Vague Steering / wandering

[oakman]

When I bought my 535 it had really vague steering, and I have been working on getting it better since. I have replaced the tie rods (lemforder) as well as the center drag link (TRW), and got a 4 wheel alignment. I have also done my best at adjusting the steering box and tightening the nut by the pedals.

I still have a really vague on center, and worse than that the car seems to wander quite a bit whenever the road isn't perfectly smooth. What happens is I can be driving down a highway that has ruts, the car will steer slightly without any input from me, and then correction takes a decent amount of steering wheel movement. I've owned and driven other E34s and they were never this bad.

So basically what I am asking is, do you think it is the steering box? Before I go spend a chunk of money on a low mileage one I would like to have a decent idea as to whether i am going in the right direction.

[seth260]

To add my 2 cents in, i was helping Oakman out the other day. To me the car feels as though every once and a while you loose steering control and the car will move quickly (not violently) 6 to 12 inches over to the left or right.

The first time it happens i at least got a bit of the pucker effect, it just doesn't feel right.

[kipwinger]

If the normal front end issues have been addressed, I would suggest that you inspect your pitman arms and subframe mounts.

[moroza]

+1 on subframe mounts - they make the rear end wobble.

If it's definitely a front-end issue, then it sounds like you need a new steerbox. I'm in the same boat.

[mikemxbike4]

Mine did that and it was all fixed when i replaced the shocks and mounts

[oakman]

When I did the tie rods I checked the pitman and ilder arms and they seemed to be tight, also all the control arms are nearly new and I couldn't see any cracks or damage in the bushings or ball joints. I'll have to check the rear subframe bushings, never thought of that.

I guess the question I really have, is whether a worn steering box would have enough play in the gears to allow the wheels to turn without turning the steering wheel? Either way I found a steering box with a pitman arm out of a 94 525i that supposedly only had 20k miles on it for $70 shipped, I guess I'll buy that, can't be worse than mine.

[kipwinger]

You also have two "pitman arms" "dog bones" or anything else you would like to call them in the rear of the vehicle.

[Binjammin]

If the normal front end issues have been addressed, I would suggest that you inspect your pitman arms and subframe mounts.

Amen. I'd bank on subframe bushings.


When I did the tie rods I checked the pitman and ilder arms and they seemed to be tight, also all the control arms are nearly new and I couldn't see any cracks or damage in the bushings or ball joints. I'll have to check the rear subframe bushings, never thought of that.

I guess the question I really have, is whether a worn steering box would have enough play in the gears to allow the wheels to turn without turning the steering wheel? Either way I found a steering box with a pitman arm out of a 94 525i that supposedly only had 20k miles on it for $70 shipped, I guess I'll buy that, can't be worse than mine.

Is that steering box in a junkyard? I wouldn't believe the 20k claim, but if the box is tight then whatever. I'd spend my time and money on the rear, you're describing a classic behavior of bad subframe bushings, don't spend more money than you need to.

[oakman]

I appreciate the input, but to me this doesn't really feel like a rear thing though, I've driven cars with issues in the rear, and this doesn't feel like dog tracking from the rear.

I drove some more and payed really close attention to what it was doing. I would point the car straight and let go of the wheel, the car would drive straight and then after either a bump or some sort of road imperfection it would start steering either left or right without the wheel moving at all. Then I would correct and again leave the wheel and it would keep tracking on the correction till it would again start to steer the opposite way without the steering wheel moving at all.

I started wondering today if an improper wheel alignment could do this? I will have to jack the car up this weekend and do some testing with the car off the ground, get someone to steer while I am underneath and see where the slack may be. If I see nothing then I will look at the rear, but I am convinced the issue is coming from the front.

[mikemxbike4]

I appreciate the input, but to me this doesn't really feel like a rear thing though, I've driven cars with issues in the rear, and this doesn't feel like dog tracking from the rear.

I drove some more and payed really close attention to what it was doing. I would point the car straight and let go of the wheel, the car would drive straight and then after either a bump or some sort of road imperfection it would start steering either left or right without the wheel moving at all. Then I would correct and again leave the wheel and it would keep tracking on the correction till it would again start to steer the opposite way without the steering wheel moving at all.

I started wondering today if an improper wheel alignment could do this? I will have to jack the car up this weekend and do some testing with the car off the ground, get someone to steer while I am underneath and see where the slack may be. If I see nothing then I will look at the rear, but I am convinced the issue is coming from the front.

Like ive said before if even one of of your shocks is blown the car will steer to either side when you hit uneven pavement

[Binjammin]

I appreciate the input, but to me this doesn't really feel like a rear thing though, I've driven cars with issues in the rear, and this doesn't feel like dog tracking from the rear.

I drove some more and payed really close attention to what it was doing. I would point the car straight and let go of the wheel, the car would drive straight and then after either a bump or some sort of road imperfection it would start steering either left or right without the wheel moving at all. Then I would correct and again leave the wheel and it would keep tracking on the correction till it would again start to steer the opposite way without the steering wheel moving at all.

I started wondering today if an improper wheel alignment could do this? I will have to jack the car up this weekend and do some testing with the car off the ground, get someone to steer while I am underneath and see where the slack may be. If I see nothing then I will look at the rear, but I am convinced the issue is coming from the front.

Wow, sounds like bad rear subframe bushings. But don't take my word for it, throw more parts at your front end. Of course, you COULD jack up the rear of the car, remove the plate on either side and inspect them to see how bad they are, but I'm sure I'll see more comments like "but but but my front end" in the near future.

Seriously, if your alignment were off, either your steering wheel would be pulling, or your car would, and in one direction. Toe is the only adjustment, but if you had camber off it would feel like you were wobbling when turning in to a corner. Toe problems or camber problems would give you wicked uneven wear on your front tires. See any of that? You said you've replaced a bunch of parts in your front end, if you shake the tires do you have play? (obviously when jacked up)

I'm guessing you don't want to hear it, but the reason subframe bushings give you those symptoms is because the whole rear subframe rotates under the car. It makes the car feel like it's drifting around, like it's really loose. There's often a clunk sound from the rear from a dead stop, but not always. Take the 1/2 hour per side, look at the bushings.

[Compgeek256]

The front strut inserts (shocks) could also be loose in the strut.

[uribendovid]

Wow, sounds like bad rear subframe bushings. But don't take my word for it, throw more parts at your front end. Of course, you COULD jack up the rear of the car, remove the plate on either side and inspect them to see how bad they are, but I'm sure I'll see more comments like "but but but my front end" in the near future.

Seriously, if your alignment were off, either your steering wheel would be pulling, or your car would, and in one direction. Toe is the only adjustment, but if you had camber off it would feel like you were wobbling when turning in to a corner. Toe problems or camber problems would give you wicked uneven wear on your front tires. See any of that? You said you've replaced a bunch of parts in your front end, if you shake the tires do you have play? (obviously when jacked up)

I'm guessing you don't want to hear it, but the reason subframe bushings give you those symptoms is because the whole rear subframe rotates under the car. It makes the car feel like it's drifting around, like it's really loose. There's often a clunk sound from the rear from a dead stop, but not always. Take the 1/2 hour per side, look at the bushings.

+1 replacing these make a HUGE difference in general. You will likely find that your car feels much tighter overall if you replace these. MY sunroof rattle even stopped once I did these.

[oakman]

I will definitely take a look at the rear subframe bushings this weekend, it's at least worth checking it out. I've been proven wrong many times before and this could very well be one of them :)

The front struts / strut mounts are still good, I inspected them when I did the tie rods. There is no bounce and the mounts look solid to me.

I guess after I do some testing with someone steering while I am under the car I should be able to verify whether the steering box is having issues or not, or whether something is loose in the steering.

I'm assuming that most of the wrecker boxes are going to be loose, so are my chances with a wrecker steering box slim to none to get a tight one? Do most people do reman ones?

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

[moroza]

I guess the question I really have, is whether a worn steering box would have enough play in the gears to allow the wheels to turn without turning the steering wheel?

Absolutely. And conversely, you could turn the steering wheel a bit before the front wheels get the message - are you getting any of that kind of play? If not, then I'd bet it's the subframe bushings. Either way, check them.

I lived in Morden in the early 90's, and my dad biked to work in Winkler; just noticed you're from there. How's the weather?

[oakman]

Well I jacked the car up this morning, and I found the issue. With the car off the ground, I can grab the front wheels and move them back forth about 10 degrees without the steering wheel rod moving at all. I can actually feel and hear it knocking back and forth. What I don't know is if it's the pitman arm itself or the box. Either way I'll have to remove the box and then I'll find out for sure.

I did end up checking the rear subframe bushings and they seem to be in really good shape, no real cracking or anything.

Thanks again for the help everyone, I'll post another update when I get it fixed.

[Russellc]

Well I jacked the car up this morning, and I found the issue. With the car off the ground, I can grab the front wheels and move them back forth about 10 degrees without the steering wheel rod moving at all. I can actually feel and hear it knocking back and forth. What I don't know is if it's the pitman arm itself or the box. Either way I'll have to remove the box and then I'll find out for sure.

I did end up checking the rear subframe bushings and they seem to be in really good shape, no real cracking or anything.

Thanks again for the help everyone, I'll post another update when I get it fixed.

did you ever fix the problem? I have similar poblems myself.

[myred318i]

My $.02. First off, even though your subframe bushings are OK, check the PitmanArms a.k.a. the dogbones in the rear. If you can wiggle them with your bare hands, and see that they're blown, replace them. It will make a HUGE improvement on the wandering issue.

2nd - Get your front end off the ground on jack stands and have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth while you're underneath and watch all the steering components in action. You can tell which bushings the slop is coming from, and most likely a combination of a few. I did this a couple of weeks ago, and my drag links were just slightly loose at the connection to the tie rods. I tightened those and cut a little slop out. I can see some slop where the idler arm connects to the box, but I can't get the nut any tighter. I think if I could get it cinched a little bit, steering would be very much improved.