e36 M3.....s/c'd......stupid as a track day car?

**jrkoupe** · 01-13-2017, 01:45 PM

so looking hard to get another track day car...not w2w.

often see nice s/c'd e36 m cars but I usually just pass them by as s/c ing scares me for temps, reliability etc etc..

I consider an s50/52 to be a soild solid track engine if up to snuff w/ the usual love.....but s/c?....

what say you?

who tracks one?

thnx

- - - Updated - - -

jus found this....ok, no SC for me...done here..lol

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-Track-E36-M3s

**aeronaut** · 01-13-2017, 02:03 PM

No personal experience with a FI'd E36, but, I followed a turbo'd E36 M3 around on a track day. I'd guess his raw times were 2-3 sec or so faster than me, all from the extra HP.

Stopped by in the pits to chat, and he currently had a turbo, but previously had gone through the s/c, engine build, turbo evolution. I forgot his exact cost, but with the engine build he had (rods, pistons, etc) he had a TON of money in the car. He had blown one engine and was having consistent problems with overheating, etc. He had paid a local performance shop to do the work, so it wasn't exactly a backyard effort.

He obviously enjoyed his hobby of HPDE and engine building. But I was quickly convinced that for me, it wasn't worth the cost & effort to get to a reliable FI'd E36 for HPDE.

Doesn't' really answer your question of buying an already SC'd car, but maybe useful info.

**jrkoupe** · 01-13-2017, 03:12 PM

it is useful info....

but it now seems clear , that to have a reliable track day car Im gonna say not to a sc one...

i tracked an s50/e30 for years....and besides a headgasket seep the engine was a real trooper........as we all know

**TXBDan** · 01-13-2017, 04:01 PM

Agreed. Unless the purpose is specifically to tinker and spend money (which is perfectly fine), there's really no reason for a track day car. No HPDE Championship/trophy/trophy girls/F1 talent scouts/etc. A stock motor is so much more reliable and so much cheaper. If you want to be faster, spend money on tires.

**jrkoupe** · 01-13-2017, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by TXBDan

Agreed. Unless the purpose is specifically to tinker and spend money (which is perfectly fine), there's really no reason for a track day car. No HPDE Championship/trophy/trophy girls/F1 talent scouts/etc. A stock motor is so much more reliable and so much cheaper. If you want to be faster, spend money on tires.

agreed yup

**olemiss540** · 01-13-2017, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by TXBDan

Agreed. Unless the purpose is specifically to tinker and spend money (which is perfectly fine), there's really no reason for a track day car. No HPDE Championship/trophy/trophy girls/F1 talent scouts/etc. A stock motor is so much more reliable and so much cheaper. If you want to be faster, spend money on tires.

Whhaaaa? They don't give out a trophy at the HPDE events you attend? Then why even go?

OP, went through this progression over the last 7 years. DO NOT DO IT. I went from stock to 330hp to 425hp and ended up back stock. Enjoy the he'll out of being on track and no longer sit on the sidelines. Someone will ALWAYS have more power, and those are the most fun to pass!

It's about car control. That is where the fun is! HP adders tend to be the way to pass time between events but ends up being counter productive.

**Haifisch M3** · 01-13-2017, 07:32 PM

not an E36 but E46SC
this guy put down a 7:25 at the ring and has been running this car for a while now

**chikinhed** · 01-13-2017, 08:10 PM

I have run my e36 M3 at track days SCed and turbo'd. With the turbo, I turn the boost down to about 580 whp for track days to give me a bit more safety margin with all the heat.

With a SC or turbo your cooling system has to be dialled in to control the heat.

With the extra power, you will need better brakes to deal with the extra speed between corners. The track I go to is very technical and brutal on brakes. It's a 130 mph front straight into a hair pin and not really any time for the brakes to cool.

Slow is more affordable, as always. The tire suggestion is probably the best suggestion from a financial point of view but we wouldn't even be playing with cars if that was our main goal.

For what it's worth, I get pleasure out of pulling out from behind of a GT3RS and blasting past him between corners in my old daily driver e36.

**pbonsalb** · 01-14-2017, 09:00 AM

The one to delete first from the list of options is the non intercooled stage 1 supercharger. Heat soak on the track can negate any power gains. For a track car, I'd probably get the car sorted out first and add power later if I felt it was something I would enjoy and could afford. For a street car, I would definitely add power -- as much as I could afford.

**Jcbe34** · 01-14-2017, 10:38 AM

Home built FI track cars and in some cases OEM too, are just not as reliable as NA track cars, period... And there will always be "that guy" with a stock motor that's quicker than you, I'm all about working towards being "that guy" with as few failure points as possible.

**Haifisch M3** · 01-14-2017, 01:18 PM

FI at the track is OK as long as these items are addressed:

1) cooling system upgrade_ install large capacity radiator
2) cooling system upgrade_ add oil cooler, it also increases oil capacity
3) cooling system upgrade_ additional air intake into enginebay + hood louvers to evacuate hot air
4) cooling system upgrade _ ducting to keep air from evading the radiator
4) headgasket , ditch the mls and go cutring

as was mentioned intercooler is a must

and did I mention cooling system?

The guy taking his FI car to the drag strip does not have to worry about that..he has to worry about snapping driveshafts etc

**GG Emerican** · 01-14-2017, 03:22 PM

I would honestly just swap an LS into it and call it a day. Your going to get around the same power from a FI/SC S50/S52 (even add a mild cam or do some work to the LS) and they have been proven to be reliable and fast. At the end you're likely going to be around the same price and can find parts for Ls engines relatively easy.

Unless you are set on staying with a BMW motor.

Just my 2 cents

**Emre** · 01-14-2017, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by GG Emerican

I would honestly just swap an LS into it and call it a day.

I was going to say the same thing. For the money, you can't beat an LS or S54 swap. Doesn't make sense to spend any money building up an S50 these days.

Originally Posted by GG Emerican

Unless you are set on staying with a BMW motor.

The only way I'd go with FI is if it meant smaller/lighter engine. Let's say you could build a turbo M42 stroker and squeeze out about the same power as an S54. The engine would be smaller, lighter, and sit further back in the chassis. Could be worth it, I guess.

**Jab31169** · 01-14-2017, 08:42 PM

A car is as reliable as it is treated and the quality of the build is a major factor. I've been running my twin screw now for 3 years as my track car and minus some spark plugs it's been great. I'm sure one day I will have to change a head gasket but shoot...that's fine. Nothing like eating up e92's and watching them shake there heads when you walk past them on the straights. My car currently has 199,000 miles on the chassis and bottom end. 20k of that has been twin screwed.

**GG Emerican** · 01-16-2017, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Jab31169

A car is as reliable as it is treated and the quality of the build is a major factor. I've been running my twin screw now for 3 years as my track car and minus some spark plugs it's been great. I'm sure one day I will have to change a head gasket but shoot...that's fine. Nothing like eating up e92's and watching them shake there heads when you walk past them on the straights. My car currently has 199,000 miles on the chassis and bottom end. 20k of that has been twin screwed.

Is it aftercooled? Heat soak is a huge issue for the twin screws as Temps can get very high.

Would love to run this kind of setup on my S52 but the fact the kit costs $8k is just ridiculous.

I had one on my old 07 civic si and that thing screamed! Whole setup with injectors, aftercooler, larger inlet/TB was only around $3000.

To the OP, it ultimately depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. Like mentioned, with the right amount of $$ anything can be reliable. But if you're not wanting to put a lot into it then I feel a turbo/SC track setup is only asking for trouble and not worth it. Plenty of people run the stock motor (maybe long tube headers, 3.5" Maf, intake, etc) and are very competitive on the track.

**Jab31169** · 01-17-2017, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by GG Emerican

Is it aftercooled? Heat soak is a huge issue for the twin screws as Temps can get very high.

Would love to run this kind of setup on my S52 but the fact the kit costs $8k is just ridiculous.

I had one on my old 07 civic si and that thing screamed! Whole setup with injectors, aftercooler, larger inlet/TB was only around $3000.

To the OP, it ultimately depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. Like mentioned, with the right amount of $$ anything can be reliable. But if you're not wanting to put a lot into it then I feel a turbo/SC track setup is only asking for trouble and not worth it. Plenty of people run the stock motor (maybe long tube headers, 3.5" Maf, intake, etc) and are very competitive on the track.

You wont find a kit for sale anymore, they are not in production and the people who have them are hanging on to them. Mine came with the car when I bought it. Yes, most of the twin screw setups came aftercooled (ESS, Active). I run an Active kit on mine.

**chikinhed** · 01-19-2017, 02:28 AM

This will give you an idea of what you are dealing with as far as a built high revving NA engine vs a centrifugal supercharged engine vs a turbo engine. The NA engine is a buddy of mines, the SC'd and turbo'd are mine. I have tracked the car with both set ups. In the turbo'd version you would barely have enough time to identify what the NA powered car was as you were passing it.

**boostedinaz** · 01-22-2017, 05:48 PM

Forced induction on a race car generally doesn't make sense. We had a customer we built an E46 M3 for and he already had the car supercharged. Once we got the car finished he had all kids of cooling issues, charge temp issues, etc.. It's no fun tinkering when you could be out racing instead. After 2-3 event he had us pull the super charger and he enjoyed the car much much more.

**Haifisch M3** · 01-22-2017, 06:29 PM

This guy has posted here before, here is his latest upload ...smoking the ring at 7:06...

Another onboard video in the ESS Supercharged BMW M3.
This one is a 7:06 BTG lap around Nürburgring Nordschleife.
Driver is as usual Inge Hansesætre

**dcvee** · 02-01-2017, 07:14 AM

I ran a turbo 95M3 for 3 years, 18k road miles. Probably around 20-25 track days. WGI, SP, MidO, VIR, etc etc. Missed the back half of a Sunday at WGI after smoking a clutch....only issue I ever had and I probably could have finished that day but I needed to drive the car home too. I would turn the boost down to 10psi on track which was around 400whp. Its all in build quality. Sure, more parts equals more risk. But the issue with FI is not FI in of itself, it's the fact that it's expensive and folks cut corners. Another issue is boost is like crack...folks can't keep it at a reasonable level. 400whp on 255 RA1's will take the hides off if you are not judicial with the throttle.

In the process of building another....should be finished by late spring/early summer. I'll have 12k in it track-ready.
Don

**olemiss540** · 02-01-2017, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by dcvee

I ran a turbo 95M3 for 3 years, 18k road miles. Probably around 20-25 track days. WGI, SP, MidO, VIR, etc etc. Missed the back half of a Sunday at WGI after smoking a clutch....only issue I ever had and I probably could have finished that day but I needed to drive the car home too. I would turn the boost down to 10psi on track which was around 400whp. Its all in build quality. Sure, more parts equals more risk. But the issue with FI is not FI in of itself, it's the fact that it's expensive and folks cut corners. Another issue is boost is like crack...folks can't keep it at a reasonable level. 400whp on 255 RA1's will take the hides off if you are not judicial with the throttle.

In the process of building another....should be finished by late spring/early summer. I'll have 12k in it track-ready.
Don

But the question is how much would you charge the OP to build his reliable turbo track ready M3? If the OP was Don, then he wouldn't be posting this thread in the first place.....

I think the initial assumption is that the OP is ill prepared to jump head first into a track ready reliable turbo setup, and it takes quite a few trials and tribulations (or $$$) to build up the experience you are working with. Hope this doesn't come off snarky but it is a bit in jest.

**GG Emerican** · 02-01-2017, 08:57 PM

Obviously it's a little different application (drift car where lower power is important) but cool video none the less! None sure if this would be beneficial on a road racing car?

https://youtu.be/bjRsIVlJ0pw?t=1s

**Emre** · 02-01-2017, 09:52 PM

Outside of drag racing, I don't believe there's any class in which nitrous is legal. Never heard of anyone using it on a road course.

**dcvee** · 02-10-2017, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by olemiss540

But the question is how much would you charge the OP to build his reliable turbo track ready M3? If the OP was Don, then he wouldn't be posting this thread in the first place.....

I think the initial assumption is that the OP is ill prepared to jump head first into a track ready reliable turbo setup, and it takes quite a few trials and tribulations (or $$$) to build up the experience you are working with. Hope this doesn't come off snarky but it is a bit in jest.

OP can contact me if he'd like a quote:-) I didn't see his remark of a budget question or how well prepared he was. Sure, it's going to be more money...who would think you'd double your HP and keep the same reliability for free? I'm just saying it can be done without trials and tribulations. 10 years ago, different answer.
Don

**jrkoupe** · 02-10-2017, 11:07 AM

OP was asking how "smart" it was to choose a sc car to track for track days.....

sure it can be done $$$$$...but overall it seems not the wisest choice if HP is not your ultimate goal.

The OP has moved on from considering a FI/SC track day car....... it is safe to assume MOST, not all , such built cars have not been done so well.

but the OP has learned alot here on this thread........

he didnt want to have a car built.