No More BMWs for Me...Ever!

[webwiz]

That's it, I'm totally done with BMW. If someone can give me a compelling reason to ever consider them again, I'd be interested in hearing it, but it would take an awful lot of convincing.

I have a 2003 330i. Based on my experience with this vehicle and others I've owned (VW and Toyota), it seems that BMW is not capable of engineering and building a car that reliably lasts more than about 5 years. I was fine until then. Other than tires and oil changes, the 330i required no maintenance.

Then it began its transition from the "ultimate driving machine" to the "ultimate piece of crap and money sponge". All sorts of things started breaking and needing repair or replacement - wheels, rotors and brake pads, tire pressure sensors, exhaust system components, power steering pump, radiator, air intake system components, etc. There were little things, too, like plastic window switches that the dealer gleefully charged something like $27 for (this was a single piece of plastic with no metal or moving parts).

When warning lights came on or I noticed strange performance, the dealer was happy to charge a diagnostic fee. When I started having troubles, the fee was around $89. Today, during my latest misadventure, I noticed it's now $150. Unlike many shops I've taken previous cars to, and even other dealers, BMW does *NOT* apply the diagnostic charge to the cost of any repairs that have to be made.

Oh, and the cost of repairs! BMW's labor rate is exhorbitant and their parts appear to be marked up 100-200% or more. And repairs take much longer than they used to. It used to be that I could drop off the car first thing in the morning, and get a call from the service advisor by mid-afternoon telling me the car is ready. Now, it's a minimum of 2 days and often much longer. Loaner cars are not always available and the dealership doesn't seem to care.

I'm convinced now that BMW sells its cars at break-even (or maybe even at a loss) knowing the bulk of its profits come from service. Some things can, of course, be done by the local mechanic. But recall service (yes, I know *that's* covered) and other things are often only possible at the dealer due to parts availability or ability to diagnose and fix certain things.

Granted, my 330 is now 12 years old. But I got 10-12 years from a VW and a Toyota with only minor and less-expensive repairs required. I'm really surprised that a "high-quality" brand like BMW has a product that started falling apart after only about 5 years.

So, I'm clearly in the market for a new car. I will consider most brands, foreign and domestic. I will look for reliability, longevity, customer satisfaction, and cost of repairs. I'm sure there are plenty of BMW fanboys in these forums (no disrespect intended). I would really love to hear reasons why BMW is still a good brand and still makes high-quality vehicles.

Thanks.

[Charlie]

If you're taking a 12 year old car to the dealership every time you see a check engine light, then yes, you're not going to have a very good time. Shopping around to another dealership or seeking out a decent independent shop is what most people with a car older than a decade would tend to do.

Brake pads and rotors are maintenance items. You use them up, you replace them. Frankly, in terms of consumables I haven't found BMW to be any worse than any honda, mazda or toyota product in that regard. You take it to a dealer and pay dealer labor rates and parts costs, you're going to have a bad time. You order them off the internet like everyone else in the year 2015, crack open a beer or three on the weekend and replace the pads yourself, and it's a lot less painful. BMWs are some of the easiest cars I've ever dealt with in terms of brake service. TPMS sensors are powered by a battery. Batteries tend to have a limited life span, at 12 years, one would probably expect to have to replace some of those components. Same with rubber and plastic cooling system components. Granted, BMW's reputation with cooling system components is dreadful, and rightfully deserved, but again, expecting 100+k miles and 12 years out of components like that is foolish.

Frankly, if you were dropping a Honda Accord off at the dealer for every minor maintenance issue you needed, your experiences would be the same.

[justinca540i]

Maybe you might want to look at other dealerships or find a trustable Independent BMW shop. Or break out the wrenches and do a little DIY and save hundreds. You might want to invest in an OBC scanner they cost anywhere from $30-150. This will allow you to diagnose your own error messages.

If you are planning on buying new you get the five year warranty. Or maybe consider leasing, you get the benefit of a new BMW and never need to pay for a repair.

[BimmerBreaker]

There were little things, too, like plastic window switches that the dealer gleefully charged something like $27 for (this was a single piece of plastic with no metal or moving parts).

You know they are plastic only on the part you touch right? It is an electronic switch... there are electronics inside it... lol...


Sounds like you belong in a Hyundai I don't know why anyone would take a 12 year old BMW to the dealership for minor maintenance.

[xinfinity]

No offense, but you sound like a person who is not mechanically minded who expects an older car to have as much maintenance costs as a 1-2 year old car. Get a lease or something because you re making me sick.

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also, a 2003 is much older than 5 years old LOL

[e30jrosso]

These threads pop up from disgruntled owners who bought a BMW expecting it to be totally maintenance free. You seldom see a thread started by someone who enjoys their BMW and is a good caretaker of the car saying "Hey I love this car and brand and I find them easy to work on and parts are reasonable and I know things will break because its a 12 year old car but I love it anyway!"

OP, these cars are engineered to last a long time with proper care. Some people abuse these cars and some straight up neglect them and then bitch when things start breaking. If you can't find a good indy shop or BMW mechanic that DOESN'T work at the BMW dealership then nobody can help you. I don't turn my own wrenches for a number of reasons and I own two BMW's and neither is killing me with maintenance or costs. If something breaks I take care of it, I prioritize what repairs are urgent and what can wait and I think most owners do this as well.

[Rudolph320i]

the dealer is charging you a labor rate, not bmw. Also, they make the call on whether or not your diagnostic fee goes toward the repair or not. Find a good independent shop and you will be set. Also, brake pads need to be replaced on every car......

[montaillou]

I think everyone's missing the point here. OP, please tell us about these other cars you've owned that have never-wear brake pads!

[sullypants1]

Other than tires and oil changes, the 330i required no maintenance.

Der's your probbem righ't der.

[webwiz]

You know they are plastic only on the part you touch right? It is an electronic switch... there are electronics inside it... lol...


Sounds like you belong in a Hyundai I don't know why anyone would take a 12 year old BMW to the dealership for minor maintenance.

No, I'm not talking about the actual switch, just the plastic part of it. I saw the replacement part in a bag, all by itself, and it was just a piece of molded plastic. And I'm not taking the car to the dealership for "minor maintenance". I'm taking it there because the check engine or oil pressure light came on. In the latter case, my OBD II reader (yes, I have one) showed no codes. In the former case, it just showed that the engine was running lean. Other than knowing I probably had a vacuum leak somewhere, I wasn't in a position to diagnose or fix it.

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No offense, but you sound like a person who is not mechanically minded who expects an older car to have as much maintenance costs as a 1-2 year old car. Get a lease or something because you re making me sick.

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also, a 2003 is much older than 5 years old LOL

I'm actually quite mechanically minded - I replaced the power steering pump myself after the dealer said it would be north of $600 for him to do it. I didn't say that my 2003 car is 5 years old. I said that non-trivial problems started at 5 years (2008). I would have expected a higher end car like a BMW to go at least 7-8 years before having such problems.

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I think everyone's missing the point here. OP, please tell us about these other cars you've owned that have never-wear brake pads!

I think that some responders did not read my original post carefully or perhaps I misspoke. I never said that other cars didn't require brake pads or other maintenance work. What I said is that my other cars (a VW and a Toyota) got to 10 years with fewer and/or less costly repairs. I certainly replaced brake pads, rotors, timing belts, exhaust system components, etc. on my other cars. I just didn't have to do it as soon as I did on my BMW, and the cost of the repairs were much less. I actually take very good care of my vehicles - I'm religious about changing the oil, checking tire pressure, rotating tires, maintaining fluid levels, etc. And I drive carefully, too - no jackrabbit starts or hard braking. I'm simply disappointed in the build quality and longevity of my car. Maybe I just got one built at 4 PM on a Friday when the workers were thinking more about their weekend.

[SpeedsterBek]

Sounds like the OP needs to get a Prius. Brakes last forever on those cars and you get a long warranty on hybrid parts. Trouble free driving for years, costs peanuts to own and it's a hoot to drive (last part isn't true).

Old German or British cars isn't worth owning if you don't know how to make some of the repairs. It's just the way it is, and it's been this way for a quite some time.

Accountants usually determine what goes out the door to the public, so you won't see parts getting over engineered and ending up costing more than necessary. From what I've read, advanced life expectancy analysis of most components allows manufacturers to build cars to last predetermined period, aka up until the warranty expires. Besides, each car gets its parts from 200+ sources, and usually the cheapest supplier wins the contract.

I agree that Toyota is reliable, but then it has to be, since that's the only redeeming feature of the brand and their reputation is build on reliability.

However, the way the Toyota gets there is by holding on to their existing drivetrains for so long (10+ years instead of 5-6 years like most other competitors). New model from a Toyota means same car as last year, but slightly tweaked drivetrain and chassis with a different body panels. Same with Lexus.
They severely lack behind in innovation. I'm sure they make constant impovements on their existing stuff all the time, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't invest in new ideas.

[webwiz]

Der's your probbem righ't der.

OK, I should have said "repairs" and not "maintenance". I certainly did all the preventative maintenance prescribed by BMW in the first 5 years (and beyond). It's the *repairs* earlier than I would have expected that disappointed me.

Tell me, fellow BMW owners, how much does it cost you (on average) every year to repair your vehicle? (I'm not talking about oil changes and other maintenance, but rather stuff you have to fix because something broke.) I'd be especially interested in hearing from people with cars 8, 10, 12, or more years old.

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Sounds like the OP needs to get a Prius. Brakes last forever on those cars and you get a long warranty on hybrid parts. Trouble free driving for years, costs peanuts to own and it's a hoot to drive (last part isn't true).

Old German or British cars isn't worth owning if you don't know how to make some of the repairs. It's just the way it is, and it's been this way for a quite some time.

Accountants usually determine what goes out the door to the public, so you won't see parts getting over engineered and ending up costing more than necessary. From what I've read, advanced life expectancy analysis of most components allows manufacturers to build cars to last predetermined period, aka up until the warranty expires. Besides, each car gets its parts from 200+ sources, and usually the cheapest supplier wins the contract.

I agree that Toyota is reliable, but then it has to be, since that's the only redeeming feature of the brand and their reputation is build on reliability.

However, the way the Toyota gets there is by holding on to their existing drivetrains for so long (10+ years instead of 5-6 years like most other competitors). New model from a Toyota means same car as last year, but slightly tweaked drivetrain and chassis with a different body panels. Same with Lexus.
They severely lack behind in innovation. I'm sure they make constant impovements on their existing stuff all the time, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't invest in new ideas.

Ironic you would mention the Prius. My wife and I actually looked at one this weekend as a replacement for her car. Sure, it's not as fun to drive as the BMW, and its acceleration is lacking. But, man o man, will it be cheaper and easier to maintain. And the mileage is at least 4 times what I'm getting on my Bimmer. I'll probably end up replacing my car with an SUV, but it won't be one that comes from Germany since apparently you have to also have to become your own mechanic.

I wouldn't knock reliability as the only redeeming feature of a brand. That's a pretty good one to have, even if you can have only one. What's BMW's redeeming feature? Innovation? Sure, maybe. I know they've done a lot with adaptive steering, braking systems, lighting, and other things. But generally these innovative features only appear in the top-end models and take years to trickle down to the more affordable ones.

Frankly, I'm considering a 3 year lease on a new car. I figure by the time that's up, the "consumer grade" Tesla will be available. From what I hear, it will be price-competitive with the entry level BMWs. With an electric motor and way fewer moving parts, maintenance and repair costs should be much lower than a BMW.

[tmoeller]

so you have an 12 year old 5 year old car, you do no routine maintenance yourself, somehow you've managed to do something to necessitate the purchase of wheels, you paid someone to put something in your car that you yourself admit is a piece of plastic with no moving parts, and you're paying a dealer to do work on a car that is out of warranty. Every single thing on your list could be remedied by doing some work yourself, finding a decent garage, and telling me how you managed to need new wheels with that somehow being BMW's fault.

oh, and to answer your question....my BMW never needed repair. Other than normal wear and tear items, a window lift switch, and pixel repair (I took the unit out and had it fixed. It cost me 80 dollars and I had the capacitor replaced while he was in there) it never needed anything. It was a 98 M3, and I had it for many, many years.

[speedyguy95]

I have a 02 325xi that had several problems but I was expecting that because it over 10 years old. I had to replace the cooling system,front control arms,ball joints,trailing arm bushings,4 springs, 2 CV joints,ccv system, mass airflow sensor, rear shock absorbers, 2 window regulars and motors, all 4 brakes and rotors, and tires in the last year. Granted I did all the work myself and I work at Lincoln dealership as a tech but anyway I'm not complaining. I probably spent about 3 grand but I won't have to invest much for awhile now that I did all that so theoretically it should give me some trouble free miles. Its about to hit 150k on the odometer

[Luftwaffe1O1]

First tpms, tires, brakes, etc are all wear items. ... so you listing them in there is kind of pointless unless to just fluff up the costs.

Secondly, if you think non bmws are going to be cheap to maintain you are in for a nice awakening. Might I suggest a 2006 Acura TL automatic.

Seriously all cars have lots of problems, the concept that Japanese econoboxes only need oil and filters replaced for 200k miles is crap. It's just that these owners don't do anything and let the car run into the ground. Is a bmw going to be more expensive to maintain than a hyundai? Yes... what did you expect... a 330 new was in the 40k range decently loaded out. A hyundai accent was in the 15k range... you expect a luxury performance car to be the same upkeep as a car that costs 1/3 the price?

You also took it to the dealer... I mean nothing screams bend me over without lube like the $tealership. Out of warranty you are much better off finding a good mechanic or doing as much yourself as you can. I've owned BMWs for well over 11 years. Had an e36 n3, e30 325, my z3 and an m235i, the z3 is currently sitting at 185k miles, sure it needed love, but mainly preventive things, I could have easily driven this car to this mileage with it starting to sag and feel awful, but then where is the fun in that.

But feel free to switch to another brand and enjoy the carefree ownership...

[RJLupin]

I agree with OP. BMWs are pieces of junk. Wreck it and claim insurance.

[ELVA164]

I agree with OP. BMWs are pieces of junk. Wreck it and claim insurance.

I agree. Buy a Scion and use the difference to trick it out with a sweet bodykit and a dual back up light mod.

[KnucklE30Buster]

Worked as a tech for BMW and now for Honda. They'll both fall apart eventually.

You're right though... 2003 330i was actually the worst car made ever. I'll take it off your hands for, let's say, $1000 even and you"ll never have to worry about it again.

[tmoeller]

Worked as a tech for BMW and now for Honda. They'll both fall apart eventually.

You're right though... 2003 330i was actually the worst car made ever. I'll take it off your hands for, let's say, $1000 even and you"ll never have to worry about it again.

something tells me there is a bit of untruth in this post

[KnucklE30Buster]

nahhhhh.

On a serious note, e46's were among my favorites to work on. Pretty straightforward to diagnose and repair. I thought so anyway. Probably gonna be looking for one myself in the next year or so.

[EurOnly]

Funny, I could say the same thing about my B6 Audi A4.
Biggest piece of shit ever, will never buy another VW/Audi.
Every week it's another goddamn sensor or electrical issue that is a bitch to track down.

Luckily my 330 has been totally trouble free not counting regular maintenance.

[Rudolph320i]

I have a 1991 325i, shes an old girl and Im the 17th owner. Car was manual swapped along with an engine that no one knows the history of, odometer broke at 165k years before I owned it. So far the only thing that actually broke in my 3 years of ownership were a crank sensor, driveshaft support bearing, and a strut housing began to rust so needed replacement. Including purchase price I think Im into the car about 3500 bucks.

[ptarditi]

Personally if you spent $35-40K on this car you would have a brand new car, and warranty but you didn't, did you? Your car doesn't have tire pressure sensors, the TPMS system runs off the wheel speed sensors for the abs and speedo.

[webwiz]

Wow. Clearly a lot of BMW fanboys here. Also people lucky enough to do their own repairs and/or have some good independent mechanics in the area. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to trust myself with something like brake work, despite how easy it might be. And although I've looked, I haven't found anyone within a reasonable distance who feels capable of working on my car. I've gone to a local shop for some basic things, but have been told by them that certain things are better done at the dealer. Don't know why they'd turn away work like that, but I have to assume there's a reason. There's also the issue of OEM or at least OEM-compatible parts. Some shops told me I can't supply the parts myself; they have to buy them and mark them up.

It's great that you guys have had better luck with your cars than I have. I don't drive it hard and I don't neglect it. But stuff still happens. Sure, brake pads and such are normal, expected repairs. I totally get that. And I never said my other cars had no repair issues. Some people are taking my comparison to an unrealistic extreme I didn't even hint at.

I've had many computers over the past decades - Windows PCs and laptops, as well as Apples. You pay a premium to buy an Apple, just like you pay a premium for a BMW over, say, a Toyota. With the Apples, you're buying better engineering, better built quality, better longevity, and better value retention. And you know what? I've had much less trouble with Apples than with the lower-priced (but functional equivalent) PCs. I would not be surprised when my Windows machines needed a repair or upgrade 12 months after purchase (I'm a heavy user). But if that happened to an Apple, I would not be a happy camper.

I am not making an equivalence between my Toyota and my BMW. I paid almost twice as much for the Bimmer. But over their lifetimes, I probably paid four times as much for repairs for the BMW as I did for the Toyota. More stuff broke, and broker earlier, on the BMW than on the Toyota. If they were in the same class of vehicle, I would be somewhat upset. Since the BMW is supposed to be *better* (aren't German engineers and designers better than their Japanese counterparts?) the cost differential and frequency of repairs is what has me peeved. If Apples broke as often as Windows PCs, I think a lot of people would stop buying them.

I am realizing that I'm venting in a forum for an elite class of BMW owners, namely the ones who care enough to participate. I'd guess that 90% of owners aren't even aware there are forums like this. So almost by definition the people here are going to be DIY'ers, enthusiasts, fanboys (I mean that in the kindest sense), and others who *generally* are not going to find fault with the manufacturer.

I'm not a "disgruntled" owner as a previous poster said. I'm just disappointed. I had higher expectations from BMW, both the car itself and the way I'd be treated at the dealership. I never said my car was a "piece of" anything. I like my car. It's fun to drive. It looks sweet. I feel safer in it than in any other car I've been in. I just wish its long-term quality had held up better.

I will probably do a private sale in the next month or so. I'll disclose the known problems and try to get fair market value for the car. I'm sure some local fanboy will be thrilled to get it, work on it, enhance it, and drive it another 100,000 miles.

[Rudolph320i]

Lucky enough to do my own repairs, he says. I called it being broke and needing my car to run.