Why no V8 in Z4?

[BavariaMotorist]

Apologize if this has been posted, but this is an extremely active forum with loads of content and it's difficult to find anything sometimes ****


BMW claims, from what I've read, that the M3 V8 in the Z4 M will upset the balance of the car and it's not a car intended for that powerplant. Sounds like a load of crap to me and a way to save costs.


The M3 V8 weighs less than the S54B32 I-6 and although it is much powerful, it's not THAT powerful; not enough torque to really upset the car's balance. It would just be a flat out rocket and it'd be a magazine test killer.


Is BMW waiting for the Z4 replacement to add this powerplant to the M?


I'd really like an M roadster to add to my stable, but as sad as it is to say, the S54 just isn't what it used to be by today's standards and the new 4.0l V8 certainly overshadows it. My money would buy me a Boxster S if I had to choose right now.


Thanks..

[Mitch]

The new Z4 is so close. We'll probably see the V8 in the M Coupe/Roadster offering. But who knows. BMW has made some odd choices over the years.

[BavariaMotorist]

Sorry for being unclear. That's what I meant; Z4 M specifically. The base Z4s can live on with a straight six like the rest of the model range (1, 3, 5)

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

Because BMW has decided making fun cars is overrated and wants to be the next toyota in efficiency.

[victoriabmw27]

Im pretty sure that BMW decieded to not make an 09 Z4M
Although i love the way the Z4M handles i wasnt impressed with its engine, its not overly quick for what it it
Go drive a Z8, i think that would make you happy

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

Im pretty sure that BMW decieded to not make an 09 Z4M
Although i love the way the Z4M handles i wasnt impressed with its engine, its not overly quick for what it it
Go drive a Z8, i think that would make you happy

Until the Z8's aluminum chasis bent from hitting a pot hole and bmw refused to pay your 14k bill.



BMW is proving the bs direction they're going if they don't make a Z4M for the next gen.

[GMUFlier]

Until the Z8's aluminum chasis bent from hitting a pot hole and bmw refused to pay your 14k bill.



BMW is proving the bs direction they're going if they don't make a Z4M for the next gen.
They are a business. Those cars don't sell all that well.

[Ianbiz]

The Z4 doesnt need that much power, even though it would be scary and possibly deadly, I'd rock it.

[Mitch]

They are a business. Those cars don't sell all that well.

Volkswagen-Audi Group sold the Veyron at a loss of $4million per car. Didn't stop them from making a handful of awesome cars.

[GMUFlier]

Volkswagen-Audi Group sold the Veyron at a loss of $4million per car. Didn't stop them from making a handful of awesome cars.
So every auto manufacturer should sell cars at a loss? Not that the Z4 M is close to being the same thing as a supercar.

[BavariaMotorist]

Im pretty sure that BMW decieded to not make an 09 Z4M
Although i love the way the Z4M handles i wasnt impressed with its engine, its not overly quick for what it it
Go drive a Z8, i think that would make you happy

Z8.... Too expensive :D




They are a business. Those cars don't sell all that well.


You're right that they don't (although they have the potential to), but image is as important as anything. Producing cars like the Z4 show you have a commitment to sports driving and performance. The same reason Dodge produces the Viper. Well, maybe a bit different, but it's still about image.




The Z4 doesnt need that much power, even though it would be scary and possibly deadly, I'd rock it.


It's amazing how a car that was regarded as fast as hell is now mildly quick at best. Things change fast nowadays. Sub 5 second 0-60 doesn't cut it anymore. With a 10k price increase and the M3 V8, it'd be a killer and would probably sell better.


New looks wouldn't hurt either...

[Mitch]

So every business should sell cars at a loss?

No, but I think that auto manufacturers who make money hand over fist, like BMW, can afford to make a ridiculously fun car every once in a while. It's not the best business model, but a little fanservice goes a long way in the eyes of automotive journalists and potential buyers.

[GMUFlier]

No, but I think that auto manufacturers who make money hand over fist, like BMW, can afford to make a ridiculously fun car every once in a while. It's not the best business model, but a little fanservice goes a long way in the eyes of automotive journalists and potential buyers.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it would be much better accomplished with a halo car than a Z4 M. I

[prash]

http://www.autonewswebcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/2008_mercedes_benz_slk_55_amg_black_image_main.jpg

[BavariaMotorist]

SLK is a good example of how a large displacement V8 can indeed work on a small roadster.

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

They are a business. Those cars don't sell all that well.

They're obviously a business, and if you look at most of my posts I support most of their decisions from big ugly cars to disconnected luxury boxes since they are in it to make as much money as possible. However almost every manufacturer has halo cars that they don't always make money on. Audi and even dodge like already stated are good examples. Neither the R8 nor the Viper are there to make them big money. And I know how low MZ4 sales are, but still to have a roadster and coupe that are the closest thing you'll find to a true drivers car in the line up and not make an M model. It's also bs because they might not be making too much money but that doesn't mean they're showing a loss on the M versions of the car. I see just as more ZM's than I do e92 M3's or e63 M6's or e60 M5. They're not making the e92 CSL and I think the moves BMW's been making in the last few years are proof of the direction they're going.

[kornkid8600]

they don't want their Z4 M to be faster than their M3. Look at the price difference if they threw the S65 in the Z4M it would cost way more. they already have a hard time selling the Z4Ms anyway at the price they sell at.

[eyeusechopstix]

they don't want their Z4 M to be faster than their M3. Look at the price difference if they threw the S65 in the Z4M it would cost way more. they already have a hard time selling the Z4Ms anyway at the price they sell at.


agreed. its a business and money is the motivation

[gerry_miranda]

Volkswagen-Audi Group sold the Veyron at a loss of $4million per car. Didn't stop them from making a handful of awesome cars.

I agree 100% here. Although not some run of the mill level car like a Z4M. Its not exactly one that you can show case or build a reputation on.

[Ianbiz]

http://www.autonewswebcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/2008_mercedes_benz_slk_55_amg_black_image_main.jpg

I <3 that car, but the V8 is a bit much in there.

[BavariaMotorist]

they don't want their Z4 M to be faster than their M3. Look at the price difference if they threw the S65 in the Z4M it would cost way more. they already have a hard time selling the Z4Ms anyway at the price they sell at.


The price of the M3 was right around the price of the M before the V8 was placed in it.


If they gave the Z4 a big overhaul and placed the V8 in it, they could easily justify a $10k price hike and sell more.


The Z4's problem right now is that it's outdated. Needs a new look if nothing else, and the S54 is becoming outdated as well.

[kornkid8600]

The price of the M3 was right around the price of the M before the V8 was placed in it.


If they gave the Z4 a big overhaul and placed the V8 in it, they could easily justify a $10k price hike and sell more.


The Z4's problem right now is that it's outdated. Needs a new look if nothing else, and the S54 is becoming outdated as well.

Thats true but I don't know how BMW goes around solving this problem where the M3 can compete with a Carrera for much less money a V8 420hp Z4 will certainly kill a Boxster S but will cost more.

Then there's the problem of the M3 had a LOT of R/D put into it, it was designed for that engine and power. I think the next one might get the S65 maybe not maybe it will get something FI like BMW is now planning. I don't think BMW wants to do two iterations of the Z4 M versions when they can compete with Porsche and AMG just fine. They'll keep their guns for the next one.

And while the S54 might becoming dated, I still think its a really good engine for todays standards, for a racing type of motor, but like it was pointed out earlier its heavier than the new engine and makes less power.

[Kevlar]

Remember when VW put that W12 into the Golf platform? Remember how hard it was to drive? I think it would be the same scenario here. It probably would be crazy fun until it sent me through the pearly gates backwards ... and on fire.

[Mitch]

Remember when VW put that W12 into the Golf platform? Remember how hard it was to drive? I think it would be the same scenario here. It probably would be crazy fun until it sent me through the pearly gates backwards ... and on fire.

To be fair, they just put the engine in and did what they had to do to make it run. They didn't have the time (it was a pretty short schedule for a factory one-off) to actually sort out the suspension or traction/stability controls. Remember, even the interior controls were non-functional.

[BavariaMotorist]

Remember when VW put that W12 into the Golf platform? Remember how hard it was to drive? I think it would be the same scenario here. It probably would be crazy fun until it sent me through the pearly gates backwards ... and on fire.



Well, a VW W-12 (assuming the twin-turbo version here) is a completely different monster than this S65 motor. For one, it's an extreme torque beast which will upset the balance of any car if not properly tuned. Secondly, it probably weighs a crap load which changes a lot of the dynamics of the car. Those two factors require the R&D you're speaking of.


But one of my points is that I don't see the S65 as anything but a nice improvement, if not an evolution, to the S54 (yes, I know it's based off the S85). It's of the same nature and power type, and the weight is a non-issue.


Putting, say, an LS3 (Corvette motor) into a Z4 would completely screw it up. I think that goes without saying.

[Mitch]

Well, a VW W-12 (assuming the twin-turbo version here) is a completely different monster than this S65 motor. For one, it's an extreme torque beast which will upset the balance of any car if not properly tuned. Secondly, it probably weighs a crap load which changes a lot of the dynamics of the car. Those two factors require the R&D you're speaking of.


But one of my points is that I don't see the S65 as anything but a nice improvement, if not an evolution, to the S54 (yes, I know it's based off the S85). It's of the same nature and power type, and the weight is a non-issue.


Putting, say, an LS3 (Corvette motor) into a Z4 would completely screw it up. I think that goes without saying.

Well, a popular swap is to put an LSx into FD RX7s, and supposedly that doesn't throw the balance off too much.

[BavariaMotorist]

It's also done in Miatas... :p But BMW can't just throw out a rubber-burning, asphalt crunching beast (although I sure wish they would!). The car has to be somewhat civilized for potential buyers. No one wants to die on a test drive! :D (

[Mitch]

Oh that's right. Heaven forbid we get pulled over on the test drive :devillook :shifty
Isn't this the company that used to write "turbo" in reverse on the front bumpers of the 2002 turbo to intimidate the driver in front?

[Serious]

Its coming in the next M roadster.

z4M has currently been discontinued until the facelift for 2010... when the mroadster/coupe reappear they will be outfitted with s65's.

check roundel.

[bimmershark]

how bout they put the 335s turbo six in it? :dunno

[550i]

Stuff

When did u get a 5 series? Still got the Lotus I trust?

[Serious]

how bout they put the 335s turbo six in it? :dunno

coming as well.

[9kFever]

would be a sick setup

[BavariaMotorist]

When did u get a 5 series? Still got the Lotus I trust?


A few days ago. Lotus ain't going nowhere :buttrock:buttrock (well, not until I order a Viper next year)


I actually test drove a G spyder a few weeks back and it was wonderful. I might want to save for that... but it'd take much longer :) Who wants to be the poor guy with the Lamborghini? LOL

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

Thanks Serious, it's nice to know that my favorite model will be coming back :D

[BavariaMotorist]

Its coming in the next M roadster.

z4M has currently been discontinued until the facelift for 2010... when the mroadster/coupe reappear they will be outfitted with s65's.

check roundel.



Awesome news man :buttrock:buttrock

[peej410]

Dont forget that auto manufacturers do have budgets too. Bmw has always staggered models. Maybe they keep spending their R&D budget and corporate says they dont have any more money to use until the cars they built actually make the company some money. Then R&D budget fills back up in a year and something new gets designed. I dont know that this is how things work but it would make a whole lot of sense in this day and age when R&D costs millions.

[550i]

A few days ago. Lotus ain't going nowhere :buttrock:buttrock (well, not until I order a Viper next year)


I actually test drove a G spyder a few weeks back and it was wonderful. I might want to save for that... but it'd take much longer :) Who wants to be the poor guy with the Lamborghini? LOL

Save moneys and get Lambo! A Viper is a terrible prospect if you are driving it regularly. You could get the LP 560 :) Girls dig Lambo's despite the owners current financial state :confused

[jet2574]

So every auto manufacturer should sell cars at a loss? Not that the Z4 M is close to being the same thing as a supercar.

losing 4 mil on a few cars is nothing compared to losing that much on as many zcars that they build would be insane.not even close to the same thing

[robmpulse]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the weight between the two motors.

Anyone stop to think the v8 may have a much higher center of gravity?

If it's already been said.... Disregard. I am not reading through this entire post of under qualified people voicing their non professional opinion.

Sooner or later the handful of enthusiasts that seem to think their opinion counts anymore will wake up and realize BMW is in fact a business on a VERY HARD market right now.

and remember, for every 10,000 people that say they would run and buy a V8 Z4 the second they come out, only a few of them actually will......

[Subcrtical]

I don't think we'll be seeing a V8 Z any time soon. BMW has been continually shifting their engine production to smaller, more fuel efficient motors. As much as I'd love to see it, it seems like a big step backwards for them to drop a V8 into their smallest cars...

...I guess we can still hope though.

[TopasBlau46]

Since the E90/92 M3's release, BMW has stated they are focusing R&D into turbocharged engines with smaller displacements. I would not be surprised if the next M3 was a supercharged inline 6.

That said, that's a reason alone we won't see a heavy, unneeded engine, in a small sporty coupe/roadster.

[Rakshas]

Since the E90/92 M3's release, BMW has stated they are focusing R&D into turbocharged engines with smaller displacements. I would not be surprised if the next M3 was a supercharged inline 6.

That said, that's a reason alone we won't see a heavy, unneeded engine, in a small sporty coupe/roadster.

BMW has said they will never use Superchargers, the parasitic loss makes them far inferior to a well designed turbo.

Also, it has been said many times, the new V8 is lighter than the S54.

[kornkid8600]

Since the E90/92 M3's release, BMW has stated they are focusing R&D into turbocharged engines with smaller displacements. I would not be surprised if the next M3 was a supercharged inline 6.

That said, that's a reason alone we won't see a heavy, unneeded engine, in a small sporty coupe/roadster.

They are going to bring in turbochargers for the M cars next time around. As long as they can run a high revving turbo engine M division is fine with it. But they've been against superchargers from the beginning.

[robmpulse]

i don't think we'll be seeing a v8 z any time soon. Bmw has been continually shifting their engine production to smaller, more fuel efficient motors. As much as i'd love to see it, it seems like a big step backwards for them to drop a v8 into their smallest cars...

...i guess we can still hope though.

correct me if i am wrong..... But just because they are more fuel efficient, does not mean they are any less powerful. Which means it's the best of both world's doesn't it?

[DrRT]

You guys are all wrong. Adding power is not the answer to making a car more fun, losing weight is the answer. Until you know for sure what BMW will to with the Z4 and M versions please hold your horses and stop speculating.

[robmpulse]

You guys are all wrong. Adding power is not the answer to making a car more fun, losing weight is the answer. Until you know for sure what BMW will to with the Z4 and M versions please hold your horses and stop speculating.

THE TERM"ALL" IS NOT APPLICABLE IN THIS THREAD :confused

[TopasBlau46]

They are going to bring in turbochargers for the M cars next time around. As long as they can run a high revving turbo engine M division is fine with it. But they've been against superchargers from the beginning.

Isn't that exactly what I said?

And BMW has said many things and gone back on their word, but currently, I would be shocked to see superchargers in their cars.

You are right about the engine being lighter, I stand corrected, but the entire car in itself is a pig compared to even the hefty E46 M3.

[Mitch]

Since the E90/92 M3's release, BMW has stated they are focusing R&D into turbocharged engines with smaller displacements. I would not be surprised if the next M3 was a supercharged inline 6.

That said, that's a reason alone we won't see a heavy, unneeded engine, in a small sporty coupe/roadster.


They are going to bring in turbochargers for the M cars next time around. As long as they can run a high revving turbo engine M division is fine with it. But they've been against superchargers from the beginning.


Isn't that exactly what I said?


See the bolded and red.

[DrRT]

What BMW should do for the new Z4M:

- Drop 300 Lb from the current Z4M possible
- Extract 360hp from the 3L I6 aspirated: will need a redesign of the engine and flow but also possible (for BMW, but not for the vast majority of automakers)


and there you go....

Other things I would like to see:
- ceramic brakes as option
- a better MT shift lever than the crap they use now
- have all the electric gismos as option

[patrickrolfsen]

wouldnt the car be unbelievebly heavy in the front if they were to do this? I doesnt seem like there would be much in back to balance that out

[genesismachine]

wouldnt the car be unbelievebly heavy in the front if they were to do this? I doesnt seem like there would be much in back to balance that out
No, the new engine is actually lighter than the old one. I don't know about radiators though, you might need heavier auxiliary equipment to cool/run the thing, but the actual bloc is lighter

[The HACK]

they don't want their Z4 M to be faster than their M3

Bing. F**king. Go.

[The HACK]

The price of the M3 was right around the price of the M before the V8 was placed in it.


If they gave the Z4 a big overhaul and placed the V8 in it, they could easily justify a $10k price hike and sell more.


The Z4's problem right now is that it's outdated. Needs a new look if nothing else, and the S54 is becoming outdated as well.

:rolleyes

None of you guys should run a business.

BMW will make 5-10 times more M3s than they will make Z4s. Why should they sacrifice the sales numbers of M3s by making the Z4s faster? Simple business sense dictate that they CAN NOT afford to stuff the M3's V-8 into the current Z4 because it'll cost them millions to get it certified and they'll lose M3 sales to hardcore enthusiasts because the Z4 will be leaps and bounds FASTER than their bread and butter M3.

It's a simple business decision, especially with current Z4 sales winding down and production ceasing. Now, with the next generation Z4 being built in Germany, it's a possibility, but don't count on it. Z4 sales has been very disappointing to say the least (despite all I can do to help) and if the next generation Z4 doesn't live up to expectations, you can bet that BMW will shift resources to the X5M and X6M rather than spending time and money on a V8 Z4 M.

[The HACK]

Anyone stop to think the v8 may have a much higher center of gravity?

How would a 90 degrees V-8 have a higher center of gravity than an L-6 slanted at 60 degrees?:confused

[Alpine 318is]

What about the twin turbo 335i motor?

[robmpulse]

How would a 90 degrees V-8 have a higher center of gravity than an L-6 slanted at 60 degrees?:confused

MAYBE HAVING A LARGER INTAKE MANIFOLD, AND TWO CYLINDER HEADS AS OPPOSED TO ONE (YES ONLY TWO MORE CYLINDERS BUT STILL TWO CASING), ALONG WITH TWO AIR INTAKES?

ALL OF WHICH SIT ON TOP OF THE MOTOR? :shifty

[Serious]

What about the twin turbo 335i motor?

thats coming in the next z4. as is the v8 for the mz4.

[DrRT]

thats coming in the next z4. as is the v8 for the mz4.

wishful thinking?

[TopasBlau46]

wishful thinking?

+1

I would think more along the lines of the E90 330 engine.

335's engine in the Z4 = too good to be true IMO

[The HACK]

+1

I would think more along the lines of the E90 330 engine.

335's engine in the Z4 = too good to be true IMO

The camouflaged Z4 caught testing on the 'Ring has an intercooler up front. On of the next gen Z4 WILL be equipped with the N54 to start. Bank on it.

The V8 in the MZ4, not so sure.

[The HACK]

MAYBE HAVING A LARGER INTAKE MANIFOLD, AND TWO CYLINDER HEADS AS OPPOSED TO ONE (YES ONLY TWO MORE CYLINDERS BUT STILL TWO CASING), ALONG WITH TWO AIR INTAKES?

ALL OF WHICH SIT ON TOP OF THE MOTOR? :shifty

Screaming won't help you make more sense. The two valve-train argument may actually make sense if the engine weighs the same. Fortunately, they don't.

If you've got empirical evidence that the center of gravity in the S54 is lower than the S65, I'd like to see it. Until then, why would a 90 degrees V-8 have a higher center of gravity than a 60 degrees upright L6?

[robmpulse]

Screaming won't help you make more sense. The two valve-train argument may actually make sense if the engine weighs the same. Fortunately, they don't.

If you've got empirical evidence that the center of gravity in the S54 is lower than the S65, I'd like to see it. Until then, why would a 90 degrees V-8 have a higher center of gravity than a 60 degrees upright L6?

I WAS NOT YELLING. MOST EVERYONE AROUND HERE KNOWS THAT.

DO YOU FAIL TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE IN CENTER OF GRAVITY AND WEIGHT?

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS LIGHTER, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT'S CENTER OF GRAVITY.

I GUESS BY YOUR STANDARDS, A KIA THAT WEIGHS MUCH LESS THAN AN M5 SHOULD HANDLE BETTER AROUND A TRACK? :rolleyes

WHY DON'T YOU PROVIDE YOUR SCIENTIFIC PROOF TO DISPROVE MY STATEMENT. AFTER ALL, MY STATEMENT WAS JUST A SUGGESTION, NEVER STATED AS PURE FACT.

;)

[Goat128]

For starters the v8 only has one air intake...

[robmpulse]

for starters the v8 only has one air intake...

sorry, i was not clear on that one. Wrong choice of words.

Larger intake

[Goat128]

Yeah while BMW is presently working on the next generation z4 it seems highly unlikely to dump a new lump into the old z4, there is too much design and retooling necessary. I would like to see it in the new one.

[DrRT]

Please don't come tell me that the new V8 weights less than the I6 engine on the old M3. That is not the point.

The point is that since the above is true then BMW should be able to make 6 cylinder that is a LOT lighter than the old M3 engine AND produce more HP.

That is what I would like to see, something along the lines of a Porsche 911 GT3 engine interms of hp/liter which revs up to insane RPM (~ 9000 RPM). That would be perfect for the new Z4M.

[Serious]

That is what I would like to see, something along the lines of a Porsche 911 GT3 engine interms of hp/liter which revs up to insane RPM (~ 9000 RPM). That would be perfect for the new Z4M.

rumor has it the s65 (e92 m3 v8) was developed to operate with a 9000rpm rev limit ... but at the last minute the engineers lowed the redline to 8400rpm to improve longevity.

[///M3Vader4dr]

N54B3001'd Z4 would be :drool:

[The HACK]

Please don't come tell me that the new V8 weights less than the I6 engine on the old M3. That is not the point.

The point is that since the above is true then BMW should be able to make 6 cylinder that is a LOT lighter than the old M3 engine AND produce more HP.

That is what I would like to see, something along the lines of a Porsche 911 GT3 engine interms of hp/liter which revs up to insane RPM (~ 9000 RPM). That would be perfect for the new Z4M.

Not without force induction. The S54 was able to sustain 8,000RPM by using a lot of forged internal parts and expensive materials for crank bearings, because in order to squeeze in 3.2 liters they had to stroke the crank, since boring it would result in cylinder walls way too thin to survive 8,000RPM. And they had to use an iron block in order have a block strong enough to survive the violent forces of (at one time) the fastest moving piston in production. BMW engineers have readily admitted that the S54 was going to be the HIGHEST output 6 cylinder they could possibly make for a production vehicle.

Since you brought up Porsche, please name me one NA Porsche engine that makes 333hp with 3.2 liters.

[spookymilk]

Not without force induction. The S54 was able to sustain 8,000RPM by using a lot of forged internal parts and expensive materials for crank bearings, because in order to squeeze in 3.2 liters they had to stroke the crank, since boring it would result in cylinder walls way too thin to survive 8,000RPM. And they had to use an iron block in order have a block strong enough to survive the violent forces of (at one time) the fastest moving piston in production. BMW engineers have readily admitted that the S54 was going to be the HIGHEST output 6 cylinder they could possibly make for a production vehicle.

Since you brought up Porsche, please name me one NA Porsche engine that makes 333hp with 3.2 liters.

How about a 3.6L engine that makes 415hp and 300lb-ft. of torque or the new directed injected 3.8L with 385hp?

Engine symmetry has a lot to do with how well balanced a motor will be and how the chassis reacts to the forces of the motor.

My guess is that the 4.0L V8 will be just as balanced (I have no idea what the firing pattern of the S65 is, but my guess is it's not radically different than a conventional V8) as it most likely has 4 cylinders at ignition point as 4 cylinders are just ending their travel to the end of their stroke. A v arrangement engine also has more balance as the outward and inward forces of the cylinders firing are counteracted more so than an inline arrangement.

[M wannabe]

Since the E90/92 M3's release, BMW has stated they are focusing R&D into turbocharged engines with smaller displacements. I would not be surprised if the next M3 was a supercharged inline 6.

That said, that's a reason alone we won't see a heavy, unneeded engine, in a small sporty coupe/roadster.

sorry, but to say BMW will go Supercharger on the M rather than Turbo is just retarded. What manufacturer has actually gone with smaller engines over the years in their Marque cars? NO ONE! The most efficient superchargers are still not as good as a well built turbo system. Turbo systems can just be played with too much by aftermarket.

BMW makes Mini - Mini in 07 went from S/C to Turbo = better power, better fuel mileage and a way more attractive purchase in my eyes. I doubt they would do the reverse after making the 335i. Hard to say for sure though.

ZR1 vette now has a S/C but it also has a $100,000 pluss price tag, 6.2liters and the blower itself requires 130hp just to run it.

[DrRT]

How about a 3.6L engine that makes 415hp and 300lb-ft. of torque or the new directed injected 3.8L with 385hp?

My point exactly.

At 115 hp per liter the boxer engine in the Porsche is pretty much aspirated insanity for a production engine.

With that same math: 115hp/L * 3.3 L ~ 380 hp

BMW could build such an engine and make it featherweight. But my bet is they are just going to stick the V8 on the Z4M. The new bonnet (from the disguised photos) do look like it has the space to accommodate it.

If they do put the V8 then hell... at least make the damn Z4M substantially lighter than the old one, NOT HEAVIER!

[Rakshas]

My point exactly.

At 115 hp per liter the boxer engine in the Porsche is pretty much aspirated insanity for a production engine.

With that same math: 115hp/L * 3.3 L ~ 380 hp

BMW could build such an engine and make it featherweight. But my bet is they are just going to stick the V8 on the Z4M. The new bonnet (from the disguised photos) do look like it has the space to accommodate it.

If they do put the V8 then hell... at least make the damn Z4M substantially lighter than the old one, NOT HEAVIER!

Why bother spending the money to engineer such a performance six? Most of the groundwork for a high revving, high performance M V8 was done with the S85 V10, whose development costs were diffused out over the M5 and M6, not to mention the upcoming X5M and X6M. A six cylinder would need totally different block designs, head, crank, etc etc etc All of which adds up to money. Not to mention that engine would only be usable in the Z and 3 chassis.

It's a simple cost effective decision. Porsche puts Flat 6's in all their cars, including their racecars, so the cost is diffused. BMW racecars use V8's, and most of their performance range is on V engines. Why waste money on something that a MINISCULE part of the consumer base will care about?

[jbergum]

Until the Z8's aluminum chasis bent from hitting a pot hole and bmw refused to pay your 14k bill.



BMW is proving the bs direction they're going if they don't make a Z4M for the next gen.


Or you could learn to drive and not hit pot holes...

and realize BMW is a business and they are about making money so they will do what makes money...

[jbergum]

ohh... and you can't win em all... obviously your part of the not winning

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

bmw racecars haven't used V8's outside of the M3 GTR and F1 there have been no others.

There are plenty of more powerful I6's including those in many TVR's that are big 6's. The s38 was more powerful and was made 15 years before. That's besides the point though.


The v8 doesn't have a higher center of gravity and IMO is a better engine, you're fooling yourself if you think so.

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

Or you could learn to drive and not hit pot holes...

and realize BMW is a business and they are about making money so they will do what makes money...

Or you could not build a sh!tty frame for a road car. You've never hit a pot hole :rolleyes. You're an idiot if you think they shouldn't take responsibility for a defective product whether or not they're there to make money. It's a matter of standing behind your f^ck up of a car. It's also a halo car that's not made with the purpose of making loads of money.

[Rakshas]

bmw racecars haven't used V8's outside of the M3 GTR and F1 there have been no others.

There are plenty of more powerful I6's including those in many TVR's that are big 6's. The s38 was more powerful and was made 15 years before. That's besides the point though.


The v8 doesn't have a higher center of gravity and IMO is a better engine, you're fooling yourself if you think so.

The S38 was more powerful than the S65? I can't think of more than 2 I6's(off the top of my head, 911 GT3 and TVR 4.0l) that make more than 415hp, without forced induction.

Also, the M3 GTR is the only modern BMW backed racer I can think of, and BMW specifically pulled it from the series because the I6 would be too much trouble to make competitive, and the V8 was illegal.

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

The S38 was more powerful than the S65? I can't think of more than 2 I6's(off the top of my head, 911 GT3 and TVR 4.0l) that make more than 415hp, without forced induction.

Also, the M3 GTR is the only modern BMW backed racer I can think of, and BMW specifically pulled it from the series because the I6 would be too much trouble to make competitive, and the V8 was illegal.

More powerful than the S54, and yeah the TVR and Porsche engines are the only ones that comes to mind so maybe I exaggerated a little when I said plenty. I also wasn't saying more powerful than the S65, I was saying more powerful than the S54. The v8 wasn't illegal until Porsche cried and had ALMS change the rules. They raced the s54 for a while but were very uncompetitive.

Way more powerful I6 :D
http://i38.tinypic.com/fz3p5j.jpg

[Rakshas]

More powerful than the S54, and yeah the TVR and Porsche engines are the only ones that comes to mind so maybe I exaggerated a little when I said plenty. I also wasn't saying more powerful than the S65, I was saying more powerful than the S54. The v8 wasn't illegal until Porsche cried and had ALMS change the rules. They raced the S54 for a while but were very uncompetitive.

Yeah that's the problem now, everyone else is above 400hp: Audi, Benz, Cadillac, Lexus etc. BMW needs 400 hp to compete, and they simply cannot wring that out of a 6 cylinder motor without dropping MAJOR development coin.

[Amir@AvusAutosport]

Yeah that's the problem now, everyone else is above 400hp: Audi, Benz, Cadillac, Lexus etc. BMW needs 400 hp to compete, and they simply cannot wring that out of a 6 cylinder motor without dropping MAJOR development coin.

I agree completely, I was just proving s54 fan boys wrong. Like I posted above, I like the S65 more than I like the s54. The Days of NA 6's are over. Shoot with CAFE coming the days of NA power are over period

[ken_vs_ryu]

s54 is the worst engine bmw has ever made.

they should slap the n54 in there so people can forget how ugly the z4 is.

[Serious]

sorry but m3 csl had a s54 crankin out 360hp.

360hp/3.2L = 112.5 hp/L

while still not 997gt3 high... its still amazing.

[DrRT]

Why bother spending the money to engineer such a performance six? Most of the groundwork for a high revving, high performance M V8 was done with the S85 V10, whose development costs were diffused out over the M5 and M6, not to mention the upcoming X5M and X6M. A six cylinder would need totally different block designs, head, crank, etc etc etc All of which adds up to money. Not to mention that engine would only be usable in the Z and 3 chassis.

It's a simple cost effective decision. Porsche puts Flat 6's in all their cars, including their racecars, so the cost is diffused. BMW racecars use V8's, and most of their performance range is on V engines. Why waste money on something that a MINISCULE part of the consumer base will care about?

I guess you are right. I was hoping you were not. But...

Funny thing is the 3.0L twin turbo has more technology packed in it than the new V8.