E34 M5 Touring Low End Pulls in 3rd and 4th gear, you think the torque is ok?

[///Manuel]

I did a couple of pulls last night, the car seemed to pull ok nothing spectacular, maybe some 3.6 or 3.8 owners can jump in.
Elevation was 5,400' and temps were around 60F or 15C.

Update: After disconnecting the battery to reset the ECU, the engine pulls consistently hard with no issues.

3rd gear pull
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LGtFaLbjoc

... and 4th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8GKPJm7-WQ

[screwbiedoo15]

I've never driven an m5 so I can't really comment on whether it's normal for your car. But I almost think my 535i would pull like that in those gears till like maybe 4,000rpm (though I haven't driven it in 2 months so I may just be imagining it to be quicker than it really is).

[PorscheH6]

You're pretty high up there...

[Gazman]

I have no idea, but it looked fine to me, considering the gears you were using for the speed you were going.

If you wanted to accelerate fast wouldnt you just down-shift ;) haha, get some vids of that baby in her high powerband

EDIT: LOL that is MPH, i thought i had looked at it wrong. That thing is going well fast

[russiankid]

I wish my speedo moved that fast. It only goes that fast when I don't have traction.

[screwbiedoo15]

I dunno, maybe my car doesn't move that quickly since most people think it's pretty fast (and my car is definitely no m5).

[NikosX]

Your car is healthy. Your elevation sucks.

[DIL]

I've never driven an m5 so I can't really comment on whether it's normal for your car. But I almost think my 535i would pull like that in those gears till like maybe 4,000rpm (though I haven't driven it in 2 months so I may just be imagining it to be quicker than it really is).

You're lucky to have power in the low RPMs. My car doesn't even try to open up till 3500.

[e30sd]

try not to put the car under full load at such a low rpm, your bottom end will thank you.

ask me how i know how (several muchos thousands of dollars later)

[slocar]

Never driven or ridden in a M5, but that seems very good to me.

[me78569]

looks fine for the revs that you are in but remember the vids cut out as soon at the s38 comes alive. that engine really wakes up past 4500 rpm.

[///Manuel]

" But I almost think my 535i would pull like that in those gears till like maybe 4,000rpm "

That's what I'm talking about, shouldn't be night and day? This is good feedback though, I feel like sometimes it's fine and sometimes it's sluggish...

I understand about putting the bottom end under stress. Those were not WOT pulls, they were done rolling on the throttle as speed increases.

However, when you are in first for example, we still start off easy down low and go, even in first I can feel a lack of torque sometimes. Unfortunately first is way too short to gauge, that's why I did higher gear runs.

[slocar]

" But I almost think my 535i would pull like that in those gears till like maybe 4,000rpm "

That's what I'm talking about, shouldn't be night and day? This is good feedback though, I feel like sometimes it's fine and sometimes it's sluggish...
He drives his 535 once every year or something, don't listen to him. You're doing 40-60 in 3rd, in a little over 3 seconds. A 535 takes a tick over 3, in 2nd gear! Quit worrying so much.

[screwbiedoo15]

" But I almost think my 535i would pull like that in those gears till like maybe 4,000rpm "

That's what I'm talking about, shouldn't be night and day? This is good feedback though, I feel like sometimes it's fine and sometimes it's sluggish...

I understand about putting the bottom end under stress. Those were not WOT pulls, they were done rolling on the throttle as speed increases.



If those weren't done at WOT then I retract my previous statement. I was thinking of my car at WOT and assumed you were doing it at WOT as well. I'm sure your car is still accelerating faster than mine would, I was just saying seemed similar to what my car could do (but like I've said before I could be wrong).


He drives his 535 once every year or something, don't listen to him. You're doing 40-60 in 3rd, in a little over 3 seconds. A 535 takes a tick over 3, in 2nd gear! Quit worrying so much.


Yes... because driving my car 4 months out of the year is once a year... It's true I don't have the luxury to drive it during the school year but I have it the whole summer and have owned the car for almost 4 years. I'd say I have a decent feel for it.

[///Manuel]

slocar, I understand what you are saying however I have experienced different throttle response behaviors at times (and that's obviously hard to capture on a video). My plugs and O2 sensor look way too rich and I was told the car was overfuelling at idle.
So it helps me to hear anybody's input regardless of how often they drive their car :D !

[93FIM5]

Seems normal to me especially considering our altitude here in Colorado, we need to get together sometime and see how huge a difference there is between a 3.8 and 3.6 M5. Looks to be a nice car man!

[Grush]

try not to put the car under full load at such a low rpm, your bottom end will thank you.

ask me how i know how (several muchos thousands of dollars later)


forgive my engrish, what do you mean by full load?


and why the video ends when the car begins to roar?

[///Manuel]

It means that you put a lot of strain doing a WOT run at lower rpm's.
It's basically the same thing as someone on a bike trying to run up a hill in too low of a gear, you'll burn up your legs...

I stopped where I stopped because I wanted to test out low end torque not high end power.
The high end power is just fine :D

Here is a healthy 3.6 pull at sea-level in 4th gear (NOT MY CAR).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbQ_EmX_WEQ

[ILoveMPower]

S38 bottom end does not like heavy throttle at low RPM'S! Be careful with these pulls!

[Grush]

Oh I got your point.

Yah, that's not recommended. But you were testing, so it's ok. If that's something that you can get anything like results from it.

"oh yah, my car pulls on lower gears..." lol.

[NikosX]

Your car is FINE. Trust me. Dont worry about the car running rich either. My car ran rich too and still put down PLENTY of power.

I walked away from Greg's built 3.7.

[///Manuel]

Then maybe we could use a custom tune?
I'm gonna try swapping a different chip to see if that makes any difference, I was hoping to find a stock chip but it looks like I need to buy a full ECU to get one.
I tried contacting Mark D'Sylva but he's been fairly busy.
What worries is the intermittent throttle response, sometimes it goes sometimes it doesn't, that's not normal.

[orientblue]

Your car seems fine...I understand you were trying to test low end torque but you should have been in second gear at that speed! From my experience, these motors love to rev esp when they come to life at 4k rpm's.

[525fourthew1n]

If anything, your problem is that the engine is barely broken in! 97,000 miles, pssssh :D

[NikosX]

Your car seems fine...I understand you were trying to test low end torque but you should have been in second gear at that speed! From my experience, these motors love to rev esp when they come to life at 4k rpm's.

Hows my baby doing?

[///Manuel]

There's definitely a problem. I had a hard time losing a Ford Escape at a light today, keeping revs under 4k, I should walk on them without even trying. I never felt that problem with my old E36 M3 and this car should be faster. Am I wrong?

[NikosX]

Manuel, you live in Denver. My brother has a 1988 Testarossa (9,xxx miles) and he lives in CO. Ive ridden in his car both in Denver AND in Scottsdale at sea-level.

Denver = "Oh wow that feels pretty damn quick and sounds beautiful."
Scottsdale = "HOLY F*CKING SHYTE!!!!"

Drive that bitch out to Bimmerfest. Then complain about power. And btw, ill say it again. Its an S38. It DOESN'T make torque below 4,000 rpm. My 535, felt just as fast below 4,000 rpm.

[screwbiedoo15]

Manuel, you live in Denver. My brother has a 1988 Testarossa (9,xxx miles) and he lives in CO. Ive ridden in his car both in Denver AND in Scottsdale at sea-level.

Denver = "Oh wow that feels pretty damn quick and sounds beautiful."
Scottsdale = "HOLY F*CKING SHYTE!!!!"

Drive that bitch out to Bimmerfest. Then complain about power. And btw, ill say it again. Its an S38. It DOESN'T make torque below 4,000 rpm. My 535, felt just as fast below 4,000 rpm.

Glad to hear someone doesn't think I'm completely crazy for what I said at the beginning of the thread (and in no way was I trying to imply my car was as fast an m5).

Like others have said I really think a big part of it is the altitude you're at. If you were to rev the car out, that escape would have been long gone.... :evil2

[///Manuel]

I understand what you are saying and agree with the elevation downside however that is true for all vehicles up here. What bothers me is that the pickup varies from time to time and sometimes it feels like I'm towing a boat. When I went for a run and made those videos, all gears were pulling hard and most people here seem to think that it's fine so that's good, at least that when it pulls, it can pull normally.

One thing that could happening is that at idle the plugs get soaked and the car bogs down until rpm's get high enough to burn the extra fuel. Diagnostics revealed that idle injector ontime is 4ms when it should be closer to 2. I'm not sure there is a problem with my ECU or its chip but as far as the chip is concerned we'll know in a few days when I receive a different one.

[Grim Reaper]

E34 M5s are quick but not sub 5 sec 0 to 60 so they will not completely dust other cars in a quick street run; however, if you keep your foot in it and start seeing speeds over 60 and 70 mph.... lots of cars cant hang.

I'd liken your 3.8 touring to Secretariat... not some dirt digging quarter horse.

[ILoveMPower]

There's definitely a problem. I had a hard time losing a Ford Escape at a light today, keeping revs under 4k, I should walk on them without even trying. I never felt that problem with my old E36 M3 and this car should be faster. Am I wrong?

Well there's your problem

The S38 is based on a race-engine, which when on a track will never see low RPM's, hence the fact the engine is quite reserved at lower RPM's but still torquey enough to get you going, and absolutely vicious about 4k! :buttrock

[attack eagle]

and the fact that your m5 touring has to be over 4000 lbs, since a sedan m5 weighs about that much and tourings add another 300-400 lbs

[antonch]

As long as there is enough oil pressure going WOT at low RPMs should be OK--this happens usually at 1500rpm or so. You go WOT at ~2000 so I don't see this being a problem.

You should rev that engine higher though, in general HP goes up with RPMs. You didn't even hit 6K!

[orientblue]

Hows my baby doing?

Hey Nic! She's doing just fine...Should be getting her back this week from the shop and I can't wait to drive her again! Should be like new again, flywheel/clutch/transmission/brakes/suspension oh boy I can't wait!

[///Manuel]

Just went through my second full tank of gas and I'm getting 16mpg (mostly highway), definitely something not right.

I have now checked:
- Valve clearances
- Plugs (new but sooty)
- Water temp sensor (500 Ohm hot, 2.9k Ohm cold)
- Fuel pressure
- Resonance flap
- Compression
- Air filter
- Grounds
- TPS (4.8k Ohm WOT, 2k Ohm idle)

I have replaced:
- New MAF
- New O2 Sensor (old one was black & sooty)
- New vacuum hoses
- Changed ECU chip (EAT and Landzer drive exactly the same)

- Ran some fuel injector cleaner
- Adjusted throttle bodies
- Cleaned crankshaft sensor
- No codes (Idle Injector ontime is 4ms, that's the only thing professional diagnosis gave me)

The car runs pretty much fine other than the fact it's down on power. It's not rough, idles ok
(slightly limpy but around 975rpm), starts quickly warm, takes a little bit longer (a couple of seconds) cold.

Emissions test:
HC GPM 0.9599 Limits 1.20 PASS
CO GPM 5.4993 Limits 15.00 PASS
CO2 GPM 530.4729
NOx GPM 0.1462 Limits 2.50 PASS

And that's what my plugs look like:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/manuelphoto/E34%20M5/plugsM5june.jpg

Poor thing ... :(

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/manuelphoto/E34%20M5/DSCF31972.jpg

[m60b30530i]

time to dyno

[///Manuel]

Yeah that's what I was thinking to do next.

[m60b30530i]

Yeah that's what I was thinking to do next.

or a compression test

[NikosX]

Manuel- Do a compression test. That will reveal anything. Im STILL convinced its your elevation. The difference between driving my old 850i in Albuquerque and in Phoenix was NIGHT and DAY. Car felt down 100 hp at 5000 feet.


Hey Nic! She's doing just fine...Should be getting her back this week from the shop and I can't wait to drive her again! Should be like new again, flywheel/clutch/transmission/brakes/suspension oh boy I can't wait!

Im so jealous. I want to see her! What did the transmission need? It was smooth and solid. I never experienced any synchro issues. Never ground EVER.

[///Manuel]

Compression test showed a variation of 3psi max between cylinders, I didn't do a leak down though but it was performed not that long ago by the previous owner and turned out fine.

I have driven many cars at this elevation (ranging from 5,000lbs+ SUV's to a full blown 2150lb race car). I even pulled out a few items from the car (spare/jack/tools/seats/etc.) to see if it was weight related and it didn't change the way the engine pulls below 4k. It basically feels like you are towing a boat. A friend of mine, who is a former BMW mechanic confirmed that the car should pull much harder.

I'm also wondering if the ECU is triggering the flap at the right times now that I think of it. While I was swapping the front end, I drove without my hood on and could see the flap working while moving (it also moves when reving it while stopped) but it doesn't mean that it's doing it at the right times.

[ASADcreation]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wSDm9ixcXg

[///Manuel]

I think I might be onto something, I heard the air pump coming on the other day as I was driving the car well after start-up, it shouldn't come on after more than a couple of minutes. I think my car isn't coming out of the cold cycle...

[orientblue]

Im so jealous. I want to see her! What did the transmission need? It was smooth and solid. I never experienced any synchro issues. Never ground EVER.[/quote]

The tranny was leaking some fluid so I told him to flush it..It also was sometimes hard to get into second gear. When we flushed it, only about half a quart of fluid came out with alot of metal shavings. At that point we knew it needed to be freshened up. Basically it was the second gear synchro and dog teeth that had worn and caused the shavings..so we changed all the synchros and dog teeth and put a UUC short shifter in. Shifts incredible! And porsche big red brakes on the front ftw!!!

[NikosX]

Omg... Must haz pictarz of brakes.

[orientblue]

Omg... Must haz pictarz of brakes.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/orientblue/911brakes4-1.jpg?t=1227568519

[NikosX]

Vre malaka! Does it stop better? Or should I ask how many times you've busted your teeth on the steering wheel?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wSDm9ixcXg

BTW that isn't an M5. That is an M5 cluster in a 525i.

[orientblue]

haha malaka-very nice!

Hells yeah it stops better! No teeth marks on the steering wheel yet either lol...ok enough thread jacking here!

[Grim Reaper]

^ post #41 doesnt appear to be an M5 since it doesnt have the oil temp gauge below the tach, still it did sound good

[VentoGT]

Then maybe we could use a custom tune?
I'm gonna try swapping a different chip to see if that makes any difference, I was hoping to find a stock chip but it looks like I need to buy a full ECU to get one.
I tried contacting Mark D'Sylva but he's been fairly busy.
What worries is the intermittent throttle response, sometimes it goes sometimes it doesn't, that's not normal.

All M5s run rich as piss at idle. I hope you figure it out, but you need to go to www.m5board.com (http://www.m5board.com) to learn more. Mostly Europeans there, therefore mostly 3.8s and can probably tell you more about your problems. These motors don't pull big torque from lower RPMs, the engines were designed for High RPM horsepower.

Also, re: gas mileage, if you are hoofing it 16MPG is not out of the ordinary. I get 12-13 in town when I push it, sometimes lower.

Good luck.

[///Manuel]

I agree with you to some extent regarding the power curve but the torque band on the 3.8 shows that above 2k the car should move.

After testing my car's acceleration some more, it seems that I get the most pick-up when the car is semi-warm (oil temp around 75F). The throttle is quite responsive and the torque ok. Then as the car gets warmer I feel it gets slower kind of like a heat soak problem or like I'm running with the AC on. That behavior has been fairly consistent now. I have disconnected the air pump for testing purposes but that hasn't had any effect on how the car drive besides the absence of the cold morning pump startup.

I will check my air intake sensor to make sure it's working ok, I haven't checked that one yet. I have a feeling I'm very close!

[NikosX]

I suggest you find a 525i to line up with. If you dust him, stop taking sugar pills.

[///Manuel]

I might have the edge on a 525i but it doesn't make it any more fun to drive!
It feels like the A/C is on kinda thing.

[A.W.O.L]

Do a 62-125 pull if you can. If its anything over 14 seconds, something needs to be checked.

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb2aJEn_Mtg

Mine does/did it in 12 flat.

But to help you gauge your (low end) times, heres a chart from a 3.8 back in 94.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f151/SpeedingHatch/accelchart.jpg

edit: based on your first vid: you seem on par from 40-60 taking a little over 3 seconds

[///Manuel]

Thanks a million!

EDIT: I just realized something, when you suddenly accelerate the flap closes and you feel a surge in acceleration,
however when you roll on the throttle the flap doesn't close and the acceleration is smoother, not as sudden
which I might have interpreted as a lack of torque? I guess it's more of a throttle response affair.

Looking at my vids
in 4th 40-60 = 6secs 60-80 = 5.5secs
in 3rd 20-40 = 4.4secs 40-60 = 3.8secs

which pretty much matches the charts above! That's really good news since my runs were done at a mile high
and that my car is supposed to be heavier than the sedan... sweet!

Where did you find those charts?

[///Manuel]

Went and did some more runs last night and unfortunately got some inconsistent times :(
My 30-50mph in 3rd looks to be around 4.4secs which is 0.4secs slower than what it should be.
In my 3rd gear pull video, in an earlier post, you can see that my 40-60mph is around 3.8secs which is excellent, however last night, I only managed 4.2 secs, the car never took off.
Like I mentioned before sometimes it runs well (mostly when the car is colder) but most of the time it's sluggish. With the colder temps it should really move but it seems not to help, really odd :help

My local mechanic lead me to think that I had a software issue, swapping chips made no difference, it feels like the car is ignoring the chips fuel mappings and may be running full rich?

My next steps are:
- Plugs
- TPS
- Water Temp Sensor
- ECU
- Injectors
- Ignition Leads

Any thoughts on those? Anything you can think of I could be missing?

[TouringDan]

Went and did some more runs last night and unfortunately got some inconsistent times :(
My 30-50mph in 3rd looks to be around 4.4secs which is 0.4secs slower than what it should be.
In my 3rd gear pull video, in an earlier post, you can see that my 40-60mph is around 3.8secs which is excellent, however last night, I only managed 4.2 secs, the car never took off.
Like I mentioned before sometimes it runs well (mostly when the car is colder) but most of the time it's sluggish. With the colder temps it should really move but it seems not to help, really odd :help

My local mechanic lead me to think that I had a software issue, swapping chips made no difference, it feels like the car is ignoring the chips fuel mappings and may be running full rich?


Really - I think you're turning into a cybercondriac in regards to your car. It's off by 4/10ths depending on the run. There are myriad things that can cause this, including operator error. If the car was running full-rich, your emissions test would be in the tank and your cats would be toast. The "colder air" argument is mostly nill because the combination of the MAF, chip, and intake-air-temp sensor will all compensate and make it run close to the same as it always has. The cars that adore colder air are the carbureted hot-rods that don't have anything to sense the denser air and tweak the mix.

You can't leave a Ford Escape and you're shifting under 4k? Well as they say: "That THAR is yer problem!" in probably more ways than one. If you are shifting the car before it come on the cams and reaches peak efficiency while being WOT, then you're leaving the majority of your power on the table.

Just stop obsessing, enjoy the car and don't be afraid to take her over 4k. Everything I've read in this thread points to that engine working as expected given its age.

[///Manuel]

I would love to think it's all in my head!
I did multiple runs to ensure it's just not an odd ball.
Most of them last night were "slow" so it was easy to pick out a bad one :) !
4 tenths is a lot, if you were to drive the car, you'd say the same thing, it feels like you are towing a boat.

I think you have a good point regarding emissions, my car ran rich but it passed "fairly" easily so fueling is probably ok and I may be having an electrical problem.

I realize the car is old but my 1975 2002 was older and ran much better :D

[TouringDan]

Ok - look at it this way. From your previous post:

I have now checked:
- Valve clearances
- Plugs (new but sooty)
- Water temp sensor (500 Ohm hot, 2.9k Ohm cold)
- Fuel pressure
- Resonance flap
- Compression
- Air filter
- Grounds
- TPS (4.8k Ohm WOT, 2k Ohm idle)

I have replaced:
- New MAF
- New O2 Sensor (old one was black & sooty)
- New vacuum hoses
- Changed ECU chip (EAT and Landzer drive exactly the same)

- Ran some fuel injector cleaner
- Adjusted throttle bodies
- Cleaned crankshaft sensor
- No codes (Idle Injector ontime is 4ms, that's the only thing professional diagnosis gave me)

The car runs pretty much fine other than the fact it's down on power. It's not rough, idles ok
(slightly limpy but around 975rpm), starts quickly warm, takes a little bit longer (a couple of seconds) cold.

Emissions test:
HC GPM 0.9599 Limits 1.20 PASS
CO GPM 5.4993 Limits 15.00 PASS
CO2 GPM 530.4729
NOx GPM 0.1462 Limits 2.50 PASSYou have checked or replaced just about everything. Your emissions are very clean - especially your NOx and CO. Again - the 4/10ths is NOT a big deal unless you are a drag-racer and can consistently pull the same ET. 4/10ths can be attributed to a dragging brake caliper, slightly slipping clutch, crappy tires, the stars not being aligned correctly, just about anything.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc.... Your engine is fine.

It's your money and time - but I'd be spending it driving the car and enjoying it after looking at all the information above.

[NikosX]

Send it to me for a week. Ill tell you if its not running right. :)

[///Manuel]

A friend of mine, who worked as a BMW mechanic and drove hundreds of bimmers (including one euro M5), told me the exact same thing.
Still, it drives a lot better than when I first got it but is not quite there yet.
It's been warmer today and the car was driving fine.
It's just so frustrating to have a different throttle response every time you take the car for a ride, drives me nuts.
It's like do I have full power or should I downshift twice to pass?

[NikosX]

I find this so strange. How many M5s have you driven? 3.8 or 3.6?

[///Manuel]

My friend has driven one 3.8 and many 3.6's, I personally have only driven mine :D
I'm not complaining about its power when it runs well, on the contrary, it pulls like nuts, but when it's slow, it's slow and it literally feels like I'm towing something, like it's being held back or climbing a hill, you get the picture.

EDIT: Since its behavior seems to vary with temperature, I wonder if the federalization wiring (tapping into the intake temp sensor) could have something to do with it.

[Achtzylinder]

Manuel--I have a 3.8, about 83k, and it absolutely has moods, but it is ripping silk on cams, where it likes to run. The resonance flap was designed to bridge the gap to get to the torque above 3500 rpm, and 1st gear is the best way to get there. There is also a switch at wot that signals certain changes. These cars are not casually fast, it even takes extra effort to push all six of those throttles to wot. I can drive around town all day in 3rd gear smooth as any auto, but you need to kick up the revs to go. If you are still concerned, get a dyno, there are plently posted at M5board, and compare, and notice the torque curve and how it dips right where you are trying to make it work. BTW, at wot and redline, 2nd @70; 3rd @104 and pm for the rest, I was on a track I swear.

When I first got this I almost got killed a few times pullling out in traffic and shifting too early and then trying to get the hell out of the way, minivans seemd like porsches, it was depressing. Take it out to the mountains and let it rip, keep the revs above 3500, and set your limiter because it won't feel anywhere near as fast as it is. And I hate to tell you but 16 mpg city driving is about right, but highway, even on it should be mid 20's or higher.

[///Manuel]

Thanks for your feedback, I guess at this point, it's not critical but it sure helped me know the car better.
I cannot believe how much I've learned in the past few months, greatly thanks to the knowledge on this board,
and I still feel there's a lot left to learn about these cars.
I wish I had a spare DME to play with. I will reset mine and try driving hard to see what happens.

[FalconBMW]

I think I'm running rich too. I know I only have a 525i, but somtimes I'll hit a sweet spot when I floor it at a certain speed and rpm (I'll have to pay more attention), and it seems to take off like a banshee. I'm going to say it's somewhere in second gear probably. Normally it's slow as molasses.

[///Manuel]

Disconnected the battery last night, waited a good hour and went through the DME learning phase. The car drove normally with all torque there. It was a warm night.
It sure feels good when it drives this well.