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Thread: A dreaded and unknown howl/whine... D-side engine compartment, NOT belts/tensioners

  1. #1
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    A dreaded and unknown howl/whine... D-side engine compartment, NOT belts/tensioners

    Good afternoon folks,
    I had posted here before when deciding upon purchasing this particular 530i, using a different username that I have since lost, but either way I followed your advice, paid around 3K for the car that had 190k on it, although with the new engine (nikasil v. alusil type situation) at 110k. Recently I had been hearing whines and hums coming from the engine compartment. Two distinct lesser ones and a stronger, more supernatural sounding one. Belts? Yes, in part. Paid my local BMW mechanic for a diagnostic while I was doing the oil change. He said replace serpentine tensioner and belt and a/c belt, eventually a/c tensioner, but not necessary yet. Pulleys were cool. He also said the v/c gasket was leaking/going bad. It was spitting a bit of white smoke at start-up. I fixed the serpentine tensioner, belt, and a/c belt. The two lesser whines/hums went away, but literally as I was leaving with the fixed serpentine tensioner etc. the car started the supernatural like whining/humming in the engine compartment, and began barfing smoke. I felt like Doc from Back to the Future, making a spectacle of myself with a jet-worthy smoke trail behind the car. I am guessing that the smoke symptom is a blown gasket as diagnosed, and I did not overheat the car, thank Jeebus, promptly parked it, and am awaiting the 2 gaskets and 22 rubber bolts from Bavarian Autosport right now. However, there is still that worrisome loud hum/whine/howl that sounds sort of like an echo coming from the engine compartment, driver's side, close to the interior compartment. My BMW mechanic never mentioned it, the guys at Sears where I got the tires used a stethoscope and said it sounds like a pump, but my secondary air pump and water pump were cool, as were fluid levels, and it sounded like it was coming from the transmission/engine link area.

    Could this humming be caused by the faulty head gasket, maybe letting air into the chambers or something, or is it another problem entirely? I'm just wondering if it could be a fatal symptom, as I just spent $300 on tires (found a great sale on some solid rubbers), around $400 on the serpentine/belts job, $100 on oil/fluids, $75 on diagnostic, $60 on gasket parts (went with the Reinz brand ones at the salesman's recommendation) and I'm guessing $200 in labor, but if that engine whine is more serious I am thinking maybe cut my losses? I put $5,000 into an e39 that I got $600 for at the junk yard after its second engine died, so I am going to be careful from now on and know when to fold. The 530i still needs upper/lower control arms, tie rod ends, and sway bar also. I paid $3,000 for it, putting another $2,000 in just 1 year later is kind of crazy I think, although the body and interior are fantastic and it shifts ever so well, and of the windows, only the passenger side is broken, only the regulator, and it just broke! The last e34 usually had 2-3 broken on a rotating basis, and the moon-roof never worked.

    Any advice?! When I get the v/c gaskets I'll have the mechanic put them in and do another diagnostic, but I am concerned that it will be worthless and the loud embarrassing whine will continue and I'll still have a car that I cannot drive, as I'm not interested in being that guy with a shrieking car, I'd rather be that guy on a skateboard with a car in the shop, but I need to know what to fix. The coolant system is solid as far as myself and 2 mechanics can tell, it does sip 16-32oz of coolant every month or two but that is the worn gasket I'm thinking, the power steering pump used to groan but this noise is much louder and more painful and aggressive, the girlfriend said it sounds like a pitched whine, it goes up and down in tone, like a moaning dog.

    Thanks for any guidance you all may have!

    -Michael

  2. #2
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    Failing head gaskets on an m6x engine are pretty uncommon, and to replace them you would need more than just two gaskets, so I'm going to assume you mean your valve cover gaskets are leaking, not your head gaskets. Rather than assuming or guessing, you should clean the area and find the leak, then fix what's leaking.

    Your humming is likely either a failing alternator or power steering pump.

    Go ahead and bite. Plenty for everyone.

  3. #3
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    Is the smoke "barfing" from your exhaust pipe, or from under the hood?
    I have not personally experienced this (yet) but I have read on this board that a failed crankcase vent valve diaphragm (CCV) on the back of the intake manifold. (often misidentified as the OSV), can make a very loud whining sound, and of course lots of oil smoke from the tailpipe.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrCharles View Post
    Is the smoke "barfing" from your exhaust pipe, or from under the hood?
    I have not personally experienced this (yet) but I have read on this board that a failed crankcase vent valve diaphragm (CCV) on the back of the intake manifold. (often misidentified as the OSV), can make a very loud whining sound, and of course lots of oil smoke from the tailpipe.
    That's a good point too.

    Go ahead and bite. Plenty for everyone.

  5. #5
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    Thanks! Definitely narrowing it down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Binjammin View Post
    That's a good point too.
    I did mean the valve gasket covers not the head gasket, if that wasn't clear my apologies, the Reinz parts that I required 2 of in addition to the 22 rubber seals. That either way has been leaking for a while and just got markedly worse, so that could be the cause of the smoke, coming out from the exhaust pipes exclusively, none from under the hood. The smoking began on start-up the day after a recent oil change though, so maybe high oil levels influenced it? The alternator was whining at start-up a while ago, but this droning whine/hum now stays with me from start-up on through running, excepting when I am accelerating. I will keep the crank case diaphragm in mind, they have the gasket and back pan at the parts place I use, is $70 normal for that, or does anywhere just sell the "diaphragm", and would my engine have to come out, or is it less invasive like the valve gasket cover replacement?

    Advice appreciated! I can wrench window regulators and door lock mechanisms, and do a bit of body work (good 'ol putty and high-pixel sandpaper) and can do painting with the right gear and rolls upon rolls of prep tape, but when it comes to under-the-hood work, or suspension, I lack the tools and confidence so I generally work with my preferred local indie on those sorts of repairs. This one the valve cover gaskets were not bad price wise, $60 for 2 Reinz covers and 22 of the rubber seals, and I'm anticipating a quote of $200 for labor on Tuesday or Wednesday when I tow it in with those parts on the passenger seat. The alternator or power steering pump could very well be the culprit, as the whine did get much worse literally immediately after picking up the car with the new serpentine tensioner, belt, and a/c belt, so more strain is on it. Are there any other tell-tale signs of either of those failures I need to look out for? If it is one of those, weak, the alternator looks like it is $300 and the power steering pump around $350. Are they hard to install, or could my limited skills and tools work for those?

    Random shot: Should anyone on here happen to be near Austin, TX and have some of these parts, maybe good used parts, please do send a private message! I'd rather not have to drop new part prices on the alternator and power steering pump as that would eat the labor cost for installing the Lemforder front-end parts I need put in, next on my list of necessary purchases. I will call pick-a-part Monday but they seem shady, went there 1 time and they wanted like $10 more for a self-pulled door lock mechanism for an e39 than it would have costed new. I left it on the counter and wished them a nice afternoon as I ordered a new one on my phone. Or if the parts are hard to install and take labor time I will bite the bullet and buy new. This car is starting to cause me to earmark from the budget far too often...

    -Michael

  6. #6
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    Not sure what happened just now, tried to reply and it got lost... Either way:

    Sorry, I did mean valve cover gaskets, the rubber seals that cost $16.95 for the Reinz, and $.95 for the 22 rubber seals I need. Either way that needs to be done, I'm expecting $200 in labor, sound right? It could very well be the alternator or power steering pump, the alternator used to hum at start-up, but now the whine is with me from start-up on through driving, excepting when I am accelerating. Any other tests for the alternator or power steering pump? The smoke, from the exhaust exclusively, began the moment I picked up the car from the mechanic after the serpentine tensioner, belt, and a/c belt went in, so the strain definitely went up. Will check the CCV diaphragm, know of anywhere that is available online alone, or does it have to come with the back plate?

    Thanks for the info! I can wrench window regulators and locks, some body work (putty and high pixel sandpaper goodness) and painting, but for under-the-hood or suspension work go to the local indie I prefer.

    Random shot: If there are any Austin TX members around who have some of these parts, new or used as long as they are solid, let me know! Or if the alternator and power steering pump swap, if that is the problem, is labor intensive, I guess only new as I don't want to double down on labor. The list keeps growing as I check off the top, not how I wanted this to go...

    -Michael
    Last edited by e34lovinghater; 10-18-2014 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #7
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    Open the oil dip stick and see if it goes away.

    It sounds like the CCV is bad. When it goes bad there is an aweful howl at idle that sounds like it is coming form everywhere and nowhere in particular. Basically, the manifold vacuum is not regulated and will suck air through every available gap. I recommend pulling the intake when you change it the first time.
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  8. #8
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    Sound like this, maybe not as loud??


    95 540i6 M Sport - 95 525it S52/OBD2 - 433k E36 328i5 - X5D that hit a pothole - IG: @justinmurray95

  9. #9
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    ATL530i, that is the exact sound I am hearing, excellent! Now at least I know, and it isn't the $300-350 power steering pump or the alternator. Maybe I am disoriented though but it sounds like it is coming from the driver's side in my car, on this video it is the passenger side? I'll have that taken care of when I get the valve gasket covers put in, unless it looks simple enough to do myself however. So for this I purchase these?:
    11 61 1 729 728 Intake Manifold Gasket
    11 61 7 501 562 Intake Manifold Rear Cover - with oil separator valve
    Do you think the rear cover is essential or do people usually just get the gasket?

    Avec, I will do the dipstick test to check that. Could you clarify for me what you mean by "pulling the intake"? I may do the intake manifold gasket and rear cover myself, but do not understand what you mean, please bear with, I'm new to under-the-hood work altogether but have the necessary patience and dexterity to get it done, insofar as I have the right tools. Do you mean I should purchase new intake parts beyond the two above to install?

    I have been looking for the DIY on this but only found one for a newer 7 series, if not a bother would one of you folks please direct me to a DIY for the e34 on the intake manifold gasket and rear cover replacement? The DIY for the newer 7series looked like something I could handle, not nearly as invasive as the valve gasket cover work, so maybe I'll venture under the hood for the first time, as the labor costs are stacking up, prob $200 for the valve gasket covers, $300 for the installation of the upper/lower controls arms, tie rods, and sway bar, I'll do the passenger regulator myself but that's still $85 in forthcoming parts... It says on the DIY for the valve gasket covers I need all new spark plugs also? Do I need to order 8 of those with the valve gasket covers, and if so, are the Bosch ones for $4.95 really recommended by BMW?

    Thanks!

    The map of America w/ the Beemer color-scheme on your grille, ATL530i, by the way is legit. Not something I have ever seen. My 2nd e34 was that color red, I miss the flash, the Calypso is nice but more old-man ish than I'd prefer given my 31 years. Once I get all this mechanical work done I'll add ceramic tints for some functional style, but I'm not for much alterations, maybe blacked-out M rims at some point...

  10. #10
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    Also, to add to the last response which has yet to post awaiting moderation, would that intake manifold gasket cause the massive smoke belching from the exhaust? Or is that the valve gasket covers for sure?

  11. #11
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    You said the car was barfing smoke, I assumed you meant under the hood. If it was coming from the exhaust, and the car wasn't overheating, then yes, that goes with the pcv plate. Change that.

    Go ahead and bite. Plenty for everyone.

  12. #12
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    Here's a link to a thread that has a lot of what you need. A lot of it is also "while you're in there" stuff which I would recommending doing so you do not have to pull the intake again. When I did mine, I replaced everything including the knock sensors.

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...eference-sheet

    95 540i6 M Sport - 95 525it S52/OBD2 - 433k E36 328i5 - X5D that hit a pothole - IG: @justinmurray95

  13. #13
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    Alright, I spoke with the mechanic and have ordered the back intake manifold cover, genuine BMW, and the gasket, not genuine BMW as it was not in stock as Bavarian Autosport. Do you all think that matters? I was assured the gasket has no difference in functional value, but the local BMW dealer does have it in-stock if it is actually better. The mechanic quoted me at $500 in labor to replace the back plate and gasket, as well as the other gaskets at the start and end of some pipe he said runs from the front to the back. I want to just do the back plate and gasket myself, but without opening the intake so I do not risk messing up in a major way, and am hoping you could direct me to the DIY. I had found a perfect one two days ago but have since lost it, it said I needed to use a Husky 1/4in driver speed wrench and had fantastic pictures. Just spent a few hours looking again and have totally lost it. If someone here has a link to a great DIY where I can put in the back plate without opening the intake I would hugely appreciate it. The parts are on the way, my father found me a 1/4in speed wrench and that is on the way down in the mail, and I am uncertain, do I need torx sockets or torx bits to remove the 7 bolts around the back plate? Thanks for the info! I am excited to try it, sort of. I ordered a tow hook, the one tool missing from the trunk kit on this one, just in case I fail and need to pull it away to the mechanic.
    Last edited by e34lovinghater; 10-23-2014 at 10:59 PM. Reason: typos annoy me

  14. #14
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    Bro, for $500 you can DIY all of this, and get a lot more done at the same time. Look in the DIY subforum here. Also order new bolts for the PCV plate, the OEM torx bolts will strip out on you.

    Go ahead and bite. Plenty for everyone.

  15. #15
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    Getting those bolts out with the intake on is not only a major PITA, but chances are very low that you will be able to do it. They are difficult to reach and extremely easy to strip due to the angle and difficulty in getting at them. You can try, but in your spare time between now and then read up on pulling the intake manifold.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avec View Post
    Open the oil dip stick and see if it goes away.

    It sounds like the CCV is bad. When it goes bad there is an aweful howl at idle that sounds like it is coming form everywhere and nowhere in particular. Basically, the manifold vacuum is not regulated and will suck air through every available gap. I recommend pulling the intake when you change it the first time.
    My first thoughts too

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  17. #17
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    Alright then I will read up on the removing the intake manifold to maybe get less intimidated and wrap my head around it to see if I can't pull the intake and replace more than just the back plate and gasket, like the other gaskets that run up through it and that lower pipe/hose. If I am removing the intake does it become increasingly difficult to go a bit further and replace the valve gasket covers as well? If it's an incremental step maybe I'll go all the way and save another $600 in labor for putting on the valve-cover gaskets. It's so insane to me that $60-80 in parts can entail $500-600 in labor. I've never touched the engine before so I am a bit intimidated and worried that if I screw up I could ruin it...

    The post I saw where the guy pulled the bolts without removing the intake did sound a bit magical, the guy uses a forehead strapped miner's flashlight, an extendable mirror with light, and an extending magnetic wand, but he did do it and made it sound easy. You are probably right though and it may be more trouble than it is worth. My mechanic said the guy was probably a BMW tech from that era so has it down like instinct, and my father said the guy probably just snapped photos of smooth steps and not the frustration in-between. They both told me to give it a try though and worst case I have AAA and a tow-truck on call. Either way though it sounds risky... I live in an apartment complex so it will have to be done on the day I start it as it can't sit disassembled in the lot. The intake removal takes a few hours in and a few hours out? Thanks!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by e34lovinghater View Post
    Alright, I spoke with the mechanic and have ordered the back intake manifold cover, genuine BMW, and the gasket, not genuine BMW as it was not in stock as Bavarian Autosport. Do you all think that matters? I was assured the gasket has no difference in functional value, but the local BMW dealer does have it in-stock if it is actually better. The mechanic quoted me at $500 in labor to replace the back plate and gasket, as well as the other gaskets at the start and end of some pipe he said runs from the front to the back. I want to just do the back plate and gasket myself, but without opening the intake so I do not risk messing up in a major way, and am hoping you could direct me to the DIY. I had found a perfect one two days ago but have since lost it, it said I needed to use a Husky 1/4in driver speed wrench and had fantastic pictures. Just spent a few hours looking again and have totally lost it. If someone here has a link to a great DIY where I can put in the back plate without opening the intake I would hugely appreciate it. The parts are on the way, my father found me a 1/4in speed wrench and that is on the way down in the mail, and I am uncertain, do I need torx sockets or torx bits to remove the 7 bolts around the back plate? Thanks for the info! I am excited to try it, sort of. I ordered a tow hook, the one tool missing from the trunk kit on this one, just in case I fail and need to pull it away to the mechanic.
    Recommend getting the OE PCV plate, lots of documented failures of aftermarket ones. It's a pain to do over, especially if you are paying another to do it.

    If you DIY replace those pesky torx screws with hex heads.
    Last edited by ross1; 10-24-2014 at 01:15 PM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  19. #19
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    Here is the post I found by the way for your reference on the removal without pulling the intake.

    http://www.magnum1.com/magnum/BMW-740/740_Pages/Maintenance-Pages/Rear-Manifold-Cover-740.php

    - - - Updated - - -

    I did definitely buy the "Genuine BMW" part for the back plate, you are totally right a bunch of posts I've been researching said the aftermarket one dies far more often and is totally not worth saving $30 on, the gasket though they only had an aftermarket, but assured me the gasket makes no difference. The aftermarket gasket was just $3.95, the local BMW dealer has one at $18.95, I have no problem paying for the best parts, rather prefer it to avoid more maintenance, should I get the BMW gasket or does that part not really matter?

  20. #20
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    I wouldn't worry about the aftermarket gasket... keep in mind that the 7 series (ref your link) has some stuff connected to the back plate that the 5 series does not.

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