Looking for S54 F/I - Reliable, Quiet, Powerful

[Ahheck01]

Starting with a 2004 M3.

This car will be driven all the time, in all but snow and heavy rain, so reliability is important to me. I'd sacrifice a bit of power for sake of reliability (i.e. sticking with stage 2 at 600hp rather than stage 3 at 800hp if stage 2 is far more reliable).

Also, I'd like to keep the car as quiet as possible. I love the sound of the AA Gen 4 exhaust, and wouldn't want it much louder if possible. Also, no loud PFFFFT by the blow-off valve, and the less SC/Turbo whine the better. I'd like to have cats to prevent the bad exhaust smell as well if I can, so I'd need recommendation on headers, cats, a rasp remover of some sort, and top it off with the AA Gen 4 exhaust.

As far as power, the smoother the delivery the better. I've always had a thing for 600hp, but the delivery is more important than the number. I love the characteristic of the S52 ESS TSSC where the torque curve is flat, and the HP is a straight line angling up the whole way. Dying off above 6k sucks.

Lastly, cost. Though not a huge factor, I'm not interested in the $25k packages. I don't want to do a bunch of custom work, so I'll pay a bit of a premium for well-engineered kits.

That's a lot of wants, so let's talk about what options are out there that seem to fit into that, and we'll see what compromises need to be made.

-Evan

[5mall5nail5]

Although your requests are reasonable you have absolutely no options heh. HPF is the only people making that kind of power and its not cheap. You can go with a CF AA kit but the power won't be there and it won't be flat or early in the rev ranges.

[bennyfizzle]

HPF or gtfo

[GG///M3]

AA's new asa setup should be close to 500rwhp while keeping the stock ecu/no piggy back setup. Its pretty much the same setup that placed 3rd over all in the 1 Lap of America this year. For 5k more you can get a HPF stage 1 that doesnt really have that kind of track record yet(yet being the key to those that may start a flame fest).

[Ahheck01]

AA's new asa setup should be close to 500rwhp while keeping the stock ecu/no piggy back setup. Its pretty much the same setup that placed 3rd over all in the 1 Lap of America this year. For 5k more you can get a HPF stage 1 that doesnt really have that kind of track record yet(yet being the key to those that may start a flame fest).
What does ASA mean? All I see is one SC kit on their website.

There seems to be quite a following for HPF, but I've also heard that it's dumb to go stage 1 - that stage 2 is a no-brainer.

Then that gets pretty pricey, so before we go there, let's explore other options.

-Evan

[GG///M3]

What does ASA mean? All I see is one SC kit on their website.

There seems to be quite a following for HPF, but I've also heard that it's dumb to go stage 1 - that stage 2 is a no-brainer.

Then that gets pretty pricey, so before we go there, let's explore other options.

-Evan

Asa i type of blower that is not what you for sale on there yet. when you go to there website there is alittle of about. I think AA posted dyno sheet on it last week and it put out 47xwhp. The cool thing about the blower is its supposed to make boost sooner then a c38 or a vortech blower it also doesnt spin below 1800rpms. Its bacially the same blower unit being used in the alpina b7.

[mike radowski]

What does ASA mean? All I see is one SC kit on their website.

There seems to be quite a following for HPF, but I've also heard that it's dumb to go stage 1 - that stage 2 is a no-brainer.

Then that gets pretty pricey, so before we go there, let's explore other options.

-Evan

The new ASA based E46 SC kits are nice for those looking for a significant power bump. I can get you a quote on one if you are interested. You don't have many options at the moment for a high-hp turbo setup besides a HPF kit or a custom build through AA or us.

-Mike

[PathosRx]

What does ASA mean? All I see is one SC kit on their website.

There seems to be quite a following for HPF, but I've also heard that it's dumb to go stage 1 - that stage 2 is a no-brainer.

Then that gets pretty pricey, so before we go there, let's explore other options.

-Evan

You know I thought about Stage II as being a no brainer but then I thought what would be wrong with installing a Stage 1 kit and then a decent w/a kit and running 93 plus w/a at ten psi or so? Stage 2 also allows one to run 13 psi on w/a making slightly less power. Race gas lets one run 13psi on Stage 1. I don't see how cost effective it is to spend $2500 for a w/a kit and less aggressive timing to run 13 psi when the power is still less than a race gas Stage 1 tune. Typically most people run less boost on w/a than with race gas anyways on turbocharged engines ...

[Ahheck01]

You know I thought about Stage II as being a no brainer but then I thought what would be wrong with installing a Stage 1 kit and then a decent w/a kit and running 93 plus w/a at ten psi or so? Stage 2 also allows one to run 13 psi on w/a making slightly less power. Race gas lets one run 13psi on Stage 1. I don't see how cost effective it is to spend $2500 for a w/a kit and less aggressive timing to run 13 psi when the power is still less than a race gas Stage 1 tune. Typically most people run less boost on w/a than with race gas anyways on turbocharged engines ...

I have no idea what you just said. W/a? Aggressive timing? I'm not up on the f/i lingo.

I should mention that I'd like to assume pump gas (91 is premium in Iowa) only, if possible. I just want to gas it and go, not worrying and race fuel or methanol, etc.

-Evan

[pbonsalb]

I am beginning to think about my next car and found this thread interesting. I have an estimated 400+ rwhp centrifugal supercharged 99M3 and am not bored yet, but will probably move up a generation or more in a year or two to get a more comfortable and modern daily driver.

A low mileage E46M3 for $35k would be nice, but not fast enough or suspended well enough, so I would have to spend $12k for a stage II supercharger, $1k for a clutch, and $2k for a suspension. I would then have $50k in a 4 year old 3400 lb car, but probably 475 rwhp and 350 lbs rwtq.

A 135i with a few options and $5k in performance upgrades would be a $45k new car that weighs 3500? lbs and has probably 400 rwhp and more than 400 lbs rwtq. Add $5k and 100-200 lbs for a 335i. I drove in a modded 335i -- nice looking and performing car but it felt like it had no soul.

A near stripper current generation M3 at $56k is starting to look more reasonable even if it has only about 360 rwhp and 260 rwtq. Its still far faster stock than a stock E46M3/135/335 though not as fast as modified versions of the same. I would have to wait a couple of years for power mods if starting at that price.

[Neil]

I ran with Catesby Jones -- who was driving AA's prototype E46 M3 with the ASA supercharger -- in this year's One Lap. It's a very nice set-up and had nary a hiccup. And the car was FAST.

Neil

[PathosRx]

I have no idea what you just said. W/a? Aggressive timing? I'm not up on the f/i lingo.

I should mention that I'd like to assume pump gas (91 is premium in Iowa) only, if possible. I just want to gas it and go, not worrying and race fuel or methanol, etc.

-Evan

HPF kits are tuned on 91 octane. W/A = water/alcohol injection. Adding timing is a way to make power when the octane rating is increased when one is running the maximum boost pressure allowable for the compression.

[Ahheck01]

HPF kits are tuned on 91 octane. W/A = water/alcohol injection. Adding timing is a way to make power when the octane rating is increased when one is running the maximum boost pressure allowable for the compression.
Ah, so that's a separate, automatic system sort of add-on? Is that the methanol thing that gives you an extra 130rwhp?

If I had the stage 2 methanol deal, is there an on/off switch that allows me to use methanol when I want the extra power, and not when I don't? Do I fill up the methanol tank at a gas station, or how does that work? When methanol is on, how fast is it consumed relative to a tank of gas?

I'm intrigued - almost enough to spend an extra $5k for the HPF, depending on the answers to the above.

But also on more details on the ASA AA supercharger. Where can I get more details on that? What would the dyno look like for that, and what is the cost?

-Evan

[jonesmechanical]

I am beginning to think about my next car and found this thread interesting. I have an estimated 400+ rwhp centrifugal supercharged 99M3 and am not bored yet, but will probably move up a generation or more in a year or two to get a more comfortable and modern daily driver.

A low mileage E46M3 for $35k would be nice, but not fast enough or suspended well enough, so I would have to spend $12k for a stage II supercharger, $1k for a clutch, and $2k for a suspension. I would then have $50k in a 4 year old 3400 lb car, but probably 475 rwhp and 350 lbs rwtq.

A 135i with a few options and $5k in performance upgrades would be a $45k new car that weighs 3500? lbs and has probably 400 rwhp and more than 400 lbs rwtq. Add $5k and 100-200 lbs for a 335i. I drove in a modded 335i -- nice looking and performing car but it felt like it had no soul.

A near stripper current generation M3 at $56k is starting to look more reasonable even if it has only about 360 rwhp and 260 rwtq. Its still far faster stock than a stock E46M3/135/335 though not as fast as modified versions of the same. I would have to wait a couple of years for power mods if starting at that price.

Get an e39 m5. Weight wise, within a passenger of difference. Very high soul content. More displacement than the new m3, more torque 1/2 the price and you will own it for the 3 year depreciation associated with almost any new BMW. The equity kept thought buying this modern classic you could afford to "waste" some money with HPF on their wide body kit, oh sorry, no I mean their turbo kit.

[5mall5nail5]

HPF kits are tuned on 91 octane. W/A = water/alcohol injection. Adding timing is a way to make power when the octane rating is increased when one is running the maximum boost pressure allowable for the compression.

Thats not exactly true. Boost doesn't come close to the cylinder pressure when igniting the mixture. Timing advance increases PPP (peak pressure point) a lot more than boost pressure would. Timing and boost are basically two approaches to making power - it really depends on what spool characteristic your project is after. Once that is established you'll realize whether you'll be adding timing for power or adding boost. It boils down to IAT, compressor maps, and engine/head characteristics. Adding boost to the mixture only inflates the PPP so. Adding timing can be dangerous and inflate the PPP too high or temperatures getting too hot that you start knocking, which is an instantaneous PPP spike sometimes 3 or more times greater than normal complete combustion.

[Ahheck01]

Based on pump gas (91), which would you guys say most closely would meet the goals of the OP:

-) Active Autowerke / ASA Powered Gen 5 Supercharger System - $12,900 - 470rwhp

-) HorsepowerFreaks Stage 2 Turbo - $19,000 - 560rwhp

[///M3Augy]

AA.

[GG///M3]

AA.


+1 It has also held its own on the track already, and you would have boat loads of cash to do other kool mods.:cool

[95RogueM3]

Based on pump gas (91), which would you guys say most closely would meet the goals of the OP:

-) HorsepowerFreaks Stage 2 Turbo - $19,000 - 560rwhp
Given your requirements, the turbo really isnt an option. It doesnt meet the following requirements:

1) Turbo Spooling Noise
2) Blow-Off Sound
3) Power isn't linear with RPMs
4) Cost is nearly 50% more than the AA kit.

If I had the money to spend, I would go with the turbo kit, but I am not seekin to avoid any of the above requirements.

[mike radowski]

Given your requirements, the turbo really isnt an option. It doesnt meet the following requirements:

1) Turbo Spooling Noise
2) Blow-Off Sound
3) Power isn't linear with RPMs
4) Cost is nearly 50% more than the AA kit.

If I had the money to spend, I would go with the turbo kit, but I am not seekin to avoid any of the above requirements.

Agreed. The turbo car would be a huge power increase over the SC kit but it seems like you are looking for a mild mannered street car by your requirements. These are few and far between at the 600hp level. The AA kit is well engineered and you will be happy with the fit/finish of the kit. If you are looking for more you are stepping into turbo territory and you need to compromise.

[5mall5nail5]

Yeah 600 out of a s/c is asking a lot for a kit. I think if you ran a turbo setup you would be surprised as how reasonably quiet they can be. I am sure HPF or someone like Mike could modify the intake manifold to recirculate the boost rather than blow off.

[BIGTHUNDERPERFO]

Nos

[spdu4ea]

Are you guys counting header/highflow cat/exhaust in the price of the AA kit?

As for the HPF kit, it doesn't sound like it will meet the OP goals. They only had one customer run a cat, and it lowered the power dramatically (he ended up going catless). Plus there are two bov's so recirculation would be much more difficult (I think one bov is right by the turbo).


As for buying stage 1 and then running your own w/a injection kit -- you still would be making the same power since you'd be running on the stage 1 fuel/boost/timing maps

[highboostingm3]

There is a company that I have read about on the e46 fanatics and m3forums sites. They have S/C kits for the e46 m3 like the CF550, CF600, CF650, CF750, etc. I believe. However at some point they require a built motor.

Evosport teamed up with VFE and used a T-trim blower to make some serious power. There is a thread on that. VFE might have that available as a "kit", however it used a built motor also.

If you want big power with an S/C, you will have to build the motor.

Otherwise go HPF S2.

I have an estimated 400+ rwhp centrifugal supercharged 99M3 and am not bored yet
Wuss. :stickoutt

You know I thought about Stage II as being a no brainer but then I thought what would be wrong with installing a Stage 1 kit and then a decent w/a kit and running 93 plus w/a at ten psi or so? Stage 2 also allows one to run 13 psi on w/a making slightly less power. Race gas lets one run 13psi on Stage 1. I don't see how cost effective it is to spend $2500 for a w/a kit and less aggressive timing to run 13 psi when the power is still less than a race gas Stage 1 tune. Typically most people run less boost on w/a than with race gas anyways on turbocharged engines ...
You can't add custom things to the HPF kit for more power. You can't change the psi level. You can't change the tune. Everything is already preprogrammed in the HPF AEM EMS so that people don't do stupid things like this, blow up their motor and then blame HPF.

[Ahheck01]

Alright, guys, I think I'm going to enter the F/I arena with the ASA charger from AA. 470 to the wheels isn't too far off what I was going for, and the 600 crank hp was a bit of an arbitrary number anyway. If I want bigger numbers after I've had the AA for a while, I'll probably rebuild the motor and upgrade the internals significantly to handle ascinine amounts of power.

Thanks for the suggestions! My next question is how to make an M3 with the ASA SC as quiet as possible without killing power, but unless that's answered here, I'll probably start a new thread for that as I get closer to actually doing it.

-Evan

[95RogueM3]

My next question is how to make an M3 with the ASA SC as quiet as possible without killing power, but unless that's answered here, I'll probably start a new thread for that as I get closer to actually doing it.

-Evan
Reinstall the stock exhaust. You will be down on power and noise as well. Obviously it will be noisier under the hood with a blower, but your exhaust note shouldn't be drastically different with the addition of the ASA blower.

Alot of what you are looking for is mutually exclusive, ex: Alot of power without noise.

[5mall5nail5]

Reinstall the stock exhaust. You will be down on power and noise as well. Obviously it will be noisier under the hood with a blower, but your exhaust note shouldn't be drastically different with the addition of the ASA blower.

Alot of what you are looking for is mutually exclusive, ex: Alot of power without noise.

Actually the ASA superchargers are damn near silent. I am not exaggerating, they are QUIET. They're used by Alpina, they're not allowed to make a lot of noise :) They're clutched so they don't run at idle and when they do run they're very very quiet.

Trust me - you won't hear a thing.

[Ahheck01]

Excellent. What's the quietest headers/high perf. cats/mid-pipes/rasp remover/exhaust system I can get?

-Evan

[95RogueM3]

Actually the ASA superchargers are damn near silent. I am not exaggerating, they are QUIET. They're used by Alpina, they're not allowed to make a lot of noise :)
Yeah, I may have been talking out of my ass. :stickoutt I was just basing my comments on my experience hearing Vortech blowers.

[5mall5nail5]

Yeah ASA are way different than Vortechs. I've put an ASA kit on an E46 330 and then had my own custom setup with an ASA headunit.

[MC28REPSOL]

i would say VF is the way to go.

Stage 2: 8.0-8.5 lbs Boost, 570hp, 380 ft lbs Torque with 100 Octane Race Gas 600hp and 400 ft lbs torque
Stage 3: Boost Increased to 11-12 PSI, lower compression (Head Gasket swap) & new GIAC Software flash. Est 650hp on 91 octane and 710hp on 100 octane.

if your interested in a VF Kit ...i can get you a 5% discount.

**Note** Stage II does require headers & hi-flow cats.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

From what i gather in your first post. The ASA kit will provide you with everything you are looking for.

[Ahheck01]

From what i gather in your first post. The ASA kit will provide you with everything you are looking for.

Sounds good. Do you have any insight as to how I can make it as quiet as possible, with the least rasp possible from the exhaust? For a N/A M3, the AA Gen 4 is my favorite sound, and I don't necessarily want it to be much louder - I do need high-flow cats, and preferably a rasp remover of some sort.

Also, I take it the AA clutch/flywheel upgrade for $3k will be sufficient to handle the power?

Other than the standard subframe reinforcements, what can I do to prepare the car for the extra power?

Thoughts?

-Evan

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Sounds good. Do you have any insight as to how I can make it as quiet as possible, with the least rasp possible from the exhaust? For a N/A M3, the AA Gen 4 is my favorite sound, and I don't necessarily want it to be much louder - I do need high-flow cats, and preferably a rasp remover of some sort.

Also, I take it the AA clutch/flywheel upgrade for $3k will be sufficient to handle the power?

Other than the standard subframe reinforcements, what can I do to prepare the car for the extra power?

Thoughts?

-Evan


Well at low rpm's and idle the charger is the most silent charger i have heard. It also has the choice of being ran with the BOV venting to the atmosphere or recirculated (will be the more quiet choice).

As far as exhaust, it will really be up to you. You will probably want to go with aftermarket headers and cats but i would recommend adding a custom resonator to keep the car quieter without sacrificing power.
-Although our kit can be ran with the stock headers and exhaust system there is power to be made by going aftermarket.

Yes our clutch and flywheel is the same kit we ran at the One Lap of America and its still installed. That would be my recommendation as far as clutch and flywheel goes.

Although the rear sub frame issues are rare we have seen them on stock cars as well. So i would recommend going that route for at least a piece of mind in regards to the rear.

Basically our kit can be installed on a stock car all other mods are up to the end user.

I do highly recommend going with our upgraded fan clutch and thermostat as well.

[Ahheck01]

So, how's this:

F/I: Active Autowerke ASA Gen V SC - $12,900
Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $950
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Engine Software: Active Autowerke Software - $700
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230
Clutch/Flywheel: Active Autowerke High Performance Kit - $3000

I guess, coming from several e36's, I'm not familiar with all of the components of the e46 exhaust system. Is this right:

Aftermarket Headers -> Aftermarket High Flow Cats -> Mid-Pipe/Resonator/RaspX -> Aftermarket Exhaust

If so, I know that AA has headers - will there be any difference in performance or sound vs. the SS? The SS has metal Cats that match up to it - is there a high-flow cat that meets up with the AA headers? What's the ideal quieting resonator or midpipe that wouldn't decrease performance?

Thanks for your time,

-Evan

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

So, how's this:

F/I: Active Autowerke ASA Gen V SC - $12,900
Headers: SuperSprint Stepped Headers - $2750
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $1900
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $950
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Pulleys: EvoSport Audiophile Pulleys - $260
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Engine Software: Active Autowerke Software - $700
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230
Clutch/Flywheel: Active Autowerke High Performance Kit - $3000

I guess, coming from several e36's, I'm not familiar with all of the components of the e46 exhaust system. Is this right:

Aftermarket Headers -> Aftermarket High Flow Cats -> Mid-Pipe/Resonator/RaspX -> Aftermarket Exhaust

If so, I know that AA has headers - will there be any difference in performance or sound vs. the SS? The SS has metal Cats that match up to it - is there a high-flow cat that meets up with the AA headers? What's the ideal quieting resonator or midpipe that wouldn't decrease performance?

Thanks for your time,

-Evan


Well you can go with our headers (less expensive) and our headers bolt up to the stock mid section. So you would need a metallic cat that bolts up to the stock headers and mid pipes.
There would be no need for pulleys with the kit.
No need to purchase additional software as it is included with the kit

You are correct on the exhaust components.

Also i can assist you with pricing on all of our parts. So it will not be as bad as listed above.

As far as the resonator i would say to see how you like the sound of all of the components combined. If you would still like it more quiet you can add one in. (although i would not recommend modifying your rasp x-pipe if you go that route). Maybe try headers and metallic cats and see how you like the sound, if too loud add a resonator (custom) at a muffler shop to quiet it down.

[GG///M3]

sounds like you should go for it.

[highboostingm3]

Go AA ASA or go home.



(new self-proclaimed AA ASA fan)

[Ahheck01]

Alright then - my first go will look like this:

F/I: Active Autowerke ASA Gen V SC - $12,900
Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $960
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230
Clutch/Flywheel: Active Autowerke High Performance Kit - $3000


Can I upgrade the radiator as well? I've heard good things about the Zionsville M3 Competition Cooling Package with the offset fan - would that negate the need for the Fan Clutch? Would that be better or worse? Looking for maximum reliability and longevity of all parts here.

-Evan

[highboostingm3]

Alright then - my first go will look like this:

F/I: Active Autowerke ASA Gen V SC - $12,900
Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $960
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230
Clutch/Flywheel: Active Autowerke High Performance Kit - $3000

Total = $23,000 :eyecrazy
No Installation. :eyecrazy

Can I upgrade the radiator as well? I've heard good things about the Zionsville M3 Competition Cooling Package with the offset fan - would that negate the need for the Fan Clutch? Would that be better or worse? Looking for maximum reliability and longevity of all parts here.

-Evan
:wow

[Ahheck01]

:wow
Haha, it's always been my dream to buy a great car like the e46 M3 and spare no expense in modding it EXACTLY how I want it, and I'm finally getting to the point where I can do so. You think that's bad - that's just the go mods. Here's the full list:

Exterior - $7350
Headlights: OEM Bi-Xenon's with Quad Bixenon Retrofit - $1500
DDE's: Predator Orion V2 - $140
Tint: 30% all around, 90% on windshield for UV protection - $400
Lip: Euro-Spec Carbon Fiber Hamann Competition Lip - $250
Spoiler/Trunk Lid: Vorsteiner V-CSL Boot Lid Carbon Fiber - $1300
Hood: Vorsteiner VRS Vented Race Hood - $1650
Roof: Vorsteiner V-CSL Carbon Fiber Roof (Sunroof) - $1400
Kidneys: Carbon Fiber - $190
Diffuser: Vorsteiner Carbon Fiber VCSL Rear Diffuser - $520

Suspension - $3900
Shock/Spring/Coilovers: AST 4200 Coilovers - $2300
Sways: Hotchkis - $395
Strut Brace: Vorshlag - $325
Control Arms: OEM
LCAB's: UUC - $240
Trailing Arms: OEM
RTAB's: Stock with Vorshlag Limiters - $45
RSM's: Meyle HD - $55
Camber Plates: Vorshlag Street - $340
Front/Rear Subframe Reinforcements: Turner Kit - $200

Drivetrain - $23,000
F/I: Active Autowerke ASA Gen V SC - $12,900
Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $960
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230
Clutch/Flywheel: Active Autowerke High Performance Kit - $3000

Wheels, Tires, Brakes - $18,000
Street Wheels: Kinesis F110 19x10 - $5000
Street Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 2 in 255/35/19 - $1400
Track Wheels: 19x9.5 OE CSL's - $2200
Track Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup in 265/30/19 - $1600
Rear Brakes: Brembo GT 355mm w/4 pot calipers - $3500
Front Brakes: Brembo GT 380mm w/6 pot calipers - $4300
Lines: Brembo SS Lines - Included

Interior - $250
Seats: OEM Cinnamon
Shift Knob: Momo Tall Anatomic Black - $50
EBrake Lever: Undecided - $50
Pedals: Ultimate Pedals Anti-Slip - $150
Aftermarket Gauges: (working on it)

Nav/Tech - $11,900
Head Unit: Alpine IVA-W505 - $1100
Head Unit Accessories:
- 6-Disc DVD/MP3/ACC/WMA/DivX Changer (DHA-S690) - $450
- Rear View Camera System (HCE-C105) - $220
- Bluetooth Interface Module (KCE-350BT) - $230
Components: Hybrid Audio Legatia 841-3 Pro - $1150
Subwoofer: Image Dynamics ID MAX 12 v.3 D4 - $450
Amps: Zapco DC Reference:
- 350.2 (for 1") - $700
- 350.2 (for 4") - $700
- 360.4 (Bridged for 8") - $940
- 750.2 (Bridged for 12") - $1100
Sound Deadening: SecondSkin Audio - $1500
Navigation: Garmin Nuvi 880 - $900
Radar/Laser Detection: Valentine 1 - $450
Laser Jammer: Blinder M45 - $700
Radio Scanner: Uniden BC996T - $550
CB Radio: Uniden PRO520XL - $70
Alarm: Viper 7900 - $360
Alarm Accessories: Window Control - $60 ; Dual Zone Radar - $50 ; Glass Break Sensor - $40 ; Tilt Sensor - $35 ; Backup Battery - $35


Total: $64,400

[highboostingm3]

^^I am just saying. You posted this:


seems to be quite a following for HPF, but I've also heard that it's dumb to go stage 1 - that stage 2 is a no-brainer.

Then that gets pretty pricey, so before we go there, let's explore other options.

-Evan
Ummmm...
HPF Stage II Turbo System Non SMG: $18,495.00
BMW M3 non SMG Feramic Clutch (300-700whp): $925.00

Total = $19,420

$23,000 - $19,420 = $3,580

:eatpop:

[Ahheck01]

^^I am just saying. You posted this:


Ummmm...
HPF Stage II Non SMG: $18,495.00
BMW M3 non SMG Feramic Clutch (300-700whp): $925.00

Total = $19,420

$23,000 - $19,420 = $3,580

:eatpop:

That doesn't cover the rest:

Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $960
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230

So, going to HPF route = 19,420+7100= $26,520

Not to mention the noise and the smoothness of power delivery that isn't what I'm looking for.

-Evan

[highboostingm3]

That doesn't cover the rest:

Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $960
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230

So, going to HPF route = 19,420+7100= $26,520

Not to mention the noise and the smoothness of power delivery that isn't what I'm looking for.

-Evan
:rofl With turbo you do not need any of that stuff except maybe the SSK if you want. The HPF kit has actually made more power with the stock exhaust than with a few aftermarket exhausts with their testing. So aftermarket exhaust is truly not needed since you will still have ~560whp on tap with 91 octane + methanol. :) ~620whp 110 octane + methanol. :)

You really need to read more information about the HPF Stage II System. (http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/HorsepowerFreaks/Turbos/Turbo_Kits/Stage_2_E46/13291)

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Alright then - my first go will look like this:

F/I: Active Autowerke ASA Gen V SC - $12,900
Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $960
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230
Clutch/Flywheel: Active Autowerke High Performance Kit - $3000


Can I upgrade the radiator as well? I've heard good things about the Zionsville M3 Competition Cooling Package with the offset fan - would that negate the need for the Fan Clutch? Would that be better or worse? Looking for maximum reliability and longevity of all parts here.

-Evan

Add in the packaged deal - Bimmerforums discount and it looks even better. :buttrock

I would still recommend doing the Fan clutch with a radiator upgrade. They would not affect each other.

[Ahheck01]

I would still recommend doing the Fan clutch with a radiator upgrade. They would not affect each other.

So the main fan stays even when you have the electric fan? Or should I not get the whole package and just stick with the aluminum radiator by itself?

What other pieces to the puzzle can be upgraded to improve reliability? Hoses? Lines of any sort? Water pump? Anything? Cost isn't nealy as important to me as being worry free.

-Evan

[highboostingm3]

Cost isn't nealy as important to me as being worry free.

-Evan
The salesman in me only heard one thing right now.....

"CHA CHING!"

[pastE36prsntE46]

Hey AHHECK you have a D4 sub listed, BennyZ recommended a D2, just noticed that as I have a similar setup......Your car should be amazing, hope to match it up with mine sometime, audio and performance.....I have a stage 3 HPF on its way :)

[spdu4ea]

Ummmm...
HPF Stage II Turbo System Non SMG: $18,495.00
BMW M3 non SMG Feramic Clutch (300-700whp): $925.00

Total = $19,420

$23,000 - $19,420 = $3,580

:eatpop:

Yup, people always seem to overlook all the extra parts they need to buy for the stage 2 SC kits...



Street Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 2 in 255/35/19 - $1400

Are you avoiding staggering your wheels/tires? 255s might not play so nice 470whp...

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

So the main fan stays even when you have the electric fan? Or should I not get the whole package and just stick with the aluminum radiator by itself?

What other pieces to the puzzle can be upgraded to improve reliability? Hoses? Lines of any sort? Water pump? Anything? Cost isn't nealy as important to me as being worry free.

-Evan

Sorry i misread your post. Just upgrading the radiator will be enough (not really needed).

Honestly the kit itself is worry free. I do understand (from personal car experience you would like to upgrade all parts for a piece of mind).

The E46 M3 is a very well built car. We have also tested our kits enough to call it a true bolt on. Meaning nothing else is necessary. In other words the supporting mods listed will be a great addition but not required.

I see you have done your research and pretty much know what you will be going with already. :)

[GEN3RIC]

Dreamworld. You printing dollar bills now?

[gerry_miranda]

Thats $64,000 + the E46 M3 (avg 33k)....thats $100K
And you want reliability and civility...

What can you buy with that power and is reliable with a warranty...a new Corvette ZR1 for $102K...if it breaks, have it towed to the dealer....plus if you buy a $100k car there is chance you can get some of that back in trade-in, a modded e46 M3...is worht less than the average stock M3.

[Neil]

Thats $64,000 + the E46 M3 (avg 33k)....thats $100K
And you want reliability and civility...

What can you buy with that power and is reliable with a warranty...a new Corvette ZR1 for $102K...if it breaks, have it towed to the dealer....plus if you buy a $100k car there is chance you can get some of that back in trade-in, a modded e46 M3...is worht less than the average stock M3.

Or a new M3, or a Nissan GT-R, or a lightly-used Porsche GT3...

Neil

[alpmaster]

...or the venerable C6 Z06.

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Add in the packaged deal - Bimmerforums discount and it looks even better. :buttrock

I would still recommend doing the Fan clutch with a radiator upgrade. They would not affect each other.

J/W what kind of discount are you talking about?

[pbonsalb]

Haha, it's always been my dream to buy a great car like the e46 M3 and spare no expense in modding it EXACTLY how I want it, and I'm finally getting to the point where I can do so. You think that's bad - that's just the go mods. Here's the full list:

Exterior - $7350
Headlights: OEM Bi-Xenon's with Quad Bixenon Retrofit - $1500
DDE's: Predator Orion V2 - $140
Tint: 30% all around, 90% on windshield for UV protection - $400
Lip: Euro-Spec Carbon Fiber Hamann Competition Lip - $250
Spoiler/Trunk Lid: Vorsteiner V-CSL Boot Lid Carbon Fiber - $1300
Hood: Vorsteiner VRS Vented Race Hood - $1650
Roof: Vorsteiner V-CSL Carbon Fiber Roof (Sunroof) - $1400
Kidneys: Carbon Fiber - $190
Diffuser: Vorsteiner Carbon Fiber VCSL Rear Diffuser - $520

Suspension - $3900
Shock/Spring/Coilovers: AST 4200 Coilovers - $2300
Sways: Hotchkis - $395
Strut Brace: Vorshlag - $325
Control Arms: OEM
LCAB's: UUC - $240
Trailing Arms: OEM
RTAB's: Stock with Vorshlag Limiters - $45
RSM's: Meyle HD - $55
Camber Plates: Vorshlag Street - $340
Front/Rear Subframe Reinforcements: Turner Kit - $200

Drivetrain - $23,000
F/I: Active Autowerke ASA Gen V SC - $12,900
Headers: Active Autowerke Gen 4 Headers - $1800
Cats: SuperSprint Metal Cats - $2400
Mid-Pipes: UUC Rasp-X Midpipe - $960
Exhaust: Active Autowerke Gen 4 - $1300
Fan Clutch: Active Autowerke Sport Fan Clutch - $175
Thermostat: Active Autowerke 55 degree C - $235
Short Shift Kit: Autosolutions Complete SSK - $230
Clutch/Flywheel: Active Autowerke High Performance Kit - $3000

Wheels, Tires, Brakes - $18,000
Street Wheels: Kinesis F110 19x10 - $5000
Street Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 2 in 255/35/19 - $1400
Track Wheels: 19x9.5 OE CSL's - $2200
Track Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup in 265/30/19 - $1600
Rear Brakes: Brembo GT 355mm w/4 pot calipers - $3500
Front Brakes: Brembo GT 380mm w/6 pot calipers - $4300
Lines: Brembo SS Lines - Included

Interior - $250
Seats: OEM Cinnamon
Shift Knob: Momo Tall Anatomic Black - $50
EBrake Lever: Undecided - $50
Pedals: Ultimate Pedals Anti-Slip - $150
Aftermarket Gauges: (working on it)

Nav/Tech - $11,900
Head Unit: Alpine IVA-W505 - $1100
Head Unit Accessories:
- 6-Disc DVD/MP3/ACC/WMA/DivX Changer (DHA-S690) - $450
- Rear View Camera System (HCE-C105) - $220
- Bluetooth Interface Module (KCE-350BT) - $230
Components: Hybrid Audio Legatia 841-3 Pro - $1150
Subwoofer: Image Dynamics ID MAX 12 v.3 D4 - $450
Amps: Zapco DC Reference:
- 350.2 (for 1") - $700
- 350.2 (for 4") - $700
- 360.4 (Bridged for 8") - $940
- 750.2 (Bridged for 12") - $1100
Sound Deadening: SecondSkin Audio - $1500
Navigation: Garmin Nuvi 880 - $900
Radar/Laser Detection: Valentine 1 - $450
Laser Jammer: Blinder M45 - $700
Radio Scanner: Uniden BC996T - $550
CB Radio: Uniden PRO520XL - $70
Alarm: Viper 7900 - $360
Alarm Accessories: Window Control - $60 ; Dual Zone Radar - $50 ; Glass Break Sensor - $40 ; Tilt Sensor - $35 ; Backup Battery - $35


Total: $64,400

Lastly, cost. Though not a huge factor, I'm not interested in the $25k packages. I don't want to do a bunch of custom work . . .

[GG///M3]

Or a new M3, or a Nissan GT-R, or a lightly-used Porsche GT3...

Neil

Or my m3 fo 16k. :stickoutt

[PathosRx]

You can't add custom things to the HPF kit for more power. You can't change the psi level. You can't change the tune. Everything is already preprogrammed in the HPF AEM EMS so that people don't do stupid things like this, blow up their motor and then blame HPF.

Wow, you are definitely missing something here. Stage 1 has two boost settings - 6psi for 91 octane and 13 psi for 100 octane. I am sure any moron can hook up a boost controller and run 10-11 psi with a boost dependent w/a injection system. If the tune calls for 91 octane for all boost levels shy of 13 psi then one would simply utilize that magically accurate thing called a wideband to see how effective their w/a injection system is in providing safe afrs. You can always adjust the methanol content of the w/a mixture and or run lower boost. If you think paying an additional $2500 is worth it then go for it. The only thing I would add is an exhaust temp gauge.

Besides there could be a host of problems that cause engines to blow up besides incorrect octane, failure of a sensor, misshift, failure to refill HPF w/a injection system which are all warranty voiding occurrences.

Edit: I just found out that the 13 psi tune is for 110 octane.

[spdu4ea]

Wow, you are definitely missing something here. Stage 1 has two boost settings - 6psi for 91 octane and 13 psi for 100 octane. I am sure any moron can hook up a boost controller and run 10-11 psi with a boost dependent w/a injection system. If the tune calls for 91 psi for all boost levels shy of 13 psi then one would simply utilize that magically accurate thing called a wideband to see how effective their w/a injection system is in providing safe afrs. You can always adjust the methanol content of the w/a mixture and or run lower boost. If you think paying an additional $2500 is worth it then go for it. The only thing I would add is an exhaust temp gauge.

Besides there could be a host of problems that cause engines to blow up besides incorrect octane, failure of a sensor, misshift, failure to refill HPF w/a injection system which are all warranty voiding occurrences.


wat? If you run out of meth on the HPF kit, it just runs the standard stage 1 maps. The race gas map is for 110 octane, not 100. And if you were to hook up a boost controller, I'd bet you'd find that you hit some sort of fuel cut/overboost protection when the AEM sees more than 7psi manifold pressure on the pump gas map...

[highboostingm3]

Wow, you are definitely missing something here. Stage 1 has two boost settings - 6psi for 91 octane and 13 psi for 100 octane. I am sure any moron can hook up a boost controller and run 10-11 psi with a boost dependent w/a injection system. If the tune calls for 91 psi for all boost levels shy of 13 psi then one would simply utilize that magically accurate thing called a wideband to see how effective their w/a injection system is in providing safe afrs. You can always adjust the methanol content of the w/a mixture and or run lower boost. If you think paying an additional $2500 is worth it then go for it. The only thing I would add is an exhaust temp gauge.

Besides there could be a host of problems that cause engines to blow up besides incorrect octane, failure of a sensor, misshift, failure to refill HPF w/a injection system which are all warranty voiding occurrences.
My only response is: :rofl:


As SpongeBob Squarepants said to the little plankton in his movie when the plankton mentioned he was going to conquer the world.......

"Well, good luck with that!" :wave

[Ahheck01]

Hey guys, just want to jump in and try to make a little sense to this whole thing.

It's always been my dream to buy a great car like the 2004 e46 m3 that was just a couple of years old (thus heavily depreciated), and then spare no expense in modifying it EXACTLY how I wanted. Sure I could buy a Corvette ZR1 for 100k (after the 80k markup died down), but performance aside, it would be vastly inferior to the M3 I'll have when all is said and done.

As far as this particular thread and the mode of F/I - it's not that money is a huge issue (obviously based on my total list), it's just that having 2000hp isn't worth getting all custom and having a hard-to-handle burst of power as boost builds. I like the SC idea because it's a lot more smooth in the delivery of the power. 470whp may not be as much as I can get out of a HPF stage II, but it fits what I'm looking to accomplish, so it gets my vote.

I'm very fortunate to be in this position, and I know it's a little odd/unorthodox, but I worked hard to be able to do this. Thanks for all your suggestions!

-Evan

[GG///M3]

Hey guys, just want to jump in and try to make a little sense to this whole thing.

It's always been my dream to buy a great car like the 2004 e46 m3 that was just a couple of years old (thus heavily depreciated), and then spare no expense in modifying it EXACTLY how I wanted. Sure I could buy a Corvette ZR1 for 100k (after the 80k markup died down), but performance aside, it would be vastly inferior to the M3 I'll have when all is said and done.

As far as this particular thread and the mode of F/I - it's not that money is a huge issue (obviously based on my total list), it's just that having 2000hp isn't worth getting all custom and having a hard-to-handle burst of power as boost builds. I like the SC idea because it's a lot more smooth in the delivery of the power. 470whp may not be as much as I can get out of a HPF stage II, but it fits what I'm looking to accomplish, so it gets my vote.

I'm very fortunate to be in this position, and I know it's a little odd/unorthodox, but I worked hard to be able to do this. Thanks for all your suggestions!

-Evan


Kool keep us posted on it.:cool

[highboostingm3]

Hey guys, just want to jump in and try to make a little sense to this whole thing.

It's always been my dream to buy a great car like the 2004 e46 m3 that was just a couple of years old (thus heavily depreciated), and then spare no expense in modifying it EXACTLY how I wanted. Sure I could buy a Corvette ZR1 for 100k (after the 80k markup died down), but performance aside, it would be vastly inferior to the M3 I'll have when all is said and done.

As far as this particular thread and the mode of F/I - it's not that money is a huge issue (obviously based on my total list), it's just that having 2000hp isn't worth getting all custom and having a hard-to-handle burst of power as boost builds. I like the SC idea because it's a lot more smooth in the delivery of the power. 470whp may not be as much as I can get out of a HPF stage II, but it fits what I'm looking to accomplish, so it gets my vote.

I'm very fortunate to be in this position, and I know it's a little odd/unorthodox, but I worked hard to be able to do this. Thanks for all your suggestions!

-Evan
Well put. Then you must go with the Active Autowerke ASA setup. As AA mentioned, you don't need a lot of that extra stuff and can shave quite a few thousand off the total price.

I have met most of the AA guys in person and they are a team of great individuals backed by a fantastic company who has been in the game a very long time. :thumbup:

What is cool about the stock DME...you can always add race fuel and the stock ECU will adjust to make more power. :naughty

[5mall5nail5]

What is cool about the stock DME...you can always add race fuel and the stock ECU will adjust to make more power. :naughty

Sort of

[Matt]

Sort of

Not "Sort of." Yes.

There are 91 and 98 octane ignition maps in some of the DMEs, and an algorithm for figuring out which to use at any particular time. Of course, they both need to be tuned for whatever different fuels you want to run, and there's no way to do that with a piggyback. :dunno

[highboostingm3]

Not "Sort of." Yes.

There are 91 and 98 octane ignition maps in some of the DMEs, and an algorithm for figuring out which to use at any particular time. Of course, they both need to be tuned for whatever different fuels you want to run, and there's no way to do that with a piggyback. :dunno
What I do know is that with "real world" testing before and after dyno comparisons, the e46 S/C guys do make more power by upping the octane. They usually go up to MS109 and keep it unleaded.

[5mall5nail5]

Not "Sort of." Yes.

There are 91 and 98 octane ignition maps in some of the DMEs, and an algorithm for figuring out which to use at any particular time. Of course, they both need to be tuned for whatever different fuels you want to run, and there's no way to do that with a piggyback. :dunno

What Cam said is that the stock ECU will adjust to a higher octane fuel - no. It's got two different programs. That's not "adjusting". I don't believe they're using a fuel sensor that can detect 93 unleaded vs 100 unleaded, bu correct me if I am wrong. The stock ECU would probably have to gon on knock sensing but I don't know that it'd not detect knock for X cycles and decide to increase the timing and such. Not that I know much about the E46 ECUs, but I don't know how the ECU would self-adjust for a pump vs race fuel. In fact, I'd say that I wouldn't want it to self-adjust, which is what I interpreted Cam as saying.

Piggybacks can do that sure - they could in theory have multiple maps if they wish. Isn't that how HPF does it?

Even cooler would be if they fit a GM fuel sensor and could detect ethanol content and automatically change the tune based on percentage of ethanol present - I can't wait to get into that.

[5mall5nail5]

What I do know is that with "real world" testing before and after dyno comparisons, the e46 S/C guys do make more power by upping the octane. They usually go up to MS109 and keep it unleaded.

Right but isn't that with different maps selected? I mean almost any ECU will pull timing as it sees knock - but that's not a good way to allow race fuel. Know what I mean? Maybe I am missing something, but if they're picking up significant power by putting race fuel in the tank without doing anything else they've got to have some sort of fuel sensor and I am not sure how they'd sense octane rating if its all unleaded - ethanol I can see, but I dunno about octane variance. The only way I can see that happening is if the ECU pulls timing from knock sensing and then it relieves timing back from the tables as the engine stops knocking... which sounds wrong.

[Matt]

What I do know is that with "real world" testing before and after dyno comparisons, the e46 S/C guys do make more power by upping the octane. They usually go up to MS109 and keep it unleaded.

Uh oh, real life matches the textbook answer... :eyecrazy


What Cam said is that the stock ECU will adjust to a higher octane fuel - no. It's got two different programs.

Nope - one program, two maps. The user/driver/tuner doesn't switch actively, the DME decides on the fly, and actually interpolates.


That's not "adjusting".
Right, but what the ECU does IS "adjusting."



Not that I know much about the E46 ECUs, but I don't know how the ECU would self-adjust for a pump vs race fuel. In fact, I'd say that I wouldn't want it to self-adjust, which is what I interpreted Cam as saying.
Well, don't buy an e46 then, because they do.

[5mall5nail5]

Uh oh, real life matches the textbook answer... :eyecrazy



Nope - one program, two maps. The user/driver/tuner doesn't switch actively, the DME decides on the fly, and actually interpolates.


Right, but what the ECU does IS "adjusting."



Well, don't buy an e46 then, because they do.

Why are you trying to make this an argument? I said I am not sure how it would do that - ok.. here it goes... would you please share with us how it works? What part of "correct me if I'm wrong" was in greek?

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

What Cam said is that the stock ECU will adjust to a higher octane fuel - no. It's got two different programs. That's not "adjusting". I don't believe they're using a fuel sensor that can detect 93 unleaded vs 100 unleaded, bu correct me if I am wrong. The stock ECU would probably have to gon on knock sensing but I don't know that it'd not detect knock for X cycles and decide to increase the timing and such. Not that I know much about the E46 ECUs, but I don't know how the ECU would self-adjust for a pump vs race fuel. In fact, I'd say that I wouldn't want it to self-adjust, which is what I interpreted Cam as saying.

Piggybacks can do that sure - they could in theory have multiple maps if they wish. Isn't that how HPF does it?

Even cooler would be if they fit a GM fuel sensor and could detect ethanol content and automatically change the tune based on percentage of ethanol present - I can't wait to get into that.

No its one map. Even a stock car will make more power with no software adjustments with race gas.

The car cant really decipher what octane is in the car. But it detects detonation very fast.

The S54 has 3 knock sensors and as long as the knock voltage is kept happy the DME will add timing accordingly. It doesn't allow knock either. Basically if tried to use headphones you would never be able to hear knock, the DME is that fast.

Most guys don't go higher than 109 is because they probably don't have anything better that is unleaded as the other higher octanes are leaded and it will kill the 02 sensors.

[highboostingm3]

Jon: I don't know how it works, however what I am saying is that just by adding fuel and not changing any maps with a switch, in the e46 m3 the stock DME will automatically adjust the tune somewhat to take advantage of that slower burning fuel in order to produce more power. They have proven this on the dyno with before/after comparisons. A stock OBDII e36 will do this somewhat I believe, but not to the extent the e46 m3 does (probably same with every e46 but not sure).

[highboostingm3]

No its one map. Even a stock car will make more power with no software adjustments with race gas.

The car cant really decipher what octane is in the car.

The S54 has 3 knock sensors and as long as the knock voltage is kept happy the DME will add timing accordingly. It doesn't allow knock either. Basically if tried to use headphones you would never be able to hear knock, the DME is that fast.

Most guys don't go higher than 109 is because they probably don't have anything better that is unleaded as the other higher octanes are leaded and it will kill the 02 sensors.
Thanks for the info.

And another reason they go up to MS109 is that engines like unleaded fuel so much better than leaded fuel. It makes the engine "crack" so Kenny the Aussie tells me, rather than be slightly sluggish. Obviously not in the literal sense of the word. ;)

[5mall5nail5]

No its one map. Even a stock car will make more power with no software adjustments with race gas.

The car cant really decipher what octane is in the car.

The S54 has 3 knock sensors and as long as the knock voltage is kept happy the DME will add timing accordingly. It doesn't allow knock either. Basically if tried to use headphones you would never be able to hear knock, the DME is that fast.

Most guys don't go higher than 109 is because they probably don't have anything better that is unleaded as the other higher octanes are leaded and it will kill the 02 sensors.

Thank you so much for answering!

Interesting - its surprising they're using knock sensors as a form of closed loop timing control. They must have a very very accurate DSP for knock sensing - very cool. Saab has a very similar setup but uses CDI and Ion Sensing per cylinder which, honestly, is much more accurate than acoustic detection. I didn't think that BMW would be using a closed-loop timing control based on the acoustic detection but that's really neat. I would suspect the ECU stops adding timing at some point, right?

My only real concern would be that the fuel tank wouldn't be a real "mix" of high octane and low octane fuel and so knock results based on whats going through the pump could oscillate the timing values a bit unless theres a good amount of time for hysterisis. But, definitely cool none the less. I appreciate you answering my question!

[Matt]

Thank you so much for answering!

Interesting - its surprising they're using knock sensors as a form of closed loop timing control. They must have a very very accurate DSP for knock sensing - very cool. Saab has a very similar setup but uses CDI and Ion Sensing per cylinder which, honestly, is much more accurate than acoustic detection. I didn't think that BMW would be using a closed-loop timing control based on the acoustic detection but that's really neat. I would suspect the ECU stops adding timing at some point, right?

My only real concern would be that the fuel tank wouldn't be a real "mix" of high octane and low octane fuel and so knock results based on whats going through the pump could oscillate the timing values a bit unless theres a good amount of time for hysterisis. But, definitely cool none the less. I appreciate you answering my question!

I gave you way more info than he did...

The DME doesn't add timing. It interpolates between two different ignition maps based on calculated fuel octane. The limit would be the upper map.

[5mall5nail5]

I gave you way more info than he did...

The DME doesn't add timing. It interpolates between two different ignition maps based on calculated fuel octane. The limit would be the upper map.

No you didn't but that's ok I have all the information I need thanks.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Thank you so much for answering!

Interesting - its surprising they're using knock sensors as a form of closed loop timing control. They must have a very very accurate DSP for knock sensing - very cool. Saab has a very similar setup but uses CDI and Ion Sensing per cylinder which, honestly, is much more accurate than acoustic detection. I didn't think that BMW would be using a closed-loop timing control based on the acoustic detection but that's really neat. I would suspect the ECU stops adding timing at some point, right?

My only real concern would be that the fuel tank wouldn't be a real "mix" of high octane and low octane fuel and so knock results based on whats going through the pump could oscillate the timing values a bit unless theres a good amount of time for hysterisis. But, definitely cool none the less. I appreciate you answering my question!

Your welcome.

I have seen runs differ with no cool down. It does work amazingly fast. Most of the time the E46 shows the best runs after a few runs with no cool down, it just keeps adding timing for better octane as long as the DME is happy.

The E60 M5 and E90 M3 are using the Ion Sensing method (spark plugs) and they have no knock sensors.

Too bad it would be much too expensive to imply Ion Sensing to older models.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Thanks for the info.

And another reason they go up to MS109 is that engines like unleaded fuel so much better than leaded fuel. It makes the engine "crack" so Kenny the Aussie tells me, rather than be slightly sluggish. Obviously not in the literal sense of the word. ;)

LOL.

I am a 118 Octane junkie myself.

[Ahheck01]

On a slightly more on-topic note, what is the ideal wheel and tire width to handle well on the track, but also to put down all that power? I think I need to stick with 19's all around due to 380mm brembo's in front, 355 in rear.

-Evan

[///M3///M5]

No its one map.

Or two (RON 91 and RON 98; lower and upper limits).

I have the hexadecimal addresses if you want... ;)

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Or two (RON 91 and RON 98; lower and upper limits).



There are a few different maps such as part throttle, full throttle, etc...

I assume everyone is speaking about the WOT map which is in use when you dyno the vehicle. ONE MAP, the DME will adjust within that ONE MAP. Depending on the conditions. In short, with race gas the DME will add or pull timing in that one map accordingly - with race gas it will be adding timing, when pump fuel is back in the car that map will pull timing.

It also has a few safety maps in which the DME can go to. As most cars do.


I have the hexadecimal addresses if you want... ;)

:help :urtheman

[5mall5nail5]

:help :urtheman
lol yeah, we're all impressed ahaha (who cares?)

Thanks Jean for sharing some information!

[techno550]

There are a few different maps such as part throttle, full throttle, etc...

I assume everyone is speaking about the WOT map which is in use when you dyno the vehicle. ONE MAP, the DME will adjust within that ONE MAP. Depending on the conditions. In short, with race gas the DME will add or pull timing in that one map accordingly - with race gas it will be adding timing, when pump fuel is back in the car that map will pull timing.

It also has a few safety maps in which the DME can go to. As most cars do.

No, it has two maps.

It doesn't adjust within a map. the map is the map. With two maps with different values (say, one for RON 91 and another for RON 98) it will adjust between those points.

[spdu4ea]

I think you all are saying the same thing -- there is an upper and lower limit to the timing advance available. The DME will adjust to somewhere in between based on the knock feedback it receives. It doesn't run a straight 91 map or a straight 98 map -- it does have the ability to "adapt" between them.

[PathosRx]

If the DME has been cracked by AA with their tuning for the Rotrex and ASA kits, then why are they only selling supercharger kits? Why aren't they selling turbo kits for the e46 M3? Marketing? Niche?

Why did HPF decide to go standalone? They couldn't crack the DME? You know that the car can't pass emissions with a standalone ...

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

lol yeah, we're all impressed ahaha (who cares?)

Thanks Jean for sharing some information!

Thank you and your welcome.


No, it has two maps.

It doesn't adjust within a map. the map is the map. With two maps with different values (say, one for RON 91 and another for RON 98) it will adjust between those points.

No.

It has one map. That one map is modified by us. That one map is adjusted by the DME.

It sounds like your talking about a non M DME. Above would be correct for a non M. Not the MSS54


I think you all are saying the same thing -- there is an upper and lower limit to the timing advance available. The DME will adjust to somewhere in between based on the knock feedback it receives. It doesn't run a straight 91 map or a straight 98 map -- it does have the ability to "adapt" between them.

No read above.


If the DME has been cracked by AA with their tuning for the Rotrex and ASA kits, then why are they only selling supercharger kits? Why aren't they selling turbo kits for the e46 M3? Marketing? Niche?

Why did HPF decide to go standalone? They couldn't crack the DME? You know that the car can't pass emissions with a standalone ...

We decided not to for internal reasons. But we can tune a Turbo E46 M3 with the stock DME.

[5mall5nail5]

If the DME has been cracked by AA with their tuning for the Rotrex and ASA kits, then why are they only selling supercharger kits? Why aren't they selling turbo kits for the e46 M3? Marketing? Niche?

Why did HPF decide to go standalone? They couldn't crack the DME? You know that the car can't pass emissions with a standalone ...

They're (HPF) using a piggyback, which passes emissions.

[PathosRx]

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/HPF750_ems.asp

No mention of piggyback. It says EMS repeatedly. It also uses a MAP sensor. I would assume that may cause a CEL or some problem if the emissions station is checking the DME for the MAF.

I can't imagine that if they opened up the engine bay and see this thing plugged in, that they wouldn't be suspicious. Would they still pass it?

[Ahheck01]

On a slightly more on-topic note, what is the ideal wheel and tire width to handle well on the track, but also to put down all that power? I think I need to stick with 19's all around due to 380mm brembo's in front, 355 in rear.

-Evan

?

[clintjg]

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/HPF750_ems.asp

No mention of piggyback. It says EMS repeatedly. It also uses a MAP sensor. I would assume that may cause a CEL or some problem if the emissions station is checking the DME for the MAF.

I can't imagine that if they opened up the engine bay and see this thing plugged in, that they wouldn't be suspicious. Would they still pass it?


M3 engine management system that works in conjunction with the stock DME

It's a piggy back.

[5mall5nail5]

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/HPF750_ems.asp

No mention of piggyback. It says EMS repeatedly. It also uses a MAP sensor. I would assume that may cause a CEL or some problem if the emissions station is checking the DME for the MAF.

I can't imagine that if they opened up the engine bay and see this thing plugged in, that they wouldn't be suspicious. Would they still pass it?

Its a piggyback that uses manifold pressure for fuel and spark control ontop of the stock ECU

[clintjg]

Will a stock ECU running Alpha N adjust for 109 according to the same parameters?

[PathosRx]

I know what constitutes a piggyback as I have utilized one on one of my cars.

However, if anyone who actually knows the answer to the second part of my question can actually post it instead of giving definitions, then please clarify if the HPF EMS can pass emissions.

[Neil]

However, if anyone who actually knows the answer to the second part of my question can actually post it instead of giving definitions, then please clarify if the HPF EMS can pass emissions.

Answer depends entirely on the specific emissions testing performed in your locale.

Neil

[5mall5nail5]

I know what constitutes a piggyback as I have utilized one on one of my cars.

However, if anyone who actually knows the answer to the second part of my question can actually post it instead of giving definitions, then please clarify if the HPF EMS can pass emissions.

It can pass - OBD2 is a plug in readiness test. The unit does not interfere with the stock computers "presence" and therefore, does not throw any flags at the testing station.

[PathosRx]

It can pass - OBD2 is a plug in readiness test. The unit does not interfere with the stock computers "presence" and therefore, does not throw any flags at the testing station.

That is exactly what happens in PA and NY. Thank you.

[gerry_miranda]

I have aske HPF this question before because they just plug in to the OBD2 port in IL...here is the response...

Originally Posted by gerry_miranda
Does this still have an OBD2 port?
Emissions in IL, is passed by checking fault codes in the OBD2...and thats it.

From: HorsePowerFreaks
Our kit will not pass emissions as read by checking the fault codes in the OBD2.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10513462&postcount=46

[PathosRx]

I have aske HPF this question before because they just plug in to the OBD2 port in IL...here is the response...

Originally Posted by gerry_miranda
Does this still have an OBD2 port?
Emissions in IL, is passed by checking fault codes in the OBD2...and thats it.

From: HorsePowerFreaks
Our kit will not pass emissions as read by checking the fault codes in the OBD2.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10513462&postcount=46

Oh wow. See this is a real answer based on fact and not speculation. Thank you for providing the answer and link based on real world data from HPF itself. In order to be able to pass emissions, the DME must be in a readiness state and that can't happen with fault codes. So the car will not have a CEL but will still have fault codes? I know of one HPF car in PA (outside Pittsburgh) and his was a potential stage 3 car. Any other PA or NY HPF cars out there? Are the emissions different in WI or WA?

[GG///M3]

?

pretty much correct, but its kool to know that going with a AA setup you dont have to worry about the piggy back stuff and emissions. Its kool to know AA cracked the dme/ecu codes long ago for the e46 m3, and even the e90 m3. Cant wait to see how your car turns out.:)

[328iJunkie]

BFcFI battles again.

OP: I think what theyre looking for as far as wheels/tires goes is a little more rubber out back...

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

On a slightly more on-topic note, what is the ideal wheel and tire width to handle well on the track, but also to put down all that power? I think I need to stick with 19's all around due to 380mm brembo's in front, 355 in rear.

-Evan

I assume drag strip? I am pretty sure with 19's 275/30/19 will probably be the best overall setup on the stock body (i think some people have tried 285).

However you will have tire spin.


Will a stock ECU running Alpha N adjust for 109 according to the same parameters?

Yes it will.