Another Endless thread: e9x AT vs MT

[jpat77]

hey everyone
so i became a proud new owner of a 2008 335i 6MT Space Grey Metallic coupe (black dakota leather, Navigation, Ipod integration, bluetooth, Sport, etc) earlier this week.

This is my first Manual transmission car and before I picked it up from the dealer on Wednesday, I spent two days learning manual in my friend's car. I'm still learning and it is fun on the open road for sure.
Since im new to MT, it's also a little anxiety provoking, and somewhat stressful in traffic. I know it will become second nature soon, but I can see this getting annoying even in slow traffic, even when ive mastered it.

I've always wanted a manual because people I know say how it really helps you feel in control and the performance benefits outweigh automatic.
However after reading this article here, does it really make any kind of difference at all, especially in terms of performance?

http://www.europeancarweb.com/firstlook/0611_ec_2007_BMW_335i/index.html

here is the main quote from the article
"You would think the automatic tranny would be a performance deprivation from the manual, but this isn't so. With BMW's new innovative torque converter and hydraulic system, shifting times are an astonishing one-tenth of a second and downshifts actually skip gears with rev-matching for a truly high-performance experience. I actually think that, save for clutch slippage off the line in a drag race, the manual has no noticeable advantage over the automatic from a performance standpoint. It will be interesting to see what a chassis dyno reveals"

man maybe i should have spent the extra 1250 and gotten an automatic,
opinions?

[JunkStory]

yes

jk.. but i would recommend practicing manual more before driving the bmw so you don't screw up the clutch

[trick000]

No you will love the manual when it becomes second nature to you. Also, I've heard that automatics have more drivetrain loss than manual which translates to less HP to the wheels.

[dcwjd]

I have the manual also and love it. I've only bought manual cars. It's also helpful in bad weather because you can down shift to slow down rather then use the brakes.

[PeterC4]

A manual transmission car is a lot of fun. I do think modern automatics have improved the driving experience a lot but the advantage of manual is that you don't have to move to different gears in sequence. You'll get used to it.

[MadJoe]

Absolutely not! You're going to love the manual tranny in every situation except stop and go traffic. Unless you're one of those strange people who just prefer an auto over a manual. I know it sounds weird, but they exist. And I'm not sure I trust them. ;)

Joe

[shifterkart33]

Chicks dig manual transmissions!

My wife does anyway :D

[vibes]

You'll pick up the MT before you know it!

[eisenb11]

Auto vs manual was an issue I struggled with for a while.

On one side, BMW is a sporty car... and the sportier a car is, the more fun a manual is. Also manuals, in general, are fun. I love being in control of the shifts. As good as an automatic is, it can't tell the future - which is something you can do with a manual, so you can shift (or not) based on what you're about to do. Hills aren't even an issue because BMW's manual has that hillsaver feature (or whatever it's called).

On the other side, I don't do a lot of highway driving. Then I thought about driving to work. I live about 3.7 miles from work. On a good day it takes me about 25-30 minutes each way. On a bad day it can take 60-90 minutes!!!

I lived in MI when I had my last manual (Acura Intagra, may second to last car) and getting stuck in traffic SUCKED - but at least in, MI, it was a pretty rare occurrance.

Here, traffic is always lousy... and not just on weekdays to and from work. It's always a traffic jam trying to get anywhere.

So, for me, the annoyance of perpetually lousy traffic won over the fun of driving excitement.

[Relayer]

I just flat out hate driving automatic cars. Even SMGs/DSGs are boring to me. I've never owned an automatic in 20 years of driving, and I still love rowing the gears myself.

Now, if I lived in LA and had do to deal with that level of traffic.....

[mistercindy]

You should love the manual. I am a bit surprised that a new 335i is your first manual transmission car. I see from your profile that you have (or had) a Mazda Miata. Wasn't that a manual transmission car? If not and you're still getting used to it, then take it easy for a few hundred miles or a few weeks and before too long it'll become second nature.

But then again, I grew up on manuals. For the first 10 years of my driving all but one of the cars that I drove a lot were manuals (my Dad's Caddy being the exception). That, and I ride a motorcycle which is, of course, a manual.

[galahad05]

Auto vs manual was an issue I struggled with for a while.

On one side, BMW is a sporty car... and the sportier a car is, the more fun a manual is. Also manuals, in general, are fun. I love being in control of the shifts. As good as an automatic is, it can't tell the future - which is something you can do with a manual, so you can shift (or not) based on what you're about to do. Hills aren't even an issue because BMW's manual has that hillsaver feature (or whatever it's called).

On the other side, I don't do a lot of highway driving. Then I thought about driving to work. I live about 3.7 miles from work. On a good day it takes me about 25-30 minutes each way. On a bad day it can take 60-90 minutes!!!

I lived in MI when I had my last manual (Acura Intagra, may second to last car) and getting stuck in traffic SUCKED - but at least in, MI, it was a pretty rare occurrance.

Here, traffic is always lousy... and not just on weekdays to and from work. It's always a traffic jam trying to get anywhere.

So, for me, the annoyance of perpetually lousy traffic won over the fun of driving excitement.

Just a side observation: In your shoes (3.7 miles to/from work), I'd walk/bike to work. I've done this before, and it's good all around--heck, it even got me a date with a girl who thought I was being so environmentally-conscious.

[eisenb11]

Just a side observation: In your shoes (3.7 miles to/from work), I'd walk/bike to work. I've done this before, and it's good all around--heck, it even got me a date with a girl who thought I was being so environmentally-conscious.

Aye, I know a couple of people who live in my area who bike to work... On the bad days they'll beat me to work easily.

I think it's a little too far to walk... 3.7 miles should be about 1 hour each way (better than a bad day, but 2-3 times a normal day's drive).

I'm very afraid of the biking option, though. The path to work is ony about 20% covered by bike lanes.

Sans, bike lanes, it seems that around here, bikers are to ride in the street and not on the sidewalk. Looks like a recipe for disaster and I envision myself turning into a lifeless red smear on the road thanks to some SUV driver who was driving while talking on the phone, eating, applying makeup, and doing pilates all at the same time.

[aftp302]

You shouldn't base your choice of transmission on someone else's opinion, especially not one from a car mag.

That said, driving MT is a choice and you either want to do it or you don't. I do, and have owned nothing but MT cars in my life. Others can't be bothered, and that's why they make AT as well.

Go with your gut, but as others have suggested, give it a few weeks and you'll probably get accustomed to driving it. You could still decide that you don't want to be bothered, but at least you'll have all the information at that time.

[SocratesBMW]

Personally, I chose the step for the convenience factor primarily, but also because its faster than the MT and smoother.

[Bonds 25]

I say why only use one foot, when you can use both. I love MT, would not even consider a AT no matter what the situation (unless I could afford a nice car and a nice SUV/Truck, thus making the said SUV/Truck my 2nd vehicle)

[742]

It seems that in America these days "performance" is what happens when one mashes the "go pedal". In that case there is a lot to be said for an automatic.

However if you were to look at this from the traditional view of "performance" -- driving twisting back roads, or an outright road course, then a manual is clearly the better choice.

And keep in mind the gear ratios in the differential. BMW is making a clear trade off between the two differentials/transmissions.

[wrh3]

It really comes down to personal preference. My wife just learned to drive a manual trans a few years ago and now we don't own any auto cars (and we live in ATL, #1 on several lists for worst traffic cities). For me, driving automatic rental cars when I am out of town makes me feel like I'm in a coma. Also IMO, it is not how fast the new autos shift but how less involved I feel driving them- I will have manual trans cars as long as they continue making them ;)

[Beer Goggles]

Did they make an Auto Miata is 1999? Thought that was a new option.

[altdude85]

I learnt to drive on a manual, and I'd never consider buying an automatic as my only car. I feel that I have more control over what the car's doing with a manual, and therefore that makes it safer. Plus you get the advantage of slightly better fuel economy- assuming you shift at a low RPM.

[sleeeper]

Personally, I chose the step for the convenience factor primarily, but also because its faster than the MT and smoother.

Depends on the driver...

[Bonds 25]

Faster by what 0.1 seconds......damn I should have got an AT then....NOT

[Corky71]

Yeah it's silly to say you got the auto because of performance. Both versions are basically identical, any difference isn't even noticeable either way.

The only way i'd consider the step is if I drove in heavy traffic ALOT, otherwise MT is the only way to go, so much more fun to drive!

[brokenbimmer]

I've owned about 20 cars over the past 24 years, and most have been manuals. It just depends on the car. My 335i just happens to be an Auto Step, and I love it. With the 335i, the manual felt slighly mushy and delayed for my taste. Plus the auto is just faster than the manual for this model. Therefore, I prefer the Auto. Still, manual or Step, you can't go wrong with this car.

[mryakan]

I say why only use one foot, when you can use both.
You can do that with an AT. Actually I believe some pros consider it an advantage to be able to left foot brake instead of heel toe.

Oh btw, I don't understand why people complain about MT in traffic. If you know how to plan ahead, BMW MTs are very easy to drive in traffic, the clutch effort is relatively light that's when you have to use it since you can roll at very low speeds in 1st without stalling (5mph or less) and the high revving engine allows you to get to speed without having to shift, so unless you come to a complete stop, it is like driving a manual. I've never owned an AT and not sure if I will anytime soon unless it is a car mainly for the wife to drive.

[SocratesBMW]

Depends on the driver...

Not really, take the same driver and put them behind the wheel, AT still wins. And your left foot doesn't get tired... Oh yeah, and its faster and smoother. You guys just stick with your rotary phones, they still work better.

[RMcoolX]

In a round-about-way, I believe you were asking which version is consistently faster than the other?

That would be the AT.

[mryakan]

In a round-about-way, I believe you were asking which version is consistently faster than the other?

That would be the AT.
For the 1250$ price of an AT, I'd say someone can get a pretty good driving course and then "consistently" beat an AT with MT ;).

[carguy7]

For the 1250$ price of an AT, I'd say someone can get a pretty good driving course and then "consistently" beat an AT with MT ;).

Depends on the AT. I have had more manuals than AT so enjoy the sense of greater control from a manual and rowing the gears. When a car has a good AT, you buy manuals for the fun of it not for performance. Manuals are old technology and getting older by the day.

I am sure some driving enthusiasts hated power steering when that came out and thought that ruined the car.

[carguy7]

man maybe i should have spent the extra 1250 and gotten an automatic,
opinions?

Based on your qualms, I am not sure a manual was the right fit. If you have a lousy commute, shifting can quickly become either a bore or a chore. Shifting on a open road is fun and provides an extra driving input for greater sense of control.

[aftp302]

You can do that with an AT. Actually I believe some pros consider it an advantage to be able to left foot brake instead of heel toe.

Fortunately, most (if not all) drivers ed classes for new drivers discourage this practice because it can lead to a lot of "oops, I meant to hit the brakes not the gas" accidents. Using the same foot for both pedals helps eliminate this safety issue. I personally don't believe that 2 footed driving is a good idea for the general driving public.


When a car has a good AT, you buy manuals for the fun of it not for performance. Manuals are old technology and getting older by the day.

Exactly. I could care less if the MT is .1sec faster or slower than the AT. I drive MT because I *like* it better. I feel more connected and enjoy driving more, and with the exception of timed track events, isn't that what its all about??

[azhrei]

I agree with the two-footed comment. In autocrosses, an expert driver might use both feet (one on the brake, one on the accelerator) but many of them don't because the technique doesn't translate well from AT to MT.

Personally, I have use both feet in an autocross and found that with an AT I could keep the revs way up while still controlling my speed through a tight turn. It took a lot of practice, but the car in question didn't shift the AT nearly as fast as the AT in the 335i shifts, so at the time it was a good technique. Not sure I would use it now in my AT 335.

And with the paddle shifters, the upshift/downshift is quite easy, especially for a driver who can anticipate upcoming changes and be ready for them -- compare that to a driver who must remove their hand from the steering wheel to shift while making a curcial tight turn and feathering the clutch and throttle at the same time... I think the AT has a clear advantage in that situation. Granted, that's not a normal street driving situation.

[psucelticXI]

I have the manual also and love it. I've only bought manual cars. It's also helpful in bad weather because you can down shift to slow down rather then use the brakes.

You can do the same thing with the "manual mode" of the Steptronic..

[mryakan]

Fortunately, most (if not all) drivers ed classes for new drivers discourage this practice because it can lead to a lot of "oops, I meant to hit the brakes not the gas" accidents. Using the same foot for both pedals helps eliminate this safety issue. I personally don't believe that 2 footed driving is a good idea for the general driving public.


I agree, I wasn't recommending it for the average joe go, but for someone who already has pretty good driving skills, it can be a big advantage. I had an AT rental for a month or so when I had surgery on my right knee and it was difficult to move one foot from the gas to brake pedal so I tried left foot braking. It took a while to get used to since my brain and left foot were used to depressing a clutch not modulating a brake, but within a couple of days it became like second nature to me.

[jpat77]

Thanks for everyones' reply on this.

I just got back from a weekend trip driving the car from palo alto area to Sacramento (260 miles round trip) and I can definitely say I enjoy driving the manual on the open road and freeways, more so than I would with an automatic I'd imagine.

Even during slow moving traffic its not too bad and im sure ive still got room to improve. As mryakan said, I can just slow crawl without stalling at low speeds when traffic is boggy.

Oh yeah and my gf said it was kinda turning her on watching me drive stick, so i guess that settles it hehe.

Anyways I think the bottom line with the 335 is that the people who buy automatics are happy and the people who buy manuals are happy too. To each his own i guess.

[brentxzi]

I love bmw's automatic transmision for the 335. The shifts are very smooth and instant. There isn't a delay...You can still down shift to slow down just like a stick. At the same time you dont have to hit a clutch and you can put it in sport mode when you dont feel like shifting. The automatic gives you the best of both worlds.

Most sport car magazines would never consider a car without a MT. But they even said they love the new auto. At the same time a MT can be really fun to drive on a car like a 335. So theres no going wrong. It's just what you prefer.

[Beer Goggles]

You can do that with an AT. Actually I believe some pros consider it an advantage to be able to left foot brake instead of heel toe.

Oh btw, I don't understand why people complain about MT in traffic. If you know how to plan ahead, BMW MTs are very easy to drive in traffic, the clutch effort is relatively light that's when you have to use it since you can roll at very low speeds in 1st without stalling (5mph or less) and the high revving engine allows you to get to speed without having to shift, so unless you come to a complete stop, it is like driving a manual. I've never owned an AT and not sure if I will anytime soon unless it is a car mainly for the wife to drive.

I agree traffic isn't an issue. If you know how to drive, and traffic is slow you just cruise alone with the clutch out and leave some space. It's not an old clutch that took both feet to push it in. If you have an issue in traffic...then they made the less technical lazy man tranny for you.

[Beer Goggles]

I love bmw's automatic transmision for the 335. The shifts are very smooth and instant. There isn't a delay...You can still down shift to slow down just like a stick. At the same time you dont have to hit a clutch and you can put it in sport mode when you dont feel like shifting. The automatic gives you the best of both worlds.

Most sport car magazines would never consider a car without a MT. But they even said they love the new auto. At the same time a MT can be really fun to drive on a car like a 335. So theres no going wrong. It's just what you prefer.


What they say is it's a good auto, but always like MT better. If you love to drive...I can't understand not wanting that extra feeling of control.

[dls56]

What they say is it's a good auto, but always like MT better. If you love to drive...I can't understand not wanting that extra feeling of control.
It's more than a feeling of control, a manual produces more control for the driver. Dyed in the wool old school manual for me. :buttrock
An auto may be faster for some but with the right driver the manual wins.:alright

[335iDriver]

Bla bla bla, my next car will be a stick.

[yakitiyak]

MT is the way to go especially on a performance car like this..

[bubbakittie]

I have always driven manuals. But recently I was looking hard @ getting a VW R32 with the DSG tranny. I drove it countless times to make sure I would enjoy the car over the long haul. I had avoided test driving BMW's due to the price mostly, but eventually did drive a 328 and also a 335 w/ manual to cover my bases. Wow! Driving the BMWs with manuals was such a breath of fresh air. Of course they are all around better cars than the VW, but the inline 6 with a manual 6 speed is a special driving experience, and is what ultimately sold me.

Certainly the DSG tranny shifts much quicker, rev matches, has manual + auto-sport + economy modes, but it just always felt artificial, especially in comparison to the BMWs with the manual six speed.

Once you learn to double clutch and heel toe, which will take a while to perfect, you'll really appreciate driving experience the manual transmission provides, especially in the BMW.

[TeaRoy]

My 335 was my first MT, and I wouldn't have it any other way now. I had driven a buddies car a few times, but you really can't 'get it' until you drive MT for a while. I'm far from a master at only 8000 miles on my car, but I love it. Makes driving that much more fun to practice rev-matching, heel/toe braking etc. Love it.

[335io07]

Sometimes I wish I had a manual. My previous car was a stick and at times I wished I had an auto. Just enjoy what you have.

[JD 6SPEED]

This is a personal choice. But there is nothing like downshifting going into a corner then smashing the pedal sliding the rear end out. I sold an 07 Acura TL Type-S auto for an 07 Civic Si and the Si is a blast!!!

[Namnas]

Our car is a manual, and I would have been fine with the AT also but the wife wanted the 6MT (yup, a keeper!).

Put in the OEM SSK and a CDV and you'll never think twice nor regret your decision to get the 6MT.

[mistercindy]

I can't decide!!!:banghead:

I got my license in 1976. Most of my first 10 years of driving was on a manual: a '64 Volvo Wagon, a '69 Volvo Coupe, a 1980 Pontiac Sunbird, and an '84 BMW 318i (the most fun car I've ever owned). But since the late 80s I've been driving larger, AT, family sedans. But now the kids are driving and I'm downsizing to a more reasonable (size and MPG) and fun car. I've missed a MT for years. But now that I'm on the verge of buying a 328i Coupe I find myself struggling with the MT or AT choice. The question of the hour:

At 48 have I gotten so old, decrepit, and lazy that I ought to get the AT and be done with it?:(
I've driven a variety of the 328i cars: sedan in AT, sport sedan in AT, sedan in MT, coupe in AT. Yesterday I drove the coupe in AT. First of all, I love the coupe's sport suspension and 17" tires. And, as ATs go the steptronic is neat. I like the higher RPM sport option within the AT, although the manual mode isn't that big a deal and I don't think I'd ever use it. If I bought an AT I'd keep it in sport mode in the city, and whack it to regular mode on the on longer stretches. But if I get the AT, will I regret it? Will I be admitting that I need Vagisil to soothe my aches and pains?:(

Sigh..... Decisions, decisions..... I know nobody here can answer that, hence the title of this thread as a "rant." Thanks for listening.

[atlDinan3]

jpat77 - Here is a suggestion for practicing & honing your manual transmission skills.

First, find yourself a nice big hill in a safe area with no traffic around. For example, inside a quiet neighborhood or subdivision with no pass-thru traffic.

Next, get yourself to the bottom of the hill with your nose pointing UP. Go about 10% up the hill and stop. Put the car in neutral and wait for a second.

Now (and this is where the practicing begins) put the car back into gear and engage. The gravity will want to roll the car backwards, thus forcing the driver (student) to learn the clutch in order to get the car moving forward again

Once you've got the clutch engaged, go up the hill about 5-10% and stop again. Repeat the above step. Over and over.

I've found this method to work exceptionally well for training both car and motorcycle drivers. Of course there is the cost to your clutch, but a BMW clutch should be strong enough to handle it. This method also quickly helps eliminate the overclutching and encourages finding the sweetspot (also saving clutch).

This is just my suggestion - it may or may not work for you.

Good luck and have FUN with your new car!

[Corky71]

jpat77 - Here is a suggestion for practicing & honing your manual transmission skills.

First, find yourself a nice big hill in a safe area with no traffic around. For example, inside a quiet neighborhood or subdivision with no pass-thru traffic.

Next, get yourself to the bottom of the hill with your nose pointing UP. Go about 10% up the hill and stop. Put the car in neutral and wait for a second.

Now (and this is where the practicing begins) put the car back into gear and engage. The gravity will want to roll the car backwards, thus forcing the driver (student) to learn the clutch in order to get the car moving forward again

Once you've got the clutch engaged, go up the hill about 5-10% and stop again. Repeat the above step. Over and over.

I've found this method to work exceptionally well for training both car and motorcycle drivers. Of course there is the cost to your clutch, but a BMW clutch should be strong enough to handle it. This method also quickly helps eliminate the overclutching and encourages finding the sweetspot (also saving clutch).

This is just my suggestion - it may or may not work for you.

Good luck and have FUN with your new car!

This is a good suggestion usually but with hill assist it will seem like he's on level ground anyway, so no real reason to worry about rollback.

[atlDinan3]

"hill assist"? WTF is that? Do the newer models catch the car if it rolls back? Kinda takes the reality out of the MT doesnt it... :-(

These cars are getting so automated. Sometimes makes me want to go get an E30... lol

[Corky71]

"hill assist"? WTF is that? Do the newer models catch the car if it rolls back? Kinda takes the reality out of the MT doesnt it... :-(

These cars are getting so automated. Sometimes makes me want to go get an E30... lol

It does more than catch the car, it doesn't let it roll back at all. Basically when you first engage the clutch it acts as a brake for about 2 seconds. After that your on your own but even newbies should have the clutch disengaged by then.

[JWalker]

Manual all the way. Especially in the 335, so much torque, even in traffic you're not shifting nearly as much as one would expect.

[JWalker]

It does more than catch the car, it doesn't let it roll back at all. Basically when you first engage the clutch it acts as a brake for about 2 seconds. After that your on your own but even newbies should have the clutch disengaged by then.

The car has to be at a complete stop with the brakes on (and in 1st gear) for it to work...

[Corky71]

The car has to be at a complete stop with the brakes on (and in 1st gear) for it to work...

Of course you have to be at a stop, that's what the feature is all about. You do not have to have the brakes on though or be in first gear. Go to a hill and stop, put it in neutral and engage the clutch, you don't need the brakes on at this point for it to work.

[canook]

I can't decide!!!

I got my license in 1976. Most of my first 10 years of driving was on a manual: a '64 Volvo Wagon, a '69 Volvo Coupe, a 1980 Pontiac Sunbird, and an '84 BMW 318i (the most fun car I've ever owned). But since the late 80s I've been driving larger, AT, family sedans. But now the kids are driving and I'm downsizing to a more reasonable (size and MPG) and fun car. I've missed a MT for years. But now that I'm on the verge of buying a 328i Coupe I find myself struggling with the MT or AT choice. The question of the hour:

At 48 have I gotten so old, decrepit, and lazy that I ought to get the AT and be done with it?

I've driven a variety of the 328i cars: sedan in AT, sport sedan in AT, sedan in MT, coupe in AT. Yesterday I drove the coupe in AT. First of all, I love the coupe's sport suspension and 17" tires. And, as ATs go the steptronic is neat. I like the higher RPM sport option within the AT, although the manual mode isn't that big a deal and I don't think I'd ever use it. If I bought an AT I'd keep it in sport mode in the city, and whack it to regular mode on the on longer stretches. But if I get the AT, will I regret it? Will I be admitting that I need Vagisil to soothe my aches and pains?

Sigh..... Decisions, decisions..... I know nobody here can answer that, hence the title of this thread as a "rant." Thanks for listening.

haha that definitley seems like a tough choice.

another alternative would be going with the AT and getting the sport package. you get some nicer wheels, sport seats, and you get paddle shifters.

i know paddle shift isnt quite the same as driving a manual car, but maybe that can help you relive the nostalgia or driving manual in some way. paddle shift is quite fun.

[mryakan]

I can't decide!!!

I got my license in 1976. Most of my first 10 years of driving was on a manual: a '64 Volvo Wagon, a '69 Volvo Coupe, a 1980 Pontiac Sunbird, and an '84 BMW 318i (the most fun car I've ever owned). But since the late 80s I've been driving larger, AT, family sedans. But now the kids are driving and I'm downsizing to a more reasonable (size and MPG) and fun car. I've missed a MT for years. But now that I'm on the verge of buying a 328i Coupe I find myself struggling with the MT or AT choice. The question of the hour:

At 48 have I gotten so old, decrepit, and lazy that I ought to get the AT and be done with it?

I've driven a variety of the 328i cars: sedan in AT, sport sedan in AT, sedan in MT, coupe in AT. Yesterday I drove the coupe in AT. First of all, I love the coupe's sport suspension and 17" tires. And, as ATs go the steptronic is neat. I like the higher RPM sport option within the AT, although the manual mode isn't that big a deal and I don't think I'd ever use it. If I bought an AT I'd keep it in sport mode in the city, and whack it to regular mode on the on longer stretches. But if I get the AT, will I regret it? Will I be admitting that I need Vagisil to soothe my aches and pains?

Sigh..... Decisions, decisions..... I know nobody here can answer that, hence the title of this thread as a "rant." Thanks for listening.

Similar discussion as this thread so I merged them. You'll definitely get feedback on your rant, this kind of AT/MT discussion is one of the hottest reoccurring topics here.

[742]

I can't decide!!!:banghead:

I got my license in 1976. Most of my first 10 years of driving was on a manual: a '64 Volvo Wagon, a '69 Volvo Coupe, a 1980 Pontiac Sunbird, and an '84 BMW 318i (the most fun car I've ever owned). But since the late 80s I've been driving larger, AT, family sedans. But now the kids are driving and I'm downsizing to a more reasonable (size and MPG) and fun car. I've missed a MT for years. But now that I'm on the verge of buying a 328i Coupe I find myself struggling with the MT or AT choice. The question of the hour:

At 48 have I gotten so old, decrepit, and lazy that I ought to get the AT and be done with it?:(
I've driven a variety of the 328i cars: sedan in AT, sport sedan in AT, sedan in MT, coupe in AT. Yesterday I drove the coupe in AT. First of all, I love the coupe's sport suspension and 17" tires. And, as ATs go the steptronic is neat. I like the higher RPM sport option within the AT, although the manual mode isn't that big a deal and I don't think I'd ever use it. If I bought an AT I'd keep it in sport mode in the city, and whack it to regular mode on the on longer stretches. But if I get the AT, will I regret it? Will I be admitting that I need Vagisil to soothe my aches and pains?:(

Sigh..... Decisions, decisions..... I know nobody here can answer that, hence the title of this thread as a "rant." Thanks for listening.

I am 49. My wife is 53. 5 cars in the house and not one slushbox. So no, you are not too old.

And as my much older sister (3 cars, 2 motorcycles and also a slushbox free household) says -- "you are only as old as you act".

[TeaRoy]

Will I be admitting that I need Vagisil to soothe my aches and pains?:(.

:lol Funny.

Just my opinion...but the MT is pretty forgiving...my 335 was my first MT car and I picked it up in no time. I toiled with the same question (AT vs MT), but honestly, I figured I'd always regret not trying the MT - even if the AT is great.

I say get the MT...I think you'll love it. I don't think I'll ever go back to AT in my car...the wife can drive that and we'll take it road trips.

[mistercindy]

Similar discussion as this thread so I merged them. You'll definitely get feedback on your rant, this kind of AT/MT discussion is one of the hottest reoccurring topics here.
Forums are funny places. They all have their hot button issues. Examples on a couple of forums I frequent:

- On a golf forum the longest running threads are heated debates over which is better: forged or cast irons.

- On a motorcycle forum we get hot debates over the relative virtue of ABS brakes.

And here its AT vs. MT! Like I said, forums are funny animals!:D

[TeaRoy]

Forums are funny places. They all have their hot button issues. Examples on a couple of forums I frequent:

- On a golf forum the longest running threads are heated debates over which is better: forged or cast irons.

- On a motorcycle forum we get hot debates over the relative virtue of ABS brakes.

And here its AT vs. MT! Like I said, forums are funny animals!:D

So true.

[yuyue]

you will get tired everyday in cities, even it becomes a second nature....
335's auto gearbox is really good, and for people who are not professional drivers, an automatic gearbox could help more on balancing the weight and tires' grip while you braking or accelerating.
I got a 328i which has a realy worse auto gearbox compared to what 335i have.
so I got a manual, but sometimes I still regred while driving in cities like NY and .....
My next car definitly would go for a semi-manual gearbox which may like SMG II or DCT.

[335eye]

..man maybe i should have spent the extra 1250 and gotten an automatic, opinions?

Got a step since the wife drives it. Major mistake. The step is expensive and half the fun. Why would you want to use only your hand, when you can get the whole body into it.

Be happy you've got the 6MT. Keep learning. Learn to heel/toe.

[LuvMyE92]

With the 335i, the manual felt slighly mushy and delayed for my taste.

Forgive me if someone already addressed this in this thread, as I haven't read through it all yet.

Not sure what you mean by "mushy" if it is the shifter or clutch, but removing the CDV (clutch delay valve) vastly improves the performance and reaction of the clutch in these cars.

[LuvMyE92]

The car has to be at a complete stop with the brakes on (and in 1st gear) for it to work...

Or reverse.

[car62]

Those of us of a certain age remember very well the awful slow shifting slushbox automatics that made cars feel really sluggish compared to the manual. But times change and traffic congestion is a lot worse these days just about anywhere. The 6 speed automatic transmission on my 335 performs brilliantly, is faster at the dragstrip than the manual, and gets better gas mileage. No compromises there.

[EDog]

LOL this is a funny a$$ post. :) Please PM me if you decide to give up on the manual and go auto. I am in the market for a 335 and your combo sounds pretty good. I am in the bay area as well. I am being serious btw, so please do pm me if you decide to change. Thanks

[742]

Those of us of a certain age remember very well the awful slow shifting slushbox automatics that made cars feel really sluggish compared to the manual. But times change and traffic congestion is a lot worse these days just about anywhere. The 6 speed automatic transmission on my 335 performs brilliantly, is faster at the dragstrip than the manual, and gets better gas mileage. No compromises there.

But there are still compromises in cost, reliability, performance on twisty back roads and handling in slippery conditions (snow/ice).

And why do people who are interested in drag racing buy BMWs? This is something that I simply don’t understand.

But to each their own. The world would be a boring place if we were all alike.

[mryakan]

Those of us of a certain age remember very well the awful slow shifting slushbox automatics that made cars feel really sluggish compared to the manual. But times change and traffic congestion is a lot worse these days just about anywhere. The 6 speed automatic transmission on my 335 performs brilliantly, is faster at the dragstrip than the manual, and gets better gas mileage. No compromises there.
Are you saying the auto gets better mileage than a manual? if so, I'd be interested to see any evidence. :shifty

[azhrei]

Actually, in high-performance cars this isn't so unusual. Spirited driving in a stick tends to mean higher revs that in an auto, which means more fuel burned to go the same distance.

Having said that, the only evidence will be anecdotal: everyone drives their car differently. I see no problem believing that an AT can get better mileage than a MT, but it depends on driving habits.

I'm getting mid 25's with my AT and there are people here who are disappointed that their MTs are getting less than that. Is it really so hard to believe?

[mryakan]

Actually, in high-performance cars this isn't so unusual. Spirited driving in a stick tends to mean higher revs that in an auto, which means more fuel burned to go the same distance.

Having said that, the only evidence will be anecdotal: everyone drives their car differently. I see no problem believing that an AT can get better mileage than a MT, but it depends on driving habits.

I'm getting mid 25's with my AT and there are people here who are disappointed that their MTs are getting less than that. Is it really so hard to believe?
I can believe what yo are saying above, but I was referring to numbers under similar conditions/driving habit or to EPA numbers (no matter how good/bad EPA testing is, it is at least consistent). The AT has more losses in the torque converter esp. when at standstill (most ppl don't put an auto in neutral when at a stop) so under similar conditions, I still believe an MT would get better mileage, but I am open to contradictory evidence if any.

[BrianZ]

I've driven both the automatic and manuals 335's and I don't think it's a choice - the manual is hands down the best drive. Now don't get me wrong, BMW makes an exceptional automatic, and it's probably just about as fast as the 6MT, but you lose the control and the fun of a manual. You made the right choice.

[742]

Are you saying the auto gets better mileage than a manual? if so, I'd be interested to see any evidence. :shifty

The evidence is going to be the problem. It is well known that Toyota designed the Prius to the EPA mileage tests (thus “beating” the test by getting unrealistic numbers), and there is nothing to keep a manufacturer from gaming their automatic transmission logic to do the same thing. So a manual transmission will always be at a disadvantage in the EPA test scheme.

As for the real world...

[stl335i]

It really comes down to personal preference. My wife just learned to drive a manual trans a few years ago and now we don't own any auto cars (and we live in ATL, #1 on several lists for worst traffic cities). For me, driving automatic rental cars when I am out of town makes me feel like I'm in a coma. Also IMO, it is not how fast the new autos shift but how less involved I feel driving them- I will have manual trans cars as long as they continue making them ;)

+1

My buddy has his e93 with AT and I thought about getting it with my e92. I've had MT for close to 10 years and thought that maybe the AT would be a decent trade off if I could have "fun" with the paddle shifters. Due to availability at the time of my purchase, I ended up with MT and honestly feel much better that I didn't "demand" AT as one of my criteria when finding "the best 20 minutes of my morning"....

[acmaui]

Please, AT or Manual, control? Why are drag cars auto, why does a auto have more torque on launch? (please do some research before replying to this last one). If you need to stroke your own stick to be in control then go for the manual, if you know how to drive then you know it's not the trans it's the man.

[Bonds 25]

The above comment is why Ive tried to stay away from this forum....retarded

[inteloffcr]

I've driven MT's most of my 50+ years of driving. When I decided to buy a 335i I went for the A/T because of a lot of city driving. Except for not having a clutch pedal to push this A/T is no different from a manual. I can hold each gear up to its redline, upshift, downshift and it'[s a blast. The only "drawback" if one wants to call it that is the sequential function of the gearbox. But that has not stopped me from enjoying a fully manual/automatic gearbox. There are times I have thought perhaps I should have opted for the manual box but those thoughts are few and far between.

[dullgirl]

i don't care how good of a driver you think you are, but you ain't shifting faster than the new automatics.

professional drivers aren't even getting better 0-60 or 1/4 mile numbers anymore. or track times.

that's the fact, jack.

do we have any professional drivers here?


manual transmissions are doomed to extinction.

if you want to argue about this with someone, feel free to give the engineers at ferrari a phone call.

[dullgirl]

Porsche promises that its latest version of the 911 Turbo (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109294) will run from zero to 60 mph in 3.7 seconds when the driver has a six-speed manual transmission to jerk around — but only takes 3.4 seconds when there's a five-speed Tiptronic automatic aboard.



why would any sane person order a manual versus an automatic? suck your thumb if you need something to play with. :stickoutt

[Mike 01Hawk]

Uh... to break up the dull drum of my life as I commute to work in the morning.

Honestly, to Auto-X / Road Course. Straight line isn't everything (as evidenced by me wanting to sell my Firehawk)

[dullgirl]

Uh... to break up the dull drum of my life as I commute to work in the morning.

Honestly, to Auto-X / Road Course. Straight line isn't everything (as evidenced by me wanting to sell my Firehawk)


you're right, straight line isn't everything.

the new automatics are beating manuals on the track now as well.

dual clutch will be the closest you'll get to manual in a few more years on any performance vehicle.

[mryakan]

you're right, straight line isn't everything.

the new automatics are beating manuals on the track now as well.

dual clutch will be the closest you'll get to manual in a few more years on any performance vehicle.
Irrelevant, both to <edit>the original (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=953613)</edit> thread and to the point. The discussion is about preference not performance. Yes manuals may go the way of the dodo in the future, but till then, BMW still offers them on most its lineup, albeit not necessarily in the US, the North American market seems "special"! Also performance aside, the MT option still cost less for those who care about money.

[dullgirl]

Irrelevant, both to this thread and to the point. The discussion is about preference not performance. Yes manuals may go the way of the dodo in the future, but till then, BMW still offers them on most its lineup, albeit not necessarily in the US, the North American market seems "special"! Also performance aside, the MT option still cost less for those who care about money.

my point is hardly irrelevant when so many people, including people in this thread, claim that manuals are "faster" or "better", the former being objective and and the latter being subjective.

my father preferred roll up windows. faster and safer were his claims.

[mryakan]

my point is hardly irrelevant when so many people, including people in this thread, claim that manuals are "faster" or "better", the former being objective and and the latter being subjective.

my father preferred roll up windows. faster and safer were his claims.

Fixed, now you are in the right place. You do like to be provocative though huh? Just keep it civil and that's ok by me, one of your posts was crossing the line and I had it deleted, and I think you are smart enough to take the hint.

[742]

....why would any sane person order a manual versus an automatic? suck your thumb if you need something to play with. :stickoutt

1. Better handling in slippery conditions.
2. Better handling on back roads.
3. Better reliability. There is a reason all those AAMCO shops stay in business.
4. Lower cost.
5. Someone does not live in the United States and/or took real driver training.

FYI, the new Aston Marin DBS comes in….manual. So do the 911s that are not targeted at the dentist market (GT2/GT3).

Torque converters are good for drag racing, I will give the slushbox that. But anyone who thinks 0-60 times are what “performance” is about really needs some driver training.

[e92man]

i have AT and like it. the 335 MT is not that great so i chose AT

[The HACK]

Torque converters are good for drag racing, I will give the slushbox that. But anyone who thinks 0-60 times are what “performance” is about really needs some driver training.

Torque converters are good for drag racers that makes ~ 1,000hp running funny fuels with a transmission that only requires a 1-2 shift to reach 120+mph. Torque converters SUCK @SS for street cars that makes less than 500hp an only hits 64mph in 2nd. Take ANY equivalent street car that has a manual and an auto, at the drag strip in the hands of a semi-competent monkey the stick will almost always be faster.

But that's besides the point. We don't live on the drag strip. A third pedal allows you to pick and choose your gears when you want, where you want. Even with all the "Steptronic" and paddle-shift mumble-jumble, the transmission will still upshift and downshift at it's own whim when 1) engine hits redline 2) foot is planted to the floor Power is delivered to the wheel whenever your left foot is off the pedal and the car is in gear in a manual. Automatics, despite all the fancy lock-up technology, still require a higher gear ratio to achieve performance numbers that are within a small margin of the manual counter part simply due to the inefficiency of the fluid coupling.

Whenever someone argues that an automatic is as good as a manual in a street application is when you know you're talking to an uneducated boob.

[mryakan]

Torque converters are good for drag racers that makes ~ 1,000hp running funny fuels with a transmission that only requires a 1-2 shift to reach 120+mph. Torque converters SUCK @SS for street cars that makes less than 500hp an only hits 64mph in 2nd. Take ANY equivalent street car that has a manual and an auto, at the drag strip in the hands of a semi-competent monkey the stick will almost always be faster.

But that's besides the point. We don't live on the drag strip. A third pedal allows you to pick and choose your gears when you want, where you want. Even with all the "Steptronic" and paddle-shift mumble-jumble, the transmission will still upshift and downshift at it's own whim when 1) engine hits redline 2) foot is planted to the floor Power is delivered to the wheel whenever your left foot is off the pedal and the car is in gear in a manual. Automatics, despite all the fancy lock-up technology, still require a higher gear ratio to achieve performance numbers that are within a small margin of the manual counter part simply due to the inefficiency of the fluid coupling.

Whenever someone argues that an automatic is as good as a manual in a street application is when you know you're talking to an uneducated boob.
Wow, a reasonably objective post from The HACK ;). Just kidding, I want to give :thumbup:to the "select any gear" comment, I think that is the biggest advantage of a manual, and since most of us are not racing on a day to day basis, the most important performance number IMO nowadays is at the gas pump with today's gas prices, and so far I see MTs outperforming ATs in that category. Will MTs be overtaken by DCTs? Maybe, but in the near future MTs are a much cheaper alternative and will be here for quite some time IMO. Maybe by the time they disappear we will be driving cars using a joystick :shifty, so who cares about the future, compare them now.

[PeterC4]

Torque converters are good for drag racers that makes ~ 1,000hp running funny fuels with a transmission that only requires a 1-2 shift to reach 120+mph. Torque converters SUCK @SS for street cars that makes less than 500hp an only hits 64mph in 2nd. Take ANY equivalent street car that has a manual and an auto, at the drag strip in the hands of a semi-competent monkey the stick will almost always be faster.

But that's besides the point. We don't live on the drag strip. A third pedal allows you to pick and choose your gears when you want, where you want. Even with all the "Steptronic" and paddle-shift mumble-jumble, the transmission will still upshift and downshift at it's own whim when 1) engine hits redline 2) foot is planted to the floor Power is delivered to the wheel whenever your left foot is off the pedal and the car is in gear in a manual. Automatics, despite all the fancy lock-up technology, still require a higher gear ratio to achieve performance numbers that are within a small margin of the manual counter part simply due to the inefficiency of the fluid coupling.

Whenever someone argues that an automatic is as good as a manual in a street application is when you know you're talking to an uneducated boob.

Hmmm, I'd challenge this with today's automatics. One advantage to the manual is the ability to get the revs up, let go of the clutch, and step on it, not to mention they weigh less. I guess you can achieve the same effect if you stand on the brakes in an auto before you let it go. So sure, you can launch a manual fast. I'm not sure though that being able to red line a manual transmission car, only to engage the fuel shut-off is of any advanatage.

There are lots of developments in automatic transmissions like the auto developed by Getrag Ford Transmissions GmbH as a 50:50 Ford/GETRAG joint venture. The auto consists "essentially of two layshaft transmissions working in parallel, each with its own wet clutch unit. Thanks to the layout of the intermediate shafts – It does not require any complex sub-systems such as torque converters, planetary gear sets, multiple wet clutches and multiple bands – all of which significantly reduce gearbox efficiency due to increased inertia and drag torque effects." These transmissions shift very fast and I don't think you can replicate those shifts in a manual. That is, I believe the general idea behind most of the new automatic transmissions.

As to selecting a precise gear that advanatage does go to a manaul, but you can shift so fast in the new automatics, I'm not sure what advanatage the manual really has in real life driving.

As to better handling by virtue of having a manual transmission car, I think that's illusory. Keeping the revs up might make you feel like you can use engine braking to control the car, but I can't imagine why you couldn't do that while manually shifting an auto just as well. I'm also perplexed at why you think a manual is better in a street application. If anything, I think driving a manual in heavy traffic, which I have done repeatedly, is the biggest pain, a great waster of gas as you go back and forth through the low gears and a user of clutch components.

And to add to dullgirl's post, I doubt whether any driver can actually drive a manual transmission Porsche Turbo faster than an automatic even at the drag strip. As to fuel economy, the manual will be better in most applications because its lighter...but most drivers can make a far bigger difference in fuel economy from just driving conservatively in my view.

My vote is for the auto.:buttrock

[nm335]

Torque converters are good for drag racers that makes ~ 1,000hp running funny fuels with a transmission that only requires a 1-2 shift to reach 120+mph. Torque converters SUCK @SS for street cars that makes less than 500hp an only hits 64mph in 2nd. Take ANY equivalent street car that has a manual and an auto, at the drag strip in the hands of a semi-competent monkey the stick will almost always be faster.

But that's besides the point. We don't live on the drag strip. A third pedal allows you to pick and choose your gears when you want, where you want. Even with all the "Steptronic" and paddle-shift mumble-jumble, the transmission will still upshift and downshift at it's own whim when 1) engine hits redline 2) foot is planted to the floor Power is delivered to the wheel whenever your left foot is off the pedal and the car is in gear in a manual. Automatics, despite all the fancy lock-up technology, still require a higher gear ratio to achieve performance numbers that are within a small margin of the manual counter part simply due to the inefficiency of the fluid coupling.

Whenever someone argues that an automatic is as good as a manual in a street application is when you know you're talking to an uneducated boob.

Hello "The HACK":

Well Damn and Hell Hack. So many fallacies, so little time. Did you ever hear of someone called Irving Copi?

No, I did not think so.

[Beer Goggles]

MT is better.

The end.

[742]

...As to better handling by virtue of having a manual transmission car, I think that's illusory. Keeping the revs up might make you feel like you can use engine braking to control the car,...

“keeping the revs up” is not at all what it is about. It is about an accurate use of the right foot to control—accurately—the torque to the drive wheels. This in turn does many things, one of which is to influence where the car is pointed.

You turn onto a side street on a snowy day and the car goes wide. So you add a bit of power with your right foot. This is a very simple example, and if it does not make sense then go with the torque converter.

As for drag racing street cars, it is kind of like masturbation. Smashing the right foot is quick and easy satisfaction, and I have done it a few times myself. But that well done heal and toe on a back road…that is something else altogether.

[nm335]

MT is better.

The end.

Hello "Beer Goggles":

You are only 2/3 correct. X5 - manual, 340i - manual, 335i - step.

Now, following the Hack's "logic" (Ad Verecundiam, Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, Poisoning the Well, among others) we are both correct. But, to follow, I am 1/3 more correct. After all, I like all my BMWs. :)

[PeterC4]

“keeping the revs up” is not at all what it is about. It is about an accurate use of the right foot to control—accurately—the torque to the drive wheels. This in turn does many things, one of which is to influence where the car is pointed.

You turn onto a side street on a snowy day and the car goes wide. So you add a bit of power with your right foot. This is a very simple example, and if it does not make sense then go with the torque converter.

As for drag racing street cars, it is kind of like masturbation. Smashing the right foot is quick and easy satisfaction, and I have done it a few times myself. But that well done heal and toe on a back road…that is something else altogether.

Well, to get the torque up you need high revs, but in any event, why can't you use the right foot to control torque in an auto using manual mode? I'm not even sure if a heel and toe in a modern auto wouldn't be effective, although I've never tried it.

[nm335]

Well, to get the torque up you need high revs, but in any event, why can't you use the right foot to control torque in an auto using manual mode? I'm not even sure if a heel and toe in a modern auto wouldn't be effective, although I've never tried it.

Hello "PeterC4":


And again to the "heel and toe", anyone want to try that with Size 15's in anything other than a Kenworth please give me a call.

[PeterC4]

Hello "PeterC4":


And again to the "heel and toe", anyone want to try that with Size 15's in anything other than a Kenworth please give me a call.

LOL, it sure doesn't work well with size 12s let me tell you. :lol I can never shift my heel outward far enough to keep it on the gas. In any event in an auto you can just use 2 feet...same effect. AH HA!!! That's it!! Superior heel and toe control with an auto. :buttrock

[aumoore]

I wonder why BMW still outsources its Auto tranmissions from GM? Don't get me wrong I think in day to day traffic the GM Auto is the way to go but if I had a nice drive to work that did not involve a lot of traffic the Manual is the way to go. I don't care that in a turbo car the Auto is faster because it helps keep the revs up in the turbo power band. In a sports car a manual just feels right. You become part of the machine and it becomes an extension of you.

I think any experienced driver that really knows how to shift a stick can at least keep up with a auto.

Correct me if I am wrong but on a 328 the manual is faster than the auto?

[PeterC4]

I wonder why BMW still outsources its Auto tranmissions from GM? Don't get me wrong I think in day to day traffic the GM Auto is the way to go but if I had a nice drive to work that did not involve a lot of traffic the Manual is the way to go. I don't care that in a turbo car the Auto is faster because it helps keep the revs up in the turbo power band. In a sports car a manual just feels right. You become part of the machine and it becomes an extension of you.

I think any experienced driver that really knows how to shift a stick can at least keep up with a auto.

Correct me if I am wrong but on a 328 the manual is faster than the auto?

I think you're right. On paper the 328 manual is faster to 60 than the auto. But I don't know what the results would be if you held the brake down, reved the auto to say 3,000 rpm and let 'er go. The manual gives you the ability to get those revs up as you launch it and I think that's part of the difference. Mind you the manual is lighter.

[dullgirl]

torque?

on the 335, you've got all your torque at 1400 rpm's.

and as far as porsche goes - please feel free to argue with their engineers and drivers as i'm sure you all know more than they do.

just keep in mind that i'm a chick and i'll beat you around almost any track almost every time if i'm driving a 911 turbo automatic and you're driving the same car with the manual.

[PeterC4]

torque?

on the 335, you've got all your torque at 1400 rpm's.

and as far as porsche goes - please feel free to argue with their engineers and drivers as i'm sure you all know more than they do.

just keep in mind that i'm a chick and i'll beat you around almost any track almost every time if i'm driving a 911 turbo automatic and you're driving the same car with the manual.

Well, I certainly don't know more than the Porsche engineers and I don't think I'm in disagreement with you. I've been on a race track with a Porsche Turbo Cup car, (manual). It was far more than I could handle.

[Beer Goggles]

MT is better. What a poor driver can do with an AUTO is better than a MT. MT isn't about just speed its' about feel.

Also WHY would BMW tell you the MT is faster than the AUTO if it weren't true. I still can't understand that logic.

[dullgirl]

"The BMW M3 Coupé with M double-clutch transmission with Drivelogic is able to accelerate from zero to 100km/h in just 4.6 seconds, or 0.2 of a second faster than the manual six-speed version, while returning an average fuel consumption of 11.9 litres/100 km."


oooooooops

[PeterC4]

MT is better. What a poor driver can do with an AUTO is better than a MT. MT isn't about just speed its' about feel.

Also WHY would BMW tell you the MT is faster than the AUTO if it weren't true. I still can't understand that logic.

I agree that you feel the drivetrain more in a manual. As to a poor driver or good driver - that is defined by far more than being able to shift quickly using a clutch. If you're referring to how you drive on a race track, that's about braking effectively, using all of the track, getting the angles right etc. A lot of the open-wheel championships now use semi-automatics. So I'm not sure what you're referring to by saying a MT is "better". Being able to drive a manual requires certain skills that's true...and its fun. But when a lot of the new cars like Porsche's replacement for the 997 is introduced with a 7 speed dual clutch semi-automatic you certainly won't be faster in manual in that car. Its funny, Paul Tracy felt he was at a disadvantage using paddle shifters for the first time, saying he couldn't get used to the timing. Go figure.

[mryakan]

"The BMW M3 Coupé with M double-clutch transmission with Drivelogic is able to accelerate from zero to 100km/h in just 4.6 seconds, or 0.2 of a second faster than the manual six-speed version, while returning an average fuel consumption of 11.9 litres/100 km."
oooooooops


Sorry to burst your bubble sister, but the DCT is not an automatic, I mean right there in the name is the term `clutch` but maybe that slipped your mind. An AT (aka slush box) is defined by a torque converter (a turbine with fluid spinning), which typically introduces more losses and causes lower fuel economy esp. at standstill in Drive. Is it beter or worse than an AT, argue you hearts on that, to me it is about personal preference not performance, who cares about 0.2-0.4 sec in day to day driving.

[PeterC4]

mryaken brings up a good point, but I disagree on one issue. The DCT is an automatic. The current ATs in the non M versions all have torque converters which are not the same as the advanced semi-automatics found in the M cars.

The newer dual clutch transmissions are referred to as semi-automatics which are in the M cars now. There is no foot pedal clutch in a DCT but there are actually 2 clutches that are controlled electronically inside the transmission. In a DCT, the clutches operate independently. One clutch controls the odd gears (first, third, fifth), the other controls the even gears (second, fourth and sixth). Using this arrangement, gears can be changed without interrupting the power flow from the engine to the transmission. Therein lies the big advantage of an DCT. In a manual, when you depress the clutch, you disengage the transmission from the engine.

You can drive a semi-automatic in "D" and just let it do its thing, or you can shift it manually, but there is no foot pedal clutch. I would argue that it is an "automatic" because the computer will do the shifting for you.

As to the AT found in the non M 3 series - here it is from BMW - "The new six-speed Steptronic automatic uses an innovative torque converter and enhanced management software to improve shifting responsiveness. The response time of the automatic transmission on the new BMW 3 Series Coupe is down by approximately 40 per cent compared with a conventional automatic transmission."

[dullgirl]

mryaken brings up a good point, but I disagree on one issue. The DCT is an automatic. The current ATs in the non M versions all have torque converters which are not the same as the advanced semi-automatics found in the M cars.

The newer dual clutch transmissions are referred to as semi-automatics which are in the M cars now. There is no foot pedal clutch in a DCT but there are actually 2 clutches that are controlled electronically inside the transmission. In a DCT, the clutches operate independently. One clutch controls the odd gears (first, third, fifth), the other controls the even gears (second, fourth and sixth). Using this arrangement, gears can be changed without interrupting the power flow from the engine to the transmission. Therein lies the big advantage of an DCT. In a manual, when you depress the clutch, you disengage the transmission from the engine.

You can drive a semi-automatic in "D" and just let it do its thing, or you can shift it manually, but there is no foot pedal clutch. I would argue that it is an "automatic" because the computer will do the shifting for you.

As to the AT found in the non M 3 series - here it is from BMW - "The new six-speed Steptronic automatic uses an innovative torque converter and enhanced management software to improve shifting responsiveness. The response time of the automatic transmission on the new BMW 3 Series Coupe is down by approximately 40 per cent compared with a conventional automatic transmission."


thank you for supporting my argument and saving me the keystrokes.

[Briar]

YES, move on!

[mryakan]

Everyone said their peace, so now hear this (and this is to everyone):

Bringing DCT into this discussion in this thread is completely misleading (read the title again if you missed it), since it is not even offered on the non M cars so far. When it is, I can update the title to AT vs MT vs DCT. For now, keep your responses focused on the topic of the AT vs MT offered on the current e9x, not Ms and not Porsche, there are other places for those discussions but not here since this is an e9x forum. The last thing we want is this derailing into a Porsche vs BMW or a future tech bash, spare me the extra work of deleting posts.

[Paperbill]

I've owned about 20 cars over the past 24 years, and most have been manuals. It just depends on the car. My 335i just happens to be an Auto Step, and I love it. With the 335i, the manual felt slighly mushy and delayed for my taste. Plus the auto is just faster than the manual for this model. Therefore, I prefer the Auto. Still, manual or Step, you can't go wrong with this car.


The auto is faster? not sure where you got that from, I have the manual and drove the auto for a week while mine was in the shop. IMHO the maunual is faster and much more fun to drive. I could mot wait to get my car back=

[chapmandb]

hey everyone
so i became a proud new owner of a 2008 335i 6MT Space Grey Metallic coupe (black dakota leather, Navigation, Ipod integration, bluetooth, Sport, etc) earlier this week.

This is my first Manual transmission car and before I picked it up from the dealer on Wednesday, I spent two days learning manual in my friend's car. I'm still learning and it is fun on the open road for sure.
Since im new to MT, it's also a little anxiety provoking, and somewhat stressful in traffic. I know it will become second nature soon, but I can see this getting annoying even in slow traffic, even when ive mastered it.

I've always wanted a manual because people I know say how it really helps you feel in control and the performance benefits outweigh automatic.
However after reading this article here, does it really make any kind of difference at all, especially in terms of performance?

http://www.europeancarweb.com/firstlook/0611_ec_2007_BMW_335i/index.html

here is the main quote from the article
"You would think the automatic tranny would be a performance deprivation from the manual, but this isn't so. With BMW's new innovative torque converter and hydraulic system, shifting times are an astonishing one-tenth of a second and downshifts actually skip gears with rev-matching for a truly high-performance experience. I actually think that, save for clutch slippage off the line in a drag race, the manual has no noticeable advantage over the automatic from a performance standpoint. It will be interesting to see what a chassis dyno reveals"

man maybe i should have spent the extra 1250 and gotten an automatic,
opinions?
Automatic (even w the sport paddles) makes you feel disconnected from the car and takes the challenge away of hitting the right gear at the right time. If you just want to floor it and go as fast as possible without being "a part" of the experience then the 335i is the best automatic tranny I've ever driven (maybe a tie with the Porsche Boxster). The MT was the right choice, in my opinion, and the one I'm considering.