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Thread: Let's talk wheel studs

  1. #1
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    Let's talk wheel studs

    I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the 90mm Vorschlag studs, using Work lug nuts...but I'm hung up on the install part of it and wanted opinions from those who have used a stud conversion over the years. I swap wheels quite often (at least 2-3 times a year), so I'm well aware of the stress put on the traditional lug bolts and threads. Basically this is what's prompted me to convert. I just can't get past using red loctite and 30 ft lbs of torque and assuming they will never back out. This seems to be the universal way of installing, but still I'm skeptical. Please post up your experience/knowledge that might be of relevance. Thanks!

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    2-3 times a year is not a lot! I probably switch 30+ times/year on the race car. I only had one stud ever back out, and that was after probably after more than 100 wheel swaps. Loctite. It works.

    And don't fool yourself, there's no reason why the studs are any better than the bolts as far as the stresses are concerned. Just comes down to materials, and the OEM materials are top-notch. The reason to switch to studs is convenience, and the more often you switch, the more value this has!
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  3. #3
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    ^ That's correct. There is no real fastening difference between bolts and studs if graded the same. The advantage is the ease of wheel changes with studs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coupe du jour View Post
    ... I swap wheels quite often (at least 2-3 times a year), so I'm well aware of the stress put on the traditional lug bolts and threads. Basically this is what's prompted me to convert...
    I swapped my wheels 2-3 times in January in changing tires and shocks/struts. I used the toolkit's hole alignment tool, and started the bolts by hand. I tightened with with the toolkit's lug wrench. I see no stress on the OE bolts. Why do you see stress??

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshS View Post
    ... The reason to switch to studs is convenience, and the more often you switch, the more value this has!
    The toolkit has a hole alignment tool, and I bought a second threaded tool for $10 from an online BMW vendor. One tool made it easy, and with tools in two of the holes, it is really easy to put the wheel back on. I don't see the problem.
    Last edited by Vintage42; 03-11-2013 at 08:27 PM.

  5. #5
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    The stress the mention is the re-torquing of the lug nuts/bolts. Nothing to with removing/installing the wheel.

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    I read a couple of things about work-hardening the studs (with a lug 'bolt in' type setup, ie the way they are from the factory) and/or inner threads distorting over time...and that lug bolts are considered 'wear items' where nuts not so much. Wheel studs and lug nuts seem to be a more logical arrangement to me and that most car co's got rid of them as a cost saving measure over the years. Again, just what I read...could be a bunch of nothin about nothin...that's why I'm asking. As for the loctite, I appreciate the feedback...seems to be the consensus. More than anything, I'm just tired of lining up and dealing with cumbersome bolts. Plus my Works have very deep lug holes that are recessed in openings that are barely larger than the thinnest wall socket I could get my hands on. I don't know that a longer open-ended nut will help that, but it doesn't seem that it could be any more aggravating than it already is. Thanks for comments guys!
    Last edited by coupe du jour; 03-11-2013 at 09:33 PM.

  7. #7
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    I've been running studs for years and have not had a single issue. I just decided to get new Vorshalg studs recently because I added spacers. You'll be good.
    -Joe

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    I have Vorshlag studs and have been very happy with them. In fact, I installed them on my 99 M Coupe 6/2009. I removed them and reinstalled them on my 02 M Coupe 11/2009. I've been running them since then and have had no issues, they've never backed out. I see no reason, other than cost possibly, not to have wheel studs. Running 75mm front, 90mm rear.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuestMCoupe View Post
    I've been running studs for years and have not had a single issue. I just decided to get new Vorshalg studs recently because I added spacers. You'll be good.
    Thanks man, good to know. It's not really a cheap investment to not know going into it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I have Vorshlag studs and have been very happy with them. In fact, I installed them on my 99 M Coupe 6/2009. I removed them and reinstalled them on my 02 M Coupe 11/2009. I've been running them since then and have had no issues, they've never backed out. I see no reason, other than cost possibly, not to have wheel studs.
    Thanks brotha!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by coupe du jour View Post
    Thanks man, good to know. It's not really a cheap investment to not know going into it.
    No problem and I totally understand.

    PS: I want your wheels! I loved them.
    -Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuestMCoupe View Post
    No problem and I totally understand.

    PS: I want your wheels! I loved them.
    I quote only because the reply button comes and goes, Anyone contemplating studs needs to read up on spacers, I believe there are more stud failures because of poor spacer fitment than can be blamed on studs alone. For example some hubs will not allow 5MM spacers and some of the longer ones 75-90MM need a spacer because of the non-threaded shoulder. I too have the Vorschlag studs and have also only had one back out in 3 years. All I did was clean the threads and use the locktite provided and also the Allen wrench provided 5.5MM I believe.

  13. #13
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    If you are goint to have studs, then make the jump to bullet nose. Never cross thread, fast easy mounts. And yes, red loctite will hold them in place.
    Dan "PbFut" Rose

  14. #14
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    I have 75mm ARD wheels studs. It also freaked me out a bit that they are supposed to be tightened with such little force (I think my instructions only mentioned 15ft.lbs of torque).

    Didn't have any issues so far though. I guess if you torque your wheels right, there really is no way the stud could back out. I imagine it can only happen when you remove the wheel.

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  15. #15
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    I made the mistake of buying cheaper studs initially (non-bullet nosed, uncoated from TC Kline) and they started to look bad after a few years. No issues with them (other than cosmetic blemishes), but I decided to replace them anyway with Vorshlag 90mm studs. Both sets required loctite and seemingly minimal amounts of tightening for installation, but I've had zero problems with both sets.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PbFut View Post
    If you are goint to have studs, then make the jump to bullet nose. Never cross thread, fast easy mounts. And yes, red loctite will hold them in place.
    Seconded- this is very good advice.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunzOut View Post
    The stress the mention is the re-torquing of the lug nuts/bolts. Nothing to with removing/installing the wheel.
    Yes, nothing to do with one's own effort in removing/installing the wheel.
    So, what is the deal about stress on the lug bolts?

    When a shop put on my new tires, their air impact wrench made it impossible for me to back the lug bolts out with the toolkit wrench.
    Did the shop over-stress the lug bolts?
    I took the car back and had them loosen the lug bolts, and then retighten them by hand with the toolkit wrench.
    I have since removed the wheels a couple of times, and the lug bolts seem fine.
    Last edited by Vintage42; 03-12-2013 at 08:42 PM.

  18. #18
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    I will disagree with a few here. By design, the classic threaded-in studs are weaker in shear loads than a like bolt. Any stud that seats by jamming the root thread, tightened in until it binds, will have a massive stress riser right at the juncture of a major cross sectional change. This stress riser is in alignment with the brake disc shear plane.



    There are studs out there that try very hard to eliminate this problem. Bimmerworld's "Premium" for one. They have a flat square flange that seats against the hub, and then a generous radius undercut before the threads start. This removes the bending load from the critical root thread. Removes all bending loads from the thread section. This comes at a cost of less thread engagement due to the finite depth of the hub.



    Of course, the *proper* fix is to spotface the back of the hubs, and bore the holes out for pressed in studs.



    EDIT: Okay, how in the F%$#$% do you keep this thing from mashing multiple paragraphs into one long run-on bunch of gibberish? I have enough problems being clear without this editor removing all of the formatting!



    Edit2: And of course it didn't mash that one.
    Last edited by rf900rkw; 03-12-2013 at 09:32 PM.


    /.randy

  19. #19
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    No one makes a hub with pressed-in studs, do they? That would definitely be the best solution.

  20. #20
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    Make your own but what a waste of time. Just how many studs or even bolts have you seen busted. Was it the bolt/stud failing or poor/wrong wheel install? You are over thinking this whole thing.
    Dan "PbFut" Rose

  21. #21
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    I'm guessing most failures are due to people installing small spacers without using HUB extenders.

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  22. #22
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    Which follows exactly what I'm saying. You don't hear of lug bolt breakage from small spacers. You don't have vendors recalling their lug bolts. You don't have other vendors offering redesigned lug bolts to minimize the stress risers.



    Bottom line, the classic threaded-in studs are weaker. This is an engineering fact. You just have to decide if they are too weak for you. It's all about optimizing the comprimise to your needs.
    Last edited by rf900rkw; 03-13-2013 at 10:58 AM.


    /.randy

  23. #23
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a stud w/ nut take up more room in the wheel than a bolt? If you're already tight for space, this might not help.

    I've never used studs on this car, so I'm not speaking from experience here, just trying to think it through.

    -Todd

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokijibber View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a stud w/ nut take up more room in the wheel than a bolt? If you're already tight for space, this might not help.

    I've never used studs on this car, so I'm not speaking from experience here, just trying to think it through.
    Not necessarily. It really depends on the stock bolts and how large the head on it is. In my case, I am using narrow tuner nuts, which make the stud/nut combo smaller than the bolt. I still have to use a narrow socket to fit in the small holes of the work wheels though.

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by luciano136 View Post
    Not necessarily. It really depends on the stock bolts and how large the head on it is. In my case, I am using narrow tuner nuts, which make the stud/nut combo smaller than the bolt. I still have to use a narrow socket to fit in the small holes of the work wheels though.
    So is your lug nut still 17mm? And where do you look for a "thinner" socket? If aftermarket wheels have a narrower channel, I need to know what to consider as I'm looking

    -Todd

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