The s54 engine isnt as impressive as everyone says

[r6e36]

I think you need to do some homework before you post. The GT3 is a limited production NA 911.
I do agree that BMW could have done better for the M3 motor since the euro 3.2 has been around since '95 and the power outlut hasn't changes much. Who the hell cares about HP/L? Are we now turning into Honda lovers who have to use that excuse to justfy their weak tiny motor? So If I drive a M3 with a 120HP .6L engine then I should be happy because the motor makes 200hp/L? Let's be realistic, what we really car is the power output of the motor, how much it weights and how much the car cost. Everything else is just excuses. Who care if it's a 6, 8 or 10 cylinder?

Originally posted by m3ltw98
Your comparing apples to oranges here. A porsche GT3 is turbo'd not N/A. The S54 motor is a very powerful and torquey motor. If you dont like what BMW is doing, I believe a Porsche dealership is a couple of miles away.

[Sticky]

Originally posted by r6e36
I think you need to do some homework before you post. The GT3 is a limited production NA 911.
I do agree that BMW could have done better for the M3 motor since the euro 3.2 has been around since '95 and the power outlut hasn't changes much. Who the hell cares about HP/L? Are we now turning into Honda lovers who have to use that excuse to justfy their weak tiny motor? So If I drive a M3 with a 120HP .6L engine then I should be happy because the motor makes 200hp/L? Let's be realistic, what we really car is the power output of the motor, how much it weights and how much the car cost. Everything else is just excuses. Who care if it's a 6, 8 or 10 cylinder?

Thank you for your post, I agree wholeheartedly. The point people are missing is that, the s54 is a great motor, we all agree on that, but that with competition increasing, BMW needs to keep pace. I believe bmw will of course, it is unfortunate the s54 is already outgunned. It is a great time to be a car enthusiast and it is ok to question a company you are brand loyal to!

[Bernanke]

Originally posted by b0rf
What company DOESN'T do this?

this is true, but it seems like BMW tries to cut more corners than other companies which is exactly why the M3 had those engine failures b/c they tried to cut too many corners and as a result they made an unreliable kamakazi engine.

[Bernanke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roxy
[B]

You're right...But diesels are not NA....I'm talking about NA engines, not FORCED INDUCTION engines. All diesels are forced induction, so why are you comparing the two?
[QUOTE]

not true, even NA diesels can rape gas motors in the torque arena, thats why all towing is done by diesel cars. turbo deisels make rediculous amounts of torque, but the don't move, case and point my dads 1983 Benz 240D with a 0--60 of 19.7 seconds .

[GMat]

Originally posted by sticky2
How big are your tits by the way?

Comments like that are inappropriate. Keep it civil.

[Roxy]

Thanks GMat
And sticky, it's nothing personal, okay? It's just that you used a bad example.

[Roxy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SupaBimma
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Roxy


You're right...But diesels are not NA....I'm talking about NA engines, not FORCED INDUCTION engines. All diesels are forced induction, so why are you comparing the two?

not true, even NA diesels can rape gas motors in the torque arena, thats why all towing is done by diesel cars. turbo deisels make rediculous amounts of torque, but the don't move, case and point my dads 1983 Benz 240D with a 0--60 of 19.7 seconds .

Well your 240d only had 97 lbs of torque so how is it raping anything (40lbs. per liter)

and thats all she wrote..........

[Bernanke]

b/c thats the slowest deisel ever made, you take any good deisel and it will rape your car in torque anyday and you know it.

[Stealth]

first of all i think you need to learn some f'ing respect for women.

what the hell are we arguing now? diesel? ...

you're coming off as if everyone is holding the S54 as the engine of all engines. how is it getting more credit than it deserves? what are people doing other than stating valid points of what the motor does...

-333 hp out of a 3.2L i-6
-yea the M3 is heavy BMW knew that so they should have compensated for that when they put in the engine like the supra...the car weighs 3415lbs and goes to 60 in 4.6 secs...is that not fast enough?
-you continue to bring up cars with a much high price point. "yea if more performance calls for a higher price then do it"... sorry but economics doesnt work this way. bmw put money aside when they built the GTR. and the price tag was what 200,000? Porche NSX, 360, all these cars have at least 30k on the M3.


whatever i'm not typing any more

[Sticky]

Originally posted by Stealth
first of all i think you need to learn some f'ing respect for women.

what the hell are we arguing now? diesel? ...

you're coming off as if everyone is holding the S54 as the engine of all engines. how is it getting more credit than it deserves? what are people doing other than stating valid points of what the motor does...

-333 hp out of a 3.2L i-6
-yea the M3 is heavy BMW knew that so they should have compensated for that when they put in the engine like the supra...the car weighs 3415lbs and goes to 60 in 4.6 secs...is that not fast enough?
-you continue to bring up cars with a much high price point. "yea if more performance calls for a higher price then do it"... sorry but economics doesnt work this way. bmw put money aside when they built the GTR. and the price tag was what 200,000? Porche NSX, 360, all these cars have at least 30k on the M3.


whatever i'm not typing any more

First maybe you should get a sense of humor. I was joking around with roxy, she made some good points. She came on strong, so I played it all off in my own manner.

Im not saying that everyone says the s54 engine is the holy grail, just that bmw could and should have done a better job. Possibly building a whole new engine from scratch with more displacement, so they would not have to subject it to such high stress to get 333 hp out of it. Especially if they were not going to use internal components that are up to par.

I dont know who's m3 you have been in that does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, but most are doing it in 4.8 with a 1/4 of 13.2-13.4. This is very fast, yes, but look at how the competition is upping the ante. The m3 is not a dragster, that is not why I bought it, and it is not a matter of it only having 333 hp, but it is a matter of the engine not being able to withstand the 333 hp it has stock, and not being a big improvent over the old e36 3.2 liter.

You dont have to spend shitloads of money to get performance. Mercedes went to forced induction, this saves money. Engineers do not have to sit around all day trying to gain every ounce of power out of their engines. I am not saying bmw should do this, but if they want more power in an NA powerplant, greater displacent and stronger internals are a good start. Here are cars cheaper then the m3 that will outperform it: SVT Cobra, lancer evo VIII, lotus elise, subaru sti, vette z06 (close in price, but still cheaper). Does this mean the m3 is a bad car? Certainly not, there is more to a bmw then just the engine power alone, which is why we choose bmw's car over others. I am just saying there is a lot of room for improvement.

Whats with "whatever im not typing anymore?" Why get pissed off over something like this? Why not just have a discussion and make your point, and wait for a rebuttal?

[Roxy]

I think Stealth said that because it gets to a certain point where you can't explain it anymore. If you don't get it, you don't get it, no matter how much the person explains it.

I think he wanted to stop wasting his time typing because he thought it was a lost cause.

I don't know if that's really why, but that's how I feel. I can only do some much and explain it so much before I realize that it's not worth my time.

I can see what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense. You're comparing two totally different things.

I don't know. BMW is not a perfect car, but it has many advantages over the other cars you mentioned.

[Phattydave]

There is alot more to BMW's beside the engine...

[ibizam3]

Let's all have a nice, cold Mike's Hard Lemonade.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Roxy
I think Stealth said that because it gets to a certain point where you can't explain it anymore. If you don't get it, you don't get it, no matter how much the person explains it.

I think he wanted to stop wasting his time typing because he thought it was a lost cause.

I don't know if that's really why, but that's how I feel. I can only do some much and explain it so much before I realize that it's not worth my time.

I can see what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense. You're comparing two totally different things.

I don't know. BMW is not a perfect car, but it has many advantages over the other cars you mentioned.

yes

[Sticky]

Originally posted by Roxy
I think Stealth said that because it gets to a certain point where you can't explain it anymore. If you don't get it, you don't get it, no matter how much the person explains it.

I think he wanted to stop wasting his time typing because he thought it was a lost cause.

I don't know if that's really why, but that's how I feel. I can only do some much and explain it so much before I realize that it's not worth my time.

I can see what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense. You're comparing two totally different things.

I don't know. BMW is not a perfect car, but it has many advantages over the other cars you mentioned.

What do I not get? Every point you attempted to make that was incorrect I countered. I calmy explained my views, yet you and stealth all bent out of shape. Yes there is more to a car then just the engine, which is what I said, thank you for reiterating that. If you do not understand what I said, I can understand that it might be over your head.

[Brent_Vino]

I'm with sticky on this one.... for what is coming out and what the competitors are bringing to the table now... the e46 M3 hp should be around the 380 range.

the e30 to the e36 was a huge advancement.

the e36 to the e46 not much better.. euro-wise. take into consideration the price of what was then a new e36 compared to the price of a what is now the E46 M3.


you cannot argue that more people are disgruntled in the direction bmw is heading. it might take until 2006 or so before BMW reasserts itself. sure the M5 is AWESOME.. but what have u done for me lately?

as benz and audi are moving forward, it seems BMW is remaining idle.

the new m3 shouldve been nearing 400hp ... u might argue then why by the M5? sedan vs. coupe is the answer.


nice job, Sticky.

[Bernanke]

Well supposedly rumors have it 2004 M3 will have a new motor with more ummph, this current motor was just a transition motor (again rumor, can't verify). M5 is awesome, but benz keeps attacking the market and it blowing away the competition in almost every catagory except for handling which BMW luckily is still the champ. around the same time M3 upgrades motor new M5 will be comping out so they wont be so close in the HP catagory. I personally don't like where BMW is going stylisticall b/c of damn chris bangle and the cars are getting heavier and heavier by the year. Mercedes is doing the opposite trying to make their cars lighter and less tank like. Bmw should stick to their proven formula of very light agile cars with robust powerful reliable motors. Suspension and weight is what wins battles on the track, not just HP.

[tlaselva]

I'm with Sticky also on this one.

There are a handful of cars out there that will stay neck and neck with the M3, at a price point much less.
I've heard rumors that the M3 will have the M5 engine once the new M5 has the V10. I'm not sure if that will happen though. The E46 is heavy enough without another 300 lbs. in the front of the car.
BMW is loosing its edge quickly as a premium performance car. There are cars out there that will compete neck and neck with the E46 at a lower price point. For example the new WRX STi.... and that car is only the beginning.
Interesting note that a year and a half ago, my area had a 1-year waiting list for an E46 M3. 6 months ago, when I bought my M, it was a 4-month waiting list. I'm going to predict that this summer, there will not be a waiting list any more. Once BMW sees that their M3 isn't selling like it once did, there going to pull up their sox....
I for one am a little disappointed at the lack of ability to modify the power on the S54. 2 years after the release of this car, the most that one can get is a 10 to 15 HP with an intake and exhaust, and it'll run you 2 to 3 grand. There is SC out there, but I'm not sure if I'd feel comfortable with one on. The S54 is fragile enough without forcing the engine to produce 400+ HP.
This is why I'm currently looking at switching to a Z06.....

[Bernanke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tlaselva
[B]I'm with Sticky also on this one.
I've heard rumors that the M3 will have the M5 engine once the new M5 has the V10. I'm not sure if that will happen though. The E46 is heavy enough without another 300 lbs. in the front of the car.

[QUOTE]

M5 motor is actually 12lbs lighter, just thought i'd share that

[MMJ4mil]

Originally posted by sticky2
Ok, listen girlie, you should go back to knitting a sweater and staying off the forums where the big boys play.

As far as having the highest torque per liter output in a street car thats NA, im sorry, but many diesels kill that number. Since you did not mention in a 6 cylinder, because you were too busy cooking or something, ill tell you who has the highest specific torque output in an NA 6 cylinder. The porsche gt3 now claims that title with 82 over the m3's 81.

If torque is all that matters why didn't bmw stick in a 8 liter 12 cylinder and be done with it? Why not just get a diesel, we will have torque up the ass. You need hp to keep you moving. The 360 spider has about the same amount of torque as the m3, a close curb weight, and still will smoke it. Why? Way more hp.

Your complaining about the weight? I think bmw knows how much the car is going to weigh. In that case, the car needs more power, plain and simple. If you don't want to shave off weight to keep the comfort level high, add power. This system always has worked well for the m5. Go talk to supra owners, 3600 lbs curb weight, but still an awesomely fast car that is great on the track.

This whole thing was just some observations I made, no need to get your panties in a twist. I guess it is that time of the month.
As far as being schooled by a girl who turned 20, hardly. I can already tell with your comment of having one more year until you can drink that you will make some redneck very happy someday. :

What if they aren't redneck?

<-----Hot guy h0lla at me

[Roxy]

Sorry, J4mil, I don't feel like moving to San Diego

I am a Texas girl.

[VoltesV]

Originally posted by r6e36
Let's be realistic, what we really car is the power output of the motor, how much it weights and how much the car cost. Everything else is just excuses. Who care if it's a 6, 8 or 10 cylinder?

Yikes...If that were true, we'd all be driving Mustangs or Corvettes, which are cheap in relative terms of hp/$. Although I could have purchased a Z06 for a price similar to my E46 M3, the Chebby wasn't something that *I* wanted to own.

Before you flame, notice that I said *I*, as in *me*. I don't know what the rest of you would do, nor am I trying to tell anyone what to do.

But in MY OPINION, we all get a boner over high HP claims, but BMWs have a distinct driving quality which we all recognize or we wouldn't be on this board. For practically all BMWs out there, there is a cheaper non-BMW alternative with more HP. HP numbers are exciting, but there is more to a driving experience than a number. This was certainly a part of my buying decision.

No regrets...

[r6e36]

Voltes,
I think you are missing the point of this tread. We are talking about the engine, not the M3 car as a whole. And I atill stand by those 3 requirements on the engine.
I am still hoping that BMW have plans to shove the M3 GTR's 4.0 V8 on the M3 to keep some distance from those pesky S/C'd AMGs

Originally posted by VoltesV
Yikes...If that were true, we'd all be driving Mustangs or Corvettes, which are cheap in relative terms of hp/$. Although I could have purchased a Z06 for a price similar to my E46 M3, the Chebby wasn't something that *I* wanted to own.

Before you flame, notice that I said *I*, as in *me*. I don't know what the rest of you would do, nor am I trying to tell anyone what to do.

But in MY OPINION, we all get a boner over high HP claims, but BMWs have a distinct driving quality which we all recognize or we wouldn't be on this board. For practically all BMWs out there, there is a cheaper non-BMW alternative with more HP. HP numbers are exciting, but there is more to a driving experience than a number. This was certainly a part of my buying decision.

No regrets...

[tlaselva]

Originally posted by SupaBimma
M5 motor is actually 12lbs lighter, just thought i'd share that

Happy to hear that. Guess my sources were wrong.

Then there's no excuse.........

[jhart]

bacon