P'tree AX feedback

[Zodiacbw]

This AX season was pretty much a wash from lack of interest/signup.

I'd like to get some feedback on why. When I started AX'ing at Lake Lanier Islands a few years back, events were full or close to it every time it seems.

So, was it the drive to the track? Other events conflicting? Wanting better tracks? El Amazo beating you in your own car? Post it up.

[espguitarist]

I know that the Mother's day event, and the Saturday event were issues for a lot of people. (Obviously...those are the ones that got cancelled). Seems like those were just poor planning.

I don't recall even seeing any emails or info about AX5 that was supposed to have been the first or second week of October. Bummer too, I was ready for that one.

[Zodiacbw]

This season was rather last minute, on the fly. The Oct. event was called off due to signup being so poor from the previous event. I've been on the hunt for a new lot, not having much luck though. Just not many parking lots of that size, never mind the owners willing to clear it out and rent it for a day.

[5speed300]

I love AMS, can't imagine a better auto-x venue. The long runs are much more fun than the 35-50 second courses I was used to. In my opinion what killed it was the national office limiting the events only to CCA members. I remember a few years back we had a fair number of folks with non-bmws showing up, which was really cool. Once that rule went into effect the attendance greatly dropped. A lot of folks also migrated to track stuff around that time.

Maybe making someone at the national office aware that the members only rule killed the program would encourage them to relax it. Or what about doing what SCCA does and saying that a membership is part of the entry fee?

[propcar]

I love AMS, can't imagine a better auto-x venue. The long runs are much more fun than the 35-50 second courses I was used to. In my opinion what killed it was the national office limiting the events only to CCA members. I remember a few years back we had a fair number of folks with non-bmws showing up, which was really cool. Once that rule went into effect the attendance greatly dropped. A lot of folks also migrated to track stuff around that time.

Maybe making someone at the national office aware that the members only rule killed the program would encourage them to relax it. Or what about doing what SCCA does and saying that a membership is part of the entry fee?

I think you're probably right about that.

[5speed300]

I suppose the SCCA can get away with the membership included in entry fee because its only what 10-15 bucks? And then you're good for the whole season. I think my BMW CCA renewal was $40-50 recently, so obviously not many people will fork that over PLUS $40 for the auto-x itself.

I'm not at all familiar with the internal workings of the club and membership setup, and I think someone told me once it was for liability/insurance reasons that events were restricted to members. If that's the case, could an additional consent/disclosure form be drafted for non-members to sign before participating? Or could a small "fee" be imposed on them ($10 or something) that covers the additional insurance cost of having non-members attend? I have no idea, but I imagine a solution could be crafted (probably with the National Office's help) that allows wider participation.

I gotta say, that 2012 season when I first started with Ptree chapter was a blast. Lots of car/people variety, great long courses, and plenty of events so you could really track vs. your competition over the year. I'd love to see it get back to that in the future. It's less enticing (for me) to come out when there's only 3 cars in your class.

[Hatch]

AUto-x is great entry for beginner drivers who want to push their limits. I did auto-x all in college with FSAE, and since have been a track converted driver. The 1 minute of fun is just it, 1 minute of fun, where as a track day can amass to Hours of fun.

I'm just now getting to enjoy getting back in the driver seat after starting a career, and playing catchup. If i had time, I would have done some Auto-X.

[AstroSloth]

Every time I saw the thread for the Peachtree AX i was interested in it, but seeing as I've never done autocross I didn't know where to start. It does seem more novice-friendly than most though. If it's possible, I think ill come to one next season to see what its all about, and then hopefully start doing them. So i guess my feedback is irrelevant xD.

[Zodiacbw]

I suppose the SCCA can get away with the membership included in entry fee because its only what 10-15 bucks? And then you're good for the whole season. I think my BMW CCA renewal was $40-50 recently, so obviously not many people will fork that over PLUS $40 for the auto-x itself.

I'm not at all familiar with the internal workings of the club and membership setup, and I think someone told me once it was for liability/insurance reasons that events were restricted to members. If that's the case, could an additional consent/disclosure form be drafted for non-members to sign before participating? Or could a small "fee" be imposed on them ($10 or something) that covers the additional insurance cost of having non-members attend? I have no idea, but I imagine a solution could be crafted (probably with the National Office's help) that allows wider participation.

I gotta say, that 2012 season when I first started with Ptree chapter was a blast. Lots of car/people variety, great long courses, and plenty of events so you could really track vs. your competition over the year. I'd love to see it get back to that in the future. It's less enticing (for me) to come out when there's only 3 cars in your class.

I'll have to look into the reasoning behind requiring membership. Thinking it had to do with so many non-cca members running at the events.

Every time I saw the thread for the Peachtree AX i was interested in it, but seeing as I've never done autocross I didn't know where to start. It does seem more novice-friendly than most though. If it's possible, I think ill come to one next season to see what its all about, and then hopefully start doing them. So i guess my feedback is irrelevant xD.

Basically just sign up and bring out a car that is mechanically sound. We have helmets to rent.
More info: http://www.peachtreebmwcca.org/index...d=76&Itemid=37

[RichE30]

Membership requirements are a national club requirement. Basically, it all boils down to tax status for the BMW CCA as a car club. By allowing non-members to pay to attend events, the club risks becoming classified by the IRS as "for profit". We, as a chapter to the national club, have to abide by their rules.

[Gesture]

Membership requirements are a national club requirement. Basically, it all boils down to tax status for the BMW CCA as a car club. By allowing non-members to pay to attend events, the club risks becoming classified by the IRS as "for profit". We, as a chapter to the national club, have to abide by their rules.

This maybe true but the PCA seems to make it work for non members, maybe someone should ask the national office about why that is?
"Autocross registration is done online here at ClubRegistration.net. The cost is $45 per autocross for PCA members and $50 for non-members."

I would say the 2 reasons I see for low turnout would be members only events and location (AMS).

I ran my first AutoX with BMWCCA as a non-member, I probably wouldn't have run if I had to pay an additional membership charge ($40-50). I bring new people to the SCCA AutoX events all the time as non-members, it is easy to justify an additional $12 for a "Weekend Membership" to SCCA especially when a new person (Novice) get 5 runs with instruction(I know at the BMWCCA events we get more like 7 runs). Plus you can deduct up to 2 weekend membership fees from any future 1 year SCCA membership cost, if you choose to get the 1 year membership. The few times a year I try to attend a BMWCCA AutoX I try and get friends to come with me to run their cars, but they are either not a current member or not willing to become a member for maybe 1 event.

AMS is a great big lot, and usually really fun to drive at, but the drive to AMS is 45min for me (and I live in downtown Atlanta). I know several of the organizers(or more involved members) come from greater distances than I do but some weekend I cannot justify 1.5hours in the car on the interstate just for 7-8 of fun.

[Jcbe34]

Yep, you guys need to figure out how to allow non-members to participate. Many other regions do it, so clearly there is a way. I would venture to guess that is the sole reason for the drop in participation, especially since the low attendance problems basically started when that rule came into play.

[RichE30]

This maybe true but the PCA seems to make it work for non members, maybe someone should ask the national office about why that is?
"Autocross registration is done online here at ClubRegistration.net. The cost is $45 per autocross for PCA members and $50 for non-members."

What PCA does has no bearing on what happens in the BMW CCA. SCCA suffers the same problem, that's why you have to buy weekend memberships to run their AX's. BMW CCA does not offer a weekend membership. We can't control that at the local chapter level.

As for the locations, to be frank AMS is about the only reasonable place left to run. I've personally approached numerous locations over the past two years and no one wants to host these events. Turner prices don't work for our club, and you have to fight for weekends with SCCA and the Braves. White Water and Six Flags are concerned about their pavement. Lake Lanier just plain doesn't want us there. Stone Mountain might have worked, until SCCA came in and ruined that location for everyone.

[5speed300]

Locations are tough but AMS is about as good a venue as I've seen, both in proximity and size. The only way they get better is on big open airfields, but I've spent a few hours on Google looking for those around Georgia and there just don't seem to be many. Plenty of people up in NC would drive an hour or two for some the events at airfields in the middle of nowhere. AMS is well within that distance for most ATL folks so I don't think distance keeps too many people away - though surely some.

Just trying to think creatively about how we could make it work - we know its a requirement from the national chapter for various reasons. Is there a national autocross chair? Could someone talk to him/her about the issues and try to come up with a way to make it work? Could the national autocross chair work with the membership or legal department to come up with a solution? Maybe they could create an "autox" membership like the SCCA has.

Knowing zero about the national office, I can't imagine they wouldn't be willing to come up with something, perhaps they just aren't aware of the issue? I also wonder if Ptree is the only chapter this happened to? Doesn't seem like a hard sell to think that getting non-members involved/introduced to the club would result in some proportion eventually becoming members and paying dues. That goes even further if you have a BMW and aren't a member, but have a friend or two who would also like to autocross but don't have BMWs. You're probably more likely to attend the event with a couple of friends than by yourself. And since you've got a BMW eventually you'd probably sign up with the club, hell maybe your friends would too.

Granted, I don't think this is anyone's full-time job (except maybe at the National office?) so it's amazing to me the events get put on at all. Really appreciative of the effort everyone puts in and not trying to knock what has been done in any way. Just thinking out loud.

[Gesture]

BMW CCA does not offer a weekend membership. We can't control that at the local chapter level.

Not with that attitude we can't. We are dues paying members, if we have a problem with what the national office rules are then we, as a chapter, should let the national office know. If our chapter is unwilling to let the national office know then individual should let the national office know. If that doesn't work then we should not renew our membership and go pay dues to someone who listens to its members. Both the SCCA and the PCA are NONPROFIT car clubs who have somehow, miraculously, been able to offer registration for non-members without having IRS issues. Which makes me wonder what the real reason for BMWCCA not allowing non-member at autocross. I have read the PCA was in the past members only, I would have to guess that new member registration started to drop so they changed their rules, it just a matter of time for BMWCCA to do the same.

[RichE30]

Not with that attitude we can't. We are dues paying members, if we have a problem with what the national office rules are then we, as a chapter, should let the national office know. If our chapter is unwilling to let the national office know then individual should let the national office know. If that doesn't work then we should not renew our membership and go pay dues to someone who listens to its members. Both the SCCA and the PCA are NONPROFIT car clubs who have somehow, miraculously, been able to offer registration for non-members without having IRS issues. Which makes me wonder what the real reason for BMWCCA not allowing non-member at autocross. I have read the PCA was in the past members only, I would have to guess that new member registration started to drop so they changed their rules, it just a matter of time for BMWCCA to do the same.

SCCA does not allow non-members. If you run, you've paid for a weekend membership. If you want to try to voice your opinion to BMW CCA national about it, go ahead. I can assure you that they've heard it plenty out of your local chapter since the rule was put in place.

I know the chapter is now looking for members to step up and work on the autocross committee. Feel free to reach out to Jason if you guys are interested. I think Bruce is no longer able to continue as head of our committee and I've also stepped away from autocross for the foreseeable future.

[kenndoggy]

Can I shout out an 'I told you so'? When you push everybody away for so long, eventually you have no waitlist. Eventually, some of your 'regulars' leave, and who's left to replace them? Nobody, because you've either A: pissed them off, or B: told them no for so long they gave up and went to play in another sandbox. I predicted this YEARS AGO, and nobody listened....

[jrotax101]

For me personally, and a few other "north OTPers" that I know of, the 90 minute drive down there was the deciding factor. Plus this year dates clashed.

[328iBMW10]

the drive was really painful. I know the location is hard to come by but 3 hours of driving kinda nuked it

[M3Alpine99]

For me personally, and a few other "north OTPers" that I know of, the 90 minute drive down there was the deciding factor. Plus this year dates clashed.

the drive was really painful. I know the location is hard to come by but 3 hours of driving kinda nuked it

This is it. I know the Northern members aren't the only members but I figure about half were coming from there. 3 Hours in the car for a few runs became not worth it. Now with the ChumpCar racing I'd rather hang out with the team if I have a free weekend than go Auto-X.

And more importantly it seems the super active GA group have moved on for the most part. Each doing their own thing.

[Gesture]

SCCA does not allow non-members. If you run, you've paid for a weekend membership.

I see what you did there, let me clarify then. SCCA will not turn anyone away for not having a YEAR LONG membership, which is BMW CCAs current policy.

For me personally, and a few other "north OTPers" that I know of, the 90 minute drive down there was the deciding factor. Plus this year dates clashed.

Everytime I try to get you to join me at the SCCA events you would complain you didn't want to waist a whole day(in the sun), which sounds like the reason you also stopped attending the BMW CCA events.

I felt like the number 1 reason for dropping attendance was the members only rule, but it sounds like it might be a tie with location. So finding a centralized event location would help bring back old regulars and maybe prevent half the events from being cancelled. Finding a new location is a hard job and will take a lot of work, as RichE30 has already found out.

[M3Alpine99]

Think it is more of 'people move on'. There is no new blood in the club that I can see or have seen. Granted I have not been to a CCA social in probably 6-8 months but if the forum is anything to have an idea of the local scene everyone moved on.

We have popped up random Thursday night meets and the same people come. No one new. Used to be 1 or 2 new people every time.

[kenndoggy]

Think it is more of 'people move on'. There is no new blood in the club that I can see or have seen. Granted I have not been to a CCA social in probably 6-8 months but if the forum is anything to have an idea of the local scene everyone moved on.

We have popped up random Thursday night meets and the same people come. No one new. Used to be 1 or 2 new people every time.

That was my point though, and was my point years ago as well. The people 'moved on', and there is nobody left to replace them because they were all pushed away. You reap what you sow. Granted, we need to look around at the economy as well, but I can't see that having killed off all the potential when every other AX program is thriving. PCA has been holding great events, and partnering with SCCA to help make better, more expensive lots possible.

[DOUGDOUGLAS]

Wow, this is the most excitement I have seen on this forum in a while.

As said by others, it seems the most significant obstacles are the annual membership fee and the long haul to AMS for many folks.

There are no easy answers to this, but I would hate to see us give up and stop having an auto-x group all together.

A few options that may be possible are:

1- Run with PCA and have them recognize BMW classes. They tell me that they are still open to doing this, and their courses are much better than that one abortion of a joint event that we still blame them for from some 6 years ago.

2- See how PCA is getting past the membership requirement and push the BMWCCA national folks some more. I just looked and all of their e-mail addresses are in the back of Roundel. Anyone want to start a letter writing campaign?

3- Keep working on new venues. This weekend I was running at Road Atlanta, and noticed the infield paddock might make a good place to run. The Skip Barber school was using for just that on Saturday, but it did not look like they used it on Sunday. Some will argue this is no closer than AMS for a lot of folks, but it could appeal to a lot of folks. Another possibility is the old Lanier speedway which is being repaved on the infield. I know SCCA has looked at this, and it seems to be too small for the big SCCA crowd, but might fit BMWCCA.

[ShaunATL]

Wow, this is the most excitement I have seen on this forum in a while.

I was thinking the same thing.