i am going to start a war this morning. ROFL

[Tony Soprano]

so...................my car is a 97 M3/4/AUTO(psh) and its stock, 114k. small mods include KN drop in, and a custom exhaust using a magnaflow muffler.

my bud has a 96 M3/2/5. hes totally stock down to the air filter with 130k.

we've ran before for fun, i figured he was going to KILL me well...he didnt. we ran from a 40 roll, him in second me in "S". this was two months ago, we ran dead even, and i JUST pulled(half a fender) to about 90 or so.

so, we ran again yesterday from a 50ish roll. i pulled a full car to 110. hes a DECENT driver, not amazing, but he didnt miss a shift, or miss shift. he was shifting farily quickly. so whats going on?

his car is in good mechincal shape, good plugs, coils, fuel filter. why am im pulling him? shouldnt it be the other way around? i know from a dig that the 5sps are faster, but is the slushbox handicap null from a roll?

discuss.

p.s i have 5sp swap plans in the worx. :buttrock

[Xiphos]

Could just be that his car isnt running in top shape, and yours is.

There is more that goes into the engine performance than just coils, plugs, and a fuel filter.

[Brent 930]

This thread belongs in the Kill Stories sub forum.

[Tony Soprano]

This thread belongs in the Kill Stories sub forum.


its not really a kill story, technically i guess it is. i dont care that i beat him all the much, im just wondering if anyone else has had this happen and if the auto can hang with the 5sp in roll situations.


i tried to google trap speeds between the two configurations, but had no luck.

[joe91985]

go with the 6 speed if your gonna swap... well worth it and lots of info on here about it. I want my trans to go so I can go from the 5 to the 6

[Tony Soprano]

did both of you have a passenger and or no passengers

mano e mano. i have my spare removed, he doesnt. my car wieght just over 3100lbs w/o me in it and with 1/4 tank.

i just interested to hear any ideas. i havent dyno'd or 1320'd my car so i dont know what its making, or what it traps at to give you a power idea.

[Xiphos]

Do you have any stickers on your car?

[Tony Soprano]

Do you have any stickers on your car?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/versionJDM/DSC01101.jpg

:shifty no. jerk. ;)

[will v]

Car looks real nice with the Fikse's

3100 sure is light including the driver - have you reduced weight in anyother way?

[Tony Soprano]

Car looks real nice with the Fikse's

3100 sure is light including the driver - have you reduced weight in anyother way?
no, it was just OVER 3100lbs without me in it. it was an old city dump scale so who know how accurate it is. :lol

[CLEANM3whipz]

Is your car painted 2 tones of silver? lol arctic and titanium?

[Devius1]

Are you the 1st owner?



how much do you REALLY know about your car. :eek:
them wheel weren't cheap back then...

not unusual to find a tranny chipped/3:91 LSD swapped auto DD. :D

[Tony Soprano]

Are you the 1st owner?



how much do you REALLY know about your car. :eek:
them wheel weren't cheap back then...

not unusual to find a tranny chipped/3:91 LSD swapped auto DD. :D


yes, the car is two toned. i know for sure is isnt 3.91'd as my hwy rpms are low and ive used a gear calculator to validate this. it maybe tranny chipped, it shits faster than most autos, but im not for sure.

i know that that PO was a surgeon in seattle, that he did euro-delivery of the car and that it was very well maintained.

[libravcs]

You shouldnt be surprised at all. The E36 M3's auto is precise and shifts quickly. The software makes sure it shifts at JUST the optimum time. Each time, every time. From a standing start, he probably would have gotten 1/2 car length on you, assuming he launched perfectly. But once rolling? The auto E36 gives up very little, if anything, to a 5 speed E36 M3. (all factors considered equal.). And your removed spare made it a bit more even, as your car (depending on overall options) weighs more than his.
If you listen to 1/2 of the 19 yr olds on BFC, they have you thinking the Auto M3 is a slug. You've just found out otherwise. Nice looking car, and those wheels are VERY nice. Quality forged. Light AND strong.

[Tony Soprano]

You shouldnt be surprised at all. The E36 M3's auto is precise and shifts quickly. The software makes sure it shifts at JUST the optimum time. Each time, every time. From a standing start, he probably would have gotten 1/2 car length on you, assuming he launched perfectly. But once rolling? The auto E36 gives up very little, if anything, to a 5 speed E36 M3. (all factors considered equal.). And your removed spare made it a bit more even, as your car (depending on overall options) weighs more than his.
If you listen to 1/2 of the 19 yr olds on BFC, they have you thinking the Auto M3 is a slug. You've just found out otherwise. Nice looking car, and those wheels are VERY nice. Quality forged. Light AND strong.

well thank you sir. :)

[bmdubbayoo]

my previous 95 m3 was a slushbox but i had a few things done....3.91 lsd, jim c chip, cai, and custom catback....i smoked many stock v8s on rolls with that car....people used to laugh when i told them it was an auto....they stopped after they realized they couldn't pass me up....don't be surprised, your car is quick and very convenient...

[typeS4]

If you listen to 1/2 of the 19 yr olds on BFC

All arguments aside.

He is 100% right with this statement. There is so much misinfomation passed around here because everyone believes what they read.

PS: Tony, our cars are twins except I'm all Arctic silver.

[Tony Soprano]

all arguments aside.

He is 100% right with this statement. There is so much misinfomation passed around here because everyone believes what they read.

Ps: Tony, our cars are twins except i'm all arctic silver.
m3/4 ftw!

[ptldM3]

Maby his car has bad compression, 02 sensor,vanos or a vaccum leak?

[Tony Soprano]

Maby his car has bad compression, 02 sensor,vanos or a vaccum leak?


maybe theres not much of a difference from a roll. :confused like i say, his car runs "great." maybe it does have some unseen problems that arent throwing codes or making the car feel different.

[Rennmeister M3]

There's a distinct power difference. It sounds like he was wasting alot of time shifting, or his car isn't making power on par with yours.

[Jonathan 90 M3]

What wheels does he have on his 5spd? Those Fikses only weigh around 17lb/wheel and can easily add at least 1-2 mph to your trap speed compared to running stock cast e36 wheels. If he has stockers or worse, say some cast 18" wheels, that will really hurt him from a roll.

[Tony Soprano]

What wheels does he have on his 5spd? Those Fikses only weigh around 17lb/wheel and can easily add at least 1-2 mph to your trap speed compared to running stock cast e36 wheels. If he has stockers or worse, say some cast 18" wheels, that will really hurt him from a roll.


hes on stock DSII's.

[dust4life]

you've got a m50 swap and exhaust while he's chugging along with a bone stock obd1. even with similarly healthy motors you should have a couple ponies on him. you won't loose much if anything to the AT in a straight line from a roll

[Tony Soprano]

you've got a m50 swap and exhaust while he's chugging along with a bone stock obd1. even with similarly healthy motors you should have a couple ponies on him. you won't loose much if anything to the AT in a straight line from a roll


the M50 isnt on the car yet. ive got KN drop in, and custom exhaust with a magnaflow muffler.

[jworms]

There's a distinct power difference. It sounds like he was wasting alot of time shifting, or his car isn't making power on par with yours.
+1

there's really no other explanation given the information provided in this thread.

if you want to eliminate other variables go get both cars on the dyno or take them to the 1/4 mile track.

[Tony Soprano]

im planning on baselining here soon, so maybe that will shed some light on the subject.

[USCG M3]

Given you have some work done to your car, a cutsom exhaust will save you at least 20lbs, no spare about 30lbs with the tire, and not to mention stock you have more torque,helps accleration at any speed not just from a dig, than he does. Providing you cars were equal in every way regardless of tranmission you would still be half a tenth in the quater based on you weight savings alone and that is not even taking into consideration the fact you have much lighter wheels as well. You should be him every time, autos may lack a little bit off the line but on the roll the shift perfect everytime, most drivers cant do that with a five speed. minus a 100lbs = about a tenth

[runnerboy]

Given you have some work done to your car, a cutsom exhaust will save you at least 20lbs, no spare about 30lbs with the tire, and not to mention stock you have more torque,helps accleration at any speed not just from a dig, than he does. Providing you cars were equal in every way regardless of tranmission you would still be half a tenth in the quater based on you weight savings alone and that is not even taking into consideration the fact you have much lighter wheels as well. You should be him every time, autos may lack a little bit off the line but on the roll the shift perfect everytime, most drivers cant do that with a five speed. minus a 100lbs = about a tenth

try 50 pounds :)

[Tony Soprano]

hes a 96, so hes a 3.2 too.

[Boracay]

Why dont you both dyno the cars and split the runs 2 each.. (save on the cost) and see how each of you compare.

[libravcs]

A lot of manual drivers entering this thread feeling a bit threatened. lol. There HAS to be a post somewhere on here showing the factory 30-60 and 60-100 stats of two stock E36 M3's, one with auto, one with manual. I am almost certain I've seen it here. The difference is nil. Granted, a manual "feels" better and obviously allows less driveline hp loss and will get you qucker in 0-60 assuming the driver is shifting perfectly. But what I've learned over the years, is that what occurs on the street can often be a bit different than what occurs on a dyno or on a forum. the OP is apparently getting his moneys worth. No need to reject him and tell him to go to a dyno. Let him beat manuals in peace. lol

[Tony Soprano]

it makes sense that from a roll, the two would be even i guess.

[nighthawk328i]

I am not sure how they'd be even. I have no experience in an automatic m3, but from what i know it would take your transmission a few seconds to downshift so depending on reaction time you may have had him or may not. It all depends. If you where going by honks or something obviously whoever honks is going to be much quicker than whoever doesn't. I'd go to the track or if you really want to test it and save money, a stop light at 2 in the morning is always a good test. That way you can get a more accurate test because it would be car vs car without a reaction time flaw or anything else of the sort.

[libravcs]

I have never been in any car, auto manual or whatever..that takes "a few seconds" to downshift. WTF

[Tony Soprano]

I am not sure how they'd be even. I have no experience in an automatic m3, but from what i know it would take your transmission a few seconds to downshift so depending on reaction time you may have had him or may not. It all depends. If you where going by honks or something obviously whoever honks is going to be much quicker than whoever doesn't. I'd go to the track or if you really want to test it and save money, a stop light at 2 in the morning is always a good test. That way you can get a more accurate test because it would be car vs car without a reaction time flaw or anything else of the sort.

it down shifts decently quick. in S mode it will hold itself in gear, so if im rolling at 40, i can poke the gas get the car to down shift and be holding in gear just like a 5sp car. its kinda cool actually.

[GDS357]

Pretty interesting... Doesn't the Auto Trans also weigh over 100 lbs more than the Manual Trans?

[jworms]

A lot of manual drivers entering this thread feeling a bit threatened. lol. There HAS to be a post somewhere on here showing the factory 30-60 and 60-100 stats of two stock E36 M3's, one with auto, one with manual. I am almost certain I've seen it here. The difference is nil. Granted, a manual "feels" better and obviously allows less driveline hp loss and will get you qucker in 0-60 assuming the driver is shifting perfectly. But what I've learned over the years, is that what occurs on the street can often be a bit different than what occurs on a dyno or on a forum. the OP is apparently getting his moneys worth. No need to reject him and tell him to go to a dyno. Let him beat manuals in peace. lol

it also seems like some auto E36 M3 owners are latching on to this 'kill' like it's supposed to happen just like it did. i regret to inform you, but things don't work like that in the real world.

i remember looking this up once and, if i remember right, the auto E36 M3 is about as fast as (if not slightly faster than) a stock E36 328is manual. go ahead and prove that wrong with some factual data.

with that said, i'm sticking with either the manual driver couldn't drive, or the auto E36 M3 is making the same, or more, power than the manual.

[Tony Soprano]

http://www.carspecsdirectory.com/BMW.htm

listed here is 5.5 0-60 and 14.0 for 1997 m3/4 5sp.

328i is listed over 6 to 60 and 15.4. i dont think an auto trans is a 1.4 sec difference.

im thinking mid 14's of an auto m3. still over half a second to full second faster than a 5sp 328i.

[jworms]

http://www.carspecsdirectory.com/BMW.htm

listed here is 5.5 0-60 and 14.0 for 1997 m3/4 5sp.

328i is listed over 6 to 60 and 15.4. i dont think an auto trans is a 1.4 sec difference.

im thinking mid 14's of an auto m3. still over half a second to full second faster than a 5sp 328i.

yeah, i'm thinking an auto E36 M3 should be in the mid-high 14s trapping around 95-96mph. that's not much better than a stock 328.

[stsmark]

Auto did 0-60 in 6.7 and 1/4 in 15.3 @ 95. The weight diff was listed at 76 lbs.

By doing the rolling start you set the auto up to show its strengths. No slip from the torque converter and quick shift to second, in sport mode it shifts quick with no power reduction, probably faster than your friend. The reduced flywheel effect of your lighter wheels is non trivial as well. Its the same idea as using one of the lightened flywheels, they are just easier to turn.

My two cents, car looks great.

[GDS357]

I think he's not telling us that his friend in the other car weighs over 400 lbs. :D

[xicethugx]

The auto tranny really isnt that bad, if its in the proper mode set in gear 4, itll do some damage on a roll but not as much from a stop. This is just another auto vs manual thread.
I've owned an auto and manual m3, the manual is definitely faster but dont be fooled by the auto it still is an m3!

I just think that your car is probably in better mechanical condition then your friend. I could believe that they are the same but not you having a car on him if both cars are fairly stock.

[racer m]

[quote=Tony Soprano;13642228 difference.

im thinking mid 14's of an auto m3. still over half a second to full second faster than a 5sp 328i.[/quote]
I am in the mid 14's when the sub comes out of My M, but with the sub in she was running 14.78 at 94 to 97 mph

[Tony Soprano]

I am in the mid 14's when the sub comes out of My M, but with the sub in she was running 14.78 at 94 to 97 mph


good to know. 97 is a heathly trap speed. my stock s2k was trapping 98-100 stock. :buttrock

[Tony Soprano]

oh and i dont want this thread to turn into a auto vs. manuel thread, but more of an honest comparison.

like someone mentioned eariler, their still both M3's. and before you pipe up and spout off about how the auto m3 is a bastardization of the m badge, just realize that the WHOLE ENTIRE U.S m3 is a bastardization of the m baadge. doesnt make it any less of a badass car IMHO though. :)

[Tony Soprano]

ive been googling this all morning, mostly cause im bored. heres what ive found.

i seen times as slow a 7.0 to 60 and 15.5 and as fast a 6.0 to 60 and 14.4, stock cars automatice of course.

ive seen 0 to 60's for the 5sp 6.2's and 14.7's and 5.3 and 13.8's. stock 5sps.

i think that since BMW underrates their 0-60's and 1320's and so little offical testing has been done on the autos since their relativley rare that its hard to get a decent average.

i honestly think that the 6.0-6.2 and 14.4-14.7's is what most autos will do. that combined with the average 5sp driver makes for one helluva roll race i guess.

i might have the dinan tranny software as my car seems to shift pretty dang quick, is there a way to tell? this morning it almost barked itself into second. lol.

[ZoomZoom951]

I bet you have software and maybe some other mods that you are unaware of.

[Tony Soprano]

I bet you have software and maybe some other mods that you are unaware of.


heres what i no i dont have.

headers
3.91
shark injector
m50

where is the trannny computer located, i imagine its probably got a big D on it if were dinan tranny chipped.

[Moron95M3]

how do you do the math to know if you have a 3.91??

Im just curious - i have know clue whats in mine

[ZoomZoom951]

u prolly have the whole dinan intake 3.5" with big bore Throttle body and since you dropped weight with an upgraded exhaust i think that would help you as well.

[Tony Soprano]

how do you do the math to know if you have a 3.91??

Im just curious - i have know clue whats in mine


I looked up the gear ratios and then used a gear calculator to get the MPH in each gear.

i have the stock intake, with the stock MAF and TB.

[typeS4]

u prolly have the whole dinan intake 3.5" with big bore Throttle body and since you dropped weight with an upgraded exhaust i think that would help you as well.

Lol wut?

Love to hear the reasoning behind this.

[Tony Soprano]

maybe its just that auto=5sp from a roll.

[jworms]

maybe its just that auto=5sp from a roll.

the trap speeds say otherwise.

[Tony Soprano]

this is interesting.....http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&rlz=1T4GFRD_en___US283&resnum=0&q=automatic%20m3&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

auto vert, vs. Mustang GT with X-pipe.

[Tony Soprano]

the trap speeds say otherwise.

i seen 98-100 for 5sp and 96-98 for auto, with 5sp marigin for error that gets close.

[jworms]

i seen 98-100 for 5sp and 96-98 for auto, with 5sp marigin for error that gets close.

where have you seen 98mph trap for an auto? that seems very high. but yes, anything can happen on the street, does that mean that it should happen? no.

[Tony Soprano]

where have you seen 98mph trap for an auto? that seems very high. but yes, anything can happen on the street, does that mean that it should happen? no.
from just searching google and reading off different boards. im plannin on running my car one of these days.

[jworms]

from just searching google and reading off different boards. im plannin on running my car one of these days.

do you have a link for the 98mph stock auto trap? or even for a 97mph stock auto trap?

[Tony Soprano]

do you have a link for the 98mph stock auto trap? or even for a 97mph stock auto trap?


ah, i just closed google. lemme go huntin again...

[Tony Soprano]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381894 no speeds, and kinda vauge.

this link is the source for the one above. http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60_Quarter_Mile_Times/B_0-60times.html

http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm

all those links have the same times, and no traps or other test data. im not an auto fanboi, but i garuntee that my car is faster then 6.7 to 60 and 15.3's.

[Tony Soprano]

http://www.jdmuniverse.com/forums/stocktimes.html

more of the same. i also have a hard time beleiving that a luxo 5sp(6.6 to 60 and 14.9) is a full sec slower to 60 than a sport(0-60 5.5 and 14.0).

[Tony Soprano]

5sp info. http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=1997&make=BMW&model=M3&trimid=-1

what we really need to find is a auto dyno vs. a 5sp dyno. then with wieghts we can continue this great bench racing debate! ROFL

[Xiphos]

Dude, start editing old posts haha.

[jworms]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381894 no speeds, and kinda vauge.

this link is the source for the one above. http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60_Quarter_Mile_Times/B_0-60times.html

http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm

all those links have the same times, and no traps or other test data. im not an auto fanboi, but i garuntee that my car is faster then 6.7 to 60 and 15.3's.

http://www.jdmuniverse.com/forums/stocktimes.html

more of the same. i also have a hard time beleiving that a luxo 5sp(6.6 to 60 and 14.9) is a full sec slower to 60 than a sport(0-60 5.5 and 14.0).
yeah none of those have trap speeds except for the 5spd. the trap speed is what i'm more interested in. the ET really isn't as important.

after a quick search, i found this link: http://www.m3zine.com/index.php/E36-M3.html
at the bottom it says:

Car & Driver ran an automatic-transmission 3-liter M3 through the strip procedures and returned 0–30 mph in 2.6 seconds, 0–60 mph in 6.7 seconds, 0–100 mph in 17.1 seconds, and a 15.3-sec/95-mph ;-mile pass. Both top speed (137 mph) and average fuel consumption (24 US mpg) were reportedly unaffected. Curb weight was up 72 lbs, at a reported 3,304 lbs.

[Tony Soprano]

yeah none of those have trap speeds except for the 5spd. the trap speed is what i'm more interested in. the ET really isn't as important.

after a quick search, i found this link: http://www.m3zine.com/index.php/E36-M3.html
at the bottom it says:


good find! 3.0 trapping a 95, so what give the s52 1 or two mph more?

[Tony Soprano]

Dude, start editing old posts haha.
sorry.:cool

[jworms]

good find! 3.0 trapping a 95, so what give the s52 1 or two mph more?

.2 more displacement + 3.23 diff :dunno

[libravcs]

Having owned both, and speaking from experience. There is NO question that a manual E36 M3 will beat an Auto from 0-60 and 1/4 mile. (my argument assumes both are stock, and the driver of the manual is shifting properly)

But..from a ROLLING start...say both from 30 or 40mph? difference is..NIL

[Volf]

My slush box pulls hard too. When I had 3.91s in it, well, it was insane. Difference between an auto and a 5spd isn't what all the fanboys want you to believe.


In my experience the only difference between the auto and 5spd is from a dig. 5spd beats out the auto because it can launch effectively. 3.91s in an auto and power brake closes this gap tremendously as well.

[Tony Soprano]

.2 more displacement + 3.23 diff :dunno

97's have the 3.38 diff. :alright

[Tony Soprano]

My slush box pulls hard too. When I had 3.91s in it, well, it was insane. Difference between an auto and a 5spd isn't what all the fanboys want you to believe.


In my experience the only difference between the auto and 5spd is from a dig. 5spd beats out the auto because it can launch effectively. 3.91s in an auto and power brake closes this gap tremendously as well.

ive been trying to find a local to trade diffs with forever it seems.

[jworms]

Having owned both, and speaking from experience. There is NO question that a manual E36 M3 will beat an Auto from 0-60 and 1/4 mile. (my argument assumes both are stock, and the driver of the manual is shifting properly)

But..from a ROLLING start...say both from 30 or 40mph? difference is..NIL
where is your evidence to support this? the trap speeds give a pretty good idea of how the cars will perform from a roll and they show the 5spd has a pretty significant advantage in that arena.

[TheM3nsah]

mano e mano. i have my spare removed, he doesnt. my car wieght just over 3100lbs w/o me in it and with 1/4 tank.

i just interested to hear any ideas. i havent dyno'd or 1320'd my car so i dont know what its making, or what it traps at to give you a power idea.

wtf is 1320?

[libravcs]

where is your evidence to support this?.

No dynos and no gtech pros or nothing like that. I neer claimed that. I dont purchase my cars for dynos, I purchase them to drive on the street. LOL. As you pointed out, what happens on the street/highway can be different than what might be expected on paper. (within reason..a Ford Focus will NOT beat a vette..lol).

[Tony Soprano]

wtf is 1320?

1320FT=1/4 mile.

[libravcs]

Soprano. Lot of auto hate in this thread. Dont get me wrong. All things considered, a manual transmission is more efficient, can be more fun, and allows superior 0-60 launching. But in reality, most arent doing 0-60 that often. most runs are from rolls. And with that in mind...combined with the 3.91. Well, Im preaching to the choir. You've seen the results. Thats all that matters. Enjoy friend! And dont money shift. Oh wait..lol.

[Tony Soprano]

i have got to get 3.91's!

[Volf]

i have got to get 3.91's!

Yes you do. Great upgrade for an auto car.

[jworms]

No dynos and no gtech pros or nothing like that. I neer claimed that. I dont purchase my cars for dynos, I purchase them to drive on the street. LOL. As you pointed out, what happens on the street/highway can be different than what might be expected on paper. (within reason..a Ford Focus will NOT beat a vette..lol).
right, and this is a case similar to the ford focus vs vette (obviously not as exagerated). it's like a mildly modded 328 owner claiming to beat a 5spd e36 M3. it just doesn't happen unless something is wrong.


Soprano. Lot of auto hate in this thread. Dont get me wrong. All things considered, a manual transmission is more efficient, can be more fun, and allows superior 0-60 launching. But in reality, most arent doing 0-60 that often. most runs are from rolls. And with that in mind...combined with the 3.91. Well, Im preaching to the choir. You've seen the results. Thats all that matters. Enjoy friend! And dont money shift. Oh wait..lol.
i don't see any hate for the auto in this thread. in fact, i think you're the only one making such claims without evidence to support them. it's been a very civilized thread thus far and you keep trying to derail it with your 'auto hate' comments. just stop trying to stir the pot. not only is it against the rules, but it doesn't put you in a very good light.

[Tony Soprano]

yes this has been a decent thread.

[libravcs]

i have got to get 3.91's!

Sorry. Mis spoke. With the stock diff, you've experienced the results. With the 3.91? insanity.

[Tony Soprano]

im trying to get an appt to dyno....

[racer m]

good to know. 97 is a healthy trap speed. my stock s2k was trapping 98-100 stock. :buttrock
Also i had a 2.2 60 ft time


I'm trying to get an appt to dyno....
you probably wont get an accurate dyno result do to ASC.

[Tony Soprano]

Also i had a 2.2 60 ft time


you probably wont get an accurate dyno result do to ASC.


i cant just turn it off?

[racer m]

you can but it will still kick on

[Tony Soprano]

you can but it will still kick on


id doesnt do that during burn outs. LOL..

how did you do your dyno then?

[Rennmeister M3]

Soprano. Lot of auto hate in this thread. Dont get me wrong. All things considered, a manual transmission is more efficient, can be more fun, and allows superior 0-60 launching. But in reality, most arent doing 0-60 that often. most runs are from rolls. And with that in mind...combined with the 3.91. Well, Im preaching to the choir. You've seen the results. Thats all that matters. Enjoy friend! And dont money shift. Oh wait..lol.

Alot of butt dyno assumptions too.

You don't just magically overcome a 8 - 10% power difference.

You can, however, overcome a poor or moderate driver.

[Tony Soprano]

any more info on dyno'ing?

[Tony Soprano]

dyno'ing help?!?!

[racer m]

id doesnt do that during burn outs. LOL..

how did you do your dyno then?
burnouts are burnouts..... :redspot:shifty:buttrock:alright
I remember a while a back a member went to do dyno runs. He pulled somewhere in the neighbor hood of 160bhp to 180 bhp. He said his asc light was flashing on and off which led to the lower bhp numbers.


As for dynoing for me, I will never dyno, just go by what the 1320 slip tells me.

Also you can do the ACS Delete. Look up the search to do the mod.

[Tony Soprano]

hmm ill look it up. i wonder you can delete it temporarily?

[libravcs]

You don't just magically overcome a 8 - 10% power difference.

You can, however, overcome a poor or moderate driver.

You are in effect, making my point. :-)

I think you'd agree, that an ADVANCED driver, has probably gone to at LEAST one drivers school, an autocross..some sort of enhanced drivers training.

THAT population is but a small percentage of E36 M3 owners, Im sure.

So that leaves the MAJORITY of the population, which most likely falls into your "moderate" driver category.

So when a "moderate" (not even advanced) stock auto E36 driver starts off at 20 or 30mph and a "moderate" (not even poor) E36 manual driver is right next to him..based upon YOUR statement..guess what will most likely happen? Correct..the same result as the OP had.

Does that make it "right"? does that jibe with benchracing stats and dyno numbers? Does that make it popular on BFC with a heavy manual tranny population? Of course is doesn't. But in the end...does it matter? ;-)

And of COURSE a well driven, well shifted stick will beat an equivalent auto in 0-60. But on the street..as stated above..sometimes the end result isnt what the magazine numbers say.

[GacAttack]

burnouts are burnouts..... :redspot:shifty:buttrock:alright
I remember a while a back a member went to do dyno runs. He pulled somewhere in the neighbor hood of 160bhp to 180 bhp. He said his asc light was flashing on and off which led to the lower bhp numbers.


As for dynoing for me, I will never dyno, just go by what the 1320 slip tells me.

Also you can do the ACS Delete. Look up the search to do the mod.

sounds like he didn't turn off ASC. If you turn it off, it's off. The only negative to having it installed but turned off if that the ASC throttle body will slightly restrict airflow and create a little turbulence. Just a little bit.

[jworms]

You are in effect, making my point. :-)

I think you'd agree, that an ADVANCED driver, has probably gone to at LEAST one drivers school, an autocross..some sort of enhanced drivers training.

THAT population is but a small percentage of E36 M3 owners, Im sure.

So that leaves the MAJORITY of the population, which most likely falls into your "moderate" driver category.

So when a "moderate" (not even advanced) stock auto E36 driver starts off at 20 or 30mph and a "moderate" (not even poor) E36 manual driver is right next to him..based upon YOUR statement..guess what will most likely happen? Correct..the same result as the OP had.

Does that make it "right"? does that jibe with benchracing stats and dyno numbers? Does that make it popular on BFC with a heavy manual tranny population? Of course is doesn't. But in the end...does it matter? ;-)

And of COURSE a well driven, well shifted stick will beat an equivalent auto in 0-60. But on the street..as stated above..sometimes the end result isnt what the magazine numbers say.
lol. you don't need to go to an autocross, or driving school to be an advanced manual transmission driver for straight line racing. additionally, it would not require an advanced driver to exploit the performance differences between the two cars. to make up the performance deficit that the auto has, you would need a less than average driver in the manual, or car related issues, or both. the average E36 M3 driver will pull 14.0-14.3 at around 98-99mph. considering the evidence presented in this thread, that should be more than enough to pull on an E36 M3 auto.

again, we're talking about 3-5mph difference in trap speeds and half a second to a full second difference in ET. that's huge in the drag racing world! it would take a pretty bad driver to lessen that difference.

the OP posted this wanting responses on what he experience. if he was satisfied with the results of his race then he wouldn't have made the thread asking about it right? in conclusion, with the information given, we can only conclude that something wasn't quite right with the manual M3, or its driver, or both.


as far as how to dyno an automatic M3. i don't understand how traction control would interfere unless it doesn't like that the front wheels aren't moving. if you dyno in a high enough gear you surely won't be spinning the tires on the dyno. of course i may be totally wrong. i'm just basing this on other automatic transmission cars that i have dyno'd.

[Tony Soprano]

lol. you don't need to go to an autocross, or driving school to be an advanced manual transmission driver for straight line racing. additionally, it would not require an advanced driver to exploit the performance differences between the two cars. to make up the performance deficit that the auto has, you would need a less than average driver in the manual, or car related issues, or both. the average E36 M3 driver will pull 14.0-14.3 at around 98-99mph. considering the evidence presented in this thread, that should be more than enough to pull on an E36 M3 auto.

again, we're talking about 3-5mph difference in trap speeds and half a second to a full second difference in ET. that's huge in the drag racing world! it would take a pretty bad driver to lessen that difference.

the OP posted this wanting responses on what he experience. if he was satisfied with the results of his race then he wouldn't have made the thread asking about it right? in conclusion, with the information given, we can only conclude that something wasn't quite right with the manual M3, or its driver, or both.


as far as how to dyno an automatic M3. i don't understand how traction control would interfere unless it doesn't like that the front wheels aren't moving. if you dyno in a high enough gear you surely won't be spinning the tires on the dyno. of course i may be totally wrong. i'm just basing this on other automatic transmission cars that i have dyno'd.


ah thanks. my local tuner with a dyno is booked for the rest of the month so we'll have to wait and see what its making.

[libravcs]

lol. considering the evidence presented in this thread, that should be more than enough to pull on an E36 M3 auto.



Never argued that. Based on published numbers, you are correct. Key word in all of this is "should". A LOT of things "should" happen..but as we all know, in the real world, doesn't always work out that way. Example: Check out the HP figured this guy thinks he "should" be making:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1048461

:rofl:

Regarding the post above yours about ASC? Again, more false BFC info being disseminated. on the E36 M3, when you switch the ASC OFF? It is COMPLETELY OFF. Period. Geesh.

[Rennmeister M3]

I think you'd agree, that an ADVANCED driver, has probably gone to at LEAST one drivers school, an autocross..some sort of enhanced drivers training.

No, what makes a good driver is their natural ability, then experience. I've known plenty of people with track time and driving schools under their belts that can't drive for shit. They may understand an apex, early entry, drafting, etc. but you still have to feed that through your body into action.

In this instance the only thing we are looking at as a core variable is shift time. Some people are very slow at shifting, and others are very fast. If you are slow, than an auto is going to eat you up.

For what it's worth I'm not a fast driver, but I shift very quickly.



So when a "moderate" (not even advanced) stock auto E36 driver starts off at 20 or 30mph and a "moderate" (not even poor) E36 manual driver is right next to him..based upon YOUR statement..guess what will most likely happen? Correct..the same result as the OP had.

You'd have to be a pretty piss poor manual operator to lose. That or something is not quite equal with the cars. Let's face fact, we have so many various levels of runningness on E36s these days that it's easy to misconstrue results.

[jworms]

Never argued that. Based on published numbers, you are correct. Key word in all of this is "should". A LOT of things "should" happen..but as we all know, in the real world, doesn't always work out that way. Example: Check out the HP figured this guy thinks he "should" be making:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1048461

:rofl:

yes and to play on the example you mentioned before, a ford focus can beat a vette on the street. at this point i'm not sure what you are trying to argue. is it that anything can happen on the street? i don't think anyone is saying otherwise in this thread.

like i said before, the OP made this thread to solicit responses about his race. in this case he was the ford focus and he beat the vette.

[GotBHP?]

yes and to play on the example you mentioned before, a ford focus can beat a vette on the street. at this point i'm not sure what you are trying to argue. is it that anything can happen on the street? i don't think anyone is saying otherwise in this thread.

like i said before, the OP made this thread to solicit responses about his race. in this case he was the ford focus and he beat the vette.

It's like you mentioned earlier, he is trying to stir the pot, like he always does. (waiting for libravcs to make a NSX reference in the C&D Best Handling Car article in 3, 2, 1...)

Anyways, I don't think people realize how much time they sometimes spend changing gears. Sure, their arms and legs are moving frantically so it probably feels quick, but in reality it might have taken 1/2 a second to actually apply the power again.

[Tony Soprano]

yes and to play on the example you mentioned before, a ford focus can beat a vette on the street. at this point i'm not sure what you are trying to argue. is it that anything can happen on the street? i don't think anyone is saying otherwise in this thread.

like i said before, the OP made this thread to solicit responses about his race. in this case he was the ford focus and he beat the vette.
:( how about i was the auto m3 and he was the 5sp. :lol

[libravcs]

:( how about i was the auto m3 and he was the 5sp. :lol

And you won. Perhaps the results might be different from a dig..but from a roll?

Keep enjoying my friend. Keep enjoying. :D

[Tony Soprano]

It's like you mentioned earlier, he is trying to stir the pot, like he always does. (waiting for libravcs to make a NSX reference in the C&D Best Handling Car article in 3, 2, 1...)

Anyways, I don't think people realize how much time they sometimes spend changing gears. Sure, their arms and legs are moving frantically so it probably feels quick, but in reality it might have taken 1/2 a second to actually apply the power again.


good point.

[libravcs]

Anyways, I don't think people realize how much time they sometimes spend changing gears. Sure, their arms and legs are moving frantically so it probably feels quick, but in reality it might have taken 1/2 a second to actually apply the power again.

Again, supporting my point. That 8% power difference means little, if any, when that power gain is delayed (due to the human factor) getting it to the ground. An Auto in "S" mode (or even better, an SMG) will consistently hit the perfect shift points quickly each, and every time.

[jworms]

Again, supporting my point. That 8% power difference means little, if any, when that power gain is delayed (due to the human factor) getting it to the ground. An Auto in "S" mode (or even better, an SMG) will consistently hit the perfect shift points quickly each, and every time.

the trap speeds and ET points to the 8% as very significant and the human slowness factor would have to be huge to overcome it. again, what are you trying to argue? nobody is disagreeing that anything can happen on the street.

[Tony Soprano]

BUMP. im heading out to the drag strip in about an hour. ill make sure and post my times and more importantly my trap speeds. i hoping for a 14.5@97. we'll see!

[tybrones87]

sounds like he didn't turn off ASC. If you turn it off, it's off. The only negative to having it installed but turned off if that the ASC throttle body will slightly restrict airflow and create a little turbulence. Just a little bit.

I hate to bump this up since this is kinda old, but this happened to me. I dunno why it happened on the dyno, but I went to the dyno and got on the rollers, had ASC off and turned the rollers to the tune of 150 whp or so. I go to look inside the car and the ABS light was blinking off and on. The whole shop smelled like brakes. Someone actually had a video of the dyno pull and you could see smoke pouring off the brakes. Dunno how the heck to dyno this car. It was strange.

[Boracay]

Try the ASC delete ( I have a boot for cheap) and dyno in "M" mode.