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Thread: AMSOIL Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid

  1. #1
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    AMSOIL Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid

    Several Z3 owners like the feel of AMSOIL Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid 5W-30.
    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission-fluid/manual/manual-synchromesh-transmission-fluid-5w-30/?code=MTFQT-EA

    However, AMSOIL says:
    Synchromesh fluid meets no manufacture specifications or viscosity requirement for your BMW and would not be advised to use.

    AMSOIL re 5W30.jpg


    AMSOIL's Note [3] says that an ATF should be used. I use Royal Purple's Synchromax because it is a MTF that is ATF-based, and RP says "Synchromax is recommended for manual transmissions that specify an automatic transmission fluid."
    http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/produ...mission-fluid/



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    I put Amsoil Synchromesh in my car about 8 months ago. At first I thought it was perfection - the shifts were smooth and I could easily get into 1st and 2nd gear. Now, 8 months later, those effects are gone. I'm considering switching back the BMW fluid.
    Cyrus Mistry

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    I used mobil 1 synthetic atf and a quart of amsoil atf. Cold shifting is soooo much better. My fluid was bad, though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy147 View Post
    I used mobil 1 synthetic atf and a quart of amsoil atf.
    Is that two quarts?

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    RP Synchromax is the way to go.

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    Vintage42, this is a topic that has seen a lot of activity over the years. There are other threads on this topic that already cover this "issue" in great detail. I suggest you look through the "Manual Transmission Gear Oil" section of the Manifesto and join in on one or more of the threads listed there where appropriate instead of continuing this thread.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 10-23-2013 at 09:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenFenner View Post
    Vintage42, this is a topic that has seen a lot of activity over the years. There are other threads on this topic that already cover this "issue" in great detail. I suggest you look through the "Manual Transmission Fluid" section of the Manifesto and join in on one or more of the threads listed there where appropriate instead of continuing this thread.
    Benfenner, I have studied this issue for the past year in great detail here. I suggest you pay attention to what AMSOIL says about their own product. The most factual post I found was this one comparing viscosities:
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...6#post23307686
    But nowhere did I find where anyone had asked AMSOIL why they did not recommend any of their products for the Z3 manual transmission. Their information seemed worth a stand-alone thread. Do you disagree?
    Last edited by Vintage42; 10-23-2013 at 08:20 PM.

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    My apologies. I've added it to the Manifesto.

    Nothing wholly new, but words from the horses mouth are always relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vintage42 View Post
    Is that two quarts?
    I used one full quart of Amsoil ATF because I got it for free. Mobil 1 ATF was just for top off. Less than 2 qts. Both were Dexron III certified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vintage42 View Post
    Several Z3 owners like the feel of AMSOIL Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid 5W-30.
    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission-fluid/manual/manual-synchromesh-transmission-fluid-5w-30/?code=MTFQT-EA

    However, AMSOIL says:
    AMSOIL re 5W30.jpg


    AMSOIL's Note [3] says that an ATF should be used. I use Royal Purple's Synchromax because it is a MTF that is ATF-based, and RP says "Synchromax is recommended for manual transmissions that specify an automatic transmission fluid."
    http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/produ...mission-fluid/


    I have said in several of the threads that I have started that Amsoil is a company that is trying to get in the good graces with the manufactures. So, they will not offer a replacement fluid when the manufacture recommends life time fluid ;-) As to them saying to use ATF, well yes you can and yes it is close to factory. However, the factory fill's main goal is to get the transmission through the warranty time frame and then provide the best fuel economy. neither of which do I consider to be best for the health of the transmission. I have probably sold more MTF to the Z3 community then any other Amsoil distributor out there and most have had a great experience with the products. The ones that didn't either had pre-existing transmission damage (so purchasing Amsoil to solve a mechanical issue), lived in an extremely hot climate (Texas), or tracked the car with high horse power. For anyone that uses the MTF and is not happy with it then I have moved them to the heavier Manual Transmission and Transaxle fluid.

    Quote Originally Posted by cngizbleevng View Post
    I wish that you could tag me in posts like facebook ;-) that would make it a lot easier to find questions :-)

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by cfmistry View Post
    I put Amsoil Synchromesh in my car about 8 months ago. At first I thought it was perfection - the shifts were smooth and I could easily get into 1st and 2nd gear. Now, 8 months later, those effects are gone. I'm considering switching back the BMW fluid.
    I am sure that it felt good for 10-15k mi or until the weather got hot? If so then you need the thicker fluid for your climate (note thicker fluid is clunky for the first few miles but then will be silky smooth) Let me know if you would like to try the Manual transmission and transaxle fluid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vintage42 View Post
    Benfenner, I have studied this issue for the past year in great detail here. I suggest you pay attention to what AMSOIL says about their own product. The most factual post I found was this one comparing viscosities:
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...6#post23307686
    But nowhere did I find where anyone had asked AMSOIL why they did not recommend any of their products for the Z3 manual transmission. Their information seemed worth a stand-alone thread. Do you disagree?
    I have to laugh when I talk to Amsoil about their own products :-) They do not do real world testing, so they play the "looks like this one on paper"

    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy147 View Post
    I used one full quart of Amsoil ATF because I got it for free. Mobil 1 ATF was just for top off. Less than 2 qts. Both were Dexron III certified.
    Total that should go in is 1.4 - 1.6 qts depending on how much you actually get out ;-)

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    Something like that. It was less than 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy147 View Post
    Something like that. It was less than 2
    :-) details, lol.

    I forgot to mention one thing, the factory fill is not life time I don't care what anyone thinks ;-) As long as you are changing your fluid you will be way ahead of someone that leaves the factory fill in, regardless of fluid type or manufacture!

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    My personal feeling is that these cars are getting old enough that the manufacturer's recommendation is becoming less important, if not irrelevant. Lubricants have certainly gotten better since the cars were first produced, but I suspect the lubricant manufacturers feel there is little market incentive to qualify their products to older standards.

    Additionally, the knowledge-base about the cars has grown over the years. Remember, BMW chose rubber seat bushings that turn to goo, plastic cooling system pieces that explode, and RSB bushings that allow the car to tear itself apart. All of these probably seemed like good designs at the time, but seem less so a decade later. While I consider the OEM recommendations, I also rely heavily on experienced users, such as those found here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2kredz3 View Post
    ... Amsoil is a company that is trying to get in the good graces with the manufactures. So, they will not offer a replacement fluid when the manufacture recommends life time fluid... Total that should go in is 1.4 - 1.6 qts depending on how much you actually get out ;-)
    I was an AMSOIL dealer, like you, many years ago, from 1987-1991. I don't know what you mean about AMSOIL not making a fluid for the BMW transmission because BMW has a lifetime fill and might be offended. AMSOIL does make a fluid that they recommend for BMW, and most forum members will doubt that it hurts AMOIL's good graces with BMW.

    The email from AMSOIL Technical Services says that their Synchromesh 5W-30 is just not made for the BMW manual transmission, and to use the correct AMSOIL product with product code ATF, which is their Signature Series Multi-Vehicle Synthetic ATF with Product Code ATFQT-EA:
    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...?code=ATFQT-EA
    We are free to put anything we want in our transmissions, especially if it feels good to us. But let's be clear that's why we are doing it.

    The Bentley Manual says the transmission takes 1.1 liters of ATF, which is 1.16 quarts. When I replaced my fluid, my fingertip touched the new fluid at the level of the filler hole after I pumped in 1 quart, so I did not open a second bottle. If 1.4 or 1.6 quarts were pumped in, there would surely be a messy overflow.
    Last edited by Vintage42; 10-24-2013 at 11:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2kredz3 View Post
    :-) details, lol.

    I forgot to mention one thing, the factory fill is not life time I don't care what anyone thinks ;-) As long as you are changing your fluid you will be way ahead of someone that leaves the factory fill in, regardless of fluid type or manufacture!
    I pumped it in till it came out of the hole...

    My car was on four jackstands so the car would be level.

    +1 on the factory fill! It's junk. Change it out. My tranny feels sooo much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vintage42 View Post
    I was an AMSOIL dealer, like you, many years ago, from 1987-1991. I don't know what you mean about AMSOIL not making a fluid for the BMW transmission because BMW has a lifetime fill and might be offended. AMSOIL does make a fluid that they recommend for BMW, and most forum members will doubt that it hurts AMOIL's good graces with BMW.

    The email from AMSOIL Technical Services says that their Synchromesh 5W-30 is just not made for the BMW manual transmission, and to use the correct AMSOIL product with product code ATF, which is their Signature Series Multi-Vehicle Synthetic ATF with Product Code ATFQT-EA:
    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...?code=ATFQT-EA
    We are free to put anything we want in our transmissions, especially if it feels good to us. But let's be clear that's why we are doing it.

    The Bentley Manual says the transmission takes 1.1 liters of ATF, which is 1.16 quarts. When I replaced my fluid, my fingertip touched the new fluid at the level of the filler hole after I pumped in 1 quart, so I did not open a second bottle. If 1.4 or 1.6 quarts were pumped in, there would surely be a messy overflow.
    a lot has changed in Amsoil since 91', I have been a distributor since 99' and have seen the company change more then I care to share. I have done back to back testing on a handfull of vehicles with all the products that people recommend on this board. I have taken fluid tempuratures in as controlled of an environment has possible and regardless of manufacture ATF fluid keeps the transmission 10-15 degrees warmer than any of the MTF based fluid. Not to mention fluid life, which an ATF is basically no good after 30k mi, MTF still showed a good saftey margin at the 30k mi sampling.

    Out of the hundreds of cars I have changed fluid on only 5 took less then 1.4qts and all of them were 4 cyl cars ;-) but they still took 1.25qts.

    I do not recommend Amsoil because it "feels" better, nor do I recommend it just because I am a Distributor for their products. I recommend it because I have done the testing to feel comfortable telling people it works. Right now I am doing long term testing on fluids in my 135i and I can tell you right now the MTF simply does not work in the 6 speed. I burnt the MTF in less then 1200mi, after that I moved to the thicker manual trans and transaxle, which did great at the track but was horrible on the street. Anyway, I digress.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2kredz3 View Post
    ... I do not recommend Amsoil because it "feels" better... I recommend it because I have done the testing to feel comfortable telling people it works...
    Why do you recommend the 5W-30 fluid which AMSOIL does not recommend, and why don't you like the ATF that AMSOIL does recommend? Are you testing by "feel", and by what "works"? What does that mean? Have you given AMSOIL the benefit of your findings?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kredz3 View Post
    a lot has changed in Amsoil since 91', I have been a distributor since 99' and have seen the company change more then I care to share...
    I think you are referring to the sales and compensation policies within a multi-level marketing organization. This does not affect their excellent products, which are manufactured to meet specs for various applications.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kredz3 View Post
    ... only 5 took less then 1.4 qts and all of them were 4 cyl cars ;-) but they still took 1.25 qts...
    Does my 1997 4-cyl car have a different transmission from a 1997 6-cyl car? The Bentley Manual says they both have a Getrag S5D 250G with a capacity of 1.1 liters. Is that correct?
    Maybe they hold the same 1.1 liters, but if you pump until you see overflow coming out, you will have put in 1.25 qts.
    Last edited by Vintage42; 10-24-2013 at 08:22 PM.

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    LOL, welcome to Kelly's world. The common complaint with Ams MTF, which is too thick, is stiff crunchy COLD shifts. Somehow, this has morphed into happening only on track cars and in Texas, and can be fixed by going to even thicker oil.


    /.randy

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    Randy, as someone who appreciates your attention to detail, and someone who's getting ready to fill his transmission with Amsoil 5w-30 "Manual Synchromesh Fluid" after extensive research, I would love to hear your explanation for why you feel it is "too thick" when the viscosity ratings are thinner than the OEM fluid specs?

    Or are you talking about a different Amsoil fluid?

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    When I bought my Z3M Roadster I had all the fluids changed. I was told my car had GL4 or GLS in it’s trans. It was very hard to shift into 1st when cold and still very notchy in all gears when warm and the outside temp was at or below freezing at that time. As I did not personally change the fluid I cannot say what is in the trans, I was told it was ATF/Dextron III that did improve the shifting.

    Now I have questions about what is the best fluid for my 5 Speed trans? And would like to put it in.

    I also have gone to AMSOIL to get a high quality fluid to protect my transmission and received the same answer you received Vintage42!

    NO AMSOIL Product Recommended

    Thank you for starting this thread!!! I also have an AMSOIL distributor at work and am tired of the “I feel and this works” incessant yammering.

    I have a hard time putting anything into my transmission that the manufacturer said its not recommended in bold italic underline!


    This is a very convoluted and confusing topic for me, one that I have been watching for over a year in many forums and on several boards with out any real answer.

    I have several times wanted to start a thread that has VERY strict rules about the posts and posters.

    A: Poster must own a Manual 5 speed Z3 or Z3M themselves.

    B: Poster must change the trans fluid themselves.

    What fluids have you run in your transmission?

    A brief description of what you thought of them?


    But I have not because I don’t think that we would get to a final definitive answer anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFenner View Post
    Randy, as someone who appreciates your attention to detail, and someone who's getting ready to fill his transmission with Amsoil 5w-30 "Manual Synchromesh Fluid" after extensive research, I would love to hear your explanation for why you feel it is "too thick" when the viscosity ratings are thinner than the OEM fluid specs?

    Or are you talking about a different Amsoil fluid?

    Randy what would you put in the 5 speed manual trans?

    I too trust your opinion and your attention to detail!

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    This is obviously not a technical analysis but my 24k mile ZF 5-speed was notchy and hard to shift with the factory fill. Filled it with Synchromesh and the difference is night and day.

    I was shocked a fluid could improve shift quality that much. Is my transmission going to fall apart? Because it "feels" like it's taking a lot less abuse now.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenFenner View Post
    Randy, as someone who appreciates your attention to detail, and someone who's getting ready to fill his transmission with Amsoil 5w-30 "Manual Synchromesh Fluid" after extensive research, I would love to hear your explanation for why you feel it is "too thick" when the viscosity ratings are thinner than the OEM fluid specs?
    What makes you think Amsoil is thinner than OE? This post says Amsoil is thicker than OE:
    Amsoil MTF is too thick for cold climates. It is significantly thicker than the stock BMW "lifetime" fluid...
    Amsoil MTF
    Vicosity at 40C = 47.1 cSt
    Viscosity at 100C = 9.6 cSt


    BMW MTF-LT-1 (Stock Original Fluid)
    Vicosity at 40C = 37.5 cSt
    Viscosity at 100C = 7.5 cSt

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...6#post23307686
    Amsoil's Data Sheet shows numbers about the same as in the post: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2080.pdf
    Last edited by Vintage42; 10-25-2013 at 07:57 AM.

  24. #24
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    Vintage, I was going by the specs posted earlier in that thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2kredz3 View Post
    OEM Fluid Specs: MTF-LT-2

    VIS40 = 58
    VIS100 = 10.6

    [Amsoil] 5w30 Manual Synchromesh Fluid

    VIS40 = 48.3
    VIS100 = 9.7

    It seems we have a conflict between what the OEM specs are supposed to be... Did they originally call for the thinner fluid, and then change the recommendation down the road?
    Last edited by BenFenner; 10-25-2013 at 09:33 AM.

  25. #25
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    This agrees with the specs quoted in Post #23 for BMW MTF-LT-1 which was the OE factory fill:
    BMW MTF-LT-1
    cSt@40 c 37.5
    cSt@100 c 7.5
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=706459
    BMW MTF-LT-1 is apparently no longer made.
    BMW MTF-LT-2 is made for BMW by Pentosin, for ZF and Getrag manual transmissions 1997-on:
    http://www.pentosin.net/f_transmissionfluid.asp

    The VIS40 for MTF-LT-2 is 38, about the same as that of the OE MTF-LT-1:
    http://www.pentosin.net/specsheets/Pentosin_MTF-2.pdf

    The VIS40 for Amsoil 5W-30 is 48, ten points higher than MTF-LT-1 and MTF-LT-2:
    http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2080.pdf
    Last edited by Vintage42; 10-25-2013 at 09:57 AM.

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