S62 sleeved and turbocharged

[futureroadracer]

The E39 engine compartment is no tighter than most late model domestics like the mustang. There are a few different twin and single turbo kits available for the domestic cars. There are guys out there that can/ could mass produce a kit or even build custom one off kit. At the end of the day it comes down to the demand signal and cost. The market is just not there.

How many E39 M5's came to the states? How many 5Lmustangs we sold this year alone?

[futureroadracer]

Give Mike and nick a car, a check, and some time and they can do it. When I was up in jersey working with them, we had my e39 m5 running on 60lb injectors with the plans of developing a turbo kit. We decided that we should focus on the newer plateforms, so I sold the m5 and bought and e92 m3. I am still toying with the idea of a turbo m5 in the future...

Of course they can do it. Hell, a single turbo kit prob wouldn't be too expensive. Their E46 kit is 10k.. Figure what, another 2-3k for a single E39 M5 turbo kit... Now how much power will it make reliably? Let's say it safely makes 500/500. Cool, then what? You'll have 12-13k for 500/500? Even if it's 600whp... For 13k? Ouch. Just not impressive any longer.

Or you build the motor for 10-20k more and hope for 700-800whp, which is completely unchartered territory. 20-30k and fingers crossed. Yea, it'd be cool but where's the market?

Or you do what Eric did, keep the timeless E39 M5 look/style and through an S52 in it. Make 800-900whp for less than 10k. Could even do an S54 swap...

[DieselGhost]

Not sure how much it did cost, but member BlueThunder has a Sleeved S62 with TWIN superchargers on in his E39...

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Give Mike and nick a car, a check, and some time and they can do it. When I was up in jersey working with them, we had my e39 m5 running on 60lb injectors with the plans of developing a turbo kit. We decided that we should focus on the newer plateforms, so I sold the m5 and bought and e92 m3. I am still toying with the idea of a turbo m5 in the future...

Hmm, someone should have spoke up for that potential customer. You never know...

[pbonsalb]

Not sure how much it did cost, but member BlueThunder has a Sleeved S62 with TWIN superchargers on in his E39...

AA made a twin Rotrex kit years ago. Did not really make any more power than a current ESS kit.

[DieselGhost]

He did not get the Active Autowerke kit, i think his was a custom application using Holset Superchargers...

[litemup]

S62's are simply meant to be supercharged. I went that route with my last M5. I picked up 200whp and 120ft/lbs. Power band was still broad and nearly a table top torque curve from 2500-redline. The ability to retain the responsiveness that a S62 is known for and also pick up that much power with no ill effects are why you supercharge a S62. But Ryan is right, you go through all this crazy cost and complication of turbocharging one and you really wouldn't make any more power safely than the supercharged guys who are pullied down a few sizes and trying to figure out how close they are to the edge of regret? Like I keep saying, every big power S62 build goes quiet for one reason or the other, and I think even if you got a sleeved savings account under the hood, it isn't going to hold well under high torque levels. And no one has proven otherwise that I've seen. What's the s62 wheel horsepower and torque record?

[geargrinder]

The E39 engine compartment is no tighter than most late model domestics like the mustang.

Excellent to hear from the "unfamiliar with the actual platform but once saw one drive by on the street" contingent. Mustang TT's either whack them on either side of the bellhousing (no room on E39/420G) or up top in the engine compartment (zero room under the E39 hood except at the way bitty front where it might work tho' runner length would suck and exhaust return would even be really hard, especially on the drivers side). Hell BMW had to go to a recirc ball steering box on the V8's cuz a rack wouldnt fit.

At the end of the day it comes down to the demand signal and cost.

OK. Half truth. "They made less than Mustangs". OK. BUT. Theres enough demand that RMS makes an elaborate and expensive charge cooler setup for supercharging that finds buyers. And there have been 3-4 blower kits for these cars because tuners saw the market. If turbos could be practically made to work somebody woulda done it for sure and would have made a few bucks on it. True now the platform is sunsetting. But it is way way too difficult to fit. Which is why we have blowers and LSX swaps (hell we got LSx twin turbo swaps!) but no turbos. Clearly it is way way harder to turbo than an LSx swap.

But as i always say. Welcome somebody to finally prove it wrong. By actually DOING it of course, not just spouting off on how it must be possible cuz, umm yeah Mustangs and stuff. Sure. Sure it is.

[BigM62]

S62's are simply meant to be supercharged. I went that route with my last M5. I picked up 200whp and 120ft/lbs. Power band was still broad and nearly a table top torque curve from 2500-redline. The ability to retain the responsiveness that a S62 is known for and also pick up that much power with no ill effects are why you supercharge a S62. But Ryan is right, you go through all this crazy cost and complication of turbocharging one and you really wouldn't make any more power safely than the supercharged guys who are pullied down a few sizes and trying to figure out how close they are to the edge of regret? Like I keep saying, every big power S62 build goes quiet for one reason or the other, and I think even if you got a sleeved savings account under the hood, it isn't going to hold well under high torque levels. And no one has proven otherwise that I've seen. What's the s62 wheel horsepower and torque record?

Mine is not quite. . I made 3 weeks ago I made 510 rwhp with RK Tunes, but we kept destroying (3) belts because my Dinan idler bracket kept moving under boost. Just had a new 2x thicker bracket made and hit 15 psi. I find the combo of a strong V8+a S/C to be fun. It is not 900 rwhp, but I am happy (for now).

[prom3]

sleeved turbocharged no one?

[BigM62]

sleeved turbocharged no one?

No.

[futureroadracer]

Excellent to hear from the "unfamiliar with the actual platform but once saw one drive by on the street" contingent. Mustang TT's either whack them on either side of the bellhousing (no room on E39/420G) or up top in the engine compartment (zero room under the E39 hood except at the way bitty front where it might work tho' runner length would suck and exhaust return would even be really hard, especially on the drivers side). Hell BMW had to go to a recirc ball steering box on the V8's cuz a rack wouldnt fit. OK. Half truth. "They made less than Mustangs". OK. BUT. Theres enough demand that RMS makes an elaborate and expensive charge cooler setup for supercharging that finds buyers. And there have been 3-4 blower kits for these cars because tuners saw the market. If turbos could be practically made to work somebody woulda done it for sure and would have made a few bucks on it. True now the platform is sunsetting. But it is way way too difficult to fit. Which is why we have blowers and LSX swaps (hell we got LSx twin turbo swaps!) but no turbos. Clearly it is way way harder to turbo than an LSx swap. But as i always say. Welcome somebody to finally prove it wrong. By actually DOING it of course, not just spouting off on how it must be possible cuz, umm yeah Mustangs and stuff. Sure. Sure it is.

I owned an e39 M5 with a full Dinan S2 kit. I tracked the shit out of the car. I'm hardly unfamiliar.

Have you ever seen the coyote motor in a mustang? Very similar dimensions as is the transmission, radiator support, single turbos under the drivers fender? Hence my comparison.

And there is ample room next to the transmission on the M5, just like the GTO kits.

Tuners saw the market? Really? How my SC M5's are out there? How many make over 550whp? 2000-2003, yes, there was a small market and the kit cost 50k. Now, where's the market? It's an old, expensive car that at best makes 550-600whp on the edge. Hell, even the custom built DA monsters made mid 7's... Some said 8's but never produced a dyno sheet.

How many headers have you installed on an E39 M5? Pulleys? Clutches? Repairs? I can tell you I've done it a hole bunch. How familiar are you? Any pics/ data on your builds? And they installed a different steering assembly to add dynamic steering that allows the steering ratio to change in sport and at different speeds.

Yea, tuners saw the market... They simply adapted there m60/62 kits that were in the market for years as soon as the DME was cracked. Cheap investment for companies already producing a kit with very similar dimensions. Such a demand yet no turbo kits... Weird! Please continue to enlighten us.

[GT35Rm3]

This guy is really grinding my gears

[Colby Colbs]

Apparently that's all he's here to do now... The agenda is clear.

[nleksan]

I had a Dinan "parts catalogue" 2003 M5 (AW/Cin), bought from the original owner with 33k miles on it in 2008, flew down to FL and drove it back. I have only owned a few heavily Dinan-ized cars but this was far and away the most so (I am considering buying either a Dinan 5.7L E60 M5 or E92 M3 w bored/stroked Dinan-ized engine, from a friend).

I owned it for two years, approx, and it was not really any less reliable than the "stock" (Non-FI) 540i/M5's I've had (E34 and E39). I only really spent money on preventative maintenance/performance, or in mitigating potential issues. Zionsville "fatboy" full aluminum radiator, SPAL electric fan fitted with a custom carbon fiber shroud, EMP waterppump, Samco Sport Silicone hoses, running a 35:65 coolant:water mix w Water Wetter, and to address the real potential for heat issues I added a Zionsville oil cooler w custom made -AN braided SS lines, the intakes were already carbon fiber but I made custom heat shields from thick aluminum, the Supersprint equal length tubular STEPPED headers + Oil Pan + Finned Differential Cover + SC housings/etc + misc other things were sent to be coated by SwainTech, the fuel pump was upgraded to a stronger Bosch (and I "flushed" the tank/lines/rail with them disconnected, to get any ethanol gunk out, which I was very glad I thought to do), Bosch Gen3 injectors, Beisan VANOS overhaul, and so on and so forth.
The performance specific things I did were far from extensive, seeing as how without any meddling it was an absolute torque monster basically combining the same "big V8" feel of the M62TU along with the high revving nature of the S62, making for the ultimate Highway cruiser (and with speeds in excess of 130mph coming on so effortlessly, it honestly took me a few weeks to get used to just how much "easy speed" it had, and keep from calmly (and silently) cruising at 120mph on the highway). The Dinan exhaust, already benefitting from the PO having installed the SS headers, was swapped for a lighter, better flowing, and better sounding one (+13rwhp/19rwtq peak). The Dinan wheels are incredible so they stayed (19x9.5f @ 18.8lbs + 19x11r @ 19.7lbs), but the Dinan Brembo brakes were not adequate IMHO for a 2ton rocket (4P/4P 2pc calipers), so they were upgraded to a much better suited set, ST Trophy 6-piston Monobloc calipers w 380mm/365mm 2pc Floating Slotted Rotors (SS lines and RBF600 fluid) and as a side benefit dropped another 3-4lb per corner from vs the smaller but 2pc Brembo's and their 365/355mm drilled rotors. The clutch was changed to a Stage3 unit and the flywheel to a 10lb piece, SS braided line + stiffened transmission mounts w enforcement cups (+ engine/diff), which helped the "small big car" feel further (the unsprung weight loss really transforms the feel of the E34/39 5ers). VAC Superlight Underdrive Pulleys along with custom milled billet aluminum pulleys replacing the rest (some 70pct lighter) made it FEEL more lively, and did put down a solid 8-15rwhp/rwtq across the entire powerband but at such high power levels already, such small amounts don't on their own make for a tangible increase. I am not a drag strip guy, but I did run the car a number of times because I couldn't help it, and the sleeper status of an "executive sedan" w more power than a new SRT8 Challenger is fun. The combination of the exhaust, injectors/remap, LTW FW + clutch, pulleys, etc, all the "little things", did translate into a higher trap but the ET was held back by my being a frankly not good drag Pilot (and not running drag radials, but rather NT01's sized 295 in the rear).
An expensive and much larger and more efficient FMIC was the only other "power" mod I can think of, I don't recall the dimensions but it was the largest possible unit I could fit while keeping the CF brake ducts/HID projector fogs, I think around a 45pct size increase with a similar increase in efficiency.

Anyway, I loved the car, and it CAN be done, but based on the over-$70k in receipts just for modifications given to me alongside the binder of records when I bought it, you may spend far more than its worth to get there...

[herrubermensch]

What a thread to discover on a Sunday morning!

As Ryan and others know, I'm one of "those guys" who has dropped a metric ton of cash on S62 builds. Yes, plural. There is a pretty standard formula for getting them into 6-700 whp territory (D/A build by VAC with a blower and meth injection and reflashed stock ECU), but it runs about $25k UNLESS you do the build yourself and farm the machine work out to a competent outfit without VAC's pedigree. In that circumstance, if you start with a used block and crank, you can have a built S62 for less than $10k. Add blower and accessories, and all in, it can be done for $15k. I have a second S62 that I am building in my spare time, and the cost of that will be well below $10k. It can be done, just not the way, e.g., I did it the first time around, viz., by farming it all out to a shop (Bavarian Solutions).

The principal change I am making with my current build is a motec M190 ECU to make it a little easier to tune and control. Again this is pricey, but significantly less so if you do the harness work and programming yourself. (having Neel Vasavada as a friend helps significantly in my case).

All of the foregoing being said, there are two promising turbo S62 builds underway by M5Board members: one in SC and one in Wisconsin. The latter build is being done by a friend of mine who is a design engineer by trade. His is a twin turbo setup with openings for the snails through the frame rails and using and aftermarket ECU (not Motec, but I can't remember which one). Pics are up on the Wisconsin Bimmers site, which I will try to find and link. That build has in my opinion a very high likelihood of getting done and getting done well. Again, not so pricey because my friend does the kind of work necessary to customize an E39 M5's engine bay to accommodate twin turbos for a living.

--Peter

PS: Here is the link: http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...ge-8?hl=rekiii

- - - Updated - - -

A couple of pics:

http://s1193.photobucket.com/user/REKIII10/media/e39%20M5/Turbo%20Build/PassSideHeader1_zps88d5848a.jpg.html

http://s1193.photobucket.com/user/REKIII10/media/e39%20M5/Turbo%20Build/Framehole4_zpsb699cb9e.jpg.html

[prom3]

thanks for link.

[philly98540]

That wissconsin one looks like it may actually get running. Some innovative thinking.

[BigM62]

Peter, what is the update on the turbo'd S62? The thread died on the link you provide.

[herrubermensch]

Peter, what is the update on the turbo'd S62? The thread died on the link you provide.

Still going, slowly but steadily. Bob will update it when there is something to update, but I assure you, it is still going.

--Peter

[BigM62]

Still going, slowly but steadily. Bob will update it when there is something to update, but I assure you, it is still going.

--Peter

Thanks. I can't wait, it sounds like an epic build.

[imae30driver]

There is a guy on here called texhun who has just turbo'd an e39 540i wagon. Single rear mounted turbo.

also, my e34 540i/6 has a hollow dash and the m60 with some work can be moved back more than 12"-18" easily with a new fire wall. Major surgery but will open tons of room for turbo's.

[5mall5nail5]

Yea, and what's you HP to $ ratio?

525 hp apparently

- - - Updated - - -

Mine is not quite. . I made 3 weeks ago I made 510 rwhp with RK Tunes, but we kept destroying (3) belts because my Dinan idler bracket kept moving under boost. Just had a new 2x thicker bracket made and hit 15 psi. I find the combo of a strong V8+a S/C to be fun. It is not 900 rwhp, but I am happy (for now).

Wait, it was 525 rwhp last week

[BigM62]

I am so blessed you keep following me Jon. I upped the boost from my last dyno by 3-4 psi, hence the difference. Went from a 3.5" Votech pully to 3". Might try a 2.5", if it is not too small. Curious how much hp/tq. you make on 13-14 psi.Happy Thanksgiving.

[litemup]

I am so blessed you keep following me Jon. I upped the boost from my last dyno by 3-4 psi, hence the difference. Went from a 3.5" Votech pully to 3". Might try a 2.5", if it is not too small. Curious how much hp/tq. you make on 13-14 psi.Happy Thanksgiving.

My stock s62 on 8-9 made 546whp. Just sayin. Crank it up! 3.48 pulley with an ess kit.