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Thread: Subs and Under Seat speakers Question

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Subs and Under Seat speakers Question

    I am having two 10" Hertz Mille Pro subs installed (corner loaded) in my e90 M3 next week. I know I will need to address the under seat woofers since they are no longer acting as the subs but not sure what I need to ask/tell them to do.

    any ideas?

    thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Hi,

    If you are adding an enclosure in the rear of the car, driven by a suitable quality amplifier, are you leaving the cabin speakers as is and driven from the oem amp?

    If so, then you'll perhaps find they'll be overwhelmed by the bass from the new enclosure/subs assuming you'll 'vent' into the cabin by removing the ski hatch. If that's the case, you'll need to turn the gain and bass control down on the amplifier driving the new subs. You'll leave the oem underseat subs and the door midrange/tweeter units as is.

    Issue with the above setup is that you have to 'reduce' the power/audio setting to compensate for big power for the new subs for the relatively weak power of the OEM setup.

    My advice would be to upgrade the front underseat subs/midrange/tweeter to one of the all in one upgrade speaker kits from the likes of Rockford Fosgate, MB Quart, MTX, Focal, Gladen who all do packages. They make the 'best' of the oem amplifier, and quite a number of owners find there's enough of a sound quality increase by this route not to need any more equipment. If you find it's not enough, then many will then add an amplifier to drive those new upgraded speakers with more power and efficiency and they play even better. Again, some owners now find it enough not to add any more equipment. If you feel that is still not enough, then you add the trunk/boot enclosure with subwoofers.

    You've gone 'backwards' as it were !

    Cheers, Dennis!

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCooper View Post
    Hi,

    If you are adding an enclosure in the rear of the car, driven by a suitable quality amplifier, are you leaving the cabin speakers as is and driven from the oem amp?

    If so, then you'll perhaps find they'll be overwhelmed by the bass from the new enclosure/subs assuming you'll 'vent' into the cabin by removing the ski hatch. If that's the case, you'll need to turn the gain and bass control down on the amplifier driving the new subs. You'll leave the oem underseat subs and the door midrange/tweeter units as is.

    Issue with the above setup is that you have to 'reduce' the power/audio setting to compensate for big power for the new subs for the relatively weak power of the OEM setup.

    My advice would be to upgrade the front underseat subs/midrange/tweeter to one of the all in one upgrade speaker kits from the likes of Rockford Fosgate, MB Quart, MTX, Focal, Gladen who all do packages. They make the 'best' of the oem amplifier, and quite a number of owners find there's enough of a sound quality increase by this route not to need any more equipment. If you find it's not enough, then many will then add an amplifier to drive those new upgraded speakers with more power and efficiency and they play even better. Again, some owners now find it enough not to add any more equipment. If you feel that is still not enough, then you add the trunk/boot enclosure with subwoofers.

    You've gone 'backwards' as it were !

    Cheers, Dennis!
    Thanks Dennis for your response! I'll look into the speaker kits but i'm going to keep with the subs. Also, I'll be powering them both together with 1200 watts so for now i'll just enjoy the bass

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCooper View Post
    Hi,

    If you are adding an enclosure in the rear of the car, driven by a suitable quality amplifier, are you leaving the cabin speakers as is and driven from the oem amp?

    If so, then you'll perhaps find they'll be overwhelmed by the bass from the new enclosure/subs assuming you'll 'vent' into the cabin by removing the ski hatch. If that's the case, you'll need to turn the gain and bass control down on the amplifier driving the new subs. You'll leave the oem underseat subs and the door midrange/tweeter units as is.

    Issue with the above setup is that you have to 'reduce' the power/audio setting to compensate for big power for the new subs for the relatively weak power of the OEM setup.

    My advice would be to upgrade the front underseat subs/midrange/tweeter to one of the all in one upgrade speaker kits from the likes of Rockford Fosgate, MB Quart, MTX, Focal, Gladen who all do packages. They make the 'best' of the oem amplifier, and quite a number of owners find there's enough of a sound quality increase by this route not to need any more equipment. If you find it's not enough, then many will then add an amplifier to drive those new upgraded speakers with more power and efficiency and they play even better. Again, some owners now find it enough not to add any more equipment. If you feel that is still not enough, then you add the trunk/boot enclosure with subwoofers.

    You've gone 'backwards' as it were !

    Cheers, Dennis!
    also, sound wise, do you think the sound would be similar if i went corner loaded vs rear facing?

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Hi,

    With BMW's due to their solidity, it's harder to get musical, tight, controlled sub bass into the cabin. The method you describe where the sub(s) are in enclosures at the sides of the trunk/boot and further back towards the light clusters will provide sub bass and that energy will just swirl around the trunk area and serve to rattle your number plate and vibrate the body panels. This is an inefficient way of doing things as not much sub bass will 'flow' into the cabin, especially if you don't have a ski hatch or vent. You'll hear and feel some 'vibrational' bass yes, but it's perhaps a 75-90% loss. You mention 1200 watts, now if that's RMS power, then that's a LOT of power for the subs, and it'll create a lot of vibrations and rattles as all the bass will be 'locked' in the trunk. Many people who try this route then spend extra substantial amounts buying sound deadening and absorption material, then time and money installing it all in an effort to reduce those vibrations/rattles.

    If you see the pictures below, this is the way to get 100% efficiency in transfer or 'flow' of musical, controlled, tight sub bass into the cabin where you sit.





    With a small enclosure behind the subwoofer, you can see that when it plays, then 100% of the bass goes straight into the cabin. Due to this efficiency, you need less powerful of an amplifier, which in turn draws less current and then in turn places less demand on the cars electrical charging system (alternator). You get that musical, controlled sub bass I've mentioned a few times now and you save more money/time/faffing around by not having to buy sound deadening and absorption material. You can save a bit more by using a single 8/10/12 inch subwoofer, or, if you feel a bit more adventurous and use a bigger enclosure design, you can go twin 8/10/12 as shown below;





    The twin setup in an E39 is a few miles from my house and the owner is a previous customer of mine. The install itself was done by another installer who now has moved into home cinema/theatre installs! It was a 'show' setup, but of course money can be saved by omitting the lighting effects and perspex window. This method of setup sounds much better than the corner loaded method you are currently thinking for the reasons above. The cabin speakers were of course all upgraded and the resulting sound is exceptional.

    Cheers, Dennis!

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Can't agree enough with Dennis - he's always right in line with my thinking when it comes to BMWs and audio. The first thing to do is to get the sub bass from the trunk into the cabin, which can be accomplished in a number of ways, but all include venting into the cabin through the rear deck or behind the armrest. One of my favorite setups when I used to do custom audio in BMWs was to run a single or dual subs in a bandpass enclosure with the port venting into the cabin so that all of the bass energy was directed toward the listeners and not the car's body or anyone outside of the car.

    Once the sub situation is sorted out, they could be set up via crossovers to run from 20hz to 50-60hz, and upgraded underseat woofers can be utilized to fill in the higher sub-bass frequencies from 60-100hz. Your door and rear deck drivers can handle the rest. Adding an amp to the interior speakers as well will really give you the best of all possible outcomes, but certainly going in stages means that you won't waste time and money on upgrades that may not be important to you in the long run.

    Let me know if we can help!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt@bavsound View Post
    Can't agree enough with Dennis - he's always right in line with my thinking when it comes to BMWs and audio. The first thing to do is to get the sub bass from the trunk into the cabin, which can be accomplished in a number of ways, but all include venting into the cabin through the rear deck or behind the armrest. One of my favorite setups when I used to do custom audio in BMWs was to run a single or dual subs in a bandpass enclosure with the port venting into the cabin so that all of the bass energy was directed toward the listeners and not the car's body or anyone outside of the car.

    Once the sub situation is sorted out, they could be set up via crossovers to run from 20hz to 50-60hz, and upgraded underseat woofers can be utilized to fill in the higher sub-bass frequencies from 60-100hz. Your door and rear deck drivers can handle the rest. Adding an amp to the interior speakers as well will really give you the best of all possible outcomes, but certainly going in stages means that you won't waste time and money on upgrades that may not be important to you in the long run.

    Let me know if we can help!
    This is interesting too read your guys suggestions. Most stuff I've read for BMW's is to corner load the subs, which will get you more dB and cut down on the trunk rattling compared to a rear trunk facing sub(s). This is indeed how musicar recommends their setups.

  7. #7
    Dwin is offline Go Big or Go Home......
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCooper View Post
    Hi,

    With BMW's due to their solidity, it's harder to get musical, tight, controlled sub bass into the cabin. The method you describe where the sub(s) are in enclosures at the sides of the trunk/boot and further back towards the light clusters will provide sub bass and that energy will just swirl around the trunk area and serve to rattle your number plate and vibrate the body panels. This is an inefficient way of doing things as not much sub bass will 'flow' into the cabin, especially if you don't have a ski hatch or vent. You'll hear and feel some 'vibrational' bass yes, but it's perhaps a 75-90% loss. You mention 1200 watts, now if that's RMS power, then that's a LOT of power for the subs, and it'll create a lot of vibrations and rattles as all the bass will be 'locked' in the trunk. Many people who try this route then spend extra substantial amounts buying sound deadening and absorption material, then time and money installing it all in an effort to reduce those vibrations/rattles.

    If you see the pictures below, this is the way to get 100% efficiency in transfer or 'flow' of musical, controlled, tight sub bass into the cabin where you sit.





    With a small enclosure behind the subwoofer, you can see that when it plays, then 100% of the bass goes straight into the cabin. Due to this efficiency, you need less powerful of an amplifier, which in turn draws less current and then in turn places less demand on the cars electrical charging system (alternator). You get that musical, controlled sub bass I've mentioned a few times now and you save more money/time/faffing around by not having to buy sound deadening and absorption material. You can save a bit more by using a single 8/10/12 inch subwoofer, or, if you feel a bit more adventurous and use a bigger enclosure design, you can go twin 8/10/12 as shown below;





    The twin setup in an E39 is a few miles from my house and the owner is a previous customer of mine. The install itself was done by another installer who now has moved into home cinema/theatre installs! It was a 'show' setup, but of course money can be saved by omitting the lighting effects and perspex window. This method of setup sounds much better than the corner loaded method you are currently thinking for the reasons above. The cabin speakers were of course all upgraded and the resulting sound is exceptional.

    Cheers, Dennis!
    Dennis with the first setup the hole was cut and speaker was placed, once that was done was the backside enclosed domyou haven pictures of the finished product. I do like the look of this and would like to do it also but need pictures of the finished product. This setup also lets me keep my trunk space which is really needed, car is my DD and a grocery getter and soccer, baseball etc... dad thanks in advance Dennis
    [/IMG]

  8. #8
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    Hi,

    Matt - Thanks for the compliment !

    DerS4 - Do you have links to 'musicar' ? are they an installer? or a web forum?. As mentioned by Matt above, alongside the route you are thinking, there's other ways too. What you do need to consider is all aspects, so choice of subwoofer driver, RMS power of the amplifier to be used, the construction of the enclosure which is/can be more complex to fit in those corner locations snugly and securely etc. The corner locations will cost you more to make and more if you wish to use that sound deadening material etc. The method I mention and favour, is the enclosure that fits up against the rear seat bulkhead and the sub 'fire' through it as shown in the pictures above - it's 100% efficient. Given the simple design of the enclosure to make there, that depending on subwoofer driver it can be 'really tiny' and the resulting performance can be utterly awesome, the cost Vs performance levels gained is excellent in comparison to the other potential methods. Again, if you are looking for more sub bass, then perhaps a loaded bandpass type enclosure is what you'd want, costs for making such an enclosure start to get significantly higher.

    Dwin - I haven't got more pictures, they were taken from a forum member here with his permission to use when the topic of how to get excellent sub bass in the E39 without going overly complex, very easy on the wallet. The Square Kicker sub shown is from a few years ago now. Taking this concept further, you could use a 6 or 8 inch sub, or a flat 10 inch and the enclosure behind would perhaps be about 5 inches in depth, 8/10/12 inches in width (Approx) and perhaps 20 inches in height, i.e Very very small indeed. That sized enclosure wouldn't take up too much of your load space up.

    Cheers, Dennis!

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