My first car

[youngbimmer]

Hi guys. I am torn between two cars to choose for my first. There is a 1998 M3 convertible with a 134K miles going for 9000 (very clean looking), and then there is a 1987 635L6 with 150K (in the process of being restored) going for 4000. I love the look of the L6, but Also like the age of the M3. I am a novice driver (had my learner's permit for 4 months now), and still learning to drive (even though i drive pretty well now). I want something sporty (i prefer coupe myself) and something that will get around 17 in the city and 25 on the highway. what do you guys think i should pick? Both are autos by the way.

[SilverBeam]

Either. The M3 has too much power and the 6 is too unreliable and doesn't have modern safety equipment.

I'm a teen driving instructor, I see a lot of kids in a lot of different cars. If you have < 10,000 to spend on your first car than I highly recommend you look at the newest Corolla or Camry you can afford. Make sure it has four wheel disk brakes and as many airbags as possible. I'm unaware of how traction control works on those cars, but I think anything you look at for around 10K would have ABS on it.

Or spend a little bit more and get a new Ford Focus with mykey. Ford has done more to help save teen drivers than any other company out there.

[newton22]

M3 does not have too much power. But, there are better deals out there. You can get a nice facelifted E46 325i for around $10k.

[325bob]

Guess which of my cars has standard ABS, the 05 Corolla, or the ancient 87 325? incredible!

[holmzy17]

I was 17 when I got my M3/2/5 in April of 2008 and have yet to be involved in an accident or acquire a speeding ticket...just don't be stupid and drive carefully :)

[Soon2bM3]

Either. The M3 has too much power and the 6 is too unreliable and doesn't have modern safety equipment...

...look at the newest Corolla or Camry you can afford.

Or spend a little bit more and get a new Ford Focus with mykey. Ford has done more to help save teen drivers than any other company out there.
+1 for above quote

I made the same mistake you're about to make for my first car. I bought a fancy, used, high-mileage, RWD car that looked the prettiest to me at the time. It was a financial nightmare. Broken/worn parts, crappy paint job, poor winter driving, high insurance, etc... I have regretted that purchase ever since.

I can understand wanting something sporty for your 1st car, since that was exactly what I was looking for when I was your age. In hindsight, though, I wish I would have just bought a Dodge Omni, Honda Civic, Corolla, or similar reliable crap-box. I would have been able to beat the living hell out of it, get plenty of replacement parts from the junkyard for cheap, and probably would have ended up with a lot more dough in my pocket when all was said and done. M3's are great cars to drive, but not cheap to own and maintain. Even worse for the 635.

However, if you absolutely must have a sporty car for your 1st ride, I would strongly recommend (no grief for this, please!) an older Mazda Miata (MX5) for the following reasons:

1. Excellent handling RWD coupe for cheap money
2. Lots of parts and aftermarket availability
3. Focus is chassis, not power = make you a better driver overall
4. Easy and cheap to work on
5. Cops will ignore you
6. With $10k, you could put all aftermarket suspension and turbo kit on an MX5 and have money left over for gas and speeding tickets.

FYI... Spec Miata's eat Vette's for breakfast on short gymkana type courses. Ask me how I know.

Just my $0.02.

Note: If you're family is well-off and you have access to an unlimited $$$ supply, please ignore everything I've said. Buy your M3, get speeding tickets, wreck it, and then move on to a Porsche or something ;-)

[HaloEye]

dont get a corolla or ford, those cars are lame, no offense if anyone here has one, but i just dont like either one. you should get the M3. it is newer and would be more reliable, just get it checked up before you buy it so you know what you are getting into. some sellers may leave a problem or 2 out to get a quicker sale. just drive careful and dont try to impress people with your car. be safe

[SilverBeam]

M3 does not have too much power. But, there are better deals out there. You can get a nice facelifted E46 325i for around $10k.

It is too much power. I've taught hundreds of kids how to drive too.


Guess which of my cars has standard ABS, the 05 Corolla, or the ancient 87 325? incredible!

Standard on a 2005 Camry along with airbags, something a 20 year old six series doesn't have.


dont get a corolla or ford, those cars are lame, no offense if anyone here has one, but i just dont like either one. you should get the M3. it is newer and would be more reliable, just get it checked up before you buy it so you know what you are getting into. some sellers may leave a problem or 2 out to get a quicker sale. just drive careful and dont try to impress people with your car. be safe

There are far more important things than what is cool when you are a new driver. Safety is number one. And no teen has any idea what they are getting into. The teenage brain hasn't developed the ability to properly assess risk. There is no preparation a teen can do to get ready for a sports car other than to wait until they have matured more. Further education can help, but it can't completely overcome a lack of experience and cognitive development.

[Kodiak450]

You will be alot safer in a BMW vs a recycled soda can (anything TOYota) death trap. Plus you'll have the ability to accelerate safely and quickly out on a highway, unlike a TOYota.

[cmoody]

It is too much power. I've taught hundreds of kids how to drive too.

Standard on a 2005 Camry along with airbags, something a 20 year old six series doesn't have.

There are far more important things than what is cool when you are a new driver. Safety is number one. And no teen has any idea what they are getting into. The teenage brain hasn't developed the ability to properly assess risk. There is no preparation a teen can do to get ready for a sports car other than to wait until they have matured more. Further education can help, but it can't completely overcome a lack of experience and cognitive development.

+1.

I'm a teen (15 to be exact, permit for 2.5 months) and when I was doing a driver's skills course in my dad's 2001 330i (no zhp) and I was going stupid fast compared to everyone else. However, my instructor was a instructor for the SCCA and Porsche club. Had it not been for him, I'd've had no idea what to do.

If you're dying for a BMW, everything after the '89 model year has airbags.

To me, it's safety first, gas milage, snow performance, performance, THEN "coolness". In most cases, if you have a car, you're cool.

If you want to gain more experience at driving, see if you can participate in a Tire Rack Street Survival Class.

[cline328]

Put aside what you want. Think about what would be smart. Then think about what is going to make you happy to drive, then go buy the bmw m3. I have an e46 that I just got for my first car and it has a lot of power, more than I need, but its fun. Just be smart and figure it out as you go. Any issue will be worth it if your happy about what your driving.

[cmoody]

Put aside what you want. Think about what would be smart. Then think about what is going to make you happy to drive, then go buy the bmw m3. I have an e46 that I just got for my first car and it has a lot of power, more than I need, but its fun. Just be smart and figure it out as you go. Any issue will be worth it if your happy about what your driving.

Staying alive is always smart. A 91 318is would make me happy.

[BMWM]

Go for an E36 328iS
Less expensive and still a good amount of power

[amd4me]

It is too much power. I've taught hundreds of kids how to drive too.
.
What are you using to gauge how much power is acceptable for a new driver? I had a Boxster S when I was 16. Never got in a wreck and never got so much as a speeding ticket. If a kid wants to be an idiot in their car it doesnt matter what make or model it is. If they want to drive like an ass they are going to die either way. You hit a tree going 90+ in ANYTHING and it is pretty much game over.

[ilikepretzels2]

you get a 9000 dollar first car? first cars are supposed to be... well first cars. although I have a '79 320i. Which was only 1900 bucks. You want an automatic? I mean in my opinion thats a waste of the ultimate driving machine. get a stick theyre quicker, better gas mileage, better control of the car, and you feel the car a lot more. But hey what do I know about freshmen.

[youngbimmer]

Well if i were to get the M3, it my mom would be sharing it with me most the time (its mostly gonna be her car). I already drive with my dad in his '99 camry. reliable yes, safety? Thank god i don't have to comment on that and hope i never have too. I have heard some horror stories of corollas and celicas crumpling up like crushed soda cans too. the thing i don't like about my camry is that is 4 cylinder, and it has miserable performance. Stop light to go, it goes to like 4 or 5k rpms and its EXTREMELY sluggish. Not to mention its paint is all chipped and looks like crap (its white too!). My other option is a '99 dodge grand caravan with no AC and non working windows, and i don't think it would be much of a chick magnet XD. I chose a BMW because they look awesome, very safe from what i hear, are very reliable (unlike the several american cars my parents have owned in the past).

Is there any e24 bmw with airbags? Even though they don't have airbags, i heard they are very sturdy vehicles. Reliability wise, what things typically go wrong? I know i have to be on top of oil changes/timing belts/tire changes, but is there any thing else i should be worried about? (transmission, engine, AC compresser, etc).

[cmoody]

E24s never had airbags.

BMWs crumple like tin cans also, especially when run into trees. The reliability of the M30s are questionable, and not time efficient if you're a beginner to mechanics.

Have you even driven an M3?

[youngbimmer]

hehe aged 16 i don't think i ever have. But i have driven a 6 cylinder car (3.3L) can airbags be added to e24s?

[SilverBeam]

What are you using to gauge how much power is acceptable for a new driver? I had a Boxster S when I was 16. Never got in a wreck and never got so much as a speeding ticket. If a kid wants to be an idiot in their car it doesnt matter what make or model it is. If they want to drive like an ass they are going to die either way. You hit a tree going 90+ in ANYTHING and it is pretty much game over.

On a teen driving course. I've been an instructor for four years. Kudos to you for not getting any tickets or crashes but you aren't everyone. I've seen a lot of kids in a lot of different cars. We've had kids who wanted to put the pedal to the metal in everything from Priuses to E46 M3s. The difference is, the kid in the Prius only gets the car up to half the speed of the kid in the M3 in the same distance. And speed is one of the primary killers of new drivers. You get to a deadlier speed a lot faster in a fast car, increasing the chances of crashes. The most dangerous cars for new drivers are sports cars and SUVs, statistics prove it. Sedans are the safest.

It's not worth trying to add airbags to an E24. What about a nice E34? THat would be a great first car if you want to stick with bimmers? a 535 E34 or a 535/538 E38 would be safe, reliable, in your price range, and not as powerful as an M3.

[ilikepretzels2]

ok. I have no power steering. no airbags. no ABS. no power assisted brakes. so really installing an airbag would 1. be a waste of time 2. waste of money 3. Do you have a seatbelt? seatbelts do all the saving of people haha.

[youngbimmer]

can't find an e34 near me, that was the original consideration. then i came across a very nice 635 L6 and just stared at it for a whole 5 minutes XD

Between the M3 and the 635, which is the larger police magnet? (parents are scared that 635 is too much of a police mag)

[cmoody]

ok. I have no power steering. no airbags. no ABS. no power assisted brakes. so really installing an airbag would 1. be a waste of time 2. waste of money 3. Do you have a seatbelt? seatbelts do all the saving of people haha.

Seatbelts do only ~60% of the saving of the driver. In a major accident, the car will crumple up (any make or model) and put the steering column through your face. If you have an air bag, the steering column doesn't go through your face. you bounce off and are (hopefully) only scratched.

youngbimmer, A 330i has 25 less horsepower than the M3, and is substantially heavier. Any first time driver would be overwhelmed while dorking around with that car. I know I was. Listen, if you are dying for a BMW, a 90-94 318i is also a good starter car.

The M3. But both will catch the eye of the cops.

[youngbimmer]

Ok so M3 is out of the question. 635 L6 vs the camry?

I just went looking on ebay, and found a steering wheel with an airbag that fits the 635csi
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-Steering-Wheel-Air-Bag-E24-635-635csi-1987-1989_W0QQitemZ350240349471QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ200 90815?IMSfp=TL090815141005r37544

[xatlas0]

can't find an e34 near me, that was the original consideration. then i came across a very nice 635 L6 and just stared at it for a whole 5 minutes XD

Between the M3 and the 635, which is the larger police magnet? (parents are scared that 635 is too much of a police mag)

Driving like a fool is the main police magnet.

The E24 is older, and much slower. Gas mileage is in the high teens. The M3 is much faster, smaller, and is made to a much lower standard.

Like Silver said, an E34 or E39 is right up your alley, although who is going to be paying for insurance and repairs?

[cmoody]

Do you have any mechanical experience before now?

[youngbimmer]

define mechanical experience?

[SilverBeam]

An airbag system is much more than just an airbag. There are decelerators within the car that detect the crash then transmit the data to an explosive device that deploys the bag. It isn't something that can be easily retrofitted.

Expand your search or be patient. Can't you drive the camry until you find a good car.

[cmoody]

The M30s (engine in the 635) were not known for being reliable. What was the most complicated thing that you've ever done to a car?

[BradR127]

Are there any considerations for expenses *after* the purchase? With any of these older cars, you are going to have significant maintenance and repair expenses. BMWs are certainly not cheap to maintain and repair. If you can do some stuff yourself, that helps, but it still ain't cheap. I'm sure most people here can vouch for that.

[youngbimmer]

oh yeah im patient im just getting a feel for things thats all. the people selling both cars service and sell stricly benz and bmw. Not to mention family friends own a benz and bmw service shop. Installing the whole system should cost around 1K? Most ive done with a car was wash, change oil, degrease engine, check and play with all fluieds.

[cmoody]

Have you thought about a 318?

[youngbimmer]

don't quite like their styling. really was focusing on a 95 525i, but got sold before i could really dig into its history. My favorite bimmer styling is e24/e34/e12 type styling.

[cmoody]

E36 styling is similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_E36

[youngbimmer]

not in the least bit way. the headlights are differrent and is curved out, rather than straight with big single headlights.

[m60power]

What's all this about m30s being so unreliable?? The m30 is one of BMW's most bulletproof motors they've built. Those things run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Sure, you have to adjust the valves every so many miles but they are damn easy to work on and parts are relatively cheap for an m30 compared to other BM motors. That said, stick with a Camry...

Edit: they did make some e24s with airbags BTW. I think it was the 88 and 89 model years

[97 Ex/SiR]

i managed to total a $1600 E30 when i was young. also got numerous speeding tickets and a suspended license twice before the ripe age of 18... some kids have more smarts and self control than others..

having just turned 25 i am proud to say its been over 4 years since my last ticket. i plan to keep it that way. you dont need alot of power to get into trouble. i dont know how the snowy season is where you live, or if you even have one. but i'd suggest a fwd car to start out with.

[GuitarKid93]

My first car was a 93 325i, the week I turned 18 I bought a 2002 M3, not all kids are unsafe drivers. I would trust a kid in a m3 over some of the kids flying around in turbo civics or mustang gt's

[youngbimmer]

yah we usually dont get snow hear PERIOD. we had one freak winter season and was some snow, but nod greater than 4 inches (the concern i know is RWD can fishtail in snow). About the M30 engine, i thought they were supposed to last like up to 500K if maintained properly. And im using the camry now i until i gain more exp (like leveling up in a game). but im not going to prom in a chipped up off-white camry or grand caravan :P

to let you in on my driving:
I go the speed limit (and sometimes 5 over in places where the road can handle) and am VERY conservative on how i drive (no i don't tailgate, like to keep a car's distance between). The only time i like to "turbo charge" is when im at a stop light, nobody is on the road but me (like to turbocharge to reach speed limit from stop to speed limit, not beyond that :P)

[SilverBeam]

not in the least bit way. the headlights are differrent and is curved out, rather than straight with big single headlights.

You are thinking E30 vs. E36, they made the 318 in both models.

[Impulsed7]

young, what part of virginia are you in? we do a ton of local meets in the Hampton roads/Virginia beach area. many of us attend a few driving schools per year, and always look for new members to the group.

If you are local, come out, check out the cars, and decide from there. but as always my #1 suggestion for a new driver is a 318 or 325. Only let them modify suspension, brakes and wheels/tires. make it into a handling car. If its still around in a few years, swap in an M3 motor because by then you will be ready for it.

[youngbimmer]

im in central va, so its quite a drive to hampton/va beach

[DrewDude320i]

I was 17 when I got my M3/2/5 in April of 2008 and have yet to be involved in an accident or acquire a speeding ticket...just don't be stupid and drive carefully :)

1 year of driving without an accident is not impressive.


You will be alot safer in a BMW vs a recycled soda can (anything TOYota) death trap. Plus you'll have the ability to accelerate safely and quickly out on a highway, unlike a TOYota.

They're good cars, unless you get hit by a lifted F350. It should be noted that BMW uses more recycled parts in their cars than Toyota does, based on each individual car (not totals, because obviously Toyota sells way more cars than BMW). That's not re-manufactured parts - just parts that are designed with ability to recycle valued over overall quality. See: plastic water pump impellers.


hehe aged 16 i don't think i ever have. But i have driven a 6 cylinder car (3.3L) can airbags be added to e24s?

Just driving a 6 cylinder car won't prepare you for an M3. My Explorer is a 4.0L 6 cyl., and they're quite different to drive. Yes, you could install airbags - but airbag systems with the air bags and sensors and whatnot would cost about $5k to install, just for driver/passenger front air bags. If it didn't come with them from the factory, it's not worth retrofitting them.


Ok so M3 is out of the question. 635 L6 vs the camry?

I just went looking on ebay, and found a steering wheel with an airbag that fits the 635csi
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-Steering-Wheel-Air-Bag-E24-635-635csi-1987-1989_W0QQitemZ350240349471QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ200 90815?IMSfp=TL090815141005r37544

You can't just put a steering wheel with an airbag in it into a car and expect it to work.


About the M30 engine, i thought they were supposed to last like up to 500K if maintained properly.

They can if maintained very very well, but in 90% of old cars, that's not the case. Most of the time, the owners don't know any better. The PO of my car (a little old asian man) kept telling me he regularly flushed the engine. With a water hose. He thought that was what you were supposed to do. Good thing I wasn't planning on using that engine anyway.


And im using the camry now i until i gain more exp (like leveling up in a game). but im not going to prom in a chipped up off-white camry or grand caravan :P

Rent a car/limo.


to let you in on my driving:
I go the speed limit (and sometimes 5 over in places where the road can handle) and am VERY conservative on how i drive (no i don't tailgate, like to keep a car's distance between). The only time i like to "turbo charge" is when im at a stop light, nobody is on the road but me (like to turbocharge to reach speed limit from stop to speed limit, not beyond that :P)

Then why do you need an M3? If you just kind of cruise along, you don't need a lot of power. We have an old 99 Lexus ES300 (camry with extra leather) that I use as a daily driver, and even with just 195 hp and 2 tons, it has enough umph to merge onto the freeway just fine. The camry would be just fine for you.

[youngbimmer]

camry is ok for now. its the acceleration on the highway that bothers me. i feel it has just barely enough power to pass a car. i believe that lexus is a 6 cyl engine, wheras my camry is a 2.0 4 cyl.

[bimmerseth54]

personaly I don't like e36 verts, but i guess that an m3 makes it better. Getting an m3 for your first car though? But it does seem like the better deal, less miles, newer, ect.

[ybyless]

E24s never had airbags.
Wrong.
My 89 635csi had an airbag.


The M30s (engine in the 635) were not known for being reliable.
Also wrong.
I put 100,000 miles on my 6er and never did anything other than maintenance.
Sold it with 198,000.

[DrewDude320i]

camry is ok for now. its the acceleration on the highway that bothers me. i feel it has just barely enough power to pass a car. i believe that lexus is a 6 cyl engine, wheras my camry is a 2.0 4 cyl.

Mine is a 10 year old high mileage V6, so the original 200 hp rating is probably down on power quite a bit. ES300's also weigh about 500 lbs more - so it should be fairly similar at this point.

I guess you could always just chip the engine. It has like 160 hp now, and that should be good for a few more, and a little more torque as well. I've driven the I-4 camry before, and while it's no rocket, I didn't really have any problems getting around people - it just had to downshift to do it.

If you're really fixed on a BMW, you could probably go a long way in an E30 that's in good shape. The old 6ers are pretty reliable, but you really need to know how to fix it yourself if it breaks, or you're in for one hell of a bill. You have to remember that most of the mechanics they hire have been trained on computer controlled vehicles, where they can plug in a computer, the car says exactly what's wrong, and then they have a step by step procedure for replacing it. While your car has a basic computer, it doesn't have anything that complex, so diagnostic time would be high. I had this problem when I took my E21 to the dealer for the first (and last) time.

[SilverBeam]

camry is ok for now. its the acceleration on the highway that bothers me. i feel it has just barely enough power to pass a car. i believe that lexus is a 6 cyl engine, wheras my camry is a 2.0 4 cyl.

I obviously have never been a passenger in your car and there for am just making assumptions based on the teens I've driven with. I'd like to say that the problem is with how you pass people. Based on what you are saying it sounds a little bit more like an aggressive driving problem than a power problem. You don't need to gun it to pass a car UNLESS you are cutting off someone else to pass that other car and need to accelerate quickly to get out of the way. If you give yourself room 120 hp or 240 hp shouldn't matter. You accelerate slowly, pass the other vehicle, put the blinker on and move back over. You won't have as many opportunities to pass in a less powerful car, true, but you can still do it in a 120hp Camry if you use your head and are safe. (also, at driving just 5mph over the speed limit, how many people are you truly passing? Traffic out in CA typically flows at 10 over the limit on freeways.)

As for merging onto the freeway, I know what you are saying. You want to be able to get on the gas quickly to get in front of people and feel as though you won't get trapped when merging because of a lack of speed.

You can make up for that by paying attention sooner and finding where you will merge long before you get on the freeway. Start looking at the pattern of the cars as soon as you can see them from the on ramp (looking far ahead is important here). Look for your opening, plan your merge. Don't be afraid to get behind someone, especially semi trucks.

Most crashes with 18 wheelers happen because a car driver doesn't respect the truck driver's space. They need a lot more room to stop than a car does so as a car driver you need to give them the room to do that. If you are merging onto the freeway and cut off a truck because you don't want to get behind it, then don't have the power to get out of his way, yes, that will be frightening. But it can be solved by getting behind the truck, and making the next lane change when it is safe. Because trust me, you do NOT want to be rear ended by a semi truck. I have some frightening photos of what can happen when people don't give trucks the space they need.

I wish you were in Southern California. I'd take you out and give you a lesson.

[Impulsed7]

Its sad, but down here in VA (at least va beach) most drivers do 5-10 under, in ALL lanes. It gets annoying when you have to use those small spaces to pass to get to a good cruising speed.

If the kid wants a RWD classy car, let him get one, just steer him in the right direction. Less power, more handling, good looks, comfort and reliability. get an e46 323/325, or an e36 318/325.

with my first car everyone pointed me towards a FWD econobox, and I was never happy. My parents forced me to buy it. all I wanted back then was a stock 5.0 Mustang hatch or a miata. Was never really happy until my first 325.

[GunnerNell]

Red car = police magnet

[SilverBeam]

Its sad, but down here in VA (at least va beach) most drivers do 5-10 under, in ALL lanes. It gets annoying when you have to use those small spaces to pass to get to a good cruising speed.

If the kid wants a RWD classy car, let him get one, just steer him in the right direction. Less power, more handling, good looks, comfort and reliability. get an e46 323/325, or an e36 318/325.

with my first car everyone pointed me towards a FWD econobox, and I was never happy. My parents forced me to buy it. all I wanted back then was a stock 5.0 Mustang hatch or a miata. Was never really happy until my first 325.

One of the problems with having a really nice first car is that when he is older and goes out to buy something himself he won't be able to find something as nice as what he had when he was 16.

[youngbimmer]

my spending limit is actually what i have (no its not unlimited) so around 4K. I heard the 635 is a very good car overall on speed, balance and handling. its black in color, and the M3 is silver. i noticed that the components for the airbag (the brain control and the airbag steering wheel) cost just under 500$ for the parts, labor should be how much?

[SilverBeam]

You are a stubborn one, aren't you?

[SilverBeam]

http://lynchburg.craigslist.org/ctd/1333322053.html

http://charlottesville.craigslist.org/cto/1329008569.html

http://charlottesville.craigslist.org/cto/1305438208.html

http://roanoke.craigslist.org/cto/1287687411.html

[xatlas0]

my spending limit is actually what i have (no its not unlimited) so around 4K. I heard the 635 is a very good car overall on speed, balance and handling. its black in color, and the M3 is silver. i noticed that the components for the airbag (the brain control and the airbag steering wheel) cost just under 500$ for the parts, labor should be how much?

You really don't understand. The airbag by itself will not work. An airbag is part of a system, one that is heavily integrated into the car, moreso than just the controller and airbag. You may as well be asking to convert the car to OBD-II. You probably could do it, but you would have to effectively strip the car and rebuild it from scratch, at which point you are in the hole more than 10k.

A late E30 318, or E36 318 (both with a manual) is your best bet, since you can't find any E34 525s around, if you are dead set on a BMW. You have to slog through the mud before you can truly appreciate being clean.

Also, as Silver said, you don't need a ton of power to pass, you need to properly identify when you should pass.

I would strongly advise against the E24, primarily because you lack the skills required to fix it if you are in a bind. If you were a gearhead, you could probably pull it off, but the risk of you being stranded and not being able to fix it are too high.

[jasonk02]

let me just throw in here my two cents since everyone else allready did. Id say go with the m3. Its not as bad as you think. Im 17 and just got my 1st car in may. A 1998 323is with 138k on it. I love it and the thing people say about fixing it isnt as bad as it seems. I have a pt job play high school sports and can still afford to pay for most of the maintenance. I mean i do have a coolant leak that might turn out to be pricey but im telling you once your driving around in it your gonna be in love and personally ill do whatever it takes to keep my bimmer on the road. Besides common now, i drive a bmw to school, im a senior, can you imagine how many girls

[ybyless]

I would strongly advise against the E24, primarily because you lack the skills required to fix it if you are in a bind. If you were a gearhead, you could probably pull it off, but the risk of you being stranded and not being able to fix it are too high.

Well put. I couldn't agree more.

[jose325i]

Take the advice from silverbeam and the rest. The old 6-er is not a good choice for you. And simply by the fact that you are asking about retrofitting an airbag system to one I can tell you don't know much about cars. If you MUST get a bimmer, make sure you have plenty of $$$ laying around to take care of maintenance, because a older used bimmer is going to need maintenance. Lots of it.

I say you should look at a 2000-ish VW jetta/golf. They are front-wheel drive, but have plenty of passing power, and are still pretty fun cars. For about 4-5k, you can get one with relatively low miles (50-60k), and not in need of maintenance as long as you stay away from the turbo models. If you are a responsible driver like you say you are, you will not notice a difference between a FWD and RWD car. If you push the car too hard and make a stupid tight turn too fast, then you will get understeer instead of oversteer. A RWD car's oversteer aka tail whipping outwards can be more difficult to control, especially for a newbie driver on a rainy day (most likely to happen on a wet day).

[youngbimmer]

hmm i see thanks for all the answers. guess im not gonna pursue either car. I thought that bmw's would be more reliable than an american car, and thought it was a good deal for 3500. thats too bad, but i don't want to be stranded on the road either.

Since i am hearing that older bmws require LOTS of maintenence, what usually goes wrong? My other option is an old japanese car (celica or integra) or a old camaro. everything old must require some amount of maintenence right? What would a 87 635CSi vs:
95 celica with 132K
95 Integra with 189K
94 Camaro with 170K
98 Olds Aurora with 189K
87 635csi
What would require the most maintenence? It can't be worse than my current grand caravan. its been in and out of the shop almost constantly (ac gone, VERY rough idling, trans slipped, windows wont roll up or down). It already cost a lot to maintain it when all of this started to happen. What im asking is what would an older BMW compare to this? weve fed around 5K into that caravan and it still acts up. If bmw's will be like that, then i wouldn't want one. Im browsing for BMW with the understanding that they are reliable and quality built. If not, please tell me so. thanks again for al the advice.

[xatlas0]

hmm i see thanks for all the answers. guess im not gonna pursue either car. I thought that bmw's would be more reliable than an american car, and thought it was a good deal for 3500. thats too bad, but i don't want to be stranded on the road either.

Since i am hearing that older bmws require LOTS of maintenence, what usually goes wrong? My other option is an old japanese car (celica or integra) or a old camaro. everything old must require some amount of maintenence right? What would a 87 635CSi vs:
95 celica with 132K
95 Integra with 189K
94 Camaro with 170K
98 Olds Aurora with 189K
87 635csi
What would require the most maintenence? It can't be worse than my current grand caravan. its been in and out of the shop almost constantly (ac gone, VERY rough idling, trans slipped, windows wont roll up or down). It already cost a lot to maintain it when all of this started to happen. What im asking is what would an older BMW compare to this? weve fed around 5K into that caravan and it still acts up. If bmw's will be like that, then i wouldn't want one. Im browsing for BMW with the understanding that they are reliable and quality built. If not, please tell me so. thanks again for al the advice.

They are very well built, but they also have a very set replacement/upkeep schedule. Many owners dismiss this routine, leading to more failures.

Really, the car requires a good deal of preventative upkeep, or costly regular upkeep. As an example, a brake job, when labor is included, is usually a 1k job, and should be done every ~40k miles. Inspections are performed every 15k. For some engines, valve adjustments need to be performed every 15k. If you get a car with a M20 engine, the timing belt is usually done in the 50k mile range. You cannot run and run these cars like some older Japanese vehicles, which will require little upkeep until they fail in a conflagration of mechanical discord. The BMW will fail progressively, unless the strict upkeep routine is maintained.

As an example, my 94 540 has required approximately 1-2k of upkeep annually for the last 15 years. Some years are higher, others are lower. It has never left me stranded, nor has it required a major fix, such as an engine rebuild, at least partially due to my adherence to the upkeep schedule. (my 540 is exceptional in this regard, but common compared to BMW at large. Search for "Nikasil" to understand why.)

So will they be reliable? Yes, very, as long as you keep it maintained. It the car has not been maintained, the reliability will be suspect.

[systemx29]

Well if i were to get the M3, it my mom would be sharing it with me most the time (its mostly gonna be her car). I already drive with my dad in his '99 camry. reliable yes, safety? Thank god i don't have to comment on that and hope i never have too. I have heard some horror stories of corollas and celicas crumpling up like crushed soda cans too. the thing i don't like about my camry is that is 4 cylinder, and it has miserable performance. Stop light to go, it goes to like 4 or 5k rpms and its EXTREMELY sluggish. Not to mention its paint is all chipped and looks like crap (its white too!). My other option is a '99 dodge grand caravan with no AC and non working windows, and i don't think it would be much of a chick magnet XD. I chose a BMW because they look awesome, very safe from what i hear, are very reliable (unlike the several american cars my parents have owned in the past).

Is there any e24 bmw with airbags? Even though they don't have airbags, i heard they are very sturdy vehicles. Reliability wise, what things typically go wrong? I know i have to be on top of oil changes/timing belts/tire changes, but is there any thing else i should be worried about? (transmission, engine, AC compresser, etc).



as a 19 year old with an e24...my advice is DO NOT GET ONE.

they are not a good first driver car. it's the same thing with the m3. would you put your new driver in a porsche? no. you wouldnt. e24's are the pinnacle of 80's bmw engineering(right along with the m's) and should be treated as such. they are reliable, sure. they drive great, sure. but again, would you put your new driver in a "bavarian ferrari"?

on top of the fact that they are more of a show car than anything. parts are somewhat hard to come by given the roughly 80k units produced in a 14 year span. the l6 has a very problematic leather covered dash, and any e24 "in restoration" is not going to be a good daily driver. you only have two seats, since the rear bucket seats can only be used if the people in the back seat are tiny.

i don't know if someone mentioned it, but you need to remember that the 4k you have availible is only going to cover the purchase price, expect to put ATLEASTE 1k into the car getting SOME of the NECCESARY bits up to speed.


on the contrary however, i started with an 87 325iC. if you can find an e30 in good shape, do it. no questions asked. dont listen to people saying RWD is not good for a new driver. people drove rwd for years, since there was nothing else availible. you have to learn sometime. just be sure to hit up a local parking lot in the rain and kick the rear out a few times to get an idea of how she's going to handle in the rain.

[youngbimmer]

i have checked out the car before its restoration process, and the dash wasnt all to bad actually, and neither was the leather in the seats. it needed a new paintjob, and cosmetic restoration, but other than that is was a very likable car. maintenence such as oil changes/tires/brakes i can do, and parents will help me there. ive got to worry about gas though. There is an 88 e30iC auto, but im not looking into as the leather inside is very worn, and it has rust in places where i don't think there should be.

systemx29, how has your e24 treated you maintenence wise, gas mileage wise, reliability wise?

[cline328]

Staying alive is always smart. A 91 318is would make me happy.

And if you use your your head... :shifty

no tickets, and no wrecks.

[youngbimmer]

typically, here are the body styles of BMW im looking for:
e24
e30
e28
e34

Styles i avoid:
e39
e36

what is the upkeep cost of the 635 on average yearly?

[systemx29]

i have checked out the car before its restoration process, and the dash wasnt all to bad actually, and neither was the leather in the seats. it needed a new paintjob, and cosmetic restoration, but other than that is was a very likable car. maintenence such as oil changes/tires/brakes i can do, and parents will help me there. ive got to worry about gas though. There is an 88 e30iC auto, but im not looking into as the leather inside is very worn, and it has rust in places where i don't think there should be.

systemx29, how has your e24 treated you maintenence wise, gas mileage wise, reliability wise?

my e24 has got roughly 129k, and is rust free. she's probably in the 4-5k range. i havent payed much attention to my gas mileage because when i have been able to drive her, i've been to busy driving to pay attention. however, its safe to say its under 20mpg highway i should think. i have 0 mechanical know how, and so far she hasnt been too bad to work on. don't forget these cars will not have working ac(its possible, but very doubtful) and the heater blowers tend to need to replaced. i havent replaced mine yet, though i will be soon. from what i understand its an ordeal. i've taken apart the rear ac console, and as everyone says, the plastic parts on these cars are getting old and brittle, and they break easily. ask me how i know. it's things like breaking the plastic nobs, that can add up in cost. while used parts are availible, its not like the e30 scene where someone has what you need always. its much more difficult to find parts, since there are far fewer cars. a wanted ad might go without a response for a months if the part you need is not something common...and even then, more often then not, your going to have difficulty getting what you need used. dont even think about going to bmw for parts. these cars are really not dd material, especially not for a 17 year old. trust me when i tell you, do not buy an e24. it's going to be nothing but headaches because things break, all the time, repairs are not cheap, and the car get poor gas mileage, and can only seat two people. if you hade 20k to spend for restoration i'd say go for it, but you don't.

an e24 was my dream car, and now i'm trying to work with my parents to see if i can find a way to garage her, turn her into a project for my father and i, and buy an e28, or e30 as my daily.

wait till your older, and more financially capable. the "holy shit i drive a cool car" quickly turns into "holy shit i have to spend MORE money on the cool car i CANT drive?"

deff go BMW though. look into an e28 or an e30. easy to work on, relatively inexpensive to maintain and reliable as can be...and most importantly, a BLAST to drive


edit: your looking at a grand a year minimum on maintenance, not including preventive replacements.

[youngbimmer]

ok thanks for the advice guys! hope there will be 635 when im 40, i can't afford putting that much money into a car lol. needed something to take me from point a to point be in style without draining my wallet. oh well. ill see if i can find an e30 somewhere.

[Macktheknife]

The M30s (engine in the 635) were not known for being reliable. What was the most complicated thing that you've ever done to a car?

Why are you ragging on the M30 so much? There's a reason it was produced for nearly 30 years.


ok thanks for the advice guys! hope there will be 635 when im 40, i can't afford putting that much money into a car lol. needed something to take me from point a to point be in style without draining my wallet. oh well. ill see if i can find an e30 somewhere.

And srsly, consider getting a 5-speed.

[Ladies]

Why do yo want an old one so much? e36 for 4-5k is a good medium i thought. I mean mine was like 1800 but i but it as a project. about 500 though and its looking decent. just look for something solid running at that age.

[GunnerNell]

You want reliable transportation that isn't going to cost you an arm and a leg in repairs/maintenance? Go Japanese. You will not find a car that will give you better service for a longer time. In order of longevity, in my considerable experience, Hondas are the best, followed by Toyotas, then Subarus and Nissans. I've had good luck with all of them. And despite what some of the posters have said, I do not believe the cars built after about 1990 are deathtraps in any way, at least no more so than most other cars of the same size. I know little about the Korean cars, but some of them have been getting good reviews/reports for their later offerings. I had a Miata for a while, too, and if you can find one of about the 2000 vintage*, I think you'll be very happy with that. Very sporty, very reliable, and a helluva lot of fun to drive. Good luck.

*I say 2000 because that was the year I had, and I think after that Ford's influence might have increased a bit. I'm fearful of the quality of Ford products.

[CPrez150]

i first car is actually a motorcycle

so everybody thats trying to be conservative, just stop
go out there and have fun, do what makes u happy,
dont listen to all these nay sayers

[HaloEye]

motorcycles arent cars. but back to the OP just get something you are going to LOVE in a year or 2. dont get be in the position where you get some lame car then regret not getting an M3. you should get an M3 and bring it up to par (if it isnt).

[Kris88]

I was gonna post defending OP, but after reading the thread...

:stickoutt

[youngbimmer]

the m3 is ready to roll off the lot. looks and sounds very clean. 635 is almost here. Love the styling of the 6 though, although its more than likely i will be keeping the camry :(. i wouldda been content if it had been a v6, but 4 cylinder is not providing me enough "feel" in the car. it lags and doesn't perform like it used to, even though its been religously maintained.

[holmzy17]

[QUOTE=DrewDude320i;17190310]1 year of driving without an accident is not impressive.

Okay Drew Buddy, I was trying to insinuate that if you're smart about it, being young with a somewhat quick car is not a big deal. And I'm 19 now, so it's been three years without an infraction...which I think is pretty reasonable for your first three years. Is your insurance 90 bucks every 6 months?

[KenAllen08]

This kid shouldn't be looking for a BMW, he's looking for a dodge neon with street glow, blingin rims, a fake exhaust turbo, fast red spark plug wires, huge wing with fake carbon fiber, all kinds of neon in the interior, and some huge crappy subs with a 50W amp and a crazy dual headunit.

This kid is going to ruin a nice car showing how fast it can go to his buddies.

I'm 19, had a dodge shadow for 2 years, I've driven on track a dirt car with a 358 big block, then I finally got a 325iC when I moved to AZ. Why am I not as dumb as this kid? So indecisive and ridiculous. He doesn't listen.

[j0sh866]

It is too much power. I've taught hundreds of kids how to drive too.



Standard on a 2005 Camry along with airbags, something a 20 year old six series doesn't have.



There are far more important things than what is cool when you are a new driver. Safety is number one. And no teen has any idea what they are getting into. The teenage brain hasn't developed the ability to properly assess risk. There is no preparation a teen can do to get ready for a sports car other than to wait until they have matured more. Further education can help, but it can't completely overcome a lack of experience and cognitive development.

Please don't act like you can generalize every teenager into the reckless driver category just because you teach them how to drive. I once wrote a paper discussing how adults are also unsafe drivers, like teenagers due to worse eyesight, reaction time, etc. Adults also have no hesitation having a drink or two or three and getting behind the wheel. I am not trying to defend teenagers' actions, because somedo make poor decisions while driving, but it is untrue that teenagers cannot "properly assess risk."

[xatlas0]

Please don't act like you can generalize every teenager into the reckless driver category just because you teach them how to drive. I once wrote a paper discussing how adults are also unsafe drivers, like teenagers due to worse eyesight, reaction time, etc. Adults also have no hesitation having a drink or two or three and getting behind the wheel. I am not trying to defend teenagers' actions, because somedo make poor decisions while driving, but it is untrue that teenagers cannot "properly assess risk."

Have you looked at the accident and fatality statistics? Based on your general tone and defensiveness, I also guessing you are one of those teen drivers. How old do you think SB is, or I am? I'll give you a hint: not very old. Why do you think SB is so certain about what she says?

I'm with SB on this one, driving judgement is a skill you gain as you become both more used to driving and more used to a particular car's limits, no matter what age you are.

[lindhaw]

i would say the M3 but its a convertible and im just not the biggest fan of any convertible and if you dont have any mechanical experience than the L6 isnt for you. i would recommend the e36 323is, 235is, 328is with under 100K.

[Hoboo128]

dibs on the engine when you wrap the m around a poll :shifty

[The_Stig]

I learned how to drive and spent my first 2.5 years behind the wheel of a 1995 4.0L Grand Cherokee. Too bulky to be dumb in, and too slow to get in trouble with. God knows I love that car to death, but I waited until the very end of my Senior year of hs to buy a car...enter 1998 328is!

That was 2 years ago now.

[youngbimmer]

This kid shouldn't be looking for a BMW, he's looking for a dodge neon with street glow, blingin rims, a fake exhaust turbo, fast red spark plug wires, huge wing with fake carbon fiber, all kinds of neon in the interior, and some huge crappy subs with a 50W amp and a crazy dual headunit.

This kid is going to ruin a nice car showing how fast it can go to his buddies.

I'm 19, had a dodge shadow for 2 years, I've driven on track a dirt car with a 358 big block, then I finally got a 325iC when I moved to AZ. Why am I not as dumb as this kid? So indecisive and ridiculous. He doesn't listen.
excuse you? I want no dodge neon, no i hate anything with neon and rims on it or stupid bling. i don't like to "pimp my ride". I like classy BMW. You also have no right to call me dumb, as i am taking all advice into consideration. if you have nothing constructive to say, back off. im acually now looking at an 04 325xi with 70K on it, if i do get it, im sharing it with my mom. its going for 12 grand.

[j0sh866]

Have you looked at the accident and fatality statistics? Based on your general tone and defensiveness, I also guessing you are one of those teen drivers. How old do you think SB is, or I am? I'll give you a hint: not very old. Why do you think SB is so certain about what she says?

I'm with SB on this one, driving judgement is a skill you gain as you become both more used to driving and more used to a particular car's limits, no matter what age you are.

I am not one of those "teen drivers," I'm not even a teenager. A mod shouldn't be able to say that all teenagers cannot assess risk, because it is completely untrue. A teenager with poor decision making will drive recklessly no matter what car he is in.

Oh and btw, the OP didn't ask for a safety lecture. He could be a better driver than any of us for all we know. All age groups are full of bad drivers, and although experience does help, some people will start as great drivers, and some will be terrible drivers for their whole life.

How old do I think you and SB are? I don't care, and I don't get what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to tell me that both of you are inexperienced drivers? Why do I think SB is so certain about what she says? She teaches some kind of driving course it sounds like, and therefore automatically knows everything about the teenage mind :rolleyes.

[youngbimmer]

this thread was not meant to turn into a flame war. it was meant to decide between the two cars. The safety info was just an added bonus. Statistics are statistics, and i do not plan on becoming one.

[j0sh866]

this thread was not meant to turn into a flame war. it was meant to decide between the two cars. The safety info was just an added bonus. Statistics are statistics, and i do not plan on becoming one.

That being said, get the m3 :buttrock.

[joeking1978]

What are you using to gauge how much power is acceptable for a new driver? I had a Boxster S when I was 16. Never got in a wreck and never got so much as a speeding ticket. If a kid wants to be an idiot in their car it doesnt matter what make or model it is. If they want to drive like an ass they are going to die either way. You hit a tree going 90+ in ANYTHING and it is pretty much game over.

worse advice in this thread...



just because you were lucky to have avoided ill fate owning a Boxter S at 16... doesn't mean that you are the rule, sadly you are just the exception.

Saying that it doesn't matter what they drive... if they drive like an idiot, they will die regardless is pure ignorance. I'm guessing you are still not much past 16... I'll say 19-21 and trust me, at that age what you think you know... you'll scoff at by the time you are 25-30.

The reason why it is ignorance- the faster a car accelerates, the easier it is to 1.) lose control via wheel spin 2.) faster speeds in shorter distances increase chances of catastrophic damage (a kid flooring an M3 down a short road in a neighborhood could achieve high enough speeds to actually hit something/someone hard enough to force severe deceleration injuries/death... vs. a kid flooring a 318. A 318 just won't achieve the same speed in a short distance and thus minimizes potential for catostrophic damage) 3.) cause less time to recover from bad mistakes (ie- flooring it at an intersection and not seeing an oncoming truck. The distance in the covered by an M3 in the time it takes from flooring the gas to slamming on the break (about .8-1.2 seconds for most drivers) will be about 10-15'. In a 318 it is about 4-5'. This creates more opportunity avoid danger.

Being able to accelerate fast for merging on the highway is NOT a safety concern. That's why you have F'ing ON RAMPs for crying out loud. You don't need a high powered beast to hit 70 on 90% of the worlds on-ramps.


E24s never had airbags.

BMWs crumple like tin cans also, especially when run into trees. The reliability of the M30s are questionable, and not time efficient if you're a beginner to mechanics.

Have you even driven an M3?

you have to be one of the most mature 15yr olds I've ever come across on a web forum. bravo...

you get a stick man. :alright

[j0sh866]

worse advice in this thread...



just because you were lucky to have avoided ill fate owning a Boxter S at 16... doesn't mean that you are the rule, sadly you are just the exception.

Saying that it doesn't matter what they drive... if they drive like an idiot, they will die regardless is pure ignorance. I'm guessing you are still not much past 16... I'll say 19-21 and trust me, at that age what you think you know... you'll scoff at by the time you are 25-30.

The reason why it is ignorance- the faster a car accelerates, the easier it is to 1.) lose control via wheel spin 2.) faster speeds in shorter distances increase chances of catastrophic damage (a kid flooring an M3 down a short road in a neighborhood could achieve high enough speeds to actually hit something/someone hard enough to force severe deceleration injuries/death... vs. a kid flooring a 318. A 318 just won't achieve the same speed in a short distance and thus minimizes potential for catostrophic damage) 3.) cause less time to recover from bad mistakes (ie- flooring it at an intersection and not seeing an oncoming truck. The distance in the covered by an M3 in the time it takes from flooring the gas to slamming on the break (about .8-1.2 seconds for most drivers) will be about 10-15'. In a 318 it is about 4-5'. This creates more opportunity avoid danger.

Being able to accelerate fast for merging on the highway is NOT a safety concern. That's why you have F'ing ON RAMPs for crying out loud. You don't need a high powered beast to hit 70 on 90% of the worlds on-ramps.

I don't know why everyone has to jump on this guy, he doesn't need a safety lecture. If he left out the one sentence about having his learners permit right now, you wouldn't be criticizing his car choice. You assume that a teenager with a fast car is bound to speed in a neighborhood, which is untrue. But even if he had a 318, he could still get up to 40mph in 5 seconds or so, which is fast enough to kill anything he hits. The M3 brakes better than the 318 as well.

But that is beside the point, it is all about the driver, not the car, so stop turning the OP into a statistic without knowing anything about him.

Oh and by the way, judging your grammar, you sound like you are not much older than 15.

[SilverBeam]

Please don't act like you can generalize every teenager into the reckless driver category just because you teach them how to drive. I once wrote a paper discussing how adults are also unsafe drivers, like teenagers due to worse eyesight, reaction time, etc. Adults also have no hesitation having a drink or two or three and getting behind the wheel. I am not trying to defend teenagers' actions, because somedo make poor decisions while driving, but it is untrue that teenagers cannot "properly assess risk."

Writing a paper on a topic doesn't make you an expert. I'd like to know what you got on that paper, because your thesis was incorrect.

Teens cause 188% more crashes than adult drivers (http://injurylaw.reganfirm.com/2007/10/articles/automobile-accidents/older-drivers-not-the-most-dangerous-new-study/)

The human brain does not develop risk assessment until the mid 20s (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52687-2005Jan31.html)

Lack of cognitive development causes many teen crashes.
(http://ezinearticles.com/?Risk-In-Teenagers---Why-Do-They-Take-Work,-Driving-And-Life-Risks?--Explanations-Here&id=944972)
Alcohol is a factor in more teen crashes than adult crashes. (http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.cd18639c9dadbabbbf30811060008a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef 9a_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef9a _viewID=detail_view&itemID=f9ebd60670268110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD&viewType=standard)

I am not just brushing broad brush strokes on how teen drivers drive. It has been researched and studied for decades. I have dedicated my life to changing the way we educate teens in order to reduce crashes and such have read most of the research on the topic. I believe I am in a better place to comment about teens' driving behavior than you are.

Very few teen drivers want advice on how to be safe, but that doesn't mean that they do not deserve this information. 40% of teen deaths are at the hands of automobiles. Education, parental involvement, peer pressure and smart choices can drastically decrease a teen's risk of crashes. So I don't care if he wants safety advice or not: I'm giving it to him because I care deeply about his safety and I do not want him to be another statistic if I can help it.

[joeking1978]

I don't know why everyone has to jump on this guy, he doesn't need a safety lecture. If he left out the one sentence about having his learners permit right now, you wouldn't be criticizing his car choice. You assume that a teenager with a fast car is bound to speed in a neighborhood, which is untrue. But even if he had a 318, he could still get up to 40mph in 5 seconds or so, which is fast enough to kill anything he hits. The M3 brakes better than the 318 as well.

But that is beside the point, it is all about the driver, not the car, so stop turning the OP into a statistic without knowing anything about him.

.

wow... you are a defensive one. First- no one said I "assume" that he will do any of the above since he is a teenager. However, based on the same statistics you want to source... more teenagers do than don't. He can be an exception, but this is all neither here nor there. The simple fact is he is an unexperienced driver. Unexperienced drivers make more mistakes than the alternative. Yes- older drivers have an increased risk as well (but we are talking 55 and above is when you see the regression in reaction time/reflexes/vision, etc)... BUT older drivers are better at evaluating risk and thus avoiding situations where their reflexes could fail them. Putting an unexperienced driver who's prone to making mistakes into a high powered vehicle is increasing the statistical likelihood for deadly mistakes.

if you really "Wrote a paper" on this than you would know that Nationally 8,666 teenagers died in car accidents last year. 105 in Virginia, 810 in California.

crash rates for 16yr olds is 3.7x's higher than all other ages. Rates for 16-19 is 2.7x's higher.

Here's just 1 link of hundreds with such statistical DMV data: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/teenweb/more_btn6/traffic/traffic.htm#

If I was your teacher... you get an F if you truly feel your "Statistics" support your argument otherwise. :shifty


Oh and by the way, judging your grammar, you sound like you are not much older than 15
:withstupi

My mistake, next time I post I will be sure to follow APA standards.

[SilverBeam]

hmm i see thanks for all the answers. guess im not gonna pursue either car. I thought that bmw's would be more reliable than an american car, and thought it was a good deal for 3500. thats too bad, but i don't want to be stranded on the road either.

Since i am hearing that older bmws require LOTS of maintenence, what usually goes wrong? My other option is an old japanese car (celica or integra) or a old camaro. everything old must require some amount of maintenence right? What would a 87 635CSi vs:
95 celica with 132K
95 Integra with 189K
94 Camaro with 170K
98 Olds Aurora with 189K
87 635csi
What would require the most maintenence? It can't be worse than my current grand caravan. its been in and out of the shop almost constantly (ac gone, VERY rough idling, trans slipped, windows wont roll up or down). It already cost a lot to maintain it when all of this started to happen. What im asking is what would an older BMW compare to this? weve fed around 5K into that caravan and it still acts up. If bmw's will be like that, then i wouldn't want one. Im browsing for BMW with the understanding that they are reliable and quality built. If not, please tell me so. thanks again for al the advice.

If those are your options I think you should just drive the Camry for a few years. It is larger and safer than most of the cars you listed, other than the olds, but do you really want to drive a grandma's car? I also feel you'll have similar complaints about an Integra and Celica as you have with the Camry.

Caravans are notoriously unreliably. The transmission problems you have are very common. You will be hard pressed to find much out there that is more unreliable than it is. However, some automatic bmws with high miles have similar transmission problems and the window problem is probably window regulators, a common BMW problem.

If I were you I would drive the Camry and save some money. Learn how to drive in something slow and safe, then in a few years you'll have a much better idea of what kind of car you want and you'll have more money to spend on a replacement car. I think you'll end up being happier this way. When I was 16 I had no idea what I wanted as a car. I saw cars that I thought looked good, but when I drove them I didn't know what made a good car or a bad car. After a year and a half of driving a hand-me-down I had a much better idea of what I was looking for and I had the money to buy it.

[j0sh866]

Writing a paper on a topic doesn't make you an expert. I'd like to know what you got on that paper, because your thesis was incorrect.

Teens cause 188% more crashes than adult drivers (http://injurylaw.reganfirm.com/2007/10/articles/automobile-accidents/older-drivers-not-the-most-dangerous-new-study/)

The human brain does not develop risk assessment until the mid 20s (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52687-2005Jan31.html)

Lack of cognitive development causes many teen crashes.
(http://ezinearticles.com/?Risk-In-Teenagers---Why-Do-They-Take-Work,-Driving-And-Life-Risks?--Explanations-Here&id=944972)
Alcohol is a factor in more teen crashes than adult crashes. (http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.cd18639c9dadbabbbf30811060008a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef 9a_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef9a _viewID=detail_view&itemID=f9ebd60670268110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD&viewType=standard)

I am not just brushing broad brush strokes on how teen drivers drive. It has been researched and studied for decades. I have dedicated my life to changing the way we educate teens in order to reduce crashes and such have read most of the research on the topic. I believe I am in a better place to comment about teens' driving behavior than you are.

Very few teen drivers want advice on how to be safe, but that doesn't mean that they do not deserve this information. 40% of teen deaths are at the hands of automobiles. Education, parental involvement, peer pressure and smart choices can drastically decrease a teen's risk of crashes. So I don't care if he wants safety advice or not: I'm giving it to him because I care deeply about his safety and I do not want him to be another statistic if I can help it.

The thesis of my paper wasn't to prove that adult's are worse drivers than teenagers; I wouldn't be able to prove that because tons of statistics say otherwise. The main purpose of the paper was to tell adults to take a look at themselves before accusing others about their driving. All I want to point out is that the OP is immediately being judged as if he is an unsafe driver just because he is new to driving. It all comes down to the driver, not the car. Just because an m3 can go 155mph, and accelerate to 60 in under 6 seconds doesn't mean the driver is going to.

OP, try looking into an intergra gsr, or a 325 or 328 e36. Those would be fun, safe, choices. Just make sure they have been maintained well.

[stupenal]

Join date - May 2002.

Over 7 years ago, I bought my first car. 1992 325i 5spd. Wow i thought i was cool in hs, driving a bmw which was worlds better than my 1989 camry.

7 years later, while it was a great learning experience...it was a dumb move financially. Dropped an easy $3k in repairs in the course of 2 years, and sold the car to someone on the forums for $1800 after the rear subframe ripped out. Got a 2001 accord coupe 5 spd and drove the piss out of it, replacing just the brake pads and changing the oil.

Point is - its hard to try and swallow the desire for a "nice" car when you're a teen, I know because I gave in worked my ass off for my first car. However, looking back, I should've just saved the coin, bought a cheap japanese car that's somewhat still "fun" and drive the piss out of it through college. Once you graduate college and have a real job, then start buying "toys" and whatnot.

Best of luck. Listen to those who are older because honestly, it's a been there done that.

[youngbimmer]

would shutting off the AC in the camry give it better acceleration? If so, i think ill just get a repaint for it and maybe add a spoiler. Thant should do it for a few years. That grand caravan though has cost us a heck of a lot in repairs, i can't image any car other than a cavalier with as much problems as it. Don't underestimate the olds aurora, that thing can go. ive tried one :) also, my parents are trying to get a "nice car" for themselves. Mom wants the M3, I want the 635, dad wants a jaguar xj6 lol. can't help them there, but if turning off the ac DOES improve acceleration, then a paint job it is then, and im keeping it. thanks for all the info!

[j0sh866]

would shutting off the AC in the camry give it better acceleration? If so, i think ill just get a repaint for it and maybe add a spoiler. Thant should do it for a few years. That grand caravan though has cost us a heck of a lot in repairs, i can't image any car other than a cavalier with as much problems as it. Don't underestimate the olds aurora, that thing can go. ive tried one :) also, my parents are trying to get a "nice car" for themselves. Mom wants the M3, I want the 635, dad wants a jaguar xj6 lol. can't help them there, but if turning off the ac DOES improve acceleration, then a paint job it is then, and im keeping it. thanks for all the info!

Lol, yeah turning the ac off will help, but not drastically.

[youngbimmer]

also, to the person who said e24s never came with airbags, they are wrong. i did some digging and e24s did indeed come with an option for airbags. ill just have to look around and see if it has one, and if not, just ask how much it would cost to add them. but definitly gonna keep my camry, even though my mom (an 86 e30 driver, 5spd) is quite pleased with the asthetics of the 635 and is thinking about getting it for herself :D

[j0sh866]

also, to the person who said e24s never came with airbags, they are wrong. i did some digging and e24s did indeed come with an option for airbags. ill just have to look around and see if it has one, and if not, just ask how much it would cost to add them. but definitly gonna keep my camry, even though my mom (an 86 e30 driver, 5spd) is quite pleased with the asthetics of the 635 and is thinking about getting it for herself :D

It's really not worth trying to put one in, it's a lot of work. But I don't think an airbag should restrict you from buying the car. I am sure many parents would say otherwise.

[joeking1978]

would shutting off the AC in the camry give it better acceleration? If so, i think ill just get a repaint for it and maybe add a spoiler. Thant should do it for a few years. That grand caravan though has cost us a heck of a lot in repairs, i can't image any car other than a cavalier with as much problems as it. Don't underestimate the olds aurora, that thing can go. ive tried one :) also, my parents are trying to get a "nice car" for themselves. Mom wants the M3, I want the 635, dad wants a jaguar xj6 lol. can't help them there, but if turning off the ac DOES improve acceleration, then a paint job it is then, and im keeping it. thanks for all the info!

are you serious? :confused

[lqaddict]

would shutting off the AC in the camry give it better acceleration? If so, i think ill just get a repaint for it and maybe add a spoiler...
Really? I understand that you want to be a cool kid in the school, in this regard, Camry would be more suited with a park bench - it helps during a lift off.
Learn how to drive with your Camry, your next car will appreciate it.

[NYY2007]

i'm 16 and i got a '93 318is as my first car. i'm pretty satisfied with it. i bought it with my own money(3.5k) and do most of the maintenance myself.

i'm saving up for an e46 now. :D

[e36grant]

If you did get the 635 you would be pretty much learning as you go and working on it yourself.

I think it would be a great learning experience, there are a lot of resources out there.

The question is, would you be willing to pick up a wrench and learn how your car works?

[youngbimmer]

If you did get the 635 you would be pretty much learning as you go and working on it yourself.

I think it would be a great learning experience, there are a lot of resources out there.

The question is, would you be willing to pick up a wrench and learn how your car works?
I figure its always good to be a well rounded person. Learning how to fix cars (not professionsaly, but DIY) is fine with me. Also, found an 1987 BMW 528e with a 114K miles automatic for 2500 OBO. Think thats a better car? I hear it gets good gas mileage, its reliable, and not as expensive to maintain as the M3 or the 635CSi. Is this true for the most part?

[xatlas0]

I figure its always good to be a well rounded person. Learning how to fix cars (not professionsaly, but DIY) is fine with me. Also, found an 1987 BMW 528e with a 114K miles automatic for 2500 OBO. Think thats a better car? I hear it gets good gas mileage, its reliable, and not as expensive to maintain as the M3 or the 635CSi. Is this true for the most part?

The 528e is an interesting option, actually. It is literally a car that can grow with your abilities as you gain more experience. The engine is a M20 "eta", meaning it has a lower rev limit and is designed primarily for economy. It has enough power to live with, and good torque. A sedan is also a nicely balanced car. It is unfortunate that it is an auto, however, as driving a manual is an excellent way to ensure that your mind is always on driving, to say nothing of the fun factor.

Anyway, as your abilities grow, it is very easy to make the car significantly more powerful and a better performer overall. It is also very easy to make the car handle better, and a LSD is an easy to find retrofit, if it doesn't have it to begin with.

The 528e is a good workhorse, but so as to not end up in the same state as the E24, get a pre-purchase inspection done to make sure the car is in good shape.

[SilverBeam]

I firmly believe you should learn to drive with a manual car. It is an excellent skill to have in case of emergency. That car would probably be a pretty good choice for you. I still think you should hang on to the Camry though and buy a car when you are 18 and know a lot more about what you want from an automobile.

[99AMGJ]

NV

[youngbimmer]

i actually just finished driving school. i asked them to teach me manual, and said we don't have any manual cars, and its not required for us to teach. the best they could do was hook me up with a manual simulator, which i had no idea how to drive, but eventually i did.
it was like:
put shifter in neutral
start the car with your foot on the gas
as soon as rpms start moving, shift into desired gear
upshift when revs get too high
balance clutch with gas (don't release/press one before the other)
downshift when you start to lower speed

it was a bit hard at first, and still havn't mastered downshifting or reverse :P

feel free to add more info to the above :P

[lqaddict]

The best way to master the manual is not going to be with a first bimmer, believe me, you want a beater car and an empty parking lot. Practice, practice, practice. And it will pay up. Once you get your bimmer, driving a stick should come natural. I know there will be bunch of people who will tell you and me that they learned driving stick on their bimmers while they were still in high school - I salute you, but my advise is to get a beater that is easy and cheap to work on, so burning clutches and mis-shifts could just be little annoyances and not as financially draining as the BMW maintenance and repairs, especially for a 17 y.o.
Good luck.

[SilverBeam]

My sister learned how to drive on her first car, a 97 328is. Yes, she had to replace the clutch afterwards, but she got the car with 90,000 miles on it, so she would have had to do that in time anyways. She is very glad she learned on a manual car and is telling my younger sister to do the same when she gets her first car. I've got her sold on the Ford Focus. That was what I recommended for my own baby sister (9 years younger than me).

[youngbimmer]

not going to learn manual any time soon, parents don't feel like wasting a car on me to learn :nono

[j0sh866]

not going to learn manual any time soon, parents don't feel like wasting a car on me to learn :nono

It's not wasting a car; if you understand how a manual transmission works and take it slow and carefully you should be able to learn on it without needing to replace the clutch. If you don't get a manual for your first car, you're going to want one 6 months later. This happened to almost everyone I know including myself.

[youngbimmer]

Most of the time i will be doing city driving. Manual would be a pain don't you think? I'd rather not have to struggle with a manual shifting all the time between 2 and 1 all the time. Besides, can't find a manual car on my local craigslist. also, between the gas mileage of the 528e and the 635, is the difference great or just a little bit? Also, does the 528e deliver around the same "umph" as the 635, or can it be modified to do so?

[WILMAR188]

Just curious youngbimmer, are you Ohnoes? Don't know why but this thread seems oddly familiar.

[j0sh866]

Most of the time i will be doing city driving. Manual would be a pain don't you think? I'd rather not have to struggle with a manual shifting all the time between 2 and 1 all the time. Besides, can't find a manual car on my local craigslist. also, between the gas mileage of the 528e and the 635, is the difference great or just a little bit? Also, does the 528e deliver around the same "umph" as the 635, or can it be modified to do so?

I pretty much only drive in the city, and manual doesn't bother me. It is much more fun once you learn how to do it. 528e was designed to get good mileage, and has more low end power than high end. They are both 6 cylinders, so I don't know if the gas mileage would be that much better. I don't know the actual MPG ratings for the cars.

[youngbimmer]

Just curious youngbimmer, are you Ohnoes? Don't know why but this thread seems oddly familiar.
sorry, don't know anybody by that name. :confused :P

so you do mostly city driving and you said you average 21.1 (according to your computer)? Thats not bad IMHO. grand caravan does worse than that......

[RADI0ACTIV3M4N]

Don't compromise. Get an L6 with a manual or plans to put a manual in it. The car isn't very fast but it's still fun to drive. You will probably have less of an urge to be a boy racer in this car. The 6 series is a good cruiser and I would love to own one as a daily driver. Also, it's one of the most beautiful cars I've seen and something you can be proud of and appreciate. The e36 is a good car but with a vert in high school it is very likely that your things will be stolen and your convertible top will be ripped. The 6 is cheaper, prettier, and a better daily than an e36 and I think you will probably learn to be a better driver with it. Get it in red!

[SilverBeam]

Most of the time i will be doing city driving. Manual would be a pain don't you think? I'd rather not have to struggle with a manual shifting all the time between 2 and 1 all the time. Besides, can't find a manual car on my local craigslist. also, between the gas mileage of the 528e and the 635, is the difference great or just a little bit? Also, does the 528e deliver around the same "umph" as the 635, or can it be modified to do so?

People do it every day. I sit in traffic on my way to and from work for an hour with a manual. I'd still not buy an automatic.

As for your questions: the 5 will get better fuel economy, it won't have the umph, at 16 modifying cars to go fast shouldn't be on the agenda.

[AshamedGorilla]

People do it every day. I sit in traffic on my way to and from work for an hour with a manual. I'd still not buy an automatic.

As for your questions: the 5 will get better fuel economy, it won't have the umph, at 16 modifying cars to go fast shouldn't be on the agenda.
Every 16 year old wants to modify their cars... so yes it's on the agenda. But it should be a few years down the agenda is all.

[Nic01101011]

Most of the time i will be doing city driving. Manual would be a pain don't you think? I'd rather not have to struggle with a manual shifting all the time between 2 and 1 all the time. Besides, can't find a manual car on my local craigslist. also, between the gas mileage of the 528e and the 635, is the difference great or just a little bit? Also, does the 528e deliver around the same "umph" as the 635, or can it be modified to do so?

dont even bother with a BMW

[bodega]

i disagree with the guy saying the teenage brain hasnt developed to the ability to assess risks. it really depends on your personality and how you drive.
that being said, get a car with good mpg for your first car. in my opinion thats what it comes down to. i drove a cavalier as my first car, and now a 540i, and the one thing i miss is getting somewhere around 30mpg.

hope that helps

[youngbimmer]

no way in h e double hockey sticks will i ever buy an american car. way too many bad exp. Parents had a money pit cavalier, cutless ciera, and grand caravan. dad says the camry averages around 24 altogher, around 19/20 in the city. And 635 L6 only came in auto......

My mom is like "ill teach you manual" and my dad is like "its not worth it and im wasting money on buying a new clutch). So gonna check out both the 635 and the 528e. Would cleaning out the fuel injectors and using synthetic oil improve gas mileage?

[j0sh866]

no way in h e double hockey sticks will i ever buy an american car. way too many bad exp. Parents had a money pit cavalier, cutless ciera, and grand caravan. dad says the camry averages around 24 altogher, around 19/20 in the city. And 635 L6 only came in auto......

My mom is like "ill teach you manual" and my dad is like "its not worth it and im wasting money on buying a new clutch). So gonna check out both the 635 and the 528e. Would cleaning out the fuel injectors and using synthetic oil improve gas mileage?

Man, is a few MPG really that big of a deal? Just get what you want, and if you can't afford driving something that gets a tiny bit worse MPG, just ride a bike or walk or something.

[youngbimmer]

not really. guess it all depends on how the user drives and the condition of the car. oh, do they both take regular or premium? I want to keep my transmission and engine in the best condition, so what do you recommend me doing?

[RADI0ACTIV3M4N]

The 528 might feel underpowered compared to the 635 which would get less mpg which is what you are looking for. I get about 20-25 mpg averaged and I spend about 40 bucks to fill up on premium which can last me two weeks of city and highway driving if I make it. I don't think the 6 or the 5 need premium but I would browse those sub forums to be sure. If you are really concerned about mpg, get an e30 318i. I bought one for 600 bucks in running condition and it drove fine and the 4 cylinder got great gas even if you punched it.

[SilverBeam]

i disagree with the guy saying the teenage brain hasnt developed to the ability to assess risks. it really depends on your personality and how you drive.
that being said, get a car with good mpg for your first car. in my opinion thats what it comes down to. i drove a cavalier as my first car, and now a 540i, and the one thing i miss is getting somewhere around 30mpg.

hope that helps

There is nothing to disagree with. It has been proved by a number of different scientific studies.


no way in h e double hockey sticks will i ever buy an american car. way too many bad exp. Parents had a money pit cavalier, cutless ciera, and grand caravan. dad says the camry averages around 24 altogher, around 19/20 in the city. And 635 L6 only came in auto......

My mom is like "ill teach you manual" and my dad is like "its not worth it and im wasting money on buying a new clutch). So gonna check out both the 635 and the 528e. Would cleaning out the fuel injectors and using synthetic oil improve gas mileage?

Think a clutch is expensive, try a transmission. Manual transmissions are more reliable than automatics.

[j0sh866]

not really. guess it all depends on how the user drives and the condition of the car. oh, do they both take regular or premium? I want to keep my transmission and engine in the best condition, so what do you recommend me doing?

They both take regular I'm pretty sure. You should look into an e30 325is or 318is; both would be fun, safe cars. If you really need an airbag, I think 1990-1991 they came with them.


There is nothing to disagree with. It has been proved by a number of different scientific studies.

You cannot say teenagers are unable to assess risk completely. Sure, I believe that they don't assess risk as well as adults, but generalizing all teens into that category just doesn't work.

[Harvester]

You cannot say teenagers are unable to assess risk completely. Sure, I believe that they don't assess risk as well as adults, but generalizing all teens into that category just doesn't work.

I couldn't agree more! I made a lot of stupid choices when I was 16-19 (22 now) but that doesn't mean I thought less about my choices than I do now. I knew I was being stupid and I chose to continue doing the stupid things. By the grace of God I am still here to say that it is not the car that makes people be stupid... it's the people.

I don't think its right to say that medical science has proven that teens cannot make the decisions wisely themselves. Even from a young age children know how to assess a situation and manipulate those around them for their own benefit. You have all seen a toddler throw a tantrum over that toy they want. Yes, there are a lot of airheads in the world that should not drive, but that list includes many more than just teenagers.

I accept responsibility for my actions and I think its time we stop giving people excuses as to why they did something. Everyone is quick to point the finger away from themselves. My parents were excellent driving instructors and I attended a driver's ed school too... still did stupid stuff. My choice, my fault.

Let youngbimmer buy what he will enjoy driving, will not put him in the poor house, and most of all will keep him safe from all the other "raging teenagers" on the road.

[SilverBeam]

They both take regular I'm pretty sure. You should look into an e30 325is or 318is; both would be fun, safe cars. If you really need an airbag, I think 1990-1991 they came with them.



You cannot say teenagers are unable to assess risk completely. Sure, I believe that they don't assess risk as well as adults, but generalizing all teens into that category just doesn't work.

Yes I can because it is fact. It is much more of a generalization for you to say it is wrong because of a few teens that react differently than to admit it is true for the vast majority of teens.

Studies have proven that the prefrontal cortex of the brain, the part that evaluates risk, does not fully develop in humans at 23 for females and 26 for males. Studies have also shown that teens have a much higher amount of activity in the portion of the brain that controls emotion and far less activity in the portion of the brain that evaluates risk.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jerrylarge/2009312466_jdl08.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52687-2005Jan31.html

http://ezinearticles.com/?Risk-In-Teenagers---Why-Do-They-Take-Work,-Driving-And-Life-Risks?--Explanations-Here&id=944972

http://www.examiner.com/x-11284-Seattle-Teen-Issues-Examiner~y2009m6d8-Why-your-teen-is-driving-you-crazy

"The part of the brain that deals with emotions, swells, which makes all teens more sensitive and volatile. At the same time, the prefrontal cortex stops functioning well. That's the part that controls higher functions, like judgment. "

While we are on the topic a new study came out yesterday on the subject that shows that teens who take risk have more mature brains that ones that don't, but there is a disparity in what they think they can do and what they are capable of.

http://www.wsbtv.com/health/20585370/detail.html

[Sokol]

Anyone who used to be a teenager can certainly remember a number of embarrassing (or worse) events that happened because they couldn't discern the proper thing to do. Luckily most people don't have any that were deadly. Just remember that they say hindsight is 20/20 for a reason.

You certainly seem to recognize the responsibility one has when operating a vehicle, which is good. As others have said, you're going to have other responsibility with a used higher-end car, maintenance and paying for it. Look very carefully and take a hard look to see if it's feasible. If it is, then by all means go for it and be happy.

That said, youngbimmer, don't get discouraged if you have to settle for the moment. Time passes quicker than you'd think (or want). I was in a position similar to yours when I was 18, and reality wasn't that friendly. But five years that felt like one later, and I'm in a good enough financial situation to indulge my hobby in the nearish future. If you can't afford it now, stick with what you have and put some money aside. It'll add up quicker than you think.

Good luck!

[Zack01GC]

If I had an E36 M3 when I was 16, even with an auto, I would be dead.

Looking back, slower is more beneficial to a 16 year old. More time to think about upcoming obstacles, and so on. I wanted the fastest car on the block when I turned 16, but I'm glad now that I didn't have one. I've driven everything from a broken D15 Honda Civic with 55 HP to the front wheels, to my misfiring Audi A4 that also had a blown turbo, all the way up to a 2007 BMW M6, and 2006 Saleen S-281E... I've seen from one end of the spectrum to the other - I'm not making these statements based completely on the car I currently own.

youngbimmer - You can always buy a fast car later. Get started with something slow, safe, and all around cheesy. Get a cool/fast car when your driving skills are sharpened, and you've had plenty of on-road experience.

[weedshoes]

go for an e46, OR a vw golf gti mk iv imo is a great first car, feels sporty but isnt "dangerous" fast, its plenty safe and easy to control

[kaiko327]

New to the forum, just read this and wanted to comment.

Im 17 and I admit I can be a stupid driver at times but its my life. Call me a jerk and all BUT if someone else is in the car or if im on a main road or any car/person is visible i will drive cautiously. Highway at night empty....lets see how fast I can go....

Now, also statistically teenagers are involved in more accidents, blah blah blah, but having my motorcycle license and being quite new to it changed my perspective on driving a car soo much. You have no idea how other drivers are going to react. On a motocycle thats scary, in a car...its STILL scary! Even if this kid gets the M3, he has a chance of getting into a crash, but because of ANOTHER driver, he could be completely stopped at a stop sign.

The point is....whatever car you have (unless its a tank, which would be awesome! but not for gas...) is dangerous. The road is a dangerous place, quit hating on the teenagers, they make stupid decisions, but so do the adults, everyone, and anyone can be at fault.


Thats my 2cents.
-Kai

[nighthawk328i]

Personally I do not agree with stereotyping every teenager into the category of unsafe driver. I'm 20 right now. Bought my 328i at the age of 16 and my m3 last summer right after I turned 19. I have never gotten into an accident and been pulled over once, reason being was for a burnt out tail light that happened earlier that night and I hadn't changed it yet. While I do agree that many teenagers out there are very poor drivers. That can be seen in my old high school parking lot everyday. There was probably 3 accidents a month at least because of people not watching where they were going, excessive speeding, etc. I do not dispute that the majority of accidents involve teens, almost all of them due to poor decisions. There are responsible teenagers out there, while rare, it's certainly not fair to those of us who are to stereotype as bad drivers. I understand what you are saying that the brain may not be fully developed, but just because it isn't does not mean teenagers are not capable of making good decisions. A lot of times these things happen because of passengers, trying to show off, etc. As long as you take driving responsibly there is no reason why you couldn't drive a more powerful car at 16. I don't think its a good idea to start with an m3 as a first car, but as I don't truly know the OP, maybe he is one of the safe teenager drivers out there who just wants an m3 to own a piece of history or maybe take it to an autocross/track a few times a year.

[m5touringfan]

I really don't like how people say we cant drive or we will over do it. I've been complemented on my driving all the time. I think it depends on the person. My brother drives an accord (wagon) and a Lexus es300 he drives both like he found the nurburgring (we live in Washington D.C). I know a BMW can save a life if someone stops really fast in front of you wants going to stop first a camry or a m3. i was with moms in her 96 land rover discovery (don't buy one extremely unreliable) and i saw not one but two corollas swirl off the road. it was raining but still. I love the way my 525it 03 stops ( a little better than it acceleration lol). I would say get a none m unless you know you wont over do it like my brother. And to who ever said why if your not going to drive fast. doing the speed limit (25 mph) or what ever it may be in a m3, m5, m6, Bugatti , Ferrari 599, Corvette zr1, Benz c63, Benz e55, Audi rs6, or a Camry which one would put a smile on your face. All but the Camry its not a bad car its just not something a car enthusiast dreams about driving. A car to me is not just how fast it can get from a to be but how it feels from a to b and i love the sounds the 525i makes when i turn the key to off omg i turn it on and off just to hear those electronical sounds. and every one knows about the e46 m3 and its sexy exhaust note(one of a kind) so if you can handle not driving crazy get what ever makes you smile. If you cant just get a smaller engine :) o im 16

[youngbimmer]

well, the aforementioned 6 is out of the question now. The new car in consideration is a white 2004 325i w/black leather inside. Thats probably going to be the one for me, as both parents agree on it. I asked my dad if I could be the 635 on the side later on, and he said yes. So its going to be a 3 for now, but maybe in a year, i can join the big 6 club :D

[87shark]

well, the aforementioned 6 is out of the question now. The new car in consideration is a white 2004 325i w/black leather inside. Thats probably going to be the one for me, as both parents agree on it. I asked my dad if I could be the 635 on the side later on, and he said yes. So its going to be a 3 for now, but maybe in a year, i can join the big 6 club :D

Congrats on the car. The 6's can be a PITA to maintain. I drove one through high school and something was always wrong with it.

[youngbimmer]

not official yet, but almost! Sounded like a really fun car when we test drove it. Out of curiosity, how much does it cost to paint a hood stripe black? The completely white exterior is killing me, but a simple thick black hood strip would solve it. Around how much would it cost?

[jfac12]

not official yet, but almost! Sounded like a really fun car when we test drove it. Out of curiosity, how much does it cost to paint a hood stripe black? The completely white exterior is killing me, but a simple thick black hood strip would solve it. Around how much would it cost?

Srs? :confused

[SilverBeam]

Do the stripe in vinyl. THat way if you change your mind it wouldn't be difficult to take off.

[Chinny4290]

Either. The M3 has too much power and the 6 is too unreliable and doesn't have modern safety equipment.

I'm a teen driving instructor, I see a lot of kids in a lot of different cars. If you have < 10,000 to spend on your first car than I highly recommend you look at the newest Corolla or Camry you can afford. Make sure it has four wheel disk brakes and as many airbags as possible. I'm unaware of how traction control works on those cars, but I think anything you look at for around 10K would have ABS on it.

Or spend a little bit more and get a new Ford Focus with mykey. Ford has done more to help save teen drivers than any other company out there.

Or an old Benz in good condition. :)

I'm not being a fanboy here. It's just me being sensible.

A. It's a Mercedes, they're friggen nice cars. You'll be baller

B. Mercedes has been the leaders in automotive safety ever since the automobile was invented.

C. You can easily find a safe W126 6Cyl, or a W124 or a W201 that will have airbags, and one of the safest chassis (and great driving) in the industry.

D. They are just about as expensive as BMWs to fix or maintain and you can find a really good Benz for less than $5k and use the remainder for incidentals.

E. They are fun cars to drive, very comfortable, very nice driving, and very safe driving.

I bought my first car (yes I did, but through paying my mom back in monthly payments) and it's a W124 E320 Coupe for around $10k. It had 75k miles on it and has been great ever since. Has traction control, passenger and driver airbag, modern seatbelts etc. You cannot go wrong.

I know plenty of people who've bought a 300SE, 300E, 190E for less than 5K and have done nothing but basic maintenance. There are also lots of safety testimonials to occupant safety on the MB forums.

So look into this route. They're a great first car.

[j0sh866]

Or an old Benz in good condition. :)

I'm not being a fanboy here. It's just me being sensible.

A. It's a Mercedes, they're friggen nice cars. You'll be baller

B. Mercedes has been the leaders in automotive safety ever since the automobile was invented.

C. You can easily find a safe W126 6Cyl, or a W124 or a W201 that will have airbags, and one of the safest chassis (and great driving) in the industry.

D. They are just about as expensive as BMWs to fix or maintain and you can find a really good Benz for less than $5k and use the remainder for incidentals.

E. They are fun cars to drive, very comfortable, very nice driving, and very safe driving.

I bought my first car (yes I did, but through paying my mom back in monthly payments) and it's a W124 E320 Coupe for around $10k. It had 75k miles on it and has been great ever since. Has traction control, passenger and driver airbag, modern seatbelts etc. You cannot go wrong.

I know plenty of people who've bought a 300SE, 300E, 190E for less than 5K and have done nothing but basic maintenance. There are also lots of safety testimonials to occupant safety on the MB forums.

So look into this route. They're a great first car.

By looking at your sig, it is safe to assume there is no bias in your statement. :D

[Tatalalicious]

get an e30

[youngbimmer]

Also, i wanted to know what the m-/s+ things are below the D on the transmission shiftor. Didn't want to try without knowing what it was in fear of hurting the car. What does that do? Pretty much the transmission shown on the right in this picture:
http://www.vwofchicagoland.com/shared/photos-2000-bmw-3~series-328ci_2dr_cpe-4849751.html?src=eBay&pid=6

[87shark]

Also, i wanted to know what the m-/s+ things are below the D on the transmission shiftor. Didn't want to try without knowing what it was in fear of hurting the car. What does that do? Pretty much the transmission shown on the right in this picture:
http://www.vwofchicagoland.com/shared/photos-2000-bmw-3~series-328ci_2dr_cpe-4849751.html?src=eBay&pid=6

Its so you can "manually" shift up and down.

[youngbimmer]

without a clutch? :confused

how does that work? Like you literally shift up and down gears without a clutch? If so, thats sweet man! That takes the guessing out of timing the clutch with the shift in manual....... I never got the hang of it lol. But clutchless makes things sweet!:eek:

[geezerman402]

without a clutch? :confused

how does that work? Like you literally shift up and down gears without a clutch? If so, thats sweet man! That takes the fun out of timing the clutch with the shift in manual....... I never got the hang of it lol. But clutchless makes things boring!:eek:

Fix'd

[youngbimmer]

not fixed! I kept stalling the car (an old bmw i found), and nobody would teach me manual so i gave up :(

[geezerman402]

not fixed! I kept stalling the car (an old bmw i found), and nobody would teach me manual so i gave up :(

Find a $100 hunk of junk car and learn it yourself. Or hijack a friend's ride.

My father taught himself in a van, I'm sure you could do it.

[JeffroGymnast]

SilverBeam is on the right track. I'm only 17, meaning I am part of those statistics. I've taken two courses (teen smart i think the first one was called, and just recently took alive at 25) because i didn't/don't want to become part of the vast majority of teens that end up in wrecks in their first few years of driving. Sure, my risk of getting in a wreck is probably lower now, but i am still at such a high risk of getting in a crash that it scares me to think about it sometimes. All you can do is be as safe as you can, especially when you have that urge to punch it or take that next curve a little faster. It's very true that teens just don't have part of the brain development that is needed for good decision-making. even with the smaller 6 cylinder in my car, i have more than plenty of power for what i need so there's no way you need an M3 at your age. It is much more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow (which will turn into driving a fast car fast....= tickets). RWD can also get you into a LOT more trouble than FWD or AWD if you do not know what you are doing or are not paying full attention in the wet. I am glad that i have my bimmer, but i would say that i am definitely not going to be letting any future son drive such a car when they are 16. I learned eventually what can happen when you drive like i used to, and thank god i never lost control. A few more months of that and i guarantee i'd have gotten in some trouble. Some guys just have too much of a need for speed and it kills, just look at the statistics. its much more safe to drive something more learner friendly until you get out of high school.

I say go for a 318i, those cars can be made to handle very well and they make enough power for whatever you need on the highway. You may not like the looks of the e36 now, but it will grow on you. Go find one on a used lot somewhere and test drive it, i bet you will like it. this has been said by someone else, but why do you want an m3 if the most performance driving you do is accelerating from a stop light? just my two cents.

[j0sh866]

SilverBeam is on the right track. I'm only 17, meaning I am part of those statistics. I've taken two courses (teen smart i think the first one was called, and just recently took alive at 25) because i didn't/don't want to become part of the vast majority of teens that end up in wrecks in their first few years of driving. Sure, my risk of getting in a wreck is probably lower now, but i am still at such a high risk of getting in a crash that it scares me to think about it sometimes. All you can do is be as safe as you can, especially when you have that urge to punch it or take that next curve a little faster. It's very true that teens just don't have part of the brain development that is needed for good decision-making. even with the smaller 6 cylinder in my car, i have more than plenty of power for what i need so there's no way you need an M3 at your age. It is much more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow (which will turn into driving a fast car fast....= tickets). RWD can also get you into a LOT more trouble than FWD or AWD if you do not know what you are doing or are not paying full attention in the wet. I am glad that i have my bimmer, but i would say that i am definitely not going to be letting any future son drive such a car when they are 16. I learned eventually what can happen when you drive like i used to, and thank god i never lost control. A few more months of that and i guarantee i'd have gotten in some trouble. Some guys just have too much of a need for speed and it kills, just look at the statistics. its much more safe to drive something more learner friendly until you get out of high school.

I say go for a 318i, those cars can be made to handle very well and they make enough power for whatever you need on the highway. You may not like the looks of the e36 now, but it will grow on you. Go find one on a used lot somewhere and test drive it, i bet you will like it. this has been said by someone else, but why do you want an m3 if the most performance driving you do is accelerating from a stop light? just my two cents.

It's kind of funny that you are recommending a slower car to him than you yourself have, and after saying all of that you still have a wtb in your sig for performance enhancing parts for your 323i which has " more than plenty of power for what i need." But it's cool because you are from Santa Rosa and I'm from Petaluma... Want to buy some parts from me? :shifty

[AndrewH]

Either. The M3 has too much power and the 6 is too unreliable and doesn't have modern safety equipment.

I'm a teen driving instructor, I see a lot of kids in a lot of different cars. If you have < 10,000 to spend on your first car than I highly recommend you look at the newest Corolla or Camry you can afford. Make sure it has four wheel disk brakes and as many airbags as possible. I'm unaware of how traction control works on those cars, but I think anything you look at for around 10K would have ABS on it.

Or spend a little bit more and get a new Ford Focus with mykey. Ford has done more to help save teen drivers than any other company out there.

:rolleyes

[pioneerniles]

BMW's are awesome cars, hands down! I have a 1995 325i auto (first car), its the safest car I've seen. I got side swiped on the highway a few months ago driving a little quicker then I should have been going, I was fine, the car was fine except for minor paint damage and a small dent. Other cars if a shopping cart hit them they practically blow up. Winter driving is awesome with RWD. Just make sure to get some good winter tires and the first time it snows go to a empty parking lot and find out how the car handles. Once you learn RWD and how it handles in the snow you will prefer it and agree its many times safer then FWD.

They can be more to fix but thats because generally we beat the life out of them. "Corner!, lets see how fast I can go around without tipping!" I recently bought my second car, a 1998 Mercedes C280 with a 120,000km, it needs a rebuild of the engine. Buy a BMW! I have 275,000km on the BMW and its strong, you can not kill that engine unless it overheats. Your M3 is an e36, same as my 325i just a different engine and a few other things. Go for that one, but the price seems far to high. I live in a BMW innorant town and the few times that M3's have been for sale here they were a lot less. I would also recommend an e46, any year but 1999. That was the car I wanted before the Mercedes, but Benz's are cheaper, and not just in money. Have fun and drive safe! :redspot

Matthew

[JeffroGymnast]

Josh, i'll look you up if i am ever in the need :)

little mods here and there do a lot to keep driving a fun experience, wouldnt you agree? There's really nothing else I'd rather spend money on anyways at this point besides my car, and being stock still its hardly much.

[Cheese Dog]

Relatively speaking, no, the M3 doesn't have too much power. Especially when it's an automatic convertible.

But, as a very new driver, then yes, it may be a little much for you. If your heart is set on a BMW I'd recommend a 318ti Sport Package or at most a 325i/325is.

For my very first car, I'd stay as far away as possible from that old 6-series.

Whatever car you choose though, just please be very careful. Nobody likes a speed demon on the road.


*Edit*


Also, when considering a daily driver vehicle, the absolute most important thing to me is SAFETY. Please keep that in mind. Really and truly it's the most important thing on a car no matter what your emotions might be telling you (speed, styling, etc.).

[dRock13]

If I had an E36 M3 when I was 16, even with an auto, I would be dead.
I wanted the fastest car on the block when I turned 16,

I had the fastest car on the block when i was 15 - 16.. still have it.

I have never been pulled over, only for the cop to say nice car :rolleyes

[JeffroGymnast]

I had the fastest car on the block when i was 15 - 16.. still have it.

I have never been pulled over, only for the cop to say nice car :rolleyes

Not being pulled over has nothing to do with driving safely... You could have driven like a jackass the whole time and just gotten lucky.

[globalsunset]

Man up.
Buy a Ferrari.
:shifty

[993 911]

Have you taken a look at street bikes yet?

[GR330ZHP]

My take: When I was 16 I bought an Audi A4 with all my own money. The car had planty of speed, but I never got a ticket or did anything really stupid. Hah I was more afraid of crashing my beautiful A4 than anything :)

But it all depends how stupid you want to be as a driver. I have driven many high performance cars, and have never had an accident or ticket. It all depends on whether you can control yourself or not, all cars can get you into danger, all cars can do 100 pretty easily nowadays.

If I were you, personally, I would not get neither of the cars mentioned. First of all, they are both automatics which takes the whole fun experience out of them. For the L6, the M30 is a bulletproof engine, but that is an over 20 year old car and will definitly need money to be put into it. The M3, is expensive to fix when something does go wrong. Plus insurance costs on a 16 year old with an M3 are probably going to be pretty outrageous

With that said, if I were you, I would get a manual, if you want because it helps you become a better driver, it lasts a while longer and is soo much more fun. Then I would still get something European but focus on the lower end

Cars I would say to look at:

E30 3 series- I know you can spend more so buy an E30, for cheap and dump money into it, you can have arguably the best BMW out there :)

E36 318/325- earlier models which are cheaper. They are very fun, handle great, just great cars, safe, luxury and can be found for little money now.

Merc 190E- classy, you can get a manual, reliable, ABS

Mk4 VW GTI/Golf/Jetta- Either a VR6 or 2.0: Fun, many options, quick enough, stylish, good handling, great gas mileage, not too bad on insurance

B5 Audi A4 2.8- like I said it was my first car, I loved it. It was extremely reliable, I had it for about 50k miles and my sister has had it since and she has put miles on it too, and it is amazing. Plenty of luxury, safety, speed, handling cheap enough now and look beautiful..idk maybe thats just my opinion...

Idk this is what I would look at if I were you, and focus on a manual :dunno

[SilverBeam]

Have you taken a look at street bikes yet?

Not a smart idea for a new driver. There is a lot more you need to pay attention to and you aren't surrounded by steal that protects you if you mess up.

[j0sh866]

Not a smart idea for a new driver. There is a lot more you need to pay attention to and you aren't surrounded by steal that protects you if you mess up.

I think he was being sarcastic haha.

[SilverBeam]

I think he was being sarcastic haha.

Maybe, sarcasm doesn't translate well into text.

[j0sh866]

Maybe, sarcasm doesn't translate well into text.

True, if he wasn't being sarcastic I agree on a street bike being a very bad idea for a young driver.