I see members swapping out 5 speed trannies for 6 speeds. How much of an advantage is this? At what cost?
You get an extra gear, which is overdriven. 1 - 5 are going to be the same ratios.
-Abel
- E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
- 2000 Z3: Many Mods.
- 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg
- 1999 S52 Estoril M Coupe
- 2014 328d Wagon, self-tuned, 270hp/430ft-lbs
- 2019 M2 Competition, self-tuned, 504whp
- 2016 Mini Cooper S
Right, so the advantage to a 6 speed is basically only relevant if you've changed your diff ratio and do a lot of highway driving in your car. If you keep the 5 speed and put a 3.73 or greater ratio diff in the car, you'll be up in the 4k+ revs at highway cruising speeds. The 6th gear is overdrive, so it'll bring that down a bit.
The cost is well in excess of $3k as you need the transmission, a shortened drive shaft, and a bunch of other parts.
With the right final drive and transmission selection, it really wakes the car up. I drove rabbi doom's 6 speed swapped S52 last month and was left totally speechless. IIRC he had a transmission out of an e46 ZHP and a 3.91 rear end.
A 6 speed gives more flexability when combined with other mods. It will never pay for itself in fuel savings.
/.randy
As I'm in the midst of doing this swap on my M3 (should be done this weekend) I can say I probably would not have done the 6 speed if I was only keeping the car for a few years, but figured I'd do something a little more interesting. $3K is about right unless you find a 6 speed for a real deal. A 5 speed can be found on the forums for 200 bucks. Plus I'm actually converting an Auto to 6 speed, so I have all those parts to come up with as well. Definitely won't pay for itself, but what the heck…
1995 Hellrot ///M3/2/6 ••• 1997 Hellrot Z3 2.8 Roadster
M3/Z3 parts I'm looking for: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...3-Random-parts
Love my 6 speed with stock 3.23 ratio. Did it myself. $3000 give or take. I got bored one day and figured out that I would need to go 108,000 miles in 6th gear to break even with gas savings.
1999 M Coupe Boston Green, Beige, H&R/Bilsteins, Underdrive Pulleys, Euro 6 speed, UUC SSK and Randy Forbes in the back
2002 2.5 Z3 roadster Oxford Green, auto, all stock
2013 Ram 3500 Crew Cab Dually 385 HP, 850 ft lbs torque at 1600 rpm, all stock and staying that way
2004 Mini Cooper Chili Red, daily driver, modified almost daily
My E36 has a 6 speed and it is great on the highway! The advantage is lower RPMs at higher speeds so highway cruising is more enjoyable. Pair it with a 3.73 or a 3.91 and the car will be LOADS of FUN(this will increase RPMs at any given speed).
If you use an E36 trans then you can retain the stock clutch etc. If you use an E46 trans then you need to switch over to the E46 clutch etc. You driveshaft will need to be shortened and balanaced. The shift linkage also needs shortening and boom, done!
All you need to know: http://www.eatsleeptinker.com/2013/0...-e368-m-coupe/
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If the 6 speed is truly a much smoother shifting trans than the 5 speed then for me it would be worth it,
its something I would consider in the future-----but I have never seen many conclusive opinions here that
it is truly much smoother.
I thought about it, and I was impressed by Wertless's conversion. But so many have had trouble with the swap, and the gains don't seem worth the effort compared to similarly priced mods. I agree it would require a diff swap as well--possibly to a 3:64--a 3:73 seems like you just loose 1st and end up with a 5 speed after all. No diff swap means you get an overdrive, but I don't drive on the highway enough to justify that. The car already goes faster than I will. On the other hand I'm running out of mods to do. For now I think I'll focus on developing a stage 2 for the VF SC. Maybe after that is done.
My run to ZFest was a 6sp with a 2.93. 80mph at 2500rpm. I'm now running a 3.46 and 6th is much more comfortable. But the other end suffered.
The 6sp Getrag is a bigger stronger clunkier box. It does NOT shift smoother. I tried and immediately removed a short shifter, and I'm considering going all the way to a 2.8 Z3 shifter to cut down on the effort. The 6sp ZF may be a better shifting box. I know Donnie was going to go that route.
/.randy
Most of the issues I have seen with a six speed conversion is that people are trying to do the swap on the cheap. "I found a box for $500" etc. People are getting damaged units or incorrect ones. The two boxes that go in smoothly are either the euro E-36 or US E-46 (NOT SMG) six speeds. Both these transmissions are well documented here for swaps. Other boxes may fit but you are going to be on your own to get everything to mesh correctly. Plan on $1500 for a good transmission. I got mine for $1800, it was rebuilt in Germany, updated with any new parts, shipped to the US and came with a 3 year, unlimited mile warranty. It is more like $2200 the last time I checked. It dropped in right the first time. I have had it out once since to change out the flywheel and clutch but that was no fault of the transmission. Just poor planning on my part.
I put put it this way, this mod is completely unnecessary. It's like a $4000 pair of wheels. Yes, they look awesome but don't expect them to pay for themselves. They won't and neither will the transmission. Those who have done it do it for the experience and to make the car just a little more customized and different.
Last edited by Wertles; 11-20-2014 at 09:48 AM.
1999 M Coupe Boston Green, Beige, H&R/Bilsteins, Underdrive Pulleys, Euro 6 speed, UUC SSK and Randy Forbes in the back
2002 2.5 Z3 roadster Oxford Green, auto, all stock
2013 Ram 3500 Crew Cab Dually 385 HP, 850 ft lbs torque at 1600 rpm, all stock and staying that way
2004 Mini Cooper Chili Red, daily driver, modified almost daily
-Abel
- E36 328is ~210-220whp: Lots of Mods.
- 2000 Z3: Many Mods.
- 2003 VW Jetta TDI Manual 47-50mpg
- 1999 S52 Estoril M Coupe
- 2014 328d Wagon, self-tuned, 270hp/430ft-lbs
- 2019 M2 Competition, self-tuned, 504whp
- 2016 Mini Cooper S
Z4 and 330 are ZF, M3 is Getrag. The E36 evo that is the source of conversion parts is a Getrag.
Last edited by rf900rkw; 11-20-2014 at 10:51 AM.
/.randy
I was under the impression E46 M3 boxes would NOT work? Is that not true - can we use E46 M3 transmissions with these cars?
I desparately need a 6 speed in whatever car ends up staying the DD. Tuning over 4K+ rpms at sustained highway speeds (Yeah we drive fast in the wild west) is anything but good for my wallet. What I really want is a trans that would put me at 2.5-3K @ 90mph.
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Sorry, I forgot to put M3 after the E-46. I was concentrating on making sure everyone knew the SMG wouldn't work. As Randy stated above, the euro E-36 and US E-46 M3 6 speeds were Getrag. The E-36 euro box uses our clutch, the US uses an E-46 M3 clutch. The friction surface diameters are the same but the spline size is larger on the US E-46 M3 box.
The Z-4 is a ZF transmission and I have only heard horror stories of trying to get one to work, I have no knowledge of one actually being completed. In fact, I don't recall any successful 6 speed swaps other than the above boxes I mentioned. I searched this and other forums for months and made multiple phone calls to others who had done the swaps in preparation for my swap. There is a lot of bad information out there.
I have no idea if you can get the other transmissions to work. I knew there was enough work just following others previous work. I had no interest in trying to reinvent the wheel or be a pioneer. There was aftermarket help for me from UUC as to get a shifter that would work with this transmission. I'm not sure anyone has figured out what parts you could use or would need to be made to get it to work properly. The shifter in my car looks stock but is in actuality a SSK for the Getrag. To get a stock throw with the 6 speed would actually put the shift knob higher than the stock 5 speed. The reason is that the internals are different between the ZF and Getrag so what is correct for one may not be for the other. This alludes to what Randy was saying about the shifting. This transmission shifts better than my ZF did but requires more effort. I have a ZHP knob which is heavier than stock but shortens the throw and I made my own version of Rogue Engineering's weighted selector rod to help with the shifting effort.
Last edited by Wertles; 11-20-2014 at 12:06 PM.
1999 M Coupe Boston Green, Beige, H&R/Bilsteins, Underdrive Pulleys, Euro 6 speed, UUC SSK and Randy Forbes in the back
2002 2.5 Z3 roadster Oxford Green, auto, all stock
2013 Ram 3500 Crew Cab Dually 385 HP, 850 ft lbs torque at 1600 rpm, all stock and staying that way
2004 Mini Cooper Chili Red, daily driver, modified almost daily
The 6 speed swap is fantastic, but only when paired with a higher ratio rear end (for fun purposes anyway). I wanted to go with a 3.91 rear, but found a steal on a 4.10 lsd so I used that. Many people will say that 1st gear is useless, but I disagree. The car is completely changed and the first 4 gears become perfect with the 4.10 for acceleration. The problem I encountered with a 6 speed was shady craigslist sellers. I ended up buying a SMG trans that was converted to a 6 speed...it works and shifts great but 1-2 and 3-4 side action is really sloppy. Still, I would do it again. The actual 6 speed M3 Getrag trans is tough as hell and the shifts are very precise. I found it to be less notchy then the ZF 5 speed.
I would expect a converted SMG box that's missing half the detent system to be less notchy than a worn ZF. Also, the useless first gear argument is with FI.
- - - Updated - - -
Chris, this is the info I have been using. From the pic, it would appear the 2.8/30 shifter willnot be any higher than the stock ///M, but calms down the throw by 20% or so. I am running a ZHP knob and the weighted double-shear shift rod. I am not a fan of weighting the shift linkage to overcome the transmission detents; I just have this problem with trying to gain performance by adding inertia. Kinda like the old Pinto "road hugging weight" commercials.
shift_levers_z-models.jpg
Last edited by rf900rkw; 11-20-2014 at 01:27 PM.
/.randy
"Definitely won't pay for itself, but what the heck…"
Pretty much the way I feel about a lot of mods I've made. Thanks for all the responses. I'm gonna stick with my 5 speed.
The other advantage of the six speed, which no one in this thread may be concerned with, is it's ability to hold additional torque reliability. It has been shown to handle high power abuse at levels above the stock ZF 5-Speed.
Well, yeah, but that's more a topic for the forced induction forum.
Speaking of... you need to check the test mule in my coupe. One finger shifting. Compared to the old 170K mile box that you had to smack with your palm, it's pretty friggin' awesome.
/.randy
Yes, that is true but I wonder if there is enough room to shift into 6th gear with that one. Less length below the ball = longer throw above and with the smaller smaller space available below in the 2/4/6 tapered plastic surround space than the R/1/3/5 above, it might get real tight and hit the surround in 6th. I know with what I already have, I just barely fit. Increasing the distance of the throw wouldn't work I'm pretty sure. It would be a good experiment but I sold my 3.0 shifter.
The key to fitting it is a long throw underneath with a shorter one above. The height on the UUC shifter is adjustable with a set screw. I have it on the shortest setting to keep the throw as short as possible. I may next year put it up to the highest setting to see how it effects the shifting effort.
The home made weighted selector rod was not really done on purpose. I just made the part really strong and it ended up being heavier than stock but not as heavy as Rogue's.
Last edited by Wertles; 11-20-2014 at 03:17 PM.
1999 M Coupe Boston Green, Beige, H&R/Bilsteins, Underdrive Pulleys, Euro 6 speed, UUC SSK and Randy Forbes in the back
2002 2.5 Z3 roadster Oxford Green, auto, all stock
2013 Ram 3500 Crew Cab Dually 385 HP, 850 ft lbs torque at 1600 rpm, all stock and staying that way
2004 Mini Cooper Chili Red, daily driver, modified almost daily
No mods ever really pay for themselves that's not why we do it. I mean the purpose of modding a car (at least in my mind) is to bring the car to a feel or performance level you would be comfortable with enjoy. In that respect a 6 speed is great. Even in my lowly 2.3, going to a 3.46 gearing made a world of difference, I was even debating going to 3.73 gears and 6 speed. Transforms the feel of the car, I am just missing that 6th gear for the highway. Right now it's a bit annoying.
Suspension: Bilstein Sports, GC Coilover conversion, IE Subframe Bushings, IE RTABs, M roadster sways, M roadster front control arms, M roadster Front calipers/hubs.
Engine/Driveline: M54B30 intake Manifold, Dinan CAI, ZHP Cams, Headers, Underdrive pulleys, Conforti Software, 3.46 diff.
A 6 speed would make me shift more aggressively with a shorter diff setup with it, thanks to shorter gears...... I'd definitely not SAVE gas
~Ken~ '99 M coupe THE "original" TT Stage 3 - HTA3586R; 701 whp 672 wtq @ 26.5 psi ; NeverSell - CoupeCartel
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