your advice on Suspensions, Springs & Shocks for drag race E36

[MR.E36i]

I am serching for the best Suspensions, Springs & Shocks (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=211)
to use it for my E36 Drag race car only (vert)

looking for more stability and best rigidity on launching

my stock suspension will not giv me that much stability

what brand do you advice me to go with for complete kit ?

[jone30]

Honestly, unless you are going to be getting serious, get some Koni SA's (Yellow's). That way you can set the rear shocks on stiff so that when the car squats, it stays down and doesn't pop up when you shift.

[card counter]

MR.E36i what front rims and tires are you using

[B.Watts]

i wouldnt spend money on suspension unless you had to.

Why not? :confused

[jrtcbmw]

i dont see suspension other than what i suggested helping him.


suspension is the biggest key in drag racing. without proper suspension set your just wasting time, money, tires, gas, and energy. doesnt matter if its serious matter or not the best thing for a drag car is the suspension

everything revolves around the suspension, from the launch, to way the weight transfers front to rear and side to side. being an e36 which was not designed to go down the dragstrip but instead handle, the way the suspension set is set is more then likely killing his times.

a proper set up suspension will yield faster times as well as more consistent times.

being someone who is different and taking the e36 chassis he is going down a road that most do venture with the e36. so a lot of the suspension recommendations will be nil and you will have to do a lot research and test and tunes on your own.

what ever you do, make sure you document everything for the next person to venture into the drag world with an e36.

[MR.E36i]

card counter;


They are WELD RACING light weight Wheels :cool

continental 135/75/15 Front tires
http://www.performanceplustire.com/products/wheels/searchType/searchByBrand/manufacturerID/159/productID_/4250#prodAnchor

[MrBlonde]

suspension is the biggest key in drag racing.

No, for a long time when starting with a street car, power is the biggest key. Then comes traction. Then breaking driveline. Then comes suspension.

[jrtcbmw]

No, for a long time when starting with a street car, power is the biggest key. Then comes traction. Then breaking driveline. Then comes suspension.


Actually traction and suspension are in the same category, with out proper suspension you will get limited traction, you have traction but you will not have maximized the available traction. with a proper set up and tuned suspension you can get the most traction.

Yes power is key but not the biggest. You get get more consistant times and just as fast times with a car that has a properly tuned suspension over a high hp/tq car with no suspension work.

Just doing a quick google search on "drag racing suspension" got these links that all put suspension on top of the list of things to do to a car.

http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/dragshock.shtml
http://forums.evolutionm.net/brakes-suspension/198134-drag-race-suspension-setup.html
http://www.jdmuniverse.com/forums/sus-tech/569-importance-suspension-drag-racing.html

If i were to ever build or start drag racing, id start at the suspension, so i could get all the power the motor was making down to the wheel and ground before making any power modifications. Horsepower means nothing with out the ability to control the power and apply it.

I may be someone who is not a drag racing fan or fully involved in it, but i have been around the block and had experiance and knowledge on all suspensions and tuning them for drag cars as well as street cars.

[MrBlonde]

Actually traction and suspension are in the same category, with out proper suspension you will get limited traction, you have traction but you will not have maximized the available traction. with a proper set up and tuned suspension you can get the most traction.

Yes power is key but not the biggest. You get get more consistant times and just as fast times with a car that has a properly tuned suspension over a high hp/tq car with no suspension work.

Just doing a quick google search on "drag racing suspension" got these links that all put suspension on top of the list of things to do to a car.

http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/dragshock.shtml
http://forums.evolutionm.net/brakes-suspension/198134-drag-race-suspension-setup.html
http://www.jdmuniverse.com/forums/sus-tech/569-importance-suspension-drag-racing.html

If i were to ever build or start drag racing, id start at the suspension, so i could get all the power the motor was making down to the wheel and ground before making any power modifications. Horsepower means nothing with out the ability to control the power and apply it.

I may be someone who is not a drag racing fan or fully involved in it, but i have been around the block and had experiance and knowledge on all suspensions and tuning them for drag cars as well as street cars.

You're wrong.

[jrtcbmw]

You're wrong.


Then every book out there discussing racing, drag racing, suspensions is wrong, correct? What about a professor of mine that has been around drag racing for countless of years and been teaching everything from performance chassis design and suspensions to dyno tuning is wrong, correct?

How is that i am wrong??





sorry to the OP to have kinda hijacked the thread. but if you want to learn about proper suspension tuning and set, there are a bunch of good books out there that provide a ton of information. now most of it will not be spacifically for the e36 but just remember no matter the make type of suspension they all have the same basic designs and employee the same ideas, just in a different way.

Here is a book, all though its for older muscle cars and a specific class of drag racing, it provides a LOT of useful information that will help you with any car you build.

http://www.speedtalk.com/doorslammers_drag_chassis.html

Its going to be hard for you to find a lot of information on your spacific car, but there is information out there that is used on all cars. the best things to do is to do your own test and tunes.

Call up the different suspension companies out there and talk to them. tell them what you are doing and what you want to do with your car/suspension. most of them will probably wont be much help but any help is better then nothing.

My recommendation would be to pick up a set of coilovers with a height adjustments and at least compression adjustments. Play the different settings, both height wise and the compressions wise. Play with different spring rates, this is where the information out there about drag race suspensions will come in handy because it will discuss how to find the Center of Gravity, how to chose the right spring rates.

And what ever you do when you do modify your suspension and buy different parts, always keep records not only for yourself but for others that might be interested in the information.

Again sorry to the OP about hijacking the thread. hope this helps

[MrBlonde]

Then every book out there discussing racing, drag racing, suspensions is wrong, correct? What about a professor of mine that has been around drag racing for countless of years and been teaching everything from performance chassis design and suspensions to dyno tuning is wrong, correct?

How is that i am wrong??





sorry to the OP to have kinda hijacked the thread. but if you want to learn about proper suspension tuning and set, there are a bunch of good books out there that provide a ton of information. now most of it will not be spacifically for the e36 but just remember no matter the make type of suspension they all have the same basic designs and employee the same ideas, just in a different way.

Here is a book, all though its for older muscle cars and a specific class of drag racing, it provides a LOT of useful information that will help you with any car you build.

http://www.speedtalk.com/doorslammers_drag_chassis.html

Its going to be hard for you to find a lot of information on your spacific car, but there is information out there that is used on all cars. the best things to do is to do your own test and tunes.

Call up the different suspension companies out there and talk to them. tell them what you are doing and what you want to do with your car/suspension. most of them will probably wont be much help but any help is better then nothing.

My recommendation would be to pick up a set of coilovers with a height adjustments and at least compression adjustments. Play the different settings, both height wise and the compressions wise. Play with different spring rates, this is where the information out there about drag race suspensions will come in handy because it will discuss how to find the Center of Gravity, how to chose the right spring rates.

And what ever you do when you do modify your suspension and buy different parts, always keep records not only for yourself but for others that might be interested in the information.

Again sorry to the OP about hijacking the thread. hope this helps

You are wrong because for a BMW unibody car going drag racing, power is the most important factor for a long while before suspension is important.

You can setup the suspension on a 240 bhp BMW as well as you like, it's not going to beat an 800 bhp BMW with stock suspension. If you had followed the leaderboard for BMW street car drag racing here over the years you'd know that the top 5 at all points in time have been achieved by power before suspension tuning.

As far as all your "helpful advice" goes, you can look up all the full chassis live axle drag racing suspension texts on google you like, but what the OP wants is information about how to setup his BMW street car with IRS for the drag strip. It's not a doorslammer, it's a unibody IRS car.

To the OP: I do not know of any manufacturer's kit for E36 drag racing. Basically you're going to have to build you own suspension setup to suit your car's characteristics.

With an IRS unibody car, you want to transfer weight to the rear tires and yet have neutral camber on the hit (avoid squat). You also want the weight to stay to the rear under gear changes.

My advice is to try solid suspension mountings in the rear, stiff springs in the rear combined with adjustable shocks all around. The shocks should be setup in the front 90/10, that is heavy resistance to compression, low resistance to rebound (so the front will not drop down on gear changes). The rear shocks should be set say 50/50.

Then video your car under the hit and adjust your rear camber until the tires are on neutral as the car comes out of the hole. This may mean you are setup positive camber at rest.

If anyone knows better information about how to setup a unibody IRS RWD car, post it up here!

[Mac Daddy]

You are wrong because for a BMW unibody car going drag racing, power is the most important factor for a long while before suspension is important.

You can setup the suspension on a 240 bhp BMW as well as you like, it's not going to beat an 800 bhp BMW with stock suspension. If you had followed the leaderboard for BMW street car drag racing here over the years you'd know that the top 5 at all points in time have been achieved by power before suspension tuning.

As far as all your "helpful advice" goes, you can look up all the full chassis live axle drag racing suspension texts on google you like, but what the OP wants is information about how to setup his BMW street car with IRS for the drag strip. It's not a doorslammer, it's a unibody IRS car.

To the OP: I do not know of any manufacturer's kit for E36 drag racing. Basically you're going to have to build you own suspension setup to suit your car's characteristics.

With an IRS unibody car, you want to transfer weight to the rear tires and yet have neutral camber on the hit (avoid squat). You also want the weight to stay to the rear under gear changes.

My advice is to try solid suspension mountings in the rear, stiff springs in the rear combined with adjustable shocks all around. The shocks should be setup in the front 90/10, that is heavy resistance to compression, low resistance to rebound (so the front will not drop down on gear changes). The rear shocks should be set say 50/50.

Then video your car under the hit and adjust your rear camber until the tires are on neutral as the car comes out of the hole. This may mean you are setup positive camber at rest.

If anyone knows better information about how to setup a unibody IRS RWD car, post it up here!

100% Agreed :buttrock

[MR.E36i]

[quote=MrBlonde;
Thanks for your great advice,

what brands of shock do you advice me to get,
i found those on Ebay are they the one you are talking about
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KSPORT-PRO-COILOVERS-SPRINGS-93-99-BMW-E36-325-328-330_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116Q QitemZ280244433514QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPart sQ5fAccessories


and those
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E36-93-98-STREET-COILOVER-DAMPER-KIT-MEGAN-RACING_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q 3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c29 3Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZi tem180313605589QQitemZ180313605589QQptZMotorsQ5fCa rQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335818596&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2FBMW-E36-93-98-STREET-COILOVER-DAMPER-KIT-MEGAN-RACING_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q 3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c29 3Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZi tem180313605589QQitemZ180313605589QQptZMotorsQ5fCa rQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
i have upgraded my trans mount with UUC Urethane + aluminum caps
and i add Active DSB, and my diff bushing replaced with aluminum

should i go for aluminum or Urethane Subframe Mount ??

[PEI330Ci]

I'm going to slightly disagree with you Kenny.

For drag racing in bracket classes, you are chasing consistency rather than outright speed. In this case, suspension will come into play before power. I know of 13 second dedicated drag cars that have highly tuned suspensions with the end goal being consistency.

I don't think the OP is going bracket racing though...

IF some of you get the 5 catagory Kenny has listed for "chasing numbers", there are some additional setup tricks that will help.

If you know your intended ET and trap, you can calculate a rough 60 ft time that can then be broken down into Gs of acceleration. You can then simulate this value with a car on a set of scales, with a cable or chain attached to the the COG point on the rear of the car. Basically, you pull on the back of the car until a previously calculated amount of weight has been shifted. (I have the formulas, but won't post them here) The idea here, is that you want to watch the reaction the chassis has to the force being applied. The most noticable thing you will observe is actually side to side movement of the car. This is what you want to "tune" out of the chassis by adjusting spring heights, (Preload sometimes, or sometimes the actual length of the springs) or by changing spring rates. In the case of the IRS, you will be able to watch how it's movement affects rear tire camber. Again, you can play with spring rates to adjust the starting and end point of rear squat, but don't forget the front suspension. In the front, you generally want to target a long and soft spring to allow the front end to store potential energy for release across a 3" to 4" range of motion.

Once the spring rates have been chosen based on static loading of the chassis, damper settings can be tuned at the drag strip via dynamic loading of the chassis.

Adjustable dampers aren't just a one time set and forget piece. Every trip to the drag strip, even the same drag strip, has the potential to offer a different traction surface to work from. Having compression and rebound damping control is crucial, but being able to adjust the preload pressure of the damping oil can also have big benifits. Quite simply, as the damper rod moves into the the damper body, it wants to displace oil. Being able to tune the resistance of the oil as it's displaced is a nice additional feature. (You do this by changing the pressure found in remote nitrogen reserviors)

I don't want to create a "how to" here, but rather skim the topics that should be investigated. What I've written above is just an introduction to chassis tuning...

[MrBlonde]

I'm going to slightly disagree with you Kenny.

For drag racing in bracket classes, you are chasing consistency rather than outright speed. In this case, suspension will come into play before power. I know of 13 second dedicated drag cars that have highly tuned suspensions with the end goal being consistency.

I don't think the OP is going bracket racing though...

IF some of you get the 5 catagory Kenny has listed for "chasing numbers", there are some additional setup tricks that will help.

If you know your intended ET and trap, you can calculate a rough 60 ft time that can then be broken down into Gs of acceleration. You can then simulate this value with a car on a set of scales, with a cable or chain attached to the the COG point on the rear of the car. Basically, you pull on the back of the car until a previously calculated amount of weight has been shifted. (I have the formulas, but won't post them here) The idea here, is that you want to watch the reaction the chassis has to the force being applied. The most noticable thing you will observe is actually side to side movement of the car. This is what you want to "tune" out of the chassis by adjusting spring heights, (Preload sometimes, or sometimes the actual length of the springs) or by changing spring rates. In the case of the IRS, you will be able to watch how it's movement affects rear tire camber. Again, you can play with spring rates to adjust the starting and end point of rear squat, but don't forget the front suspension. In the front, you generally want to target a long and soft spring to allow the front end to store potential energy for release across a 3" to 4" range of motion.

Once the spring rates have been chosen based on static loading of the chassis, damper settings can be tuned at the drag strip via dynamic loading of the chassis.

Adjustable dampers aren't just a one time set and forget piece. Every trip to the drag strip, even the same drag strip, has the potential to offer a different traction surface to work from. Having compression and rebound damping control is crucial, but being able to adjust the preload pressure of the damping oil can also have big benifits. Quite simply, as the damper rod moves into the the damper body, it wants to displace oil. Being able to tune the resistance of the oil as it's displaced is a nice additional feature. (You do this by changing the pressure found in remote nitrogen reserviors)

I don't want to create a "how to" here, but rather skim the topics that should be investigated. What I've written above is just an introduction to chassis tuning...
Adam, yes consistency is the name of the game for bracket racing, but I wasn't talking about DYO, just outright low ET and high trap.

I have a distaste for DYO because I don't think drag racing should be about anything other than how quick your car is. Of course a bleeder with transbrake and stally will leave the same way very time and therefore have a huge advantage in DYO racing. Not my cup of tea!

The other thing to remember is that you still have to qualify for DYO brackets .. so you still must have the ET to make the show.

[Mac Daddy]

[quote=MrBlonde;
Thanks for your great advice,

what brands of shock do you advice me to get,
i found those on Ebay are they the one you are talking about
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KSPORT-PRO-COILOVERS-SPRINGS-93-99-BMW-E36-325-328-330_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116Q QitemZ280244433514QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPart sQ5fAccessories


and those
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E36-93-98-STREET-COILOVER-DAMPER-KIT-MEGAN-RACING_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q 3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c29 3Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZi tem180313605589QQitemZ180313605589QQptZMotorsQ5fCa rQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335818596&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2FBMW-E36-93-98-STREET-COILOVER-DAMPER-KIT-MEGAN-RACING_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q 3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c29 3Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZi tem180313605589QQitemZ180313605589QQptZMotorsQ5fCa rQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
i have upgraded my trans mount with UUC Urethane + aluminum caps
and i add Active DSB, and my diff bushing replaced with aluminum

should i go for aluminum or Urethane Subframe Mount ??


go for Aluminum :lol

[wgcc]

I choose not to comment very often, I have been racing for over 30 years. As usual mrBlond"s advice is absolutely spot on. Keep up the right stuff bro, we need guys like you to keep us straight. Nobody knows everything as I have humbly recently learned, but what I have followed in every thread here has been really good. Impressive.

[PEI330Ci]

Agreed, there is certainly more skill required to bang gears and hit your number. Most here are running stick, so it will be interesting to see the different suspension packages chosen, and how they translate to short times.

The machinist that did the work on my block used to run an 8 sec Opel. I'm told he shifted twice in the first 60ft! Looking forward to discussing suspension tuning with him...

[MR.E36i]

Hey Guy's

Where can i find shocks 90/10 specs front and 50/50 Rear ,

[MR.E36i]

Hey Guy's

Where can i find shocks 90/10 specs front and 50/50 Rear ,

??

[LukeG]

you have to buy dual adjustable shocks and then set them to those settings. Call ground control or tckline

[B.Watts]

Hey Guy's

Where can i find shocks 90/10 specs front and 50/50 Rear ,

You call up a shock company and you have them built or you have your current performance shocks revalved.


you have to buy dual adjustable shocks and then set them to those settings. Call ground control or tckline

Nothing off the shelf from those companies is going to have that sort of valving. You'll need a custom build.

GC, TCK, Vorshlag, etc could all probably put together a package for you with their various damper offerings.

[5mall5nail5]

4 link it :)

[Hova]

sorry guys, but on stock power hes not going to run any faster with some crazy suspention setup..

power before modifications to suspention...

[MR.E36i]

sorry guys, but on stock power hes not going to run any faster with some crazy suspention setup..

power before modifications to suspention...


agree