What is holding BMW back??? RE: BMW and AWD systems

[Bimmer325]

Notice that every other car company is making a sweet car with four wheel drive...does anyone read sport compact car? i know its alot of japenese stuff but the newest compares the evo against 3 other german cars, including the e46 m3.....

seriously why not make a car like the m3 available with four wheel drive?

the article said it was the downfall, i say screw that m3 still kicks butt, i just thougth 4wheel drive would be cool in a fast powerful bmw...

[GreekDriver]

BMW needs to put more power to the wheels... Reviewers agree it doesn't need AWD to handle well.

The 333hp M3 isn't cutting anymore, next gen should be 420+ if BMW wants to keep the M3 on top, it doesn't seem like they do though... :(

But yeah, AWD just isn't really necessary for the M3.

[gato]

4 wheel drive= slower

[Bimmer325]

really?
how i would think it be faster....
i dont know tho

[punknamedjimmy]

there is more powerloss


you have to put power to 4 wheels instead of just 2.

[BlackMagic318Ti]

Originally posted by GreekDriver
BMW needs to put more power to the wheels... Reviewers agree it doesn't need AWD to handle well.

But yeah, AWD just isn't really necessary for the M3.


I agree, in euro tuner september edition, the M3 BMW (I think it was an M3) was the only car that could go 10 mph faster than all the other cars around the corners. And that shows they got good traction but as posted, they could use a little wee bit more ponies. :ausw_6



Originally posted by punknamedjimmy
there is more powerloss


you have to put power to 4 wheels instead of just 2.

Factory turboed :biglaughb :biglaughb

[Yosumi]

If youve noticed, BMW never really goes with the trends. When everyone was yelling FWD in the 90s bmw stuck to rwd just like they will now. And more power to 'em for it.

[inkspot]

I agree Yosumi...

[hakjai]

omg u have a type r toilet

[Mpowered02]

BMW has built a name around performance oriented RWD cars. That is their bread and butter. Venturing into an AWD sportscar would be a stretch for BMW. This is further evidenced by the fact that the AWD cars like the older 325iX, whil being AWD, still drove like a RWD car because of the power split. It was something like 33/67 with the bias towards the rear. Gives the benefit of awd traction in inclement weather with the driving feel of a RWD car. Pure Genious IMHO. And I can attest to the prowess of BMW's AWD system. There were times last winter when I was the only car on the road plowing through the snow while the Governor of MD declared a state of Emergency due to the amount of snow. We criuised around and had a ton of fun driving in the snow and drifting through turns without getting stuck. There were even some inferior SUV's that we passed because they were stuck.
Another thing is that if BMW made an AWD M3 they'd have serious problems when it came to racing because of the required penalties for the AWD "advantage". Case in point...Audi. Audi, for a few years, was making quite a name for itself in the race world by beating some of the best offered by BMW and Porsche. They achieved this by getting the holeshot every time from the added traction at the start. They were always able to get to the 1st turn 1st and hold onto that position for the win. That was until it was decided that the AWD was an unfair advantage for the Audis and the Audis were given a weight penalty to help counteract the AWD advantage. I don't think Audi has won any races since...

[Hellrot_VA]

Don't forget the cost.

BMWs are not exactly being given away now. To design and sell an AWD that can meet BMW quality and hold up to the power is not going to be cheap!

[ken_vs_ryu]

i would love a bmw m3xi wagon. but then again the majority people who would buy this would rather have an x5 or the x3.

[Elusive303]

anybody watch speedvision when they have the bmws racing against porche, audis and whole bunch of other cars? At the line the audi a6s would always get the holeshot and be ahead by about 10 car lengths(not joking). I've watch the last two races and both times where like that, even the announcers were like keep an eye on the audis at the start because they have superior traction from the awd for a standing start. But after about 2-3 laps the porches and bmws would catch up and past. Guess the awd turns out to be a disadvantage in the end.:biglaughb

[Kevin321]

it is ,and the m3 is still at the top

[MrBlah]

the last one I watched the audi in the 3rd row swiped a vet all across it's side, basically shoved him right out of the way.

It was pretty amazing, that car shot off and passed the 2 rows ahead of it instantly, then it got passed instantly and ended up pretty far back by the end of the race.

[Bimmer325]

i see what u are saying....
i think rwd is good, and they should stick with it.
good job bmw.
now how about a turbo.....

[LinearX]

Turbo? No.. Valvetronic Big Six.

[EMAXX]

Its that idiot Bangle. Screw with BMW ever since he worked there. I think he works for MB or something. :lol2:

[NickM3]

Loose weight, thats what the cars need to do. By lightening the car you help acceleration, braking and handling. I think that just adding more and more horsepower is just a temporary solution. I mean think of how many electronics will be needed to keep SL65 owners from killing themselves? Horsepower + untrained driver = wreck.

[yotone]

the main guy from the M dept says M cars will never have awd because it would lose its ability to tossable. porsches fastest and best handling car is rwd, so are ferarri's.

[1984 JPS]

I may be wrong but isnt the 6 series 4wd?? :dunno

[RacermeX]

I've driven 4wd vehicles, and frankly as far as performance goes, I'm not impressed.
I don't think I'd purchase a 4wd BMW, at least not with today's technology.

[punknamedjimmy]

is the x5 4wd?

[Alex.M]

I agree with one of previous posts. Modern cars have more than enough HP. Now, put them all on Atkins. Nock down 500 lbs off the current M3 and you have a super quick and fun car. No need to stuff a V8 in there to make it faster.

[Kevlar]

AWD isn't what it used to be. In the past AWD used to mean vicious couplings and mechanical clutches to transfer power to/from each side of the car.

Now... with electronics, car companies in an effort to reduce weight have almost eliminated the need for the mechanical stuff. What they do is use an electronic version of AWD. Instead of using limited slip differentials and so forth, they use open differentials.

Yes... as we all know, with open differentials, all the power goes to the wheel with the least amount of traction. So, if one wheel is in the air or on ICE... you're stuck!

But... you say "Kevin, how do they get the AWD principle to work then?"

Well... through a complicated set of electronic gizmos and sensors, the car detects wheel spin and the fact that it's going to the wheel with the least traction. So what does the car do? I applies the brake to the spinning wheel. Now... All of a sudden the the wheel with no traction (in theory) thinks it has full traction and power gets shifted somewhere else. The car continues to play this gave of hide-n-seek with the differentials and the ABS trying to find a wheel with traction.

With ABSs working... the car is using the brakes to stop spinning tires (and burning up your brake pads). The cars computer is also saying... wait a second, if wheels are spinning and I'm having to work so hard to stop them... why don't I just drop the engine power (here is the major problem). That's right, to help regain traction in the event that the car detections wheel spin from too many wheels or excessive wheels spin from all tires, it will reduce engine power to help regain traction... this slows you down.

But then you ask... can't I turn it off? Yes and no. You can turn off the basic traction control features... but the nature of the traction control used to make the car AWD cannot be disconnected. So you're stuck with this electronic monkey on your back.

Few cars still use mechanical AWD systems, most are changing over to electronic AWD systems and reduce the mechanical parts used.

EDIT: A while back, I wanted to acquire a AWD BMW to try and turbo it, but found out that my attempts would be futile to the electronic monkey constantly reducing power trying to maintain grip without spitting the differentials out of the back of the car in a pile of flaming parts.

[LinearX]

Problem is, from a safety and refabrication standpoint, they're unlikely to back down from their current position on acceptable weight.

[bokes]

i think kev just about summed it up...

i drove a bmw xi once and although i liked how it drove, it seemed to lose power every once in a while. now i realize why thanks to kev :)

power to the rwd

[hakjai]

awd is awesome but i think part of the fun in driving a bmw is the rwd

[sirtiger]

I agree that real sports car don't need RWD.... but I am curious...what is the deal with the XIs?

[nsk223]

The m3 doesn't need more power, it needs to lose a few hundred pounds. About the AWD, AWD is not necesarily better and it definatly isn't as much fun as RWD. While AWD is easier to drive faster, in the hands a good driver it won't have an advantage unless you driving in snow or something. I respect BMW's choice of RWD for most of their cars. Ferrari's have always been and always will be RWD, most porsches are as well.

[nsk223]

About the turbo.....BMW should go this route. They will lose the respect of many customers who feel that forced induction is 'cheating.' Personal opinions aside, turbo cars are less responsive to throttle inputs and all demonstrate some form of turbo lag.

[WishIHadAn///M]

AWD just isnt as fun... Have you ever tried dropping the clutch in an AWD car???? You need a ton of power or you screw up the tranny. Its much harder in an autocross and it tends to stray from the RWD roots that BMW has worked hard to maintain.

[Fester]

Originally posted by yotone
the main guy from the M dept says M cars will never have awd because it would lose its ability to tossable. porsches fastest and best handling car is rwd, so are ferarri's.

Yes, but then the Porsche Turbo is AWD, as is the C4. Also, the Lambo Murcielago is AWD as is the Nissan Skyline.

I personally would like to see an AWD coupe, be it an M, or 325, 330, etc.

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by Fester
Yes, but then the Porsche Turbo is AWD, as is the C4. Also, the Lambo Murcielago is AWD as is the Nissan Skyline.

I personally would like to see an AWD coupe, be it an M, or 325, 330, etc.

The Porsche GT2 and GT3 are RWD, as is every Ferrari. And I believe Lamborghini even opted to make a RWD version of the previous Diablo for the sports car enthusiast.

[GreekDriver]

E30 M3: 2733lbs/195hp 14.02 lbs./hp 0-60: 7.1s
E36 M3: 3174lbs/240hp 13.23 lbs./hp 0-60: 5.5s
E46 M3: 3415lbs/333hp 10.26 lbs./hp 0-60: 4.8s

Does weight matter if you have the power to make up for it? The E46 M3 still handles REALLY well.

[Def]

Yes weight does matter, especially on alot of tight corners. E46 M3's slowly pull me down the back straight of Road Atlanta, but the tight section of the course, T1-T5, I could easily make up the ground and more, even with less grippy tires. 300lbs is alot when you're continually tossing the car into tight corners.

On a smaller track, Talladega Gran Prix Raceway, I completely owned E46 M3's there. They just didn't have enough room to use their HP advantage, and the lighter weight really made the difference. My car is mostly stock BTW.

[GreekDriver]

Yeah, you're right. BMW needs to really lighten the cars up. It would be nice if they could keep the horspepower up though. :D

The next M3 being a V-8 and all must not be good...

[Fester]

Originally posted by Kevlar
The Porsche GT2 and GT3 are RWD, as is every Ferrari. And I believe Lamborghini even opted to make a RWD version of the previous Diablo for the sports car enthusiast.

Right, which is kinda puzzling when you think about it. Did Porsche make the "base" Turbo AWD to keep the average (but filthy rich) driver out of trouble, or because there is a performance advantage?

I would have thought that they should make AWD an option if you want it. If you don't then you're looking at a GT2 - which is over 60K more! (of course you get other goodies...)

The GT3 makes sense - it makes no bones about the fact that it has a hard on for the track, and that it's a car for the enthusiast. A true sports car should be RWD from a traditional perspective, just like a lot of people say that the only kind of true transmission is one with a clutch and shifter - not SMG.

Although AWD does have some disadvantages, such as increased weight and power loss, there are some major road holding advantages. It's one of the reasons the Audi A4 always does so well in the Touring Car racing class.

I for one like the concept of AWD because living in the North East, AWD means all weather, all season capability. And in a car that weights under 3000 lbs, has over 400+ hp, who cares if the Turbo has the disadvantges of AWD?

[ClintonM3]

AWD = heavier, higher center of gravity, understeer.

BTW having AWD doesn't mean that it is more advanced.

[cenotaph]

Originally posted by Fester
I for one like the concept of AWD because living in the North East, AWD means all weather, all season capability. And in a car that weights under 3000 lbs, has over 400+ hp, who cares if the Turbo has the disadvantges of AWD?

While I'm not completely against AWD, I've spent the last 3 MA winters w/my 330Ci and a set of Dunlop WinterSport M2s. I don't wish for AWD.

As for turbos, I really hope BMW doesn't go there.

[nsk223]

Some of you guys have said that AWD cars have increase 'road-holding' ability. Wrong. Tires grip the road, not drive systems.

[Fester]

Originally posted by Mpowered02
BMW has built a name around performance oriented RWD cars. That is their bread and butter. Venturing into an AWD sportscar would be a stretch for BMW. This is further evidenced by the fact that the AWD cars like the older 325iX, whil being AWD, still drove like a RWD car because of the power split. It was something like 33/67 with the bias towards the rear. Gives the benefit of awd traction in inclement weather with the driving feel of a RWD car. Pure Genious IMHO. And I can attest to the prowess of BMW's AWD system. There were times last winter when I was the only car on the road plowing through the snow while the Governor of MD declared a state of Emergency due to the amount of snow. We criuised around and had a ton of fun driving in the snow and drifting through turns without getting stuck. There were even some inferior SUV's that we passed because they were stuck.
Another thing is that if BMW made an AWD M3 they'd have serious problems when it came to racing because of the required penalties for the AWD "advantage". Case in point...Audi. Audi, for a few years, was making quite a name for itself in the race world by beating some of the best offered by BMW and Porsche. They achieved this by getting the holeshot every time from the added traction at the start. They were always able to get to the 1st turn 1st and hold onto that position for the win. That was until it was decided that the AWD was an unfair advantage for the Audis and the Audis were given a weight penalty to help counteract the AWD advantage. I don't think Audi has won any races since...

What this guy says.

[Def]

Originally posted by nsk223
Some of you guys have said that AWD cars have increase 'road-holding' ability. Wrong. Tires grip the road, not drive systems.

What they are talking about is that you can do "cool" things with AWD cars. For instance, you can trail brake like crazy into a corner, stomp on the gas and let the massive forward grip propel you forward through the corner.

Sometimes it's faster than a well balanced RWD car going through the same corner...

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by Def
What they are talking about is that you can do "cool" things with AWD cars. For instance, you can trail brake like crazy into a corner, stomp on the gas and let the massive forward grip propel you forward through the corner.

Sometimes it's faster than a well balanced RWD car going through the same corner...

Not in a BMW AWD car ... or even most cars with new electronic AWD systems now a days. Cause remember, when the computer detects wheel slip or spin, it's going to activate the ABS on the wheels that are spinning so a) they stop spinning and b) power gets sent to a different set of wheels. When the system is triggered it's also going to reduce engine power... it may feel faster... but with the computer reducing engine power, I doubt it is.

The situation you are describing would only happen with an AWD system built off a vicious coupling or limited slip AWD system.

[Fester]

Originally posted by cenotaph
While I'm not completely against AWD, I've spent the last 3 MA winters w/my 330Ci and a set of Dunlop WinterSport M2s. I don't wish for AWD.


As have I. But I'll be the first to agree that AWD is better yet for driving on snow and ice. An AWD car with snows - no comparison.