E39 Timing Chain/Guides Concerns

[TR6N]

I have a 2000 E39 540i 6Sport that is currently listed for sale. The car is a two owner adult owned/garaged/documented service history with 76400 miles. Only mod done to the car was to remove the silencer-otherwise bone stock.The car runs perfectly-no odd sounds or stumbles or service codes of any kind at all.Car has always been on synthetic oil with changes at recommended intervals.
A potential buyer for the car reported that his talks with mechanics had raised concerns over problems with this model requiring a very expensive (@3000) service for timing chain replacement with-in not too many more miles. I had never heard of this being an issue for a properly maintained car with no other problems. In researching the issue I am now aware of the plastic guides issue and can see how that could cause problems if the engine overheats or has lubrication issues ( and very expensive repairs as feared). I found many people reporting going 175/200/250k with no such problems and it doesn't appear that BMW even specs a timing chain replacement at any service interval that I could find.
Is this something that would cause concern or keep you from buying an E39 with the V8? Other than inspecting the oil pan for plastic bits is there any other reasonable ( not tearing down the whole front of the engine for no apparent reason) way to try to determine if there is a potential problem? Any tips or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

[540iEP]

Is this something that could be done as preventative maintenance, sure? But with not even 100k miles, no sounds, and if no evidence of failing guides, I'd say a mechanic spooked a potential buyer or at the very least informed them of a means of attempting a lower buying price. If you know, for sure, there's no guide plastics to be found in the pan, and all sounds well, and you have a meticulous owner's history, stand firm in price...

[edjack]

The buyer pays for PPI. If he's spooked, let his mechanic remove the lower oil pan to check for debris.

Why are you selling it? Are you a broker?

[Aryana]

Tell em your car isn't for them and they should find something else. Sounds like a well maintained car that has low miles.

[JimLev]

It's a crap shoot, all depends on how it was driven and the frequency of the oil changes.
You said it was done by the book which is 15K miles, many of us think this is too long and do it at 7.5K or less.
I did mine at 141K only because I had the front off to replace some leaking gaskets and powder coat the front covers.
My guides and chain were OK, probably could have easily made 200+K, however the front was off and it was just another ~$200 for all of the guides.
The timing chain should last almost forever. I've seen motors that had the guides worn so bad that the chain came off the sprocket and the chain still looked good.
A friend has the same year as you, 200K+ on his car, the motor has never been apart. It's quiet as a mouse.

[TR6N]

The buyer pays for PPI. If he's spooked, let his mechanic remove the lower oil pan to check for debris.

Why are you selling it? Are you a broker?

No, I've owned the car for almost seven years. Bought from a lifelong friend/car nut who bought it new. He was moving to a 550 and I commented that the 540 was barely broken in with only 68K on it ( he ended up very disappointed with the 550 and only kept it about 2 years). Ended up buying it off him and it has been an exceptional car, but only very light use since I've had it. Also have a TR6 that we love running but you have to pick your days pretty carefully as it has no air/limited heat and is almost impossible to bear with the top up. Drove a Z3 with the 6cyl and was pretty impressed and thought it would open up longer cruising options with a roadster. Before you suggest selling the TR6 I have way too much into it to ever recover and I really enjoy the simplicity of it by myself/on the right days.
Buyer brought up this timing chain issue and thought I would inquire here as so many owners past and present frequent the forums. Figured I could get some good feedback on whether this is a real concern or not.

[Mannyf540]

Well that is one of the biggest misconceptions, we've gone back and forth on the timing chain guides issue. Most are done a preventive maintenance. But it all depends on how the car was serviced, as far as oil changes.

If there are no plastic guide pieces in the oil pan it's fine. I've been told my car is at the end of its life with only 100,000 miles on it. We have some members close to or over 200,000 miles on original guides. Unfortunately we only have bad cases reported rather than positive.

[JimLev]

To add to what Manny said, no one typically takes the front off the motor to look at them and then put it back on. Over on Roadfly there was a guy with 350K on his original engine, never been apart except for valve cover and intake gaskets.

Here are a few pics to show you the wear at 141K, I could have left them in if I really wanted to, almost did but the guys here started giving me static about it so I changed them.

[TR6N]

It's a crap shoot, all depends on how it was driven and the frequency of the oil changes.
You said it was done by the book which is 15K miles, many of us think this is too long and do it at 7.5K or less.
I did mine at 141K only because I had the front off to replace some leaking gaskets and powder coat the front covers.
My guides and chain were OK, probably could have easily made 200+K, however the front was off and it was just another ~$200 for all of the guides.
The timing chain should last almost forever. I've seen motors that had the guides worn so bad that the chain came off the sprocket and the chain still looked good.
A friend has the same year as you, 200K+ on his car, the motor has never been apart. It's quiet as a mouse.

Previous owner had the oil (synthetic) changed every year once it was outside of the more frequent free service intervals-works out to about every 7-8k. Has been changed annually for the last 7 years which works out to about every 1k. Would estimate that +/- 90% of the driving was highway miles. When I said recommended service intervals I was referring to what I had seen about annual changes even if the miles are under the guidelines due to the possible absorbtion of moisture. Probably a little less an issue in a heated garage but why fool with it?

[agentrnge]

This post really puts my mind at ease about not doing my timing chain guides as PM. phew.

[Skwisgaar]

178K and mine are fine. I just checked them out while installing new gaskets. The car has always has Mobil 1 15/50 changed at 7500 mile intervals.

[spencercat]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it is usually my advice. But one thing I don't know is whether the valves can be damaged in normal use when the guides go?

I lost my timing chain guides at 166k miles. The noise it made when it happened was noticeable, something I could not ignore. The chain jumped a tooth, threw the P00011(?) codes, but was still driveable to my mechanic. After the repair, my engine still makes diesel sounds and has a noisy vanos, so I am not sure that noise is an indicator of failing guides.

[Cyrix2k]

@skwisgaar - you have the M62, not the M62TU which seems to be more prone to guide failure. For the record, I have 225k or so on my M62 with the original guides and it runs quietly.

[TR6N]

Seeing the heft of those chains i can see why they are not a scheduled service-looks like you could lift the car with them! Both of the relatively high miles set of guides pictured above look good with minimal wear it would seem. Guess if the car is maintained it should not really be an issue.
Thanks to all.

[Cyrix2k]

Seeing the heft of those chains i can see why they are not a scheduled service-looks like you could lift the car with them! Both of the relatively high miles set of guides pictured above look good with minimal wear it would seem. Guess if the car is maintained it should not really be an issue.
Thanks to all.

It's not the chains that fail but the the plastic guides that get brittle with age. They tend to break into large chunks and the chain starts rubbing on metal. However, there is no service interval for guide replacement and I wouldn't reduce the price of the car because it has original guides.

[auaq]

Yeah, it's not the chains that's the matter here but the plastic guides on which the chains ride upon. As Cyrix2k has said the M62Tu are more prone than on the regular M62 engines. And before bimmerbreaker chime in, yes, there are reports of M62 non-tu guide failures but less often compared to the tu engine.

[Mannyf540]

Yeah, it's not the chains that's the matter here but the plastic guides on which the chains ride upon. As Cyrix2k has said the M62Tu are more prone than on the regular M62 engines. And before bimmerbreaker chime in, yes, there are reports of M62 non-tu guide failures but less often compared to the tu engine.

Don't you drive an I6 ?! Just say !!

[auaq]

Don't you drive an I6 ?! Just say !!

Sometimes Lord Auaq aka Lord of 6 isn't always evil. Just saying ....

Just trying to help out the community here.

[bmxben14]

Just chiming in.. I just replaced mine on my 99 m62tu. @105k. Not exactly sure how the previous owner drove it. But for the 10k miles Iv owned it I like to get on it once in a while( like it should be). Noticeable noise when the plastic finally goes. For me it was the center U- guide.

So I'd like to agree that how's it's driven affects it for sure along with the type of oil and how long between changes.

And yeah, a very expensive job if you pay a shop to do it. One shop quoted me almost $4500!! Screw that...

[Aryana]

How many hours did it take you to DIY?

[bmxben14]

Umm. Like 20-25 hours maybe?. A few hours over a couple of days. It actually took longer to take apart then to put back together. And then waiting on parts and gaskets. Oh and cleaning, a few hours cleaning everything inside and out. Really wasn't too bad.

[Aryana]

Thanks...sounds totally doable in a weekend if you had all the parts on hand. You need special tools to time the cams as well, right? For $4500 I bet you could buy all brand new tools to get the job done and still have lots left over to buy all the parts you'd need.

I have an I6 but I'm sure I'll end up with a V8 powered car someday.

[geargrinder]

I think a good distinction to make is between cold startup rattle and other noise. I do still have a tiny start rattle, even after tensioner & solenoid checkvalve replacement, so I am guessing the checkvalves under the heads that Jim found are the culprit, but will hope regular oil changes and other good engine hygiene that it keeps to that and no worse.

$4500 seems a bit crazy. A lot would depend on the shop and if they are M62 savvy or not, and there's not a ton that are even in Bimmerland. I'm sure a pro who's done a lot of them can do it pretty quickly if he knows all the tricks.

[philly98540]

My M62 (6/1998) center guide went at 120K. Small plastic tab that secures the center u-guide plastic liner broke off and allowed it to slide. Wear on all guide plastics was not bad at all. It was the brittle failure of one tiny tab.

I drive my car hard, here and there, and use M1 0W-40 changed every 7.5K. I bought the car with 31K on it back in 2001, so it was dealer serviced originally and likely had 10K mile oil changes with regular oil.

If the guides start to go bad, you will hear it well before the chain jumps and causes valves to hit pistons. That is, unless you are not keen on listening to your car. So, no need to do these as a PM. I'd say wait till they fail before you repair. I actually drove my car for a week or so (very gingerly) with the center guide being bad. I do not advise this! LOL.

[geargrinder]

That is, unless you are not keen on listening to your car.

I can tell by ear when my wife's A3 needs the oil topped off so that shouldn't be a problem...