Stop Wasting Money on Seafoam!

[Meric]

I've put seafoam into my e46 and friends e46 and both definantly made some improvements not only idling but it was more responsive. So I dont agree that Seafoam doesnt do anything....

[e30ncsu]

Nope, that was in your head. Read the thread.

[Meric]

It's not in my head man. Dont be so ignorant. Everybody knows how their car goes and when something actually works you can tell how much it improved.

[e30ncsu]

I gave the engineering background, reasoning, explanation, and peer reviewed studies for why it doesn't work. It's in your head, doesn't do anything. If you would like to respond to any of the explanations or studies I have posted, please do so.

The walnut shell method I posted is how BMW removes deposits.

(Also, if you're going to call me ignorant please spell "definitely" correctly)

[bimmershark]

Dude I understand why your doing this but you won't change everyone's mind so.why go so hard and get so defensive .. even.if its a placebo all your studies will never change what a random person experiences ... would never use it on a newer car and frankly its been a long time since I even picked a can.up

[GasTurbine]

...and using a top tier gasoline...

[sigh] Your post, while lacking any real tangible data, seemed to make sense...until I read this!

If you want clean combustion chambers just run a couple gallons of water through your engine at high rpm.

DONT DO THIS! You will bend/break every con-rod in your engine.

[e30ncsu]

In what context did I use that? By top tier I probably meant any of the name brands with decent additive packages. So in the US, that's most of what you will see.

Water injection is done all of the time in engines. You're not just dumping water in, you are aerosolizing and injecting it. Water vapor mixture is compressible. But media blasting is the only real way to remove deposits (the link I posted is for walnut blasting on an e90)

[Elvis T]

I saw this thread come up again and took a look at some things again.

I'm just your typical engineer that doesn't take anything at its word without my own independent research.....

Convincing an engineer that things work differently in the real word than they do in tests is one of the hardest things to do. Being able to understand this and get past it is what separates your typical engineer from a lead engineer.

There are three main causes of deposits:
-Reactions of oils with oxygen to form sludge and varnishes
-Reaction of NOx with oils to form sludge and varnishes
-Reactions of sulfur and oil to form acids that degrade the oil.

You state that those are the main causes of deposits, not all deposits. Are you also saying that there is never a situation in a vehicle where there is a deposit that the solvent naphtha will fix? Don't get me wrong and say that there are other additives that work better, because there very well could be, but you're saying that it doesn't do anything....I'm bringing up the point that it very well could.

On top of that naphtha is used to make high-octane fuel...what were you saying about no getting any better mpg?

I'm not saying it does happen and I'm just throwing this out there, but does the naphtha in seafoam cause the engine to run hotter and burn off deposits?

[e30ncsu]

No, there is never a situation were a deposit in a combustion chamber canbe fixed by seafoam.

This is probably the most helpful single post I've made in the thread, should be a good place to start:

^^^^ If your issue is the injectors, additives may be effective to some degree. Carlisle, Frew, et al. found that some additives were able to keep fuel injectors clean (however they found that they were not effective against already existing deposits). (Carlisle, Frew, et al) They also note that the additives were only effective in stratified combustion modes but not homogeneous combustion modes, were they actually increased combustion. A lot of it comes down to how the aromatic compounds react with injector temperatures and the flow inside the combustion chamber.

That is dealing with running it through the injector, not through a vacuum or other air intake. In that situation the oil will become contaminated and get recirculated through your PCV to create new deposits (Carlisle, Frew, et al).

When running it through the vacuum or other air intake the claim is that the detergent or dispersant effect removes deposits and holds them in solution. This ignores that Sea Foam is not this complex, and has only a mild solvent... but lets pretend it actually has a chance at being effective.

There are three causes of oil deposits:
-Reaction of unstable oil molecules with oxygen to form carbonyl and carboxylic acid components to degrade oil which then creates deposits
-Reaction of oxides of nitrogen to form high molecular weight varnish and sludge
-Reaction of sulfur containing compounds to form acid formation that reacts with the base oil
(Isa and Haji-Sulaiman)

When those degraded compounds are recirculates in an internal combustion engine through PCV or EGR valves they form deposits along the intake (Isa and Haji-Sulaiman).

Now when dealing with combustion chamber deposits its important to realize that your grandparents were dealing with different types of deposits than we are now due to fuel, oil, and combustion geometry changes. When your grandpa was using Sea Foam he was trying to remove lead octane additive deposits and then later metal oxides from old crappy oil. Those are not the case today (well I guess you could probably find some old motor oil that didn't meet modern standards)

Today, combustion chamber deposits come from fuel and fuel additives (Yao, M., et al). If you start throwing in a ton more of these additives you may clean your injectors, but you are increasing combustion chamber deposits. Combustion chamber deposits increase HC emissions (Heywood) which is why that increases after using Sea Foam or a real, actually decent additive.

Essentially, what all of this means, is best described by this:
"The use of most detergents and carrier fluids generally increases the level of [combustion chamber deposits]" (Kalhjatgi, G.T.)

Are there things that additives are good, effective, and beneficial for? Yes. Is Sea Foam one of those types of additives? Probably not, much better polymer technology now. Is it one of those types of additives when sucked through an intake or vacuum port? Definitely not, not a chance. Will it clean my engine and combustion chamber? Definitely not, it will increase deposits.

I may be "just some guy on the internet", but this is a well sourced description for you. Sea Foam increases deposits.

Sources
Carlisle, H., Frew, R., Mills, J., Aradi, A. et al., "The Effect of Fuel Composition and Additive Content on Injector Deposits and Performance of an Air-Assisted Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) Research Engine," SAE Technical Paper 2001-01-2030, 2001, doi:10.4271/2001-01-2030.

Isa, F.M. and M.Z. Haji-sulaiman, Investigation of the relationship between used engine oil properties and simulated intake valve deposits. Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, Part D: Journal of Automobile Engineering.

Heywood, J.B., Internal combustion engine fundamentals 1988, New York: McGraw-Hill. 930. 46. DeGaspri, J., Recording oil's vital signs. Mechanical Engineering, 1999. 121(5): p. 54. 47. Rounds, F.G. Coking Tendencies of Lubricating oils.

Yao, M., et al., Experimental Study on the Effects of EGR and Octane Number of PRF Fuel on Combustion and Emission Characteristics of HCCI Engines, in 2005 SAE World Congress. 2005, Society of Automotive Engineers.

Kalghatgi, G.t., Deposits in Gasline Engines - A Literature Review, in SAE Fuels and Lubricants Meeting. 1990, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE): Tulsa Oklahoma. 88. Benson, J.D.; Some Factors Which Affect Octane Requirement.

[e30ncsu]

No, there is never a situation were a deposit in a combustion chamber canbe fixed by seafoam.

This is probably the most helpful single post I've made in the thread, should be a good place to start:

^^^^ If your issue is the injectors, additives may be effective to some degree. Carlisle, Frew, et al. found that some additives were able to keep fuel injectors clean (however they found that they were not effective against already existing deposits). (Carlisle, Frew, et al) They also note that the additives were only effective in stratified combustion modes but not homogeneous combustion modes, were they actually increased combustion. A lot of it comes down to how the aromatic compounds react with injector temperatures and the flow inside the combustion chamber.

That is dealing with running it through the injector, not through a vacuum or other air intake. In that situation the oil will become contaminated and get recirculated through your PCV to create new deposits (Carlisle, Frew, et al).

When running it through the vacuum or other air intake the claim is that the detergent or dispersant effect removes deposits and holds them in solution. This ignores that Sea Foam is not this complex, and has only a mild solvent... but lets pretend it actually has a chance at being effective.

There are three causes of oil deposits:
-Reaction of unstable oil molecules with oxygen to form carbonyl and carboxylic acid components to degrade oil which then creates deposits
-Reaction of oxides of nitrogen to form high molecular weight varnish and sludge
-Reaction of sulfur containing compounds to form acid formation that reacts with the base oil
(Isa and Haji-Sulaiman)

When those degraded compounds are recirculates in an internal combustion engine through PCV or EGR valves they form deposits along the intake (Isa and Haji-Sulaiman).

Now when dealing with combustion chamber deposits its important to realize that your grandparents were dealing with different types of deposits than we are now due to fuel, oil, and combustion geometry changes. When your grandpa was using Sea Foam he was trying to remove lead octane additive deposits and then later metal oxides from old crappy oil. Those are not the case today (well I guess you could probably find some old motor oil that didn't meet modern standards)

Today, combustion chamber deposits come from fuel and fuel additives (Yao, M., et al). If you start throwing in a ton more of these additives you may clean your injectors, but you are increasing combustion chamber deposits. Combustion chamber deposits increase HC emissions (Heywood) which is why that increases after using Sea Foam or a real, actually decent additive.

Essentially, what all of this means, is best described by this:
"The use of most detergents and carrier fluids generally increases the level of [combustion chamber deposits]" (Kalhjatgi, G.T.)

Are there things that additives are good, effective, and beneficial for? Yes. Is Sea Foam one of those types of additives? Probably not, much better polymer technology now. Is it one of those types of additives when sucked through an intake or vacuum port? Definitely not, not a chance. Will it clean my engine and combustion chamber? Definitely not, it will increase deposits.

I may be "just some guy on the internet", but this is a well sourced description for you. Sea Foam increases deposits.

Sources
Carlisle, H., Frew, R., Mills, J., Aradi, A. et al., "The Effect of Fuel Composition and Additive Content on Injector Deposits and Performance of an Air-Assisted Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) Research Engine," SAE Technical Paper 2001-01-2030, 2001, doi:10.4271/2001-01-2030.

Isa, F.M. and M.Z. Haji-sulaiman, Investigation of the relationship between used engine oil properties and simulated intake valve deposits. Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, Part D: Journal of Automobile Engineering.

Heywood, J.B., Internal combustion engine fundamentals 1988, New York: McGraw-Hill. 930. 46. DeGaspri, J., Recording oil's vital signs. Mechanical Engineering, 1999. 121(5): p. 54. 47. Rounds, F.G. Coking Tendencies of Lubricating oils.

Yao, M., et al., Experimental Study on the Effects of EGR and Octane Number of PRF Fuel on Combustion and Emission Characteristics of HCCI Engines, in 2005 SAE World Congress. 2005, Society of Automotive Engineers.

Kalghatgi, G.t., Deposits in Gasline Engines - A Literature Review, in SAE Fuels and Lubricants Meeting. 1990, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE): Tulsa Oklahoma. 88. Benson, J.D.; Some Factors Which Affect Octane Requirement.

[Elvis T]

No, there is never a situation were a deposit in a combustion chamber canbe fixed by seafoam.

The one thing as a lead engineer that I would never want to hear one of my engineers say is "There is never a situation where this could happen." Especially when there are as many variables involved when it comes to fuel quality, impurities in that fuel or something in the air. Could the situation be highly unlikely? Yes...but it's pretty hard to find a 'never' situation. That is unless you're just saying 'never' because you don't want to go back on your word and say "Well...there is a remote chance it could work."


On top of that, I didn't just say deposits in the combustion chamber. I said

You state that those are the main causes of deposits, not all deposits. Are you also saying that there is never a situation in a vehicle where there is a deposit that the solvent naphtha will fix?

I didn't just say combustion chamber deposits. If you're going to tout around the title of being an engineer. You should start acting like one and paying attention to details. Don't extrapolate and assume.

I would like to hear you answer my question about there never being deposits that Seafoam can dissolve, fix, or get rid of.

[e30ncsu]

There are no theoretical or empirical instances where seafoam, run through the air intake, can reduce combustion chamber deposits. My post above mentions a situation where it would be effective (it may have been effective in your grandpa's car with gas and oil from the time) but the theoretical and empirical evidence now, supported with peer-reviewed studies, indicate that seafoam through a vacuum or air intake will increase deposits. This is not just simply academic, these are empirical studies (that means that they are based on real-world observations).

I have already stated, in this thread, that seafoam would likely be effective for removing some exterior deposits and even mention one case specifically. In all of these cases, however, a cheaper generic solvent will work as or more effectively. There is never any reason to purchase seafoam, for the non-combustion chamber deposit situations where seafoam, as a mild-solvent, can be effective, simply buying kerosene or a cheap solvent will work as good or better and cost less money. There is no reason to ever buy seafoam.

[Elvis T]

There are no theoretical or empirical instances where seafoam, run through the air intake, can reduce combustion chamber deposits. My post above mentions a situation where it would be effective (it may have been effective in your grandpa's car with gas and oil from the time) but the theoretical and empirical evidence now, supported with peer-reviewed studies, indicate that seafoam through a vacuum or air intake will increase deposits.

I have already stated, in this thread, that seafoam would likely be effective for removing some exterior deposits and even mention one case specifically.

Yes, I believe you posted that case here:

As I said, the product has it's uses. It's popular with bikers for a reason. I ride also and used Seafoam in the fuel for years. The naphtha in Seafoam works well to clean fuel varnish in my Vulcan's carbs but after a bit of study and testing I found something that does a better job. Since you brought up Techron and I brought up PEA here ya go. It's the same stuff:

You also said it has it's uses...but then go on to say there is never any reason to buy Seafoam. So which is it?

In all of these cases, however, a cheaper generic solvent will work as or more effectively. There is never any reason to purchase seafoam, for the non-combustion chamber deposit situations where seafoam, as a mild-solvent, can be effective, simply buying kerosene or a cheap solvent will work as good or better and cost less money. There is no reason to ever buy seafoam.

I'll give you a good reason for someone to buy seafoam instead of those other generic and cheaper solutions and you won't find it in your theoretical or empirical instances: Someone goes in and knows that they need something of this nature...they don't know which generic brand is good and which is total garbage. They don't know what key ingredient actually does the work. So instead of making an all or nothing gamble on the generic brand, they're going to go with the one that may not be the best, but they will know it works.

That's the situation where someone isn't wasting their money. It's the brand name that makes the difference, that's what people know. They pay for the brand name instead of going through and getting a chemical engineering degree so they can save $3 on a bottle of deposit remover. This where some typical engineers fall short. Sure you have your logical route to go down and all of the data to prove and support your argument, but there is the real world outside of our world. That's where more things come into the picture.

On top of all of that, you're coming across like a typical engineer. You have your point and you don't have a very good way of delivering and you seem to get mad when someone disagrees with you...maybe you could work on that.

[e30ncsu]

Someone goes in and knows that they need something of this nature...they don't know which generic brand is good and which is total garbage

right

hence the reason for this thread

now you know

[Elvis T]

right

hence the reason for this thread

now you know

What are these name's of the generic brands that I am looking for? The only name that sticks in my head is Seafoam....

[timsev]

you guys are making my brain hurt.

[e30ncsu]

^^kerosene

[Elvis T]

^^kerosene

How much kerosene should I be pouring into my tank per gallon?

[e30ncsu]

None

[Elvis T]

None

Then what should I be using instead of seafoam?

[e30ncsu]

Gas

[Elvis T]

Gas

Are there any fuel additives that will help with combustion chamber deposits?

[ANDRO FIVER]

Its tastes delicious and you cant deny that.

lmbo.

[e30ncsu]

Cmbustion chamber? not per empirical studies, theoretical analysis, and the society of automotive engineers. See:
Kalghatgi, G.t., Deposits in Gasline Engines - A Literature Review, in SAE Fuels and Lubricants Meeting. 1990, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE): Tulsa Oklahoma. 88. Benson, J.D.; Some Factors Which Affect Octane Requirement.

[stefanom3]

water! tons of info on the net.
I've done it many times on many cars...

Cleaning intake valves with walnut shells:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=682116

what's the cost? is it really just $500 (given that they take out the intake and then put it back in)