2000 Miles CHEAPO ATF update

[quickjoe1961]

2000 miles after fluid atf change with "middle of the road" valvoline max life atf from walmart for $3/qt and febi atf filter, the AT shift A LOT better, smoth and fast shift like i don't remember. I was driving a 525i with a little over a 100k and differnce is very significant (my tranny shifts a lot better). Hopefully i will get another 100k out of the transmission, but so far it looks that fairy tales about non-esso oil in high mileage trannies is all nonsense. Just wanted to give an update.

[NNY528I]

I would not call 2000 miles any kind of significant evaluation of the worthyness of any fluid in an automatic transmission. I would most certainly not be in here thumbing my nose at people either.

No-one said your transmission would explode the minute you changed out the fluid. Come back in 20000 miles then perhaps you might have something to share.

[Ned Ryerson]

Hope it works out for you. AT's seems to come apart fast if they're not happy, 2K isn't 100K, but you may be in good shape!

[e39dream]

what year and model e39 are we talking here people?

put your car model in your user details where it belongs, like a good forum user.

[quickjoe1961]

I would not call 2000 miles any kind of significant evaluation of the worthyness of any fluid in an automatic transmission. I would most certainly not be in here thumbing my nose at people either.

No-one said your transmission would explode the minute you changed out the fluid. Come back in 20000 miles then perhaps you might have something to share.

This post was certainly to people like you. And the response i got was the response i expected. Some people just can't be happy for themselves or for others. Even if i made another 200k miles you would say the same thing. Them bottom line is at least i know what kind of mentality im dealing with.

[ArmySweitzer]

i understand what your saying, theres a lot of non oem hating on this forum. People will always point and laugh at people not using oem components some for good reason but there are a ton of myths out there as well.

I do agree that you should post back with a few more miles on the fluid but props for the change!

[cnn]

Good post.

If BMW sells gasoline then people say use bmw gasoline only....LOL.

Anyway, I am a generic guy and have been doing this for all my bimmers during the last 20 years, not a single problem:
1. Brake Fluid: Valvoline Synthetic DOT 4
2. Coolant: Prestone Antifreeze...works great
3. Valvoline Maxlife ATF in all my cars from bimmer, Honda, Toyota, Volvo, not a single problem.
4. Engine Oil: conventional 5W30 or 10W30.

There is too much hype with the fluids in the car business lately.....

I save the money for my kids education...haha...:)

[quickjoe1961]

Hope it works out for you. AT's seems to come apart fast if they're not happy, 2K isn't 100K, but you may be in good shape!

Thanks. I called up an old buddy of mine that specializes in ZF transmissions, i guess i should have called him before eh ?, Anyway he was definitely not happy with red color of atf. He said esso should be used because if something goes wrong it takes that problem out of the equation. I did tell him I did close to 2k miles at this time and he said no to bother changing it at this point, if there would be a problem i would experince it by now. More importantly he said, the problem with high mileage trannys , ZF 5HP-19, in this case is that, especially in low-temp, the filter/screen gets clogged and flow of atf is restricted. Therefore it is more important on high mileage to replace the filter than the fluid itself. Also he called it an nonse that putting new fluid in tranny could damage it in anyway what-so-ever.(refering to esso and 5hp tranny's at least)

Edito: I forgot to mention, he claims they get ESSO Lt 71141 for $5/qt. I dealer ripping everyone off ?

[e39dream]

what kind of e39 do you have for the 2nd time? jesus.

[Jason5driver]

Reference Riro424's ATF DIY:
He used Valvoline Max Life!
IMO, I think the Valvoline ATF is a very good ATF.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260725

Thanks!
Jason

[quickjoe1961]

Reference Riro424's ATF DIY:
He used Valvoline Max Life!
IMO, I think the Valvoline ATF is a very good ATF.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260725

Thanks!
Jason

Well he said that at 2k it makes no differnce, its just that he runs a tranny shop. They work some times on 10 trannies a week, some times from people that like DIY, you must know what his thoughts are on DIY ? Can you imagine the type of stuff he saw over the years, cluster%ucks? Hehe btw thats the diy i followed and atf used.


what kind of e39 do you have for the 2nd time? jesus.

Don't get so excited. I have the e399.
Don't Take the Lord's Name in Vain (http://www.scribd.com/doc/3097145/Dont-Take-the-Lords-Name-in-Vain)

[Jason5driver]

Well he said that at 2k it makes no differnce, its just that he runs a tranny shop. They work some times on 10 trannies a week, some times from people that like DIY, you must know what his thoughts are on DIY ? Can you imagine the type of stuff he saw over the years, cluster%ucks? Hehe btw thats the diy i followed and atf used.



Don't get so excited. I have the e399.


Roger that!
I recognize your user name from my ATF thread...
LOL!

Also, you better answer E39dream's question...

What is the year and model of your car?

[quickjoe1961]

Reference Riro424's ATF DIY:
He used Valvoline Max Life!
IMO, I think the Valvoline ATF is a very good ATF.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260725

Thanks!
Jason

At $3/qt you can't beat it.


Roger that!
I recognize your user name from my ATF thread...
LOL!

Also, you better answer E39dream's question...

What is the year and model of your car?

Fixed. Done. Its finished.

[BKphoto]

2000 miles after fluid atf change with "middle of the road" valvoline max life atf from walmart for $3/qt and febi atf filter, the AT shift A LOT better, smoth and fast shift like i don't remember. I was driving a 525i with a little over a 100k and differnce is very significant (my tranny shifts a lot better). Hopefully i will get another 100k out of the transmission, but so far it looks that fairy tales about non-esso oil in high mileage trannies is all nonsense. Just wanted to give an update.



why, in the world, would anyone risk a huge expense (like replacing a tranny) to save a hundred bucks...? This is IDIOTIC...

[Jason5driver]

At $3/qt you can't beat it.



Fixed. Done. Its finished.


No it is not...

Again, what model do you have? 525i, 530i....
What year? 2001, 2002, .....

[quickjoe1961]

why, in the world, would anyone risk a huge expense (like replacing a tranny) to save a hundred bucks...? This is IDIOTIC...

Why would anyone believe the Dealership ? That is beyond IDIOTIC. ESPECIALLY THAT PEOPLE THAT TELL YOU WHAT TO DO AT BMW ARE SERVICE REP, MECHANIC, MANAGER, GUESS WHAT ? NONE OF THEM NOT EVEN BMW ENGINEERS BUILD THE THING OR REPAIRED IT EVER. WHY WOULD YOU LISTEN TO THEM? THIS IS IDIOTIC.


No it is not...

Again, what model do you have? 525i, 530i....
What year? 2001, 2002, .....
it says it right there 530i 02

[BKphoto]

well, i've owned 5 Bimmers and have never stepped foot in a dealership...my point, since i guess i have to say it again is, why risk it...? what point are you trying to make...? "hey i put another fluid in my tranny" who cares, you showed them...

I look at it this way, a car is a big investment, why not take care of it, go the extra mile... when you are halfway to florida with your family in the car would be a bad time for your tranny to go "PUKE"...Then you turn to your wife and say "but honey i saved a hundred bucks"

maybe it won't happen, but you have left the door open for it to...

good luck...

[teedub21]

Not sure what BKphoto is getting at. Just because it isn't Esso doesn't mean it wont work. A lot of aftermarket brands are now rated as a replacement for the Esso fluid. I bought Some Amsoil ATF fluid a while back to flush my power steering and sure enough, right on the back the Esso fluid was listed as one that the Amsoil replaces.

As far as the tranny "puking" on a long family trip. I think it is a serious possibility anywhere after 100k miles whether you've replaced the fluid or not.

[e39dream]

ok, so now we know you have a ZF trans rather than a GM unit. that is why we needed to know the model and year.

I run "cheap" fluid in my silver 528i with general motors trans, but it is still the right stuff for the job.

good luck with it- I hope that it serves you well. Of all the trans failures I read about the 530i does not come up much.

[BKphoto]

Not sure what BKphoto is getting at.


why, is what i'm getting at....what is the benefit...?

[PJB]

what kind of e39 do you have for the 2nd time? jesus.

Jesus drives an e39!??

[Jason5driver]

Jesus drives an e39!??
LOL!
:lol
Purely Awesome!
Quote of the day!

Thanks!

[quickjoe1961]

why, is what i'm getting at....what is the benefit...?


Haha

12qt * 27 = 324
12qt * 3 = 36
----------------
$288 i guess ? That is pre-tax.

Got my thrust arm bushing, steering rack boots, a news set of tools and if i chip in $20 i will get a set of front pads and rotors from jared, for free sort of speak ? I guess that is it ? That is what im gettting at. I bought the car back in 05 when it was 3 years old. This is the first major maintence i do since then.

[eugenecp]

LOL!
:lol
Purely Awesome!
Quote of the day!

Thanks!

+1 :lol

[e39dream]

Jesus drives an e39!??

no. Jesus built my e39 though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1rrMy1MjWA

[Redflea]

I'm generally on the side of believing that it's not worth saving the $. Even if using cheaper fluids doesn't make a big difference in most cases, it's just not worth it to me to do that in an area that is very expensive to fix.

That's just how I feel...but I'm very risk-averse when it comes to my transmission.

I do think it's great that others who are trying alternatives are reporting results, and folks should be open to hearing what they have to say, though 2K miles isn't much in terms of time on the new fluid...

[BKphoto]

Haha

12qt * 27 = 324
12qt * 3 = 36
----------------
$288 i guess ? That is pre-tax.

Got my thrust arm bushing, steering rack boots, a news set of tools and if i chip in $20 i will get a set of front pads and rotors from jared, for free sort of speak ? I guess that is it ? That is what im gettting at. I bought the car back in 05 when it was 3 years old. This is the first major maintence i do since then.


hahaha, well, if 288 bucks scares you good luck...

[quickjoe1961]

hahaha, well, if 288 bucks scares you good luck...

Scares ? You are not making much sense. I paid over 27k for the car, i sure can afford 300 for the fluid if i wanted too if thats what you are getting at. I'm just tired of people that haven't done something telling others that it is no good.

[ArmySweitzer]

scares ? You are not making much sense. I paid over 27k for the car, i sure can afford 300 for the fluid if i wanted too if thats what you are getting at. I'm just tired of people that haven't done something telling others that it is no good.

+2934723947324872394723749234327492374932749237432 857345317497324324

x2

[teedub21]

why, is what i'm getting at....what is the benefit...?
Well, for one thing, Mobil 1 or Amsoil may very well be better than the Esso. It is less expensive than buying it at the dealer. If BMW only recommended Shell 5-30 synthetic oil, is that all you'd use, even if Valvoline made the same oil and it was easier to get and a buck cheaper a liter? I'm just saying that Esso doesn't have magic fairy dust in it. Other manufacturers are making atf that is a suitable replacement for the Esso stuff.

[quickjoe1961]

Well, for one thing, Mobil 1 or Amsoil may very well be better than the Esso. It is less expensive than buying it at the dealer. If BMW only recommended Shell 5-30 synthetic oil, is that all you'd use, even if Valvoline made the same oil and it was easier to get and a buck cheaper a liter? I'm just saying that Esso doesn't have magic fairy dust in it. Other manufacturers are making atf that is a suitable replacement for the Esso stuff.

Esso doesn't have the magical longevity super crystal ? Dude, what a drag...

[NNY528I]

This post was certainly to people like you. And the response i got was the response i expected. Some people just can't be happy for themselves or for others. Even if i made another 200k miles you would say the same thing. Them bottom line is at least i know what kind of mentality im dealing with.


Whoa What with all the nasty attitude, You came in here and stated;



"... but so far it looks that fairy tales about non-esso oil in high mileage trannies is all nonsense. Just wanted to give an update.


Where I come from this is a rude way to address other peoples opinions and discussions.

My point to you was that 2000 miles is a blip on the radar in the life of an automatic transmission thus making a grand statement about "fairy tails" and that they are "Nonsense" is a rather presumptive.

If the new fluid you put in is causing 25% more wear to the clutch packs due to having a different additive blend then just based on the potential lifetime of said clutches you might not see a failure due to excess wear for anywhere from 12000 to 25000 miles. So if you are still running strong in 30000 to 50000 miles THEN you might be able to make a statement questioning the efficacy of both BMW AND ZF themselves(who specifically stated that the life time of the tranmission required the use of the specified ESSO synthetic fluid), Thats not some yahoo service advisor, thats the people who engineered and built the transmission saying that.

Its as likely that you could fill the transmission with Power steering fluid and it would function fine for the first 5000 miles before it nukes it self.

You are making some rather rude comments about me and about my mentality which you simply cannot back up. For someone with 79 whole posts you are throwing a lot of attitude around at people who have been here a lot longer than you have. I have no problem with using alternative sources and aftermarket parts on my vehicles, if I can get it someplace else I will. You are making an assumption that I am some sort of elitist or something and that is simply wrong and I really dont appreciate the comments.

[BKphoto]

Well, for one thing, Mobil 1 or Amsoil may very well be better than the Esso. It is less expensive than buying it at the dealer. If BMW only recommended Shell 5-30 synthetic oil, is that all you'd use, even if Valvoline made the same oil and it was easier to get and a buck cheaper a liter? I'm just saying that Esso doesn't have magic fairy dust in it. Other manufacturers are making atf that is a suitable replacement for the Esso stuff.


go crazy, good luck...so when you drain the pan you get what 4 to 5 litres out...? then you are going to mix 2 different kinds of fluid....hahaha, thats a great idea...


I'm just tired of people that haven't done something telling others that it is no good.


i haven't jumped off the brooklyn bridge but i can imagine

"that it is no good"

[quickjoe1961]

My point to you was that 2000 miles is a blip on the radar in the life of an automatic transmission thus making a grand statement about "fairy tails" and that they are "Nonsense" is a rather presumptive.

As verified by my friend from tranny shop, i was correct in assessing that.


If the new fluid you put in is causing 25% more wear to the clutch packs due to having a different additive blend then just based on the potential lifetime of said clutches you might not see a failure due to excess wear for anywhere from 12000 to 25000 miles. So if you are still running strong in 30000 to 50000 miles THEN you might be able to make a statement questioning the efficacy of both BMW AND ZF themselves(who specifically stated that the life time of the tranmission required the use of the specified ESSO synthetic fluid), Thats not some yahoo service advisor, thats the people who engineered and built the transmission saying that.

If, if, if, if, well i did. I didn't "if changed" or "if not changed" Are you referrinf to the same people that made the radiator, leaking power steering hoses, final stage resistor.. ohhh yeah those people, believe what they say as it is the same as bible.... remember that next time someone writes on the board, my radiator blow up just remind them that bmw did that "specifically" haha


Its as likely that you could fill the transmission with Power steering fluid and it would function fine for the first 5000 miles before it nukes it self.

And you know that it was the fluid because ?

You are making some rather rude comments about me and about my mentality which you simply cannot back up. For someone with 79 whole posts you are throwing a lot of attitude around at people who have been here a lot longer than you have. I have no problem with using alternative sources and aftermarket parts on my vehicles, if I can get it someplace else I will. You are making an assumption that I am some sort of elitist or something and that is simply wrong and I really dont appreciate the comments.

I so can back it up, most people on this forum if not all DONT USE esso bullcrap or stick with lifetime attitude and guess what their shit is not blowing up all the time. If fluid is compatible that means that its chemical make up meats or exceeds manf. standards. I have front and rear REYBESTOS pads, paid full $90, yes they keep my rims nice and dirty but i managed so far to do 35k + and it looks like they will handle another 15k.

I swear i so hoped that you will this line of argumentation.
LIFETIME FLUID CLAIM = RADIATOR QUALITY

If you believe one, you must believe the other.


go crazy, good luck...so when you drain the pan you get what 4 to 5 litres out...? then you are going to mix 2 different kinds of fluid....hahaha, thats a great idea...




i haven't jumped off the brooklyn bridge but i can imagine

"that it is no good"

I love when someone who is layman (me) says noticed improvement, i verfied it by a tranny tech, and then experts take the stand say i'm wrong. I love it guys.

[BKphoto]

no one cares...the point is you come on here and state that ZF and BMW are full of $hit, and 2000 miles proves everyone wrong...

[quickjoe1961]

no one cares...the point is you come on here and state that ZF and BMW are full of , and 2000 miles proves everyone wrong...

The point is you will go and buy the same stuff like everyone else for more because if ideology.... So go buy another behr radiator.. not to mention new bimmers(2006 bmw 530i, i was quote over the phone $160 for a flush, no filter change ) have 100k atf replacement interval i guess the esso they make these days is just not the same.... and 5HP is superior to 6HP. Hmmm these guys at bmw and zf must be going backwards... e.o.t. for me.

[teedub21]

I don't know what all the arguing is about anyway. This has been discussed ad naseum. It is already known that Esso isn't the only fluid you can use. No need to name call. We already know you don't have to use Esso brand. What still is not known is whether changing the fluid will extend the life, shorten the life, or has no effect. Many have already reported that the shifts seem smoother.

[BKphoto]

The point is you will go and buy the same stuff like everyone else for more because if ideology.... So go buy another behr radiator.. not to mention new bimmers(2006 bmw 530i, i was quote over the phone $160 for a flush, no filter change ) have 100k atf replacement interval i guess the esso they make these days is just not the same.... and 5HP is superior to 6HP. Hmmm these guys at bmw and zf must be going backwards... e.o.t. for me.


all-righty-then...i'm glad you are here to straighten us all out...

[Madtown]

I researched this topic to death as car just hit 100K. Lucky for me I work at a Acura dealership which also has a VW dealership next door. I know some of the techs & they had bunch of leftover VW/Audi/Esso ATF that I bought from them for $25 LOL. Got the filter for dealer cost as the BMW dealership is same company that I work for.

Anyway I think changing it with new fluid be it Esso or what ever is better than nothing. The filter is more important I think than what brand of fluid is used IMHO.

BTW I would have payed for Esso if I didnt get it so cheap anyway.

[Black 5]

If, if, if, if, well i did. I didn't "if changed" or "if not changed" Are you referrinf to the same people that made the radiator, leaking power steering hoses, final stage resistor.. ohhh yeah those people, believe what they say as it is the same as bible.... remember that next time someone writes on the board, my radiator blow up just remind them that bmw did that "specifically" haha

I so can back it up, most people on this forum if not all DONT USE esso bullcrap or stick with lifetime attitude and guess what their shit is not blowing up all the time. If fluid is compatible that means that its chemical make up meats or exceeds manf. standards. I have front and rear REYBESTOS pads, paid full $90, yes they keep my rims nice and dirty but i managed so far to do 35k + and it looks like they will handle another 15k.

I swear i so hoped that you will this line of argumentation.
LIFETIME FLUID CLAIM = RADIATOR QUALITY


I used Babel Fish and google translator and still can't make any sense of this. Can someone translate this into English please...

[Madtown]

I used Babel Fish and google translator and still can't make any sense of this. Can someone translate this into English please...

LOL, some peoples english on this site is worse than Japans engrish.

[cnn]

The Bible Chart is attached (LOL). Make sure you drink the Holy Oil....(joke).

Alternative is ATF for VW/Audi part # G-052-162-A2 (Esso LT 71141):
Pentosin: $11.00/L
To get this product go to:
http://www.worldimpex.com/
and type in the VW/Audi part number(G-052-162-A2)in the search box and the products will come up.
You can buy 12 liters of the Pentosin (German) (product label states this as a direct substitute for LT 71141 and is a light brown oil color). Shipping was reasonable at only $8.00 for the whole box (this will probably be variable depending on distance of delivery).

Or Google G-052-162-A2.

[cnn]

FWIW:

Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is also suitable for use in vehicles that specify the following fluid requirements:

Audi G 052 025-A2, G 052 162-A1
BMW LA2634
Esso LT 71141
ETL-7045E, ETL-8072B, N402
Ford* MERCON*, MERCON V, MERCON LV
All 2005 and earlier GM vehicles**
Honda ATF-Z1*
Hyundai SP-II, SP-III
Idemitsu K17
JWS 3309
Kia SP-II, SP-III
MAN 339F, V1, V2, Z1, Z2, Z3
Mazda ATF-III, ATF-MV
Mercedes-Benz 236.1, 236.2, 236.5, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9
Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II, SP-III
Nissan Matic-D, Matic-J, Matic-K
Subaru ATF
Toyota T-III, T-IV
Voith 55.6335.XX (G607, G1363),
Volvo 97340
ZF TE-ML 03D, 04D, 09, 14A, 14B, 16L, 17C

[BKphoto]

yes, but the issue (that has been beaten to death) is mixing 2 different fluids...when you drain the pan you get maybe 1/2...so if the 2 fluids play well together than fine, if they don't you may have troubles...

[Jason5driver]

yes, but the issue (that has been beaten to death) is mixing 2 different fluids...when you drain the pan you get maybe 1/2...so if the 2 fluids play well together than fine, if they don't you may have troubles...

That is why you use a compatible ATF.
And, you make sure you drain/ replace the ATF at least twice.

Comprende'?

[BKphoto]

hahaha....refilling twice, now how much are you saving by using a cheaper fluid...? again, makes no sense...

[Jason5driver]

hahaha....refilling twice, now how much are you saving by using a cheaper fluid...? again, makes no sense...

For some one that has seen this topic beaten to death, you sure don't understand the concept of replacing the ATF...
LOL!

If one was to use Esso LT 71141, that person would have to drain and re-fill the ATF at least twice as well.
It is the normal procedure, due to not being able to drain all of the fluid out of the torque converter.

Unless, you ran new ATF through an intake cooler line, while draining the old ATF, while the engine was running, which in essence, would be a flush.

[Gopher2k]

I'm not an oil guru by any means, but am at 85k and contemplating an ATF drain and fill for my 2003 540i.

What do you guys think of fluids such as Amsoil (Reputation for being some of the best lube in the business) Universal ATF that markets itself as being a direct Esso replacement?

To a layperson like me, that says that along with meeting all the dex iii specs, it will have the proper additives to ensure optimal wear.

I'm probably going to just use Esso, but I wonder if the Amsoil could be technically superior.

[Jason5driver]

I'm not an oil guru by any means, but am at 85k and contemplating an ATF drain and fill for my 2003 540i.

What do you guys think of fluids such as Amsoil (Reputation for being some of the best lube in the business) Universal ATF that markets itself as being a direct Esso replacement?

To a layperson like me, that says that along with meeting all the dex iii specs, it will have the proper additives to ensure optimal wear.

I'm probably going to just use Esso, but I wonder if the Amsoil could be technically superior.

LOL!
Talk to Jared.
Ask him the same question...
Also talk to BimmerFiver....
I have a feeling of what they are going to tell you....
LOL!

[Madtown]

I'm not an oil guru by any means, but am at 85k and contemplating an ATF drain and fill for my 2003 540i.

What do you guys think of fluids such as Amsoil (Reputation for being some of the best lube in the business) Universal ATF that markets itself as being a direct Esso replacement?

To a layperson like me, that says that along with meeting all the dex iii specs, it will have the proper additives to ensure optimal wear.

I'm probably going to just use Esso, but I wonder if the Amsoil could be technically superior.

Pretty sure its been used with no issues.

[gtxragtop]

To each his own. This is essentially another oil thread. For me, I'm sticking with the ESSO fluid. $16 at Bavauto. Not worth 2'nd guessing ZF.

[quickjoe1961]

Update, 3k and running smoother every passing mile.

[BKphoto]

To each his own. This is essentially another oil thread. For me, I'm sticking with the ESSO fluid. $16 at Bavauto. Not worth 2'nd guessing ZF.


get it at a VW dealership, same stuff, its around 10 bucks...


Update, 3k and running smoother every passing mile.

no one cares...

[Redflea]

get it at a VW dealership, same stuff, its around 10 bucks...


What do you mean by this...what do they sell that is the same thing as the Esso ATF from Bavauto? Can you explain a little more?

[Doru]

What do you mean by this...what do they sell that is the same thing as the Esso ATF from Bavauto? Can you explain a little more?

Red, Pentosin = Esso (one of them previous posts. Also, it was mentioned that it was :deadhorse:in sooo many other threads. If you search....)

Cheers

[ViolinARC]

Whoa What with all the nasty attitude, You came in here and stated;





Where I come from this is a rude way to address other peoples opinions and discussions.

My point to you was that 2000 miles is a blip on the radar in the life of an automatic transmission thus making a grand statement about "fairy tails" and that they are "Nonsense" is a rather presumptive.

If the new fluid you put in is causing 25% more wear to the clutch packs due to having a different additive blend then just based on the potential lifetime of said clutches you might not see a failure due to excess wear for anywhere from 12000 to 25000 miles. So if you are still running strong in 30000 to 50000 miles THEN you might be able to make a statement questioning the efficacy of both BMW AND ZF themselves(who specifically stated that the life time of the tranmission required the use of the specified ESSO synthetic fluid), Thats not some yahoo service advisor, thats the people who engineered and built the transmission saying that.

Its as likely that you could fill the transmission with Power steering fluid and it would function fine for the first 5000 miles before it nukes it self.

You are making some rather rude comments about me and about my mentality which you simply cannot back up. For someone with 79 whole posts you are throwing a lot of attitude around at people who have been here a lot longer than you have. I have no problem with using alternative sources and aftermarket parts on my vehicles, if I can get it someplace else I will. You are making an assumption that I am some sort of elitist or something and that is simply wrong and I really dont appreciate the comments.

Hey...I thought you were from NY?!? Whadya mean "rude"? Isn't that the NY legacy? LOL J/k, i've heard so many nasty stories about New Yorkers being rude but have not had that experience...personally.

Remember that you are trying to reason with someone who states that it is foolish to listen to anyone at a stealership but listens to his "friend" who runs a tranny shop! What kind of logic is that? I've been ripped off by a couple independent tranny repair facilities so his staements don't make too much sense to me.

I agree that 2k is merely a blip on the lifetime of our trannys and that the additional wear and tear (unless the fluid has the exact same specs) will show up over a longer period of time. It's your dime so I'm not gonna complain if you have to spend it a million times just to save a couple bucks. My buddy used to waste time, fuel and money driving around town to save a penny at the pump. Save $0.15 but drive 10 miles and spend half an hour looking at other station prices...what kind of logic is that?

I'm getting ready to do a fluid/filter change cause I'm at 120k on my "lifetime" fluid. My local Indy (Bavarian Professionals) showed me his fluid change including analysis and it took FIVE changes to get about 90% of the old fluid out. He didn't recommend his shop but recommended that I DIY (honest Joe IMO). He said to change it at least two times to "freshen" up the old fluid. He did clearly state that three would be better but to wait 'til the second or third change before doing the filter. He also recommended using lower cost (but high quality) ATF with BMW specs (didn't "push" any particular brand though).

All I can say is keep us posted and GL experimenting with your highly sensitive performance machine...I know I enjoy it. LOL


Update, 3k and running smoother every passing mile.

Must be that thin, cheap fluid you put in there not bogging down the shifting components...LMAO! Just j/king...

[Redflea]

Red, Pentosin = Esso (one of them previous posts. Also, it was mentioned that it was :deadhorse:in sooo many other threads. If you search....)

Cheers

Thanks...my not so clear question was what does VW call the stuff that is the Esso equivalent?

[Madtown]

Thanks...my not so clear question was what does VW call the stuff that is the Esso equivalent?

VW/Audi part # G-052-162-A2

[Redflea]

VW/Audi part # G-052-162-A2

Gracias...initial searching didn't find it online any much cheaper than the Esso.

[teedub21]

no one cares...
I care. Keep us posted as most all of our transmissions are reaching the maintenance/replacement point.

[NNY528I]

I care. Keep us posted as most all of our transmissions are reaching the maintenance/replacement point.

Then perhaps captain cheapo and yourself could carry on your useless updates through PMs then come back when he gets to 50k miles and give us all an update.

[teedub21]

Then perhaps captain cheapo and yourself could carry on your useless updates through PMs then come back when he gets to 50k miles and give us all an update.
Man, why are you being such a complete jerk off? The main use for an automotive forum is the exchange of information. If you don't care how the transmissions in our cars respond to fluid changes (that the stealers erroneously state we don't need) then quit replying to this thread and go elsewhere?:rolleyes

[NNY528I]

Go back and read what has been written. The OP has declared himself the final authority on the validity of all the collected wisdom on BMW automatic transmissions while clearly demonsrating a complete lack of understand of the subject matter. He has determined that BMW and ZF know less about the maintenance of these transmissions than he does, and now he is going to update us every 500 miles to tell us information that literally has no value or meaning other than to continue to reinforce the fact that he has no clue.

We are simply suggesting that he stop wasting bandwith and confusing people with his incorrect and pointless prattle.

[teedub21]

Yeah, sorry dude. I sort of flew off the handle on that one. I am interested in how his tranny service works out. However, to save myself the pain you may be having, I only check on this thread every couple weeks!

I do have to agree though, and its been beaten like a prom dates schlong, the ZF isn't the end all of transmission fluid for our cars. There are a number of aftermarket fluids that are rated as Esso replacements.

[NNY528I]

I press on with this because as you stated people come here to gain information and knowledge, they have no way to gauge the validity of what they are told, and unfortunately there are a lot of well meaning people who still have a lot to learn about cars who want to jump in and try to help which is great, but it means a lot of erroneous and confusing information gets shared.

There are a lot of us here who have taken the time to learn a bit more and for my part at least I try to share the most accurate and objective information I can and where applicable to explain the why's behind it. People like the OP here like to make grand dramatic statements that need to be tempered by logic and fact otherwise it just becomes a mess(evidence the m52 cant figure out thread where the OP got like 10 suggestions that were all over the map)

[Jester4176]

Question for the OP. Was this the first time you replaced your fluid? If so, replacing it wasn't the wisest of decisions. Seriously doubt you'll get another 100K out of the trans if that is the case.

[Al's540i]

Question for the OP. Was this the first time you replaced your fluid? If so, replacing it wasn't the wisest of decisions. Seriously doubt you'll get another 100K out of the trans if that is the case.

You have any data to back up your assumption? :help

Changed mine twice; first at about 10k miles ago and second about 8k miles ago. Tranny runs smooth as silk.

Edit: My indie tech who is a BMW certified tech does tranny drains/refills regularly at his shop. If it were bad, I doubt he would perform them.

[NNY528I]

The problem with this entire debate is that there is no data to clearly support either assumption. There are numerous examples of transmissions running on their original lifetime fill at well over 200k miles, likewise there are numerous examples of transmissions with changes ever 30k miles since new with well over 200k. There are also lots of examples of trannys failing around 100-150k with or without fluid changes. Confusing the matter is that many times the reason someone chooses to change their fluid is beacuse the think the tranny was misbehaving, thus it is not clear if the ultimate failure came because of the change or because of a developming problem.

Contrary to common belief, the maximum lifetime for an automatic transmission is not obtained by having smooth even operation but rather by having short, fast, firm shifting profile. Smooth shifts=increased wear on clutch components as the shift forces are spread out over a longer time increaseing heat and wear. The settings adopted by carmakers are designed to balance lifetime/performance with comfort. Most BMWs tend to see service as touring luxury cars not sports cars thus they tend to the smooth side of the equation. There is a good chance that what many people interpret as a smooth happier tranny is actually a tranny that is wearing faster than it might otherwise have done due to disolution of buildup/burnish in the clutch packs.

There is good evidence to suggest that Regular changes throughout the life of the transmission reduce the potential for change induced failures as the wear/buildup never gets too heavy thus there is little effect from a change, whereas changes after long intervals make this much more severe. It is my opinion at least that there are really two modes of operation here, either, changes regularly for the life of the tranny, or leave it alone for the life of the tranny(which is what ZF says) There are lots and lots of variables that impact the life of a transmission so many in fact that it is very difficult to normally determine why a transmission failed only to determine which part of it ultimately gave up the ghost.

[jamesdc4]

Then perhaps captain cheapo and yourself could carry on your useless updates through PMs then come back when he gets to 50k miles and give us all an update.
I can't speak for everyone but I do understand the rules of this forum very well. Discussion is encouraged as long as it is repectful. If you want to disagree, then fine, but the name calling and lack of respect will ultimately get you a TO.
Also, everytime you respond to this thread, you bump it back to the top.
The best thing to do if you do not like a posted thread is to NOT post.
At this point, I think most of us get the jist of what you are both saying. It is wasted bandwidth to continue arguing about it.
Please allow the OP to have his thread without harassment regardless of the validity of his claims.
Just my $.02.

[NNY528I]

I can't speak for everyone but I do understand the rules of this forum very well. Discussion is encouraged as long as it is repectful. If you want to disagree, then fine, but the name calling and lack of respect will ultimately get you a TO.
Also, everytime you respond to this thread, you bump it back to the top.
The best thing to do if you do not like a posted thread is to NOT post.
At this point, I think most of us get the jist of what you are both saying. It is wasted bandwidth to continue arguing about it.
Please allow the OP to have his thread without harassment regardless of the validity of his claims.
Just my $.02.

Perhaps you could admonish all parties that have made rude statements about others before cherry picking my comments, the OP was the first to make such statements.

I respond to this thread because this topic has produced a massive amount of incorrect and misleading information. The OP has not produced any valid information yet and has been pretty much ignored for most of the discussion, i have responded to other posts and other comments here which is the whole point of the discussion forum.

I will acknowledge that my comment above was not the height of decorum however your characterization of it is a little over dramatic, the OP has adopted a certain attitude and others than just myself have responded with similar mild jibes.

As with most people I treat everyone with respect and expect the same in return, however this particular person has not treated the rest of us with respect and it is rather unfair of you to call me out in face of the comments that provoked it.

I personally think that to allow someone to spout off clearly false and misleading information just so there is no debate or disagreement is just silly, what then is the point of coming here in the first place if you never know if the information you are reading is correct cause no one was willing to stand up and tell the truth.

[Jester4176]

I bought my 540iA with 112K on it. The fluid had never been changed, and I looked into whether to have it changed. My inde shop advised against it, as well as another very reputable transmission shop that my family and myself have used in the part with excellent results. Both shops gave me the same reason for not changing the fluid. They told me that if a car has over 40K-50K miles on it without an ATF change, it will do more harm than good to change it. I was told that as the trans ages, it wears down, and the older fluid is more viscous and runs better in the trans. If I were to put in new fluid, it would be slicker and there would be slippage of parts that would lead to failure of the trans. Personally, I'm not up for spending $3K for a new transmission, and if two trusted sources tell me not to change it, I'm going to listen, as neither have ever steered me wrong.

Oh, and a last note. Cut it out guys. Take the arguing to PM's. You're flooding the post with useless bickering.

[supark]

Perhaps you could admonish all parties that have made rude statements about others before cherry picking my comments, the OP was the first to make such statements.
...

Dude just stop with the bicKering. To be completely fair I haven't seen you add much useful to this thread other than just static so please just stop posting in it if you're just doing it because your pride is hurt and want to have the last word, it's childish and pointless.

[teedub21]

Contrary to common belief, the maximum lifetime for an automatic transmission is not obtained by having smooth even operation but rather by having short, fast, firm shifting profile. Smooth shifts=increased wear on clutch components as the shift forces are spread out over a longer time increaseing heat and wear.
This is why I put performance shift kits in my previous American made cars (Thunderbird SC & Ford Lightning). While the shifting seems more abrupt, the shifts are quicker and better for performance. I was told by a number of people that while the shifting felt rough (B&M stage 3 shift kit in my Lightning) that the smooth shifting stock tranny was actually putting more wear on the transmission.

Having said this, I wonder if it is better to drive my 540 around in the "sport" mode? It does shift quicker in this mode, but also holds the gear longer. Any thoughts?

[jamesdc4]

This is why I put performance shift kits in my previous American made cars (Thunderbird SC & Ford Lightning). While the shifting seems more abrupt, the shifts are quicker and better for performance. I was told by a number of people that while the shifting felt rough (B&M stage 3 shift kit in my Lightning) that the smooth shifting stock tranny was actually putting more wear on the transmission.

Having said this, I wonder if it is better to drive my 540 around in the "sport" mode? It does shift quicker in this mode, but also holds the gear longer. Any thoughts?
I've been doing all my city driving in S4.
I'm due for the ATF change and have been waffling about whether or not to do it. I have a feeling the PO did it already but have no documentation to support my suspicion. My tranny does clunk from 1st to 2nd once in a long while.

[NNY528I]

Dude just stop with the bicKering. To be completely fair I haven't seen you add much useful to this thread other than just static so please just stop posting in it if you're just doing it because your pride is hurt and want to have the last word, it's childish and pointless.

Oh really, so you find something that that I have presented here to be incorrect? If so please share the correct information. I really want to see it so that in the future I can provide the correct information. If you think that my pride is hurt then you obviously don't know me very well. My only goal is to share the correct information and to refute or flag out opinions conjecture or outright misrepresentations.

Also out of curiosity what do you think would represent a useful comment to this thread? Should we be telling people that they should run out and by "Cheapo" ATF fluid and change it out?

[jamesdc4]

Perhaps you could admonish all parties that have made rude statements about others before cherry picking my comments, the OP was the first to make such statements.

I respond to this thread because this topic has produced a massive amount of incorrect and misleading information. The OP has not produced any valid information yet and has been pretty much ignored for most of the discussion, i have responded to other posts and other comments here which is the whole point of the discussion forum.

I will acknowledge that my comment above was not the height of decorum however your characterization of it is a little over dramatic, the OP has adopted a certain attitude and others than just myself have responded with similar mild jibes.

As with most people I treat everyone with respect and expect the same in return, however this particular person has not treated the rest of us with respect and it is rather unfair of you to call me out in face of the comments that provoked it.

I personally think that to allow someone to spout off clearly false and misleading information just so there is no debate or disagreement is just silly, what then is the point of coming here in the first place if you never know if the information you are reading is correct cause no one was willing to stand up and tell the truth.
Look. I am interested in what you and the OP are talking about in this thread, but I can't learn anything from you if you are in a TO.
It was only my $.02. Please continue. :)

[NNY528I]

Look. I am interested in what you and the OP are talking about in this thread, but I can't learn anything from you if you are in a TO.
It was only my $.02. Please continue. :)

I agree, so back to the topic at hand.



Having said this, I wonder if it is better to drive my 540 around in the "sport" mode? It does shift quicker in this mode, but also holds the gear longer. Any thoughts?

Thats an interesting question and I never really thought about it from that perspective. I suppose that based on the way mine behaves in sport mode that it may actually reduce wear, at the expense of mileage of course.

[quickjoe1961]

Little 4k miles update. After the initial 3 thousands miles car/transmission seems to be more alive. It could a placebo but i think it just working a little better then before especially when accelerating for 0.

[Davhbmr]

I also changed my original fluid Mobil 1 Full synthetic at 93k now at 94k. Although as talked about before not long/far enough for any proof but tranny is much more precise and smooth.

Also under nearly same drive and ambient conditions my transmission temperature has dropped from 200 F to close to 165 F.

[PavelK313]

Any one know where I ca get ETL-7045E besides the dealer?

[Jason5driver]

Any one know where I ca get ETL-7045E besides the dealer?

www.BavAuto.com

I would also check with Jared at www.EACtuning.com .

[mitch48]

Let me add my experience. 1997 740iL, I changed the fluid and filter at 98,000 miles, used Mobil 1 synthetic ATF, had a local shop do a full flush. I sold the car two years later to a friend, he's still driving it, and it now has well over 165,000 miles on the odo. No troubles at all.

[m5hoot]

Guys, why is it so easy to start a 4 page bicker war here over something as trivial as ATF?

You are all missing the point. BMW graces us all with "lifetime" fluid that NEVER needs to be replaced so by replacing your fluid with anything is stupid- JK of course.

Can't we all just get along and play nice with each other?.

Rodney King

[quickjoe1961]

8k update, clutch packs are not splipping tranny works, no leaks, very responsive.

[quickjoe1961]

9.5k
Still working hard and well. Did 1 short trip to Vegas 650miles. 300 each way and 50miles locally. Cruising to Vegas at 85-110 mph.

[dieselfuelonly]

I'll add some information.
I own a '00 540I 6speed.
We run a transmission shop and have been in business for over 20 years, I am currently apprenticing for my dad learning everything I can.
Heres how I feel about my BMW. When it comes to sensors, and mechanical items I will go OEM, not cheap-o duralast.
As far as this heated debate between transmission fluids, I'm not sure what the transmission calls for . Now when it comes down to running the manufactured brand that is what should be in it. If you can find a ATF+3,+4 that meets/exceeds the manufactured recommendation for cheaper, run that.
If your worried about your fluid not being combatiable check out Lube Guard product line.
8 out of the 10 automatic transmissions I disassemble fail DUE to HEAT.
Wheather it was from the cooler plugging up, fluid losing its viscosity, or from constant reverse to drive situations.

At over 100K miles I would not be disturbed at all to run a cheaper ATF combatiable fluid. They have multi-vehicle fully synthetics made for a reason. They also has manufacture recommendations for a reason.

I do not understand why this subject is being beat to death, maybe you do not want to A) See a fellow BMW enthusiast throw down a stack of $$ for a transmission fluid and filter change, or maybe B) You don't want to see a fellow BMW owner put the cheaper stuff in and have to regret it with paying to get the transmission overhauled. But what-ever the case it should be brought down to the "Different Folks, Different Strokes" yah know? Its his money, his car thats what it comes down to.

[quickjoe1961]

Just wanted to update and close the thread. Right at the moment i did over 12,000 miles after changing atf in zf 5hp-19 with Valvoline MaxLife ATF in a transmission with 200k+ miles. Everything works well, i hope I'm not jinxing myself.

[ViolinARC]

Aww Man...how boring! I was waiting for the post to come up stating that you heard a loud clunking sound and your car drifted to a stop. Upon checking your rearview mirror, you spied the trans sitting in the middle of the road because you used cheap transmisson fluid instead of BMW fluid...LMFAO!

Glad everything is working out and that you're happy you saved a few dollars too. Too bad some of these guys have given you a few sleepless nights worrying about f'in up your transmission by using a lower cost alternative...sigh.

[BimmerBreaker]

I vote we ban the OP for taking almost a full page to tell us what kind car he had.

[KevKaos]

Ok, just dropping my 2 cents worth in here. After a lot of agonizing over if I should change my ATF or not (after I had already bought the filter kit and ATF), I took the plunge and changed it. I used Mobil One Syth ATF, changed the filter (note: my kit from BavAuto had the wrong size replacement drain and refill plugs for my 98. Not sure what the deal is there). Did the change at 97,500 miles, not knowing if it had ever been done before. Big surprize of the day was when we dropped the pan. After reading numerous threads on ATF changes and seeing photos with the magnets looking like hedgehogs with metal filings, The surprize was that there were NO filings. What was there was more like silt settled in the bottom of the pan, and not even all that much of that. I also expected (based on photos I had seen) to find dark burnt on ATF on the bottom of the pan, but did not. To tell the truth, we (brother in law and myself) think that the ATF was probably changed at some pont and possibly a different pan put on. We did not do the three change method, although I may drain and refill again before the summer ends to change out more of the ATF. Overall, I am very happy with the change. My trans seems tighter and smoother.

[m5hoot]

NNY528- rather amazing that you are affected by rudeness when you are practically the king. Sorry, but you even acknowledge it in your sig... resident PITA. I just figure that's who you are and don't pay attention as your value as a knowledgeable contributor offsets your attitude IMO. Your responses generally have a pretty predictable, harsh tone and it is rather odd that you take offense considering you throw it out there pretty good (and often).

I use ESSO and like Jason, changed it out three times as the most I ever could get in on any one change was maybe 6 bottles. Simple math. You just keep leaving less and less of the old stuff every time you do it. Diminishing returns with each change and you are also tossing out some good with the bad. Makes great sense to me, but who cares what I think!

Quickjoe, I don't really see your point. Whether you go 2000 miles or 200,000 it proves nothing except that in your case and in your car, you have seen no harm. It's risk/reward. The question is how would you feel if you had screwed up your tranny? Would you not, along with others, be asking yourself why the hell you needed to prove something at the cost of your tranny? I mean, if you owned Valvoline then you might at least have a vested interest in taking the risk. If you somehow knew ahead of time that there was absolutely no risk on your part, I'd just like to know how you knew that? If there was any risk, again you have to decide if the reward (saving money) is greater than the risk. The size of your wallet begins to enter into the equation at some point, would it not?

This is really a silly and pointless thread. If I posted that I used horse piss in my tranny and it is still working fine at 20,000 miles, what is the take-away?

I just plead "guilty as charged" to getting some sort of "kick" out of this pointless thread. The fact that I just wasted 10 minutes of my life posting back shows how I have far too much time on my hands.

[NNY528I]

NNY528- rather amazing that you are affected by rudeness when you are practically the king. Sorry, but you even acknowledge it in your sig... resident PITA. I just figure that's who you are and don't pay attention as your value as a knowledgeable contributor offsets your attitude IMO. Your responses generally have a pretty predictable, harsh tone and it is rather odd that you take offense considering you throw it out there pretty good (and often).




Being direct, concise, focused and factually correct is very different than being rude and attacking people just because they don't agree with you. I don't mince a lot of words and I call BS when I smell it. But I limit my attacks to the facts and information. Occasionally someone really pushes my buttons and then I get a little angry, however that usually takes quite a few attacks jibes and general rudeness on the part of the other person.

My attitude is generally pretty focused and direct but not particularly rude, people just dont like being disagreed with, they seem to think this is like a Myspace or something where everyone gets to share whatever they want and no one can say anything about it rather than an interactive forum discussion(one of the fundemental requirements for a meaningful discussion is to have at least 2 different points of view, otherwise there is no discusion.)

Also this view everyone seems to have of me is frustrating because I am a very helpful and interactive person who loves to teach and help people learn new skills, ask around to some of the people who know me, they will set you straight.

[Orxan4ik]

I am a very helpful and interactive person who loves to teach and help people learn new skills, ask around to some of the people who know me, they will set you straight.

I can vouch for that x a million

[cnn]

....This is really a silly and pointless thread. If I posted that I used horse piss in my tranny and it is still working fine at 20,000 miles, what is the take-away?

This is not a pointless thread at all. This is one of the best threads around.
The idea is cost-saving (paying less for each qt of ATF fluid) while proving that the alternative such as Mobil 1 Synthetic does the job equally well.

This thread also proves that we as bimmer owners cannot be held hostage by BMW to use only Esso fluid ("otherwise your bimmer trans will fail" garbage). American freedom will always prevail!

[m5hoot]

I was getting power steering pump growl in the 2002 540 and decided to flush that system not too long ago. My plan was to drain-fill-drive around three or four times to get all fresh PS fluid in there. Also in my plan was to use rather cheap A/T fluid for the sacrificial changes and then use this $19.95 bottle of Lucas P/S fluid on the last fill as the bottle said that it absolutely restored dry seals, restored performance, etc. Besides, it was expensive so it had to be good, right? After the first change-out, the pump was really quiet and I should have quit right there, but no....I did it again and then used the Lucas. All of a sudden the pump started howling and screaming for mercy! Honest to God it was screaming "put me out of my misery". I went to check the level thinking it must have fooled me and not be completely bled of air. I saw red Lucas P/S fluid all over the engine compartment. I removed the cap while running and the fluid was BOILING like soup left on high too long. I must assume that this fluid allowed air to be sucked into the system for whatever reason I never figured out. Thankfully, I got the stuff out before any permanent damage was done. Put the $3 a quart stuff back in and it's quiet as a mouse. Thankfully Advance auto parts refunded my money when I returned the 1/2 empty bottle of this crap.
Takeaway? cost means zip, but it did not meet the spec. obviously. Thought money reduced the risk and in this case I was full of it. I just don't want to find out the hard way when it comes to my only mode of getting around and no income to fix my mistakes. Looks like I've finally got a suitable job offer in the works, but this economy has hurt this 55 year old like you can't believe. Retirement fund almost completely wiped-out. Damn I wish I had listened when parents said I needed to put away more and spend less. I'll be the guy greeting you all at Wal-Mart. Too many old farts like me to be supported by not enough young rascals like yourselves. Work harder!

NNY...I'm the same way-rub people wrong, but don't cry "foul" if that's your game. I know you're a good guy and knowledgeable as heck. Just figured you knew you came across like it's your way or the highway which can make people feel defensive.

As far as this thread NOT being pointless, are you saying that because one car has gone 20,000 miles or 200,000 miles that we will all have the same result guaranteed?
YMMV is a common saying for a reason.

[DuffmanE39]

All of a sudden the pump started howling and screaming for mercy! Honest to God it was screaming "put me out of my misery". I went to check the level thinking it must have fooled me and not be completely bled of air.

You bought the Lucas power steering stop leak additive. lol

It's not meant to be used by itself.

Besides, the car takes Dexron III, not PSF.

[m5hoot]

You bought the Lucas power steering stop leak additive. lol

It's not meant to be used by itself.

Besides, the car takes Dexron III, not PSF.

No, your assumption is wrong. The Lucas I used was not stop leak, but you can laugh anyway. I knew the P/S uses A/T fluid (Dexron III specifically, as you state)as that is why I used it on the first flushes. Problem was that I ASSumed the Lucas met the spec. as it was pricey and it stated right on the bottle that it was for all European vehicles...Bull doo-doo.

BTW, the product you are talking about can be used by itself and does not have to be used as an additive according to Lucas. I believe it was the transmission product that I may have used..either way it was equally stupid on my part which was my admission in the first place--thinking price equals quality is not a good reason to buy Esso, but it is the spec. fluid by the mfgr.