrick or an OBD1 manifold. Once you've done that, now you can start seeing gains from headers, etc.

[ArcaneParadise]

How much is an OBD-I Manifold? Where can I buy it? And how long would it take a shop to install?

[frayed]

eurospeedperformance.com or eurosport; two different mounting techniques, two different prices.

[uberM5]

Is it true that the effects of headers and midpipes are better on obd-I cars

[GreekM3]

yes, in most cases. I don't know how exact AA's Dyno is but according to their site on OBD II m3's the track pipe only makes about 1/2 the hp......

[Rasta Mon]

The 3.0 exhaust system is more restrictive than the 3.2. The OE 3.2 system is VERY close to optimal. The cat is the only restrictive exhaust component. Getting rid of it is wise (for off-road use only, of course). However, after doing that, significantly increasing the flow of the other exhaust components (especially the headers) beyond stock rate - SLOWS exhaust gas velocity (unless you have FI) and hurts power/trq. Dinan never made e36 headers for this reason. He only sold port-matched OE manifolds . . .
The poor performance of headers on the e36 has been well known and documented for a long while. For years, nobody in their right mind suggested headers as a viable mod. Then Hiop and Evo came out with "new" designs that were said to produce great gains and people (me included) jumped on group buy band-wagons. To date, the VAST majority of the dyno results show net losses (still have not seen a single EVO header dyno, despite year-old promises and claims of 20+hp gains). Headers are the very last place to look for power with these motors, unless you have FI or a full-race set-up.

[m3j0n]

hey arcane.... i was thinking about gettign the obdImanifold from alex at eurospeed... im sure that ifwe get a fewmore people, we can make a group buy and get a significant discount... let me know ifyoure interested,,,

-Jon

[ArcaneParadise]

I am trying to figure out if the product offered from him is the only thing that I need to install the manifold. Also, I need to know about how many house it will take to install so I can figure out how much it will cost to have a professional do it. If I can find that out I will be interested.

[vjlax18]

Originally posted by kitwetzler
Headers are going to make very very little power unless you open up the intake manifold first. Go with an Extrude-honed schrick or an OBD1 manifold. Once you've done that, now you can start seeing gains from headers, etc.

IIRC the headers will show the torque loss with the Manifold and without Cams.

[Brekyrself]

Originally posted by Rasta Mon
The 3.0 exhaust system is more restrictive than the 3.2. The OE 3.2 system is VERY close to optimal. The cat is the only restrictive exhaust component. Getting rid of it is wise (for off-road use only, of course). However, after doing that, significantly increasing the flow of the other exhaust components (especially the headers) beyond stock rate - SLOWS exhaust gas velocity (unless you have FI) and hurts power/trq. Dinan never made e36 headers for this reason. He only sold port-matched OE manifolds . . .
The poor performance of headers on the e36 has been well known and documented for a long while. For years, nobody in their right mind suggested headers as a viable mod. Then Hiop and Evo came out with "new" designs that were said to produce great gains and people (me included) jumped on group buy band-wagons. To date, the VAST majority of the dyno results show net losses (still have not seen a single EVO header dyno, despite year-old promises and claims of 20+hp gains). Headers are the very last place to look for power with these motors, unless you have FI or a full-race set-up.

Very good info here, does anyone actually have the dinan manifolds? Also does dinan port match the 3.0 manifolds or the 3.2 manifolds?

Why not inlcude the eurospec headers from either the 3.0 or 3.2?

[Brekyrself]

How is that extensive exhaust write-up coming along?

[Brekyrself]

Has anyone actually tried the Eurospec or dinan manifolds?

[332 RustBucket]

Originally posted by Brekyrself
How is that extensive exhaust write-up coming along?

Hey, that is me :) I have been REALLY busy and am about 1/3 of the way done with it. I lost 2 computers, moved my sister into NYC, went out of town for several days, and just plain haven't been able to sit down and really do a nice job. Sorry, I don't just want to slap something together cause I am using the info myself to do more with my car so not only might it be benificial to you but to me too.

Sorry for the LONG delay:(

[LexdiamonNYC]

ok, why did this one die off.............i'm still not completely educated on my exhaust system...

anyone have any experience with some of the european tuners?
genie? scorpion? g-power?.....

also is the euro header a significant upgrade from the US header?
probably would have to use a euro mid-section too.....

and if the euro headers fit, then we should be able to bolt on aftermarket headers meant for euro engines. right?

[MCubed]

I have a set of ported, polished, and thermal coated 95 exhaust manifolds purchased from Korman about 18 months ago. I use these with an AA track pipe and a UUC exhaust. While I have never had this combination dyno'ed, I can say that it works well. The track pipe was the last piece to go in and the results were very synergistic. The cost from Korman was very reasonable, but the exact figure is buried in my files somewhere. Cheaper than a header by quite a margin.

[GGray]

I have a set of Euro headers sitting on the floor of my shop, swain coated, ready to go on my 3.2 motor, also sitting on the floor... They are significantly better than the stock US header. And a custom Exhaust.

One thing that has not been looked at by ANY US, or Euro, based tuner is the mid pipe design. A VERY old hot rod trick that produces repetable power gains that I have not seen used is the cross pipe you see on the E30 M3, in the header design, or the cross pipe for V8's. They use either an H pipe or a tru X pipe to help the exhaust flow better on V8 cars, two header sets like ours. With a cat the H or X pipe is not really needed becasue the cat acts like the H or X pipe. Without a cat you ned to have a small H or X pipe installed before the resonators. I am going to build two, or three, mid pipes for my car one with a cat, and one with a X pipe. Once I get the 3.2 motor in the car and broken in I am going to dyno the car with each mid pipe to see what happens.

My 3.2 motor is not stock but the dyno should show which combination works and which one does not based on the raw numbers.

GGray