Weird Noises and issues... advice please

[uk525td]

Ok, so Sunday i drive over to my girlfriends, nice 25 degree weather car drives absolutely fine. park up outside hers and go in for 20 minutes.
We go back out to the car, start it up and it doesnt sound right at all........ nasty grumbling noise..... i stop the car..... and try again... same grumbling noise, popping hte bonnet and standing at the right hand side it sounds like its coming directly from the centre of the engine, like between 3 and 4............balls....
Ok so im parked on a hill facing upwards, and i know my oil is a little low, so i figure ill get a little more oil, jsut incase... throw it in... still no difference...
bit stressed now and walk away for a few hours.
Im thinking all the time whats going on, firstly id put some injector cleaner in hte day before.... could be related...also hot day and above stock boost im worried about meltage.. but that doesnt really happen on diesels....
anyway, i come out about 3 hours later and say lets just take a gentle drive.
sure enough 10 seconds in the noise is gone!!!! yay
however, 45 seconds later my instruments turn into a disco..... battery light is pulsing... power steering has gone heavy.... ok im thinking hte good old belt tensioner got stuck (happened before) so i get a bar and rock the tensioner around and it is fine.
Start the car up and the belt is moving fine yet i have a battery light and lack of power steering?!?!?!?! Also my alternator is 18 months old and the battery is 6 months old so im hoping that its neither of them.
So my next thought is the servotronic unti playing up? i dont know how it works but i figure it requires power since theres a fuse, so pull the fuse.... no difference...
Ok time to get my car back to my girlfriends nad use her car..
i turn the car with next to no sterring assist (very difficult) and get within 500 yards of her house when i hear a massive vibration (like a tire rubbing against something) and i get worried... hazzard lights on and crawl to park...
the vibration was random and intermittent..... definate rubbing....
Looking under the car there is no sign of rubbing.
looking at the accesory belt again i can see the side of the belt neares the engine has a 1mm wide score along it........i try and turn the alternator by hand, no problem, try the power steering pump and its stiff but then again it is a pump and its hardly difficult to turn. I check my PS FLuid and it is very low, but you can see lots of fluid in the reservoir, just not on the dipstick....
So... today ill go round nad gingerly drive the car into work, rip the old accesory belt off and put a new one on... but i see that as the symptom not the cause...
Also ill try and check hte main engine pullley as this was replaced before christmas....
AS i see it something is casuing hte belt to jam, possibly a damaged PS pump or something else ot be discovered when i investigate.

Any ideas guys?

[Binjammin]

Fill the power steering.

/thread.

[uk525td]

hmm, if only it were that easy
tensioner and belt removed
i investigated the main crank pulley
the pulley itself spins freely, inner and outer bit (remember i had this bit replaced).
so the pulley and the inner bit which had originally seperated are still well connected... but the centre bolt in the middle which goes into the crank is stationary... and finger loose!!!!!!!!!!!
so, i need to remove all of the pulley including the centre, which i believe drives the chains and look for a missing/failed woodruff key!!! investigating realoem now

[Binjammin]

Dude... what? Are you seriously saying that while your engine is running the accessories aren't turning?

[uk525td]

Item 1,2 and 3 are all driving each other when i spin hte pulley
Item 5 is stationary and loose
I assume ive lost item 8 when the bolt came free
so looking at it if i remove the crank bolt i can safely pull the pulley but i need to be careful item 7 stays put, which i assume goes through the oil seal.. if that moves i lose oil and potentially disturb thge chain drive behind.... is this right?????

[uk525td]

the accesories were turning while iexamined it by hte side of hte road.. but when driving it was intermittent.....
how the hell am i going to remove the pulley without disturbing item 7?????? bugger....

[uk525td]

erm... what does item 5 and 6 hold on??? just item 7 and 9?
presumably pulley 1 bolts right up to item 7 and therefore cannot spin
so item 7 must be heald on by the bolt...
and item 7 is keyed to the crank???
so how the hell can it spin yet my timing chain apparently has stayed synched up??

[uk525td]

Guys, i really need some input from anyone experienced with the front of these engines, im not up for doing any more htna i have without some advice.
how is item 7 held in relation to the crank? is it keyed or just held in place by the ff'ing great bolt at the front?

[Binjammin]

Sorry man, but we don't get the TD here, I've got no firsthand experience with it. If the car is running, I'd say you don't have to worry about the timing chain, I believe there are two keys for the crank, one for the timing chain and one for the accessory pulleys.

[uk525td]

its basically an m50 engine for all intents and purposes, so there is a second key ofr item number 7? that key should be outside the oil seal or inside? obviously if its inside im screwed kinda, outside not so bad.
So if the key is outside the seal and ive lost it i will need to remove item 7 completely and reassemble, but i shouldnt lose oil as the seal should be way above oil levle?

[uk525td]

phoned the local bmw dealer and got him to check the layout on their computer
he couldnt say for sure but hes off the opinion that part number 7 is just held in location by the big crank bolt.....
ill tighten the bolt tomorrow then remove the pulley from the front and check out hte piece behind.

[5mall5nail5]

Let me clarify for you...

#5 Crank bolt, threads into the crank. #6 is on #5 as a "washer" type thing. #6 then holds #7 in the right depth which buts up against #9. #9 is the timing chain the goes from the crankshaft to the exhaust camshaft. The way #1 gets mounted to the whole ordeal is via the #8 key which lines the crankshaft pulley so it can only go on one way, and then is held on by 6 bolts. Those bolts go through #2 (I don't have a #2 btw), through #3, through #1 and into #7.

#10 is a woodruff key, it is slid into the crankshaft and keeps #9 and #7 locked in rotation to the crankshaft.

SO - if #5 is loose that is bad. That is supposed to be like 275 ft lb tight. Can you clarify what is and is not moving?

[uk525td]

at the moment i have left it like this:
main pulley can be roatated easily by hand, it also can be wobbled slightly.
the outer and inner of the pulley move together.
the crank will not spin when the pulley is turned by hand.
the main crank bolt can be turned a few degrees by hand each way so therefore lose
thanks :)

[uk525td]

ok so if 5 is bad and theres approximately 1 mm of movement backward and forward theat could have been enough to pull part 7 of f its key? yet (luckily) 9 has stayed on the key (as my engine is still alive)
so i need to pull 7 completely to see whats going on in side hte timing covere? and hope the key hasnt disappeared?!?!?!
1 appears to be tightly bolted to 7 from what i can tell.....

[5mall5nail5]

If #1 is bolted to #7, and #1 isn't spinning with the crank shaft... you have trouble!

The key for #9 is probably also used by #7. It may have partly broken. Ordinarily your car would not run since #1 on a gasoline engine is a toothed wheel and is how we set our spark timing. But since you have the diesel with glow plugs the damned engine will run without that pulley moving which is bizarre and took me a minute to wrap my head around. Remove #3 and #1 - they come over #5 you shouldnt have to touch #5 to do this. Then look at #5 and see how it looks in #7. If you can take #5 out by hand, thats bad. That #5 should never ever come loose. Then looking at it, #8 is probably still attached to #7 (pressed in) since you say #1 is bolted. That means... somehow... #7 is off its keying (bad... I hope the crank is not damaged its not intended to spin there) and #9 is still on its keying... hopefully. If #9 falls off... or fell off... or even moved a bit... you have a very great chance of bending valves in the head.

Get back with the information I requested

[uk525td]

Thankyou. Unfortunately my car is at work and its the end of the day now. Ill look early tomorrow. I'm on my blackberry atm so any typos are its daily lol

[uk525td]

oh
the sprocket MUST still be keyed to the crank as my fuelling (fuel pump is on timing chain i think) and cam timing would be off, i believe its +20:1 compression so id have no engine left if it werent.
Ill investigate tomorrow by pulling hte pulley and looking inside.
guess i should pick up a crank oil seal while im at it?

[5mall5nail5]

I was just looking on Realoem at your motor and I concede man I am not qualified to talk about that motor very much. It looks like there is a weird guide/bearing thing on the front of the timing cover and such - if you could give us pics we could help, but I only have a vague idea of whats going on with that engine. if it were an m50 i'd have you fixed in no time but damn that thing is strangely confusing.

[uk525td]

ah ok i assumed the it was near identical to an M50
im hoping my timing cover can stay where it is... i have no idea if i have the tools or the ability to do a timing chain, which i may as well do if im in there already.....
praying that the hub thing has just slipped forward and not damaged the crank or dropped the woodruff key.....

[Binjammin]

Seriously man, pics would be an immense help. Video would be good too.

[uk525td]

yer im as blind as you at the moment, all i can see is the bloody huge ($600) harmonic dampener, (should have bought an underdrive set for a 5th of the price) the centre bolt and the timing cover, nothing else until i drop the dampener first thing in the morning.
im pretty sure if the sprocket is on the crank and the key, the chain will not be able to come off it or let the sprocket move axially enough to lose the key.
So my plan is pulley off and leave the hub thing where it is...
hmm actually i may be better to just remove the centre bolt and pull the hub all the way....

[uk525td]

Ok ive just been out for a quick play before work, put a 22mm on hte crank bolt and done it up a quarter of a turn which is fairly tight.
this stopped the spin on the pulley and the axial movement
i still plan to undo the 6 pulley retaining bolts and examine the hub behind, got to take the fan out of the way realistically to get some space

[zubbie]

This is like trying to thread a serger with your eyes closed.

[uk525td]

exactly, i dont know really how it was before, but i should take it apart to investigate.....
i also should take the opportunity to replace seals and do a timing chain, but my funds do not allow me to attempt that, especially since i do not have any specialist tools

[uk525td]

sheered woodruff key!!!
got half of it in the hub part, im still trying to see where the other half is in the crank to clean it out....

[5mall5nail5]

Yep - what I figured.

Thats bad that means your crank bolt probably backed out - do you rev this thing much? Maybe the vibrations of the diesel work it loose. Hrm.

[uk525td]

erm yer i do drive it hard from time to time, still it should have near 300lb/ft of torque on the bolt, that dont go easily. im about to go out and try to get hte key remnants out and get through to the local bmw stealer...
anyone care to guess a cost for a woodruff key and oil seal???

[5mall5nail5]

Woodruff key is like... pennies. I actually have one or two laying around but I am in the US. Oil seal is prob between $12 - 25 depending.

REPLACE THE CRANK BOLT

Its a torque to yield (TTY) bolt and if it backed out once, it'll do it again.

[uk525td]

roughly £12 for hte two items
wouldnt be in till thursday for the key so im going to try rs etc as they sell things like that.

[uk525td]

ah ok i didnt price hte bolt up, ill try them again in a bit :) thanks

[uk525td]

bolt ordered as well for an extra £3 it is definately worth it... havent got a torque qrench handy but if i put a 2 ft breaker bar on it and put my 175 lb self on it it should be near enough..... lol

[5mall5nail5]

Sounds good - start thinking of ways you're going to keep the crankshaft from turning. There is a tool that I just ordered that goes over the front of the crankshaft and hits the frame rail or street in order to keep the crank from turning, but I don't know if you can order it being in the UK

[uk525td]

hmm i got some photos now
now i got an oil seal on order i ripped hte old one out and found the broken key....
unfortunately it is the same key as shared by the timing sprocket.... i need to remove and refit the key without disturbing hte timing!!! is this possible like this??
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/alanthecelt/broken%20key/IMG00192.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/alanthecelt/broken%20key/IMG00201.jpg
remainder of the key is in bottom left of the crank photo, luckily the sprocket half didnt shear!!! this must have happened because the bolt loosened and allowed the key to carry the load.

[5mall5nail5]

Damn I do really hope the timing sprocket some how stayed timed with a broken key.

Wait...dude... I see the sprocket in there.... wheres the chain?

[uk525td]

The photo is as you look at the crank. The chain is running around the bottom left of the photo and up to the right. It is obscured by the timing cover. I can see the sprocket is still seated over its half of the key so the cam and fuel pump is still synched up thank god! My worry is the key will not be removable without pulling the sprocket forwards, and therefor having to remove the chain. So I'm now preparing for a timing chain and tensioner change. Is this at all possible without the specialist tools? Reckon I can scoop the key out and replace with the sprocket in place? This is starting to get expensive but not as expensive as it could have been!

[5mall5nail5]

Oh dear oh dear

This is where it gets crazy. I dont know much about the diesel but if this were a gasoline car I'd have you set the crank to TDC and then lock the cams at tdc and take off the sprockets on the cam shafts up top. That way if you lock the crank at tdc, the cams are at tdc and nothing bad should happen. If the crank moves without the cams moving, chances are the motor will be out of time.

The woodruff key is interesting. You may beable to get it out still I am not sure - its a semicircle with a flat edge. so really, it looks like its a square that presses into the crank but its not - its rounded. Maybe you can pull it out.

[uk525td]

Hmm I realistically speaking the minimum u will probably have to do is take the timing cover off to make the area acessable. Is it possible to turn the engine to tdc lock the cam and unbolt the cam sprocket? With care I would then be able to lower the chain enough to allow me to slip the crank sprocket off? In theory the only part that should try and rotate on its own is the cam?

[Binjammin]

Oh dear oh dear

This is where it gets crazy. I dont know much about the diesel but if this were a gasoline car I'd have you set the crank to TDC and then lock the cams at tdc and take off the sprockets on the cam shafts up top. That way if you lock the crank at tdc, the cams are at tdc and nothing bad should happen. If the crank moves without the cams moving, chances are the motor will be out of time.

The woodruff key is interesting. You may beable to get it out still I am not sure - its a semicircle with a flat edge. so really, it looks like its a square that presses into the crank but its not - its rounded. Maybe you can pull it out.


Amen for locking the cams and not losing the time in the motor. I don't think you'll be able to sneak the key out without removing the timing chain, and honestly, it's probably not worth it.

What I mean is, for all the time and effort you'll spend and end up trying to get it out, you'll probably in the end have to take the chain off. This means pulling the front covers and locking the cams. This is good, because it's a good excuse to put all new gaskets in the front of the engine, that ought to eliminate a LOT of oil leaks, and it's very easy to do.

[Binjammin]

Hmm I realistically speaking the minimum u will probably have to do is take the timing cover off to make the area acessable. Is it possible to turn the engine to tdc lock the cam and unbolt the cam sprocket? With care I would then be able to lower the chain enough to allow me to slip the crank sprocket off? In theory the only part that should try and rotate on its own is the cam?

I don't think you'd need to remove the cam sprocket. I'd be willing to bet you'll be able to remove the timing chain tensioner (once the cam is locked) and that will give you enough slack to slip the chain off the lower sprocket.

[uk525td]

im all for that, its leaky enough as it is!!!
but is it possible to lock everything up safely without buying the specific retaining tools? im searching the forum atm for the answer!

[uk525td]

I don't think you'd need to remove the cam sprocket. I'd be willing to bet you'll be able to remove the timing chain tensioner (once the cam is locked) and that will give you enough slack to slip the chain off the lower sprocket.
looking around at the tools there is a tensioner preload tool!??!?so will it be possible to lock the cam with a bolt or something.... then remove the tensioner, slip the sprocket off then get it all back together hunky dory? bearing in mind the chain goes around the fuel pump too :( i guess being a chain it will only go back on one way...
or should i just bite the bullet, order a chain and tensioner kit and drop it into the local garage .... im not scared of engine work (just suspension work) so im happy to do it if it is physically possible

[5mall5nail5]

None of us know enough about the diesel to be able to tell you for sure.

Here is how I lock the camshafts on my car:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Progress/cams2.jpg


You can see at the back part of the head theres a silver block - that block has to perfect square cuts in it. The cam ends have squared ends and when all is set to TDC, they lock parallel and cannot move.

DO NOT MOVE THE CAMS OR CRANK UNLESS THEY ARE LINKED TOGETHER. If you move the cams you will push the valves into the piston. If you move the crank you will push the piston into the valves. Make sure everything is TDC and locked!

[uk525td]

hmm i see, any idea how it works on single cam m50's? (if there is a such a beast)
so if i can lock the cam and remove the tensioner, and i dont allow the fuel pump side of hte chain to move i should be able to do it!!!
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HA72&mospid=47378&btnr=11_1454&hg=11&fg=25
shows the chain run on the diesel
so first thing first
timing covers off,
work out how the cam is locked, if there is no method on the front of the cam then ill take the rocker cover off
this is all assuming i cannot safely remove the key in situe.
oh bugger i jsut realsie the rocker cover is held on by inverted torx screws...... that mental cash register is ticking up quickly!!

[5mall5nail5]

Single...cam M50?.... that doesnt exist bro hehe its a diesel thing!

You can prob lock the single cam square to the head like the DOHC, sans the D part.

[uk525td]

Hehe I guess I'm doing exploratory surgery for the forum then! I guess I can clean all the front of the engine up while I'm at it and help narrow down my alight oil leak! I'm thinking I won't have my car for the weekend now.

[Binjammin]

None of us know enough about the diesel to be able to tell you for sure.

Here is how I lock the camshafts on my car:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Progress/cams2.jpg


You can see at the back part of the head theres a silver block - that block has to perfect square cuts in it. The cam ends have squared ends and when all is set to TDC, they lock parallel and cannot move.

DO NOT MOVE THE CAMS OR CRANK UNLESS THEY ARE LINKED TOGETHER. If you move the cams you will push the valves into the piston. If you move the crank you will push the piston into the valves. Make sure everything is TDC and locked!

Let me guess, the head is only on in that pic for mani fitment? I can't see any other reason to not have the chains on...

[5mall5nail5]

Let me guess, the head is only on in that pic for mani fitment? I can't see any other reason to not have the chains on...

No that was the head installed real deal. The primary chain is down in the timing cover. That pic was taken just after installing the cam shafts. I use the cam lock plate to install the camshafts so they don't wander and bend the valves as the cam is depressed into the chamber.

[uk525td]

Iv just been out to look at thge timing case
to take the lower case off it looks like i need to remove the upper case.... and to remove the upper case it looks like i need to remove the rocker cover.....
ideally i want to take the lower case off only, but it thoughtfully has a stud which locates into the upper case....
if i take the vacuum pump off the end of the cam, i would have access to a large slot in hte cam sprocket, which it looks like i could improvise some sort of holding method and clamp it into position...
also to remove the lower casing it looks like both the water pump and oil pump needs disturbing....

[uk525td]

rocker cover loosened
alternator removed
vacuum pump removed
not sure if ps needs removing
or the belt tensioner (think it does)
water pump looks like it may not need disturbing....

[5mall5nail5]

Less talk, more do.

[uk525td]

yer unforutnately i can only do it prior to work or at lunch
had a bit of stumble though
i stopped to order up the additional gaskets and speaking to the parts guy he said i should talk to somone in technical.....
i spoke to the guy in technical, he said after i remove the belt tensioner i would need a special tool which acceses the chain tensioner inside to take the tension off....
or i had to remove the head to access it from above!!!!
so i phoned my friendly local garage who have done the pulley job prior.... he was a little unsure about the process but said they had 10. hours booked for a timing chain job on that!!!! .........£490!!!!!! thats 1000 times the price of the broken part!!!!!
he did say something happy though, they are dropping an MOT car off on friday, the mechanic will come into my work and give it a once over, they suggested they may be able to weld something on to the broken key and pull it out... then drive the new one in place......
so the job is on hold till then..... :)

[Binjammin]

Wait... you had a shop remove the pulley recently? I'd go in there and raise holy hell about them not tightening the pulley enough.

[uk525td]

the shp would not have had to undoe the centre bolt, just the outer bolts, they are being very helpful either way so its all good

[uk525td]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/alanthecelt/broken%20key/IMG00208.jpg

Thats the dam £0.42 piece which has given me all the grief grr
still waiting for hte friendly local mech to take a quick look and offer a cheap suggestion (if htere is one)

[5mall5nail5]

Yep thats the piece

[uk525td]

Ok, the local mech had a look today thank god :)
he is fairly confident he can lock all the sprockets up, arc weld onto the broken key and yank it out, then drive a new one back in :)
rough estimate is £80 including radiator out and coolant refill + £30 to have the car collected , fingers crossed he can do it :)
so tomorrow lunch ill be putting the extra bits back that dont need to be removed :)

[uk525td]

well, she got collected yesterday lunch time, they should have started earlier today... it needs to be in for 24 hours to refill the coolant properly. reckoned it would be easier ot remove the radiator to torque the crank up properly. hopefully the job goes smoothly and they remove and refit the broken key the cheap way!!!

[uk525td]

yay
they just called me
very confused :)
they were struggling to work out where all the intercooler pipes went that were in the boot of my car :) these are the pipes i salvaged for the intercooler i have under my desk :P
should be done in a few hours yay

[uk525td]

DONE
picking her up in a minute!!
£185
replaced the belt too, and the oil filter i asked the mto fit when they did an oil change was wrong..... grrr.......
a lot cheaper than taking the timing cover off ;)

[5mall5nail5]

Hm sounds like you got lucky!

[uk525td]

yer the cost was high due to:
18.50 for a belt
16.50 for a filter!!


doesnt seem to go so well..... hmm wonder if the dme learns in anyway....