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Thread: Brake/Clutch draining/bleeding questions

  1. #1
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    Brake/Clutch draining/bleeding questions

    Hello. I started my winter project on my 97' 1.9 of swapping out all rubber brake/clutch hoses out for SS braided. I have the car on jack stands and cracked the bleeders on the 4 wheels, draining the old brake fluid out. Here's my question. Can I drain the clutch at the same time? Or should I do the brake lines, get them all replaced and bled, then do the clutch? Just trying not to get air trapped somewhere in the hydraulic system. If I drain the whole system, replace the clutch/brake lines, which system do I bleed first, clutch or brake? Any advice is welcome.
    Larry

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    Other than the top of the reservoir, the clutch and brakes are totally unrelated systems. Doesn't matter which is first.

    But since you brought it up, and it's likely too late, I never drain the systems. As long as you keep fluid in the master, you will not have trapped air. This is especially important with the brakes as air in the ABS valve block is notoriously difficult to purge.


    /.randy

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
    Other than the top of the reservoir, the clutch and brakes are totally unrelated systems. Doesn't matter which is first. But since you brought it up, and it's likely too late, I never drain the systems. As long as you keep fluid in the master, you will not have trapped air. This is especially important with the brakes as air in the ABS valve block is notoriously difficult to purge.
    what is the best method for removing the calipers without draining the system? Also the clutch slave cylinder? I have a SS clutch line I want to install, figured I'd rebuild the calipers and change the fluid for some up coming track days.

    OP, you are going to need an obd scanner, that is able to active the abs pump in order to get the air out of the system completely. I believe schwaben makes one. The peake research tool will not accomplish this.

    db
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  4. #4
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    PLugging steel lines is easy; vacuum caps. Plugging banjo bolt fittings is a bit harder.

    I regularly change slave cylinders and/or flex lines without any post-install bleeding.


    /.randy

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post

    I regularly change slave cylinders and/or flex lines without any post-install bleeding.
    But Randy is kinda an expert at it. -- He has written some pretty great instructions in a couple posts here, look for those...
    Built S52 w/Dinan ISR-3 kit, NickG Stage 2+ Tune, Dinan Vortech V2 Supercharger, Dinan Air to Air Intercooler, Dinan CAI, Porsche 803 HFM, Buldogge 6" crank pulley, Griptec 2.90" blower pulley, Eurosport UD pulleys, Dinan 3.38 Diff, Dinan front/rear Swaybars, Dinan springs, Koni Yellow Sport Struts, Ground Control end links, South Bend Clutch Stage 3 Organic, AASCO Light Weight Flywheel 18.5#, Zionsville Radiator & Oil Cooler, Riot Racing BBTB, Schrick Intake Manifold, 42# Injectors, Schrick cams 264/256, Forged Wiseco pistons 9.0 comp., Forged Eagle rods, Supertech dual valve springs & valves, VAC crank & bearings, Supersprint mufflers, Euro Z3 midpipe, Raceland euro headers, Walbro 255, Bevauto ignition coils, Vortech Mondo bypass, Bailey Diverter DV30, Ireland Rear Subframe Bushings, Mason Engineering Strut Brace, Mason Engineering Clutch Petal, Apex 18" EC-7 Wheels, Full Custom Sound System, two trunk lids (with & without OE spoiler), Hardtop, Trunk full of AK's...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
    PLugging steel lines is easy; vacuum caps. Plugging banjo bolt fittings is a bit harder. I regularly change slave cylinders and/or flex lines without any post-install bleeding.
    thank you, that beats golf tees.
    Quote Originally Posted by bubbafett View Post
    But Randy is kinda an expert at it. -- He has written some pretty great instructions in a couple posts here, look for those...
    gonna have to check those out. When I changed the line in my m3 it was a bit of a mess.

    db
    [oo]|[||][||]|[oo]
    '95 M3 Cosmos Schwarz Metallic on Dove Grey: AA CAI, AA bump up kit, Euro HFM, JC chip, AA track pipe, AA Gen III exhaust, AA ltw flywheel and clutch package, X brace, front strut brace, Koni SA shocks, H&R sport springs, GC RSMs, 71 deg T-stat, aluminium housing, JT-D underpanel, Hamann black out grill kit, oem euro lights all around, 18" BBS RC 10s, UUC motorwerks pulley kit, 3 spoke steering wheel, silverstar H1s fog light bulbs, ZKWs w/CCFL, Prolumen 4300k HIDs, Powerflex RTAB and LCAB
    (<oo\(||][||)/oo>)
    '00 M Coupe Oxford Green II Metallic Sunroof Delete on Oregon Beige: (under construction)

  7. #7
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    Oh, the way I do it is messy... expect brake fluid dripping off your elbow while you reconnect the line. But that beats getting the wife out of her nest (aka sewing room) and out into the cold garage.


    /.randy

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 76duece View Post
    ... started my winter project on my 97' 1.9 of swapping out all rubber brake/clutch hoses out for SS braided...
    I bought a Motive pressure bleeder and was about to change the brake fluid. Should I be replacing the old brake hoses with SS? For reasons of deterioration, or just better feel? Where did you get yours?
    BMW MOA 696, BMW CCA 1405

  9. #9
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    Well my winter project was going to be flushing all the old fluid, and replacing the 20 year old rubber lines with fresh SS units. They give a better, firmer feel over the stock lines which can swell over time. I got mine from UCC, along with the SS clutch line. I just hope I have now not made a mistake by letting the fluid drain, and having air trapped in the ABS pump as the other's have said.
    Larry

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sorry, that was UUC, NOT UCC.
    Larry

  10. #10
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    I use a stick of wood to partly depress the brake peddle. Insert in between the peddle and the drivers seat motor and carefully move the seat forward to push the peddle down about 25 mm, yet not break the motor mounts etc. This allows the seals in the master cylinder to cover the fluid hole from the reservoir and stop the fluid draining from the system when you have it open. You still get a few drips from air entering the connection you have open and a couple of vacuum plugs sorts that out.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
    ... As long as you keep fluid in the master, you will not have trapped air. This is especially important with the brakes as air in the ABS valve block is notoriously difficult to purge.
    Quote Originally Posted by 76duece View Post
    ... I just hope I have now not made a mistake by letting the fluid drain, and having air trapped in the ABS pump...
    By opening all the bleeders and letting the fluid drain out by gravity, did it also drain the master cylinder?
    If so, if the pedal has not been depressed, I wonder if closing the bleeders and refilling the master will keep air out of the ABS block.
    BMW MOA 696, BMW CCA 1405

  12. #12
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    If you have a MIGHTYVAC like the MV7201 Fluid Evacuator Plus (for oil changes) then get this accessory to make it a breeze.....

    the MVA7205 Brake Bleed Conversion Kit !! So sweet and easy to use! No air gets in anywhere as vacuum is applied at the bleed nipple and you just keep topping off the reservoir with new fluid.

    brake.JPG

    To keep the mess down some take the 1st old (front) brake hose you remove and cut it about 2" from the FEMALE fitting, put a screw in the hose. Now when you open a hard line screw this old plugged hose on the hard line typically finger tight will stop the drip drip drip. Now you just have to bleed air from the new soft line you just installed.

    Make a second once from another old hose, put in tool box for the next time when done with the job.
    Last edited by ZUUD BYE; 01-19-2017 at 02:56 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZUUD BYE View Post
    ... the MVA7205 Brake Bleed Conversion Kit !! So sweet and easy to use! No air gets in anywhere as vacuum is applied at the bleed nipple and you just keep topping off the reservoir with new fluid...
    Which is better, vacuum at the nipple or pressure at the nipple? MightyVac or Motive?
    Last edited by Vintage42; 01-19-2017 at 04:15 PM.
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  14. #14
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    I have done both in the past and much prefer vacuum at the nipple over pressure at the reservoir ( I still have a Motive type device in the shed ). So to me MightVac is the better solution, plus you can vacuum your oil through the dip stick and not have to go under the car for an oil change. Keep in mind you need the MIGHTYVAC MV7201 Fluid Evacuator Plus (approx. $100) also for the Brake Bleed Conversion Kit to fit on to and work.
    'Sweetness Tres' M44, 1.9L Z3 5-Speed Roadster '97 Boston Green 66K Smiles Mine
    'Sweetness Too' M52, 2.5L Z3 5-Speed Roadster, '00 Jet Black 165K Smiles 2022 Gone Ins Co Total in Jan 2022- Right Front Collision - Paid $8850 !!
    'Ol' Black Betty' S52, 3.2L ///M3 5-Speed Vert '98 Cosmos Black 265K Smiles Wifeys
    M50, 2.5L 525i E34 Tragi-matic '95 Sedan Alpine White III 238K Smiles Was Daughters Mine Again
    'Gretchen' M30, 3.5L 535i E34 Tragi-matic '90 Sedan Glacier Blue/Indigo 144K Smiles 2018 Gone & I miss her
    'Sweetness' M44, 1.9L Z3 5-Speed Roadster '96 Boston Green 264K Smiles Was Mine Ins Co Total in Jan 2013- Rear End Collision - Paid $4800 !!

  15. #15
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    I just did this last summer motive bleeder makes just brake, or brake lines a breeze, and SS lines do make for a firm petal if you get the air out of the slave. For the slave I used a OE slave and a UUC line, with the bevauto tool and motive power bleeder. I took me a couple tries to get the air out. I used the instructions from post http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2128364-So-I-replaced-my-M-roadster-clutch-line-today&p=27938021#post27938021

    and https://www.bavauto.com/Assets/inst_pages/ins325.pdf

    A couple things from my experience what finally worked for me was , when the plunger is compressed using the bevauto tool, when under pressure with the power bleeder, then opening the bleeder up, then I pushed the clutch petal to the floor by hand maybe 10 or 12 times, finally changing orientation of the slave from horizontal to vertical and jiggling it (vibrating it by hand). This then yielded allot of air out into the bleeder tube catch bottle. As Randy has said before if your clutch petal is not rock solid then you still have air...

    And here is another post with allot of chatter about the same subject http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...leeding+master
    Last edited by bubbafett; 01-19-2017 at 08:55 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
    Oh, the way I do it is messy... expect brake fluid dripping off your elbow while you reconnect the line. But that beats getting the wife out of her nest (aka sewing room) and out into the cold garage.
    the sound insulation on my M3 got soaked in brake fluid. That shit got everywhere, I had a hard time getting my catch bottle in there and the hose kept popping off when I would try to get my line wrench in there.

    I have UUC lines on my M3 but bimmerworld lines on my coupe. The crimps on the fittings are closer to oem than any other brand, except rogue engineering but their clutch line didn't have the hard line direct fitted to the SS line. It was screwed on to the SS line. I figured I'd go with the line that had the least chance of leaking from that connection. I also prefer the oem style crimps. I've never had any UUC parts fail personally but I have read about some quality issues with their parts in the past.

    db
    [oo]|[||][||]|[oo]
    '95 M3 Cosmos Schwarz Metallic on Dove Grey: AA CAI, AA bump up kit, Euro HFM, JC chip, AA track pipe, AA Gen III exhaust, AA ltw flywheel and clutch package, X brace, front strut brace, Koni SA shocks, H&R sport springs, GC RSMs, 71 deg T-stat, aluminium housing, JT-D underpanel, Hamann black out grill kit, oem euro lights all around, 18" BBS RC 10s, UUC motorwerks pulley kit, 3 spoke steering wheel, silverstar H1s fog light bulbs, ZKWs w/CCFL, Prolumen 4300k HIDs, Powerflex RTAB and LCAB
    (<oo\(||][||)/oo>)
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  17. #17
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    Funny you mention the quality issues with UUC lines. I was putting the fronts on last night, and i'm NOT impressed them at all. The end that goes to the hard line has a fitting that is different than stock, and I had to slide a washer over the end to keep it from slipping through the perch on the inner fender. Also, the fittings are 9/16" not metric, which is not bad in a functionality sense, it just seems like they mailed it in with the fittings, not bothering to source proper metric fittings. Also, the rubber mount that clips into the shock is too big, and was EXTREMLEY hard to put on, even with copious amounts of grease to persuade them. They were actually torn a bit but the metal clip on the shock, not liking that. They are in a different spot on the line than the OEM, and this creates a line with no play on one side and a lot of play on the other. I feel it will create unneeded stress on the line and fitting. I'll be calling UUC today to discuss.
    Larry

  18. #18
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    Again I'm chiming in too late, but I strongly recommend only using brake lines that are DOT approved. This is from both a quality assurance point of view, and to minimize personal liability issues should a failure happen.


    /.randy

  19. #19
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    I rebuilt all 4 calipers, replaced all brake lines with goodridge G stop SS lines and for the clutch line I went with Rogue engineering bc they have a better setup then UUC. I also have a Motive power bleeder had had no problems with trapped air in the lines. My calipers were off the car and did not cap the old lines for 2 weeks until I rebuilt everything.

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