Turner Motorsport rear subframe kit?

[4G63T]

I know the general consensus seems to be to use Randy's kit, but has anyone had good experiences with Turner's kit? With my recent 2000 MR purchase, and even though the subframe is currently ok, I called a local guy that builds/races e36's, and he mentioned using Turner's kit. I searched a bit and found some older posts from the e36 crowd that used them, and that apparently they are BMW factory plates found on e36 M3's, but couldn't find info on longevity, etc.

Any insight?

[dcrothers]

The TMS kit is not fit the Z3 chassis. Or rear end is E30.

[dcrothers]

The TMS kit is not fit the Z3 chassis. Or rear end is E30.

I hate typing on my phone.

[4G63T]

Yea, I was kind of wondering that, given the general lack of information. I wasn't sure how specific the kit would be. Thanks for the info. I'll see if he's willing to weld in Randy's kit.

[mcoupemindy]

This isn't just a weld in reinforcement like the e36 (which is simple). Sounds to me like the shop doesn't really know a lot about the chassis - stay away. There are basically no good BMW specific shops in Pittsburgh and none that I would trust to do the job.

If you decide not to go with Randy's kit, there's a local fabrication outfit here that builds pure race cars that can do the reinforcement for a very reasonable cost. You have my phone number if you need details.

[4G63T]

Yea, the actual design/implementation of TMS' vs Randy's was really different, which is why I was sort of confused when he mentioned it. It's not something that's currently mission critical, I was more or less just trying to see who'd be available, if the need should arise. There is another chassis guy locally that, while not BMW-specific, I'd trust to not destroy things, given his past work. I might give him a buzz at some point, but we'll see.

[Vintage42]

This isn't just a weld in reinforcement like the e36 (which is simple). Sounds to me like the shop doesn't really know a lot about the chassis - stay away. There are basically no good BMW specific shops in Pittsburgh and none that I would trust to do the job. If you decide not to go with Randy's kit, there's a local fabrication outfit here that builds pure race cars that can do the reinforcement for a very reasonable cost. You have my phone number if you need details.

This brings to mind a number of observations...
1. If the rear subframe problem is popped welds, I don't understand why a lot of continuous welding around the subframe channel would not be a repair solution. But evidently, it is not.
2. Is the Haymarket outfit familiar with the Randy Forbes reinforcement / upgrade kit and going to replicate it? Or do they install the Forbes kit? Or do they have a different and simpler reinforcement method, like Dinan's?
3. The OP is in Pittsburgh. If the Haymarket (Washington DC) outfit does anything like Randy Forbes, it will take 1-2 weeks, meaning the car has to be driven and then left there, then picked up. Or shipped back and forth.

[fire2]

This brings to mind a number of observations...
1. If the rear subframe problem is popped welds, I don't understand why a continuous weld around the subframe channel would not be a repair solution. But evidently, it is not. .

Good question, never have seen an answer on this. ???????

[4G63T]

I've wondered that as well. I don't know if it's a structural thing with too thin of metal, or issues with the design of the current plates (vs Randy's,) etc. To be honest, the answer is probably in a thread on here that I/we haven't read.

Randy has said in past posts that someone with decent welding skills and an ability to read instructions can install his kit, which is why I'd like to think this local chassis shop (they've built hot rods, cages for e30s, all sorts of random custom work) would be able to sort this out, should it come to it. To be honest, if I was more confident in my welding I'd probably give it a go, but I'm not sure I trust myself to maintain structural integrity or alignment with something like this.

Then again, if my only option was the place Jonathan mentioned, I'd drive it down and take a Megabus back to Pittsburgh

[mcoupemindy]

This brings to mind a number of observations... 1. If the rear subframe problem is popped welds, I don't understand why a lot of continuous welding around the subframe channel would not be a repair solution. But evidently, it is not.

It will just rip apart at a different location. There are a few that have tried this without success.

2. Is the Haymarket outfit familiar with the Randy Forbes reinforcement / upgrade kit and going to replicate it? Or do they install the Forbes kit? Or do they have a different and simpler reinforcement method, like Dinan's?

Dinan's reinforcement method is a joke. Randy's is the best, off the shelf kit you can get. I personally went with a full custom reinforcement to my standards (serious overkill) as it is necessary for the amount of torque and associated torsion my rear end sees. I would HIGHLY recommend Randy's kit to anyone that's looking for a weld in, no serious fabrication, method.

3. The OP is in Pittsburgh. If the Haymarket (Washington DC) outfit does anything like Randy Forbes, it will take 1-2 weeks, meaning the car has to be driven and then left there, then picked up. Or shipped back and forth.

A full trunk floor reinforcement is about 10 hours of labor and supplies (it's really not a "subframe reinforcement" - "subframe problem" is really the wrong terminology for this failure). Most competent shops that schedule time properly can get this knocked out in a day and a half.


That said, the shop I'm referring to is Piper Motorsport. http://www.pipermotorsport.com/ If there's any doubt in their ability, take a look at some of the ridiculous projects on their website. I'm also pretty damn sure they'd put Randy's kit in without hesitation also.

[fire2]

It will just rip apart at a different location. There are a few that have tried this without success..

With all trunk floor seams welded up what other specific locations have been know to rip apart
that wouldnt rip with a reinforcment kit installed. (other than differential mount)

[BenFenner]

The differential ear mount is known to tear, which would not be addressed if the spot welds were simply augmented as suggested.

[Randy Forbes]

With all trunk floor seams welded up what other specific locations have been know to rip apart
that wouldnt rip with a reinforcment kit installed. (other than differential mount)

Immediately next to the welds; it's a condition popularly known as hydrogen embrittlement.

Welding all the seems is great__if you're a dishonest person selling it the next day touting it being "fixed" but that description doesn't fit too many people here.

When only the crossmember is seam welding to the underside of the floor__so this is all out of position work too__nothing has been done to address the amount the crossmember will still flex. It's the constant flexing that fractures the metal, just like bending a twig back and forth in your hand.

In Dinan's defense, when their subframe reinforcement was conceived, people hadn't started having trouble with their trunkfloors yet__their device was marketed as a handling aid, designed to "limit" the excessive amount of movement in the rear suspension carrier (aka subframe). I've been told by a few people buying my reinforcement kit that they called Dinan first, and were told to spend their money with me. Sounds pretty upfront, if you ask me!

I mean, I've reinforced several cars that have already had replacement trunkfloors installed by dealers (that had the option of doing additional welding) and they still failed__often in less time than it took the original floor to fail.

[CMM3]

there is only one thing better than having a reputable shop that has installed Randy's kit into a z3 do the work...

That is having the man himself do it.

Most shops are charging $100 an hour for fabrication work some are already at $110.

I shipped my car from NH to Randy when he was in OH to have him do the work. It made sense given the hourly rate he was able to offer me.

Not only did it make fiscal sense but the quality of work and attention to detail that Randy provides is second to none.

I would highly reccomend anyone that is thinking of having their subframe done, think of any other work that they might be planning on having a shop do and have Randy do it all

I spent a good deal of money with Randy..helped him build his house in FL I think ...LOL

In addition to installing his kit he also: reinforced and braced my rear shock towers, seam welded my front strut towers, repaired my strut brace, installed an adj toe/camber kit along with subframe bushings in the rear, installed new rear wheel bearings, parking brake cables, axle boots, did my connecting rod bearings and adjusted my valves.

I cringe at the thought of how much this would have cost me to have done anywhere else. But in the end I got a tremedous value and piece of mind knowing that it was all done right.

The only thing I'd do different is fly in and pick the car up at Randy's after it was done, but he was still in OH it was still early in the season and Z3's with Nitto 555's don't handle too well in the snow.

[Vintage42]

... A full trunk floor reinforcement is about 10 hours of labor and supplies... Most competent shops that schedule time properly can get this knocked out in a day and a half.... the shop I'm referring to is Piper Motorsport. http://www.pipermotorsport.com/ If there's any doubt in their ability, take a look at some of the ridiculous projects on their website. I'm also pretty damn sure they'd put Randy's kit in without hesitation also.

I have all of Piper's contact info, because someone on of the forums said they had subframe work done there. I don't know if it was Randy's kit. I mentioned it to Randy, and he said he had not heard of Piper.
The time frame of 10 hours or 1.5 days sounds like one could drive to Piper's and stay in a motel during the work. However, Randy's info sheet (PDF) says his kit is budgeted at 32 hours to install, and with the mastic and paint curing time, plus fabrications (and maybe extra work that people like such as bushings), it is best to allow two weeks total. Even if Piper's is a day's drive, two weeks is a lot of motel and rental car and restaurant time, which leads to shipping the car. And if you are going to ship, may as well ship it to the master in Florida.

[Randy Forbes]

there is only one thing better than having a reputable shop that has installed Randy's kit into a z3 do the work...

That is having the man himself do it.

Most shops are charging $100 an hour for fabrication work some are already at $110.

I shipped my car from NH to Randy when he was in OH to have him do the work. It made sense given the hourly rate he was able to offer me.

Not only did it make fiscal sense but the quality of work and attention to detail that Randy provides is second to none.

I would highly reccomend anyone that is thinking of having their subframe done, think of any other work that they might be planning on having a shop do and have Randy do it all

I spent a good deal of money with Randy..helped him build his house in FL I think ...LOL

In addition to installing his kit he also: reinforced and braced my rear shock towers, seam welded my front strut towers, repaired my strut brace, installed an adj toe/camber kit along with subframe bushings in the rear, installed new rear wheel bearings, parking brake cables, axle boots, did my connecting rod bearings and adjusted my valves.

I cringe at the thought of how much this would have cost me to have done anywhere else. But in the end I got a tremedous value and piece of mind knowing that it was all done right.

The only thing I'd do different is fly in and pick the car up at Randy's after it was done, but he was still in OH it was still early in the season and Z3's with Nitto 555's don't handle too well in the snow.

Thanks Dan, I should hire you to do my PR work! Or at the very least, encourage you to buy a couple more Coupes!!

Oh, and remember, I modified and fit the trailer hitch and driver's seat too. I don't know about the house, but you certainly bought almost half of the garage! And we all know where I spend most of my time, between the two