What is this Panjo garbage?

[TGreene]

Panjo has an entire team of people handling ideas and requests. They also have an entire team of people for help and transaction support. That is a huge bonus for us as many of us do this as a hobby. It is not a business for us (or we would have sold it out to a business a long time ago).

That's a lot of overhead going to things I never needed in my ten years of actively using the classifieds here. The community does a good job of identifying and weeding out undesirables. Why pay somebody else to manage what doesn't need managing?

You say user feedback pointed you in this direction but I'd wager that it is more of a deterrent when people get down to real figures.

- - - Updated - - -

eBay still charges final value fees too, and I think it's 10% for Automotive categories. I don't see any problem with Panjo doing it. It makes sense for all of the reasons Kevlar mentioned. I'd rather sell something online with a small-ish fee than have it never sell on an undertrafficked forum classified or Craigslist where you will be lowballed and need to work extra to sell your item. I've sold one thing on Panjo so far and I have no complaints.

Maybe, if there were no alternatives, and we all know that there are plenty, I would agree. With all of those alternatives though, Panjo is more likely to make be.c BECOME one of those under-trafficked sites.

[Kevlar]

That's a lot of overhead going to things I never needed in my ten years of actively using the classifieds here. The community does a good job of identifying and weeding out undesirables. Why pay somebody else to manage what doesn't need managing?

You say user feedback pointed you in this direction but I'd wager that it is more of a deterrent when people get down to real figures.

Trust me... somebody didn't sit down over night and try to come up with a way to make something that was free cost money. Plus, we would not have adopted it if we did not find value in it. Before Panjo was brought on, we used to spend way too much time just handling disputes and dealing with communications and trying to dispel people who thought we were in bed with the party who wronged them. Panjo brings an unbiased third party to resolve disputes which in of itself frees up our time to work on other things.

Then there are all the features that Panjo brings to the table for both buyers and sellers (this list is quite long and based on what people asked for). That being said, no software is perfect. The more you try to please everyone, the most impossible it is. So we understand it is impossible to make everyone happy.

[StarvinMarvin]

Then there are all the features that Panjo brings to the table for both buyers and sellers (this list is quite long and based on what people asked for). That being said, no software is perfect. The more you try to please everyone, the most impossible it is. So we understand it is impossible to make everyone happy.

I don't know that anyone actually asked for this. It seems there are more unhappy people now than there were before....

Was there a notice and comment period I missed somewhere? The gripe that I have, and I'm sure most other users do too, is this is a seemingly unilateral transition. Was there any trial period? Or did it just go from classified to Panjo, permanently. If not permanent, what is the length of the current deal?

I can appreciate the difficulty with trying to find perfection but the list of "features" is lipstick on a pig. New does not mean better.

For buyers, Panjo provides:
- email and phone-based customer support and dispute resolution.
- faster, 100% money-back refunds in the case a transaction goes awry.
- convenient 'buy now' button for payment compared to back-and-forth PMs.
- search, sort, and filter tools to find a desired item.
- email digests to keep members abreast of new listings.
- the ability to add items to a watchlist and monitor them.

1. PayPal has dispute resolution, and if payment is sent through them, why do we need Panjo's?
2. Paypal has a refund system too, and if payments are sent through them, what's the point?
3. Back and forth PMs are how people negotiate, but the cash flush users can rejoice, I guess.
4. This is exactly the same as the classified's sub forums and advanced search feature are for, right?
5. This only benefits the lucky 12 who manage to get selected for the followed community update, and that's if the Panjo account users haven't unsubscribed from the newsletter. What are the percentages of completed sales from these emails? Everything emailed from July 12 is still available...
6. How is this any different from the forum's subscription notification?

For sellers, Panjo provides:
- Promotion of marketplace through Facebook, YouTube, Google, and other outlets.
- email and phone-based customer support and dispute resolution.
- increased sell through rate via 'buy now' button.
- email blasts to subscribers to promote their listings.
- protection against fraudulent PayPal claims.

1. Proof of this? I've yet to see a Panjo ad on any of those listed sites.
2. See #1 above
3. What is a "sell through rate?" How does buy it now increase sales? If someone want to buy it, they will buy it regardless of a link.
4. See #5 above
5. See #1 & #2

Come up with some free version that doesn't take 9.8% out of the transaction whereby the sellers can decide if they want to pay for these "features."

Plus, we would not have adopted it if we did not find value in it.

This is the heart of it. What is the bf.c cut from the sales?

If you wont say exactly, at least admit bf.c is incentivized. To frame the issue rhetorically, why hire someone to manage the time consuming dispute resolution when you can contract it out to a third party and take a cut? It's not difficult to see the obvious business incentive there.

Last, correcting users that complain of listing fees by saying "listing on Panjo is free," is arguing semantics. It's quite obvious everyone here is referring to the 6.9% and 2.9% fees imposed on their listing.

[Kevlar]

I don't know that anyone actually asked for this. It seems there are more unhappy people now than there were before....

You may not have asked for Panjo specifically... but Panjo reached out to us years ago and asked if we wanted to trial their software. It was built with many of the features people were requesting beyond what the vB threads could offer. Unfortunately, it's been years, so I'll just list what I can remember.

* Image uploading
* ZIP codes
* Searching by price, by part, by location
* Dispute resolution ... not Paypals.
* Tech support
* Auto closing of ads after X days

Was there a notice and comment period I missed somewhere? The gripe that I have, and I'm sure most other users do too, is this is a seemingly unilateral transition. Was there any trial period?

There was. We started with 2-3 forums in various locations before it eventually was made official

If not permanent, what is the length of the current deal?

The length of the deal is until we believe they are going in a direction which no longer has the best interest of our community in mind.

I can appreciate the difficulty with trying to find perfection but the list of "features" is lipstick on a pig. New does not mean better.

1. PayPal has dispute resolution, and if payment is sent through them, why do we need Panjo's?
2. Paypal has a refund system too, and if payments are sent through them, what's the point?
3. Back and forth PMs are how people negotiate, but the cash flush users can rejoice, I guess.
4. This is exactly the same as the classified's sub forums and advanced search feature are for, right?
5. This only benefits the lucky 12 who manage to get selected for the followed community update, and that's if the Panjo account users haven't unsubscribed from the newsletter. What are the percentages of completed sales from these emails? Everything emailed from July 12 is still available...
6. How is this any different from the forum's subscription notification?

Much has changed since Panjo was introduced.

1. Proof of this? I've yet to see a Panjo ad on any of those listed sites.
2. See #1 above
3. What is a "sell through rate?" How does buy it now increase sales? If someone want to buy it, they will buy it regardless of a link.
4. See #5 above
5. See #1 & #2

1. Ads are run... I've seen them occasionally. Plus let's not forget that Panjo is sponsoring an E36 M3 giveaway too.
3. They give me graphs... I don't have one handy. I specifically watched them when they started a) moving the content to their own site and b) started charging a fee to cover costs. No impact was seen. Or they doctored the charts, I'm betting the prior not the latter.

Come up with some free version that doesn't take 9.8% out of the transaction whereby the sellers can decide if they want to pay for these "features."

Buyer/Seller can opt to handle the transaction outside of Panjo. There is only a transaction fee if they opt to use Panjo's features. If they don't it is free to list your items for sale on Panjo and for people to browse. There is only a fee if both parties utilize Panjo's buyer/seller funds transfer.

This is the heart of it. What is the bf.c cut from the sales?

If you wont say exactly, at least admit bf.c is incentivized. To frame the issue rhetorically, why hire someone to manage the time consuming dispute resolution when you can contract it out to a third party and take a cut? It's not difficult to see the obvious business incentive there.

0%... nothing, nada, nien. It does however save us considerable amount of time dealing with transactions that go sideways or tech support to add/edit/close out items that were sold.

Last, correcting users that complain of listing fees by saying "listing on Panjo is free," is arguing semantics. It's quite obvious everyone here is referring to the 6.9% and 2.9% fees imposed on their listing.

Yes... those fees do suck, but the people that offer those services have to pay their bills and keep their lights on. While we at BF.c do this for free because we like the hobby and the passion for cars. They have bills to pay and lets not forget that those fees are not just for staffing their tech support lines, but also paying transaction fees that they do need to cover costs on.

Plus let's remember. Users can easily circumvent the entire process by browsing the classified forums that exist. i.e., http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/fo...amp-Body-Parts

And if there is something you don't like, you can submit ideas to the Panjo team and they will work in implementing them. They roll out updates almost every month.

[StarvinMarvin]

Kevlar, Thank you for the reply and I appreciate the transparency.

[Kevlar]

Kevlar, Thank you for the reply and I appreciate the transparency.

No problem. This community is made for the users. We do everything we can to support the community as we do this for the fun of it (at least I do) because this forum allows me to interact with many people on levels that would otherwise not be available to me.

[SeanCollins]

It is still free to list on Panjo. Sellers can complete a sale for free too. Sellers may disintermediate (circumvent) Panjo. There is no requirement to process payment with Panjo. Panjo charges a 6.9% transaction fee when a buyer and seller opt into completing a transaction on Panjo. That fee goes into funding: server expenses, email server expenses, money-back guarantee, phone and email customer support, ongoing marketplace enhancements, promotional campaigns to promote the marketplace and member's listings.

For buyers, Panjo provides:
- email and phone-based customer support and dispute resolution.
- faster, 100% money-back refunds in the case a transaction goes awry.
- convenient 'buy now' button for payment compared to back-and-forth PMs.
- search, sort, and filter tools to find a desired item.
- email digests to keep members abreast of new listings.
- the ability to add items to a watchlist and monitor them.

For sellers, Panjo provides:
- Promotion of marketplace through Facebook, YouTube, Google, and other outlets.
- email and phone-based customer support and dispute resolution.
- increased sell through rate via 'buy now' button.
- email blasts to subscribers to promote their listings.
- protection against fraudulent PayPal claims.

just remove the stupid software, I have 2 nice e38's I want to part out, but I won;t deal with the hassle of panjo

[Kevlar]

I am happy to help members by adjusting the community to best serve your needs but I need more than you thinking its 'stupid' before I remove something. Constructive criticism helps get things done.

As I have said numerous times, their support team is happy to make adjustments based on user feedback.

Oh and there is no one forcing you to handle your transactions through Panjo you can list your items there and handle your transactions without their services.

Lastly putting your classified items in Panjo creates threads in our classified forums like you would do normally... So the threads are here for everyone to see.

Sent from my iPhone using BF.com

[Zxc4]

Is using panjo mandatory to post on the classifieds? If so, would it be possible to give the users an option to post traditionally?

[TGreene]

So is there a way to go around Panjo? I am cleaning out the garage and went to go post some things for sale and then was redirected to use Panjo when I went to create an ad. I am unwilling to use it.

[Kevlar]

So is there a way to go around Panjo? I am cleaning out the garage and went to go post some things for sale and then was redirected to use Panjo when I went to create an ad. I am unwilling to use it.

Posting the items for sale does require Panjo...but you can opt to handle the transactions outside of Panjo...but then you waive all of their protection policies.

[Slamdunkpro]

I tried to post my E38 750 whole parts car. Went through all the Panjo nonsense and it's still not in the forum. Any thoughts?

[Mike WW]

Do any of the people at either Panjo or Bimmerforums have any idea how refreshing it would be if they just came out and said,

This is a business not a charity. Unless we're going to pass the hat, we need income, which Bimmerforums gets from ads and Panjo gets from fees it charges on sales.

Instead they use flowery language about contribution when what they really mean is a fee or charge. Cut the BS, tell people what is happening and why and I bet they'd be if not supporting of it, at least a lot more accepting of it. Obfuscate it intentionally and they're going to give you heat about it as they have. Of course the irony is there's hardly anything there and there's no search function I could find.

Looks like a lose-lose-lose to me, Forum members lose because there's no longer a decent F/S forum, Panjo loses because there's nothing there to collect fees off of, let alone contributions, and BFC loses because they aren't getting anything from Panjo because Panjo isn't getting anything to give BFC a cut of. Wow, how'd they do that?

[NY98M3]

Been on these forums since 2002, Panjo is the worst thing that has ever happened here. It makes it super annoying to sell parts. I have not sold anything on the Panjo site.

[NomadHooker]

Is it because of Panjo that the parts listings get mixed into the cars for sale sections? I find I don't bother looking in the cars for sale sections anymore because most of the listings are parts. It really makes it hard to find what I'm interested in. Why bother with a separate section if the ads just get combined anyway?

[M3C]

It is definitely not the same since Panjo kicked in and it ruined the great balance we had in this forum.
If the option to post FS here is still available I don't think there will be anyone switching to Panjo, so why not leave members to decide where to post instead of forcing them to use Panjo that is a pain and not practical.

[schatzy62]

First time here to look to see if there are parts someone is selling for my car. Well Panjo is just the worst. Either no one is selling any parts for an E39 or Panjo does not know the difference between a motorcycle and a car. All the listings when searching Panjo of E39 parts show up as ebay listings for everything but an E39.

Guess I will have to go to the regular forums and post a request for anyone to get in touch if they have E39 wagon parts they are looking to part with.

Or maybe i will just go use another forum where they have a decent classified section that does not use Panjo.

[abradic]

Get rid of this Panjo garbage. Leave it as an option and let us choose how we want to list something for sale. You want to use Panjo, use it. You don't, list like it always was. Panjo gives you some protections, but paypal covers many of those. Panjo is more of a ripoff and will only inflate prices on there by 7-10%. All we're doing is siphoning money of ours here to fund Panjo. That is in essence what they want, a piece of our action and they get it by taking it out of the sellers pocket, or the buyers pocket when things are listed 7-10% higher. It sucks right now.

[TGreene]

Get rid of this Panjo garbage. Leave it as an option and let us choose how we want to list something for sale. You want to use Panjo, use it. You don't, list like it always was. Panjo gives you some protections, but paypal covers many of those. Panjo is more of a ripoff and will only inflate prices on there by 7-10%. All we're doing is siphoning money of ours here to fund Panjo. That is in essence what they want, a piece of our action and they get it by taking it of the sellers pocket, or the buyers pocket when things are listed 7-10% higher. It sucks right now.

Yeah, it's obviously a bad system. Damage is already done. For every one person that is frustrated enough to search for this thread to post about it, how many just decide not to use the system and go elsewhere? I'm not going to pay a tax to somebody to sell used car parts here if I can just avoid it and use other means.

[huligan]

Is using panjo mandatory to post on the classifieds? If so, would it be possible to give the users an option to post traditionally?

any chance there will ever been an "option" or will it remain mandatory ?

[JPJ]

Yeah, it's obviously a bad system. Damage is already done. For every one person that is frustrated enough to search for this thread to post about it, how many just decide not to use the system and go elsewhere?

For years I had generally checked the Race Car and Track Parts section daily. Before Panjo it averaged around 5 posts a day. Now it's only 1 per day at best. So obviously this has not been an improvement...

[angeleye540i]

The regional subs are your best bet... Panjo sucks... Altho I found a sweet ALP system on there, who happened to be a BFC member

[5speed300]

Classifieds here are basically un-usable now. Forgetting about any fee, the organization has been completely lost. Ex. I can't look in the 3 series cars for sale section without 80% of the listings being about random individual shifters, wheels, parts etc.

Please at least fix the organization. Far too frustrating to use now.

[angeleye540i]

Classifieds here are basically un-usable now. Forgetting about any fee, the organization has been completely lost. Ex. I can't look in the 3 series cars for sale section without 80% of the listings being about random individual shifters, wheels, parts etc. Please at least fix the organization. Far too frustrating to use now.

for sure... Might as well use eBay or CL, but then your back to god knows what your getting... BFC members are gonna be much better people to buy stuff from... On the e39 forums, we have an off topic thread, called "eBay, Craig's List, etc." Or something like that, where people link CL and eBay or BAT adds to the thread, which can be done anywhere, it's a good way to share your own, or your friends listings to other enthusiasts

[Mike WW]

Guys, you're talking to yourselves here. They (BFC ownership) made the decision to go to Panko for them, not for us. They don't care if you like it or not, it's their ball and if you want to play it's with their ball and with their rules. They regard peoples dissatisfaction with it as irritation, not input. It's just a shame they don't have the gonads to come out and say so.