Turner is selling the Euro M3 Headers and Cats

[Kevlar]

<img src="http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/Intake_Exhaust/exhaust_e46m3_euroheader_cat_lg.jpg">

<a href="http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=11627830658/659">Turner Product Page</a>

Turner is selling the package for $3080.

[///MDriver]

The problem is that this causes a loss of 10 HP and almost 20 lb/ft torque. This is why the Euro M3 is rated at 343hp and the USA model at 333hp.

I thought this was due to the different BHP and HP readings?

[mpowerme]

It's not 10HP, I can't believe a 'tuner' like TMS doesn't know the difference between DIN and SAE!

[BAVARIAN323i]

:

[MPILOT]

The 343 HP (DIN) Euro M3 is 338 HP (SAE) and 269 lb-ft. The difference between the US, 333 HP, and the Euro is 5 HP more at 7,900 RPM, 7 lb-ft at 4,900 RPM and around 20 lb-ft more between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM.

So at the peak its only 5 HP gain, but at the lower RPMs the car would be pulling stronger with a wider torque curve.

[Ferris]

Having done that even before Turner had the concept of switching

I'll say it makes a difference. Unless the S54 is underrated I put down 294 SAE Corrected 297 STD to the wheels at 7100 RPM. if the speed limiter didn't kick in I'm sure I'd have hit at least 300 at 7600(Mz3 redline). Trust me the US headers/cat sucks more then you think.

[M3onTwomps]

They have headers and cats as well? Think these are better than Euro's? Add in their resonator too. Anyone have experience with these? Not much more expensive than the Euro's.

[M3Fella]

So, would this pass emissions in the US? If not, how do you get around that?

[MPILOT]

The Euro items pass according to TMS, but I'm not sure about the SS.

I ordered the SS, we'll see when it gets here.

[BMWguy206]

Does the SS version even come with Cats?

[Kevlar]

According to TMS the Euro version should pass emissions... as long as the car is warm and at operating temperature. The US cars get the cats moved closer to the engine because when the cats are closer to the engine they get hot faster... If the cat is not hot, it doesn't work...

I don't think the SS version comes with cats...

[MPILOT]

You can get the SS free flowing metallic cats, about twice more flow than Euro OEM cat.

Costs the same as the Euro piece ($1,600) with better performance. MK has the same spec as SS and they claim 8 HP with their CAT Vs Euro CATS.

[M3onTwomps]

Are you getting the SS center section without resonator? What exactly would this do to performance and sound? And would it still be able to pass emissions?

[MPILOT]

I have the MK-Motorsport muffler, SS X-pipe (rear resonator by-pass).

I'm installing the SS headers to the OEM US front pipe, which has a resonator on the left side and a straight pipe on the right side feeding into the x-pipe.

I might then add the SS metallic cats, this is 100 cpi.

[BMWguy206]

MPILOT,

That resonator is actually a third cat to help reduce the NOx emissisons. You're reffering to that round thing after the main cats correct?

I would find out how reliable the SS cats are. From what I always heard, aftermarket cats on the E36 M3s fall apart internally prematurely than BMW.

[TurnerMS]

Originally posted by MPILOT
The 343 HP (DIN) Euro M3 is 338 HP (SAE) and 269 lb-ft. The difference between the US, 333 HP, and the Euro is 5 HP more at 7,900 RPM, 7 lb-ft at 4,900 RPM and around 20 lb-ft more between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM.

So at the peak its only 5 HP gain, but at the lower RPMs the car would be pulling stronger with a wider torque curve.

EXACTLY.

TMS Staff

[mpowerme]

Originally posted by dugmar
Quote:
Originally posted by MPILOT
The 343 HP (DIN) Euro M3 is 338 HP (SAE) and 269 lb-ft. The difference between the US, 333 HP, and the Euro is 5 HP more at 7,900 RPM, 7 lb-ft at 4,900 RPM and around 20 lb-ft more between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM.

So at the peak its only 5 HP gain, but at the lower RPMs the car would be pulling stronger with a wider torque curve.


EXACTLY.

TMS Staff

So why does the TMS website say it gives a 10HP gain?

[TurnerMS]

Originally posted by mpowerme
So why does the TMS website say it gives a 10HP gain?

Because we got a 10 HP gain. That is why.

Anyone that has dealt with TMS knows we are not about posting false claims. We don't sell things that way. Therefore, your "nono" smiley is inappropriate.


Bottom line, it works and makes the most noticeable gain of any mod we have done to date, hands down. Not only on our car, but customer's as well. + feedback has been enormous. Dyno tested and proven to match our claims. And actually, we are currently sold out.

TMS Staff

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by dugmar
Because we got a 10 HP gain. That is why.

TMS Staff

Post some dyno charts... let's see the power differences of the Euro exhaust compared to stock...

[TurnerMS]

Dyno charts are going to be posted to the site soon. The problem is that Dynapack's charts print very thin lines, so thin that they do not scan. So I have to trace them to show up, then when I do that people acuse us of fudging the charts.

Until we get new software from Dynapack, we are in a holding pattern.

Doug
TMS

PS: I can't do a print screen, or save charts as JPG's, etc. Dynapack comes with a computer that has an operating system on it and their software, nothing else. The only thing that runs on that computer is their software and the clock.

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by dugmar
Dyno charts are going to be posted to the site soon. The problem is that Dynapack's charts print very thin lines, so thin that they do not scan. So I have to trace them to show up, then when I do that people acuse us of fudging the charts.

Ok... when you get the software in, I'm sure everybody here would be very interested in seeing the dyno charts. Also... when you post the dyno charts, can you post the data tables (the actual numbers) as well?

[TurnerMS]

We will probably post the chart only, not the raw data, at least not on the site.

I suppose it could be emailed on request.

Doug
TMS

[jblack]

OK.....we can wait on the Dyno....but, in the mean time, can you explain the 10 HP difference? BMW has only 2 differences in the drive-train between the US and Euro cars - the placement of the cats in relation to the engine, and the software in the ECU. If BMW can only squeeze 5 HP out of the cat placement, how can Turner, using the exact same parts, supplied by BMW, get 10 HP, without changing the ECU software? By this theory, the European M3 owners can get an extra 5 HP (SAE) out of their M3's by using the North American software....is this correct? I know the other 5 HP is just the translation from DIN to SAE HP..... that is just math, not a performance increase.

Just trying to understand...... Can you help me, Doug?

Thanks!

[Ferris]

Originally posted by jblack
OK.....we can wait on the Dyno....but, in the mean time, can you explain the 10 HP difference? BMW has only 2 differences in the drive-train between the US and Euro cars - the placement of the cats in relation to the engine, and the software in the ECU. If BMW can only squeeze 5 HP out of the cat placement, how can Turner, using the exact same parts, supplied by BMW, get 10 HP, without changing the ECU software? By this theory, the European M3 owners can get an extra 5 HP (SAE) out of their M3's by using the North American software....is this correct? I know the other 5 HP is just the translation from DIN to SAE HP..... that is just math, not a performance increase.

Just trying to understand...... Can you help me, Doug?

Thanks!

Ok I dynoed the mz3 with this setup and got ~10 more corrected HP then the highest N/A s54 mz3. So the claim seems right on, I think what you need to remember is BMW takes an average HP rating, checks where it sits in the marketing platform and publishes that number. Perhaps the US is slightly more aggressive to help with compensate for the cat placement , but all in all were fighting over a small number that in my opinion has been dyno proven.

[mmmpowr]

Originally posted by jblack
OK.....we can wait on the Dyno....but, in the mean time, can you explain the 10 HP difference? BMW has only 2 differences in the drive-train between the US and Euro cars - the placement of the cats in relation to the engine, and the software in the ECU. If BMW can only squeeze 5 HP out of the cat placement, how can Turner, using the exact same parts, supplied by BMW, get 10 HP, without changing the ECU software? By this theory, the European M3 owners can get an extra 5 HP (SAE) out of their M3's by using the North American software....is this correct? I know the other 5 HP is just the translation from DIN to SAE HP..... that is just math, not a performance increase.

Just trying to understand...... Can you help me, Doug?

Thanks!

MPilot's post explained it above. True, there is only a 5hp gain, but that is peak at 7900rpm. What Turner was listing is the maximum gain, which occured at 3000rpm. Which means that you get much more lower end grunt (hp and Tq) with the euro header and cat setup.