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Thread: Stop Wasting Money on Seafoam!

  1. #51
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    It's been around as long as the internal combustion engine has, in cars it used to be used to control knocking

  2. #52
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    It runs on water, man!
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIqKS6YQYtQ[/ame]

    I couldn't resist....
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefanom3 View Post
    it was used on ww2 turbocharged/supercharged fighter planes or maybe even earlier than that.
    So was nitrous oxide.

    The only thing I can contribute to this thread is that is is often difficult to analyze products from a purely theoretical standpoint. There are a lot of different factors that dictate interactions in your combustion chambers.

    I've read a lot on Seafoam where someone had significant documented increases in mpg over the same commute during the same time of year. I've also read it doing nothing. It might be situational and it might not be actually acting directly as a solvent.

    Personally, the only way to prove/disprove this to me is empirically with before/after results.


    FYI: Never used Seafoam.
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  4. #54
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    There haven't been any real documented increases. Any product you want to improve your mileage will for the first tank because you drive more carefully to improve your mileage. If I could prove to you that my lucky feather improved my gas mileage by showing you before and after mileage calculations would that mean it increased my mileage? No, because there is no reason why it should. It's the same with Sea Foam.

    Actually using a lucky feather to increase your mileage or do whatever would be better for your car than sea foam.

  5. #55
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    Interested in these feathers... Will there be a group buy?


  6. #56
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    OP, I thank you for your very reasonable approach to final thesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrincessPilly View Post
    I have the BEST video of revving my engine with my little car looking like it's on fire, without fire of course when i seafoamed my 318ti! it was great. Even if it did nothing else, it sure looked awesome
    ......but it looks like you'll never win here.



  7. #57
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    I prefer using water for de-carbonization and using a top tier gasoline along with a PAE (polyetheramine) based fuel additive a couple of times a year. That'll keep everything including the injectors clean. Gumout Regane (the yellow stuff in the clear bottle), Redline SI-1, and Techron Concentrate are all PAE based. PAE actually does somethng, Seafoam does not.
    Interesting! I have always wondered if those fuel additives for fuel system cleaning were actually worth a damn too...

    edit: I too, am an engineer, and can appreciate your research.
    Last edited by robisconfusedd; 07-27-2012 at 09:49 AM.

    ^^ Really old picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe1O1 View Post
    I am going to make a bold claim, that the f30 is this millenium's e30...... god needed a new chariot, he decided to upgrade to something thats not falling apart and making farting noises down the street having satan laughing at him.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkchaser View Post
    Idiocracy was supposed to be cautionary tale, not a prophecy.

  8. #58
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    thanks for posting this, always wondered about seafoam



  9. #59
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    If anyone has access to academic databases, there are a lot of good peer-reviewed technical papers on this topic. I think the book I referenced somewhere in this thread is even available online for free.

    We live in a wonderful age, the information is right at your fingertips, no reason to just accept the advice of old people without thinking it through.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30ncsu View Post
    We live in a wonderful age, the information is right at your fingertips, no reason to just accept the advice of old people without thinking it through.
    Wonderful age indeed as anybody can post any and all kinds of information on teh almighty interwebsnets and since it is posted there it is the truth.

    1999 BMW R1100RT
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  11. #61
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    you also got to realize that when seafoam was extremely popular there were two things going on.

    1. we had shitty oil accross the board. I am talking about 70's and 80's

    2. cars were still using umbrella seals and flat tappit lifters.

    there are probably more but those are two that stick out. People used to use this stuff to free all sorts of oil related problesm. in crankcase oil to free lifters (lack of maintenance) and used to pour in into gas tanks to help "bring back" the fuel. It was heavily relied on in diesel and farm industry. in these points there was some benifit to it. Heck I got an old 1976 ford truck running and it was missfiring. changed the oil and added one bottle of this to the oil, ran another bottle of it through a vacuum line like directed flood the motor and let it sit for a few min then start it up and continure. the lifters freed them selves and the truck ran good again. so from that one experience it did something.

    but I do believe that the cars and motors have come along way as well as oil so there should be less deposits and carbon in cars. along with better maintenance because the economy has gone to crap (people are starting to take care of there investments more now).

    The move to direct injection is playing havoc on 335 motors and we see the intake vavle completly covered in oil sludge due to the fact there is no fuel being sprayed on the valve anymore and I am 100 percent sure that seafoam would not due anything bennificial to those motors. heck walnut blasting takes a while on some of those valves. so one instance where it would not do anything.

    i dont know I use it in my lawn mowers crankcase and fuel. in my cars I have in storage as a fuel stabalizer (never had a problem with them). and have used it as a make shift carb dip to clean a carb. i like it.
    Level 1 Certified BMW tech.

  12. #62
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    I have used seafoam on my cars. I had a 83 633 that had a bad idle and was not performing right. Used seafaom thru the intake and there was a immediate improvement in idle, much smoother, also used it in my 540 and it also ran better. I think i will believe what i saw and heard on my cars more than what someone else says. I also have friends who have used it and also had improvements. You can put it down all you want, but seeing is believing.

  13. #63
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    Dad's years of experience > some dude on the internet. Seafoam FTW!
    Photobucket sucks!

    Long live the E34!

  14. #64
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    This water injection sounds interesting... I may give it a try, seems odd dumping water in a combustion engine though haha counter intuitive

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by inevitable08 View Post
    This water injection sounds interesting... I may give it a try, seems odd dumping water in a combustion engine though haha counter intuitive
    Active Autowerke used to have an aquamist system, now they have a methanol injection system: http://store.activeautowerke.com/act...ystem-p71.aspx

    I'm not sure about how effective it is on naturally aspirated cars, but a lot of FI or forced induction cars have it and absolutely effective on them. Search for the aquamist system or go to the FI section here on the forums and you'll find some good info.

  16. #66
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    ^^^^ If your issue is the injectors, additives may be effective to some degree. Carlisle, Frew, et al. found that some additives were able to keep fuel injectors clean (however they found that they were not effective against already existing deposits). (Carlisle, Frew, et al) They also note that the additives were only effective in stratified combustion modes but not homogeneous combustion modes, were they actually increased combustion. A lot of it comes down to how the aromatic compounds react with injector temperatures and the flow inside the combustion chamber.

    That is dealing with running it through the injector, not through a vacuum or other air intake. In that situation the oil will become contaminated and get recirculated through your PCV to create new deposits (Carlisle, Frew, et al).

    When running it through the vacuum or other air intake the claim is that the detergent or dispersant effect removes deposits and holds them in solution. This ignores that Sea Foam is not this complex, and has only a mild solvent... but lets pretend it actually has a chance at being effective.

    There are three causes of oil deposits:
    -Reaction of unstable oil molecules with oxygen to form carbonyl and carboxylic acid components to degrade oil which then creates deposits
    -Reaction of oxides of nitrogen to form high molecular weight varnish and sludge
    -Reaction of sulfur containing compounds to form acid formation that reacts with the base oil
    (Isa and Haji-Sulaiman)

    When those degraded compounds are recirculates in an internal combustion engine through PCV or EGR valves they form deposits along the intake (Isa and Haji-Sulaiman).

    Now when dealing with combustion chamber deposits its important to realize that your grandparents were dealing with different types of deposits than we are now due to fuel, oil, and combustion geometry changes. When your grandpa was using Sea Foam he was trying to remove lead octane additive deposits and then later metal oxides from old crappy oil. Those are not the case today (well I guess you could probably find some old motor oil that didn't meet modern standards)

    Today, combustion chamber deposits come from fuel and fuel additives (Yao, M., et al). If you start throwing in a ton more of these additives you may clean your injectors, but you are increasing combustion chamber deposits. Combustion chamber deposits increase HC emissions (Heywood) which is why that increases after using Sea Foam or a real, actually decent additive.

    Essentially, what all of this means, is best described by this:
    "The use of most detergents and carrier fluids generally increases the level of [combustion chamber deposits]" (Kalhjatgi, G.T.)

    Are there things that additives are good, effective, and beneficial for? Yes. Is Sea Foam one of those types of additives? Probably not, much better polymer technology now. Is it one of those types of additives when sucked through an intake or vacuum port? Definitely not, not a chance. Will it clean my engine and combustion chamber? Definitely not, it will increase deposits.

    I may be "just some guy on the internet", but this is a well sourced description for you. Sea Foam increases deposits.


    Sources
    Carlisle, H., Frew, R., Mills, J., Aradi, A. et al., "The Effect of Fuel Composition and Additive Content on Injector Deposits and Performance of an Air-Assisted Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) Research Engine," SAE Technical Paper 2001-01-2030, 2001, doi:10.4271/2001-01-2030.

    Isa, F.M. and M.Z. Haji-sulaiman, Investigation of the relationship between used engine oil properties and simulated intake valve deposits. Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, Part D: Journal of Automobile Engineering.

    Heywood, J.B., Internal combustion engine fundamentals 1988, New York: McGraw-Hill. 930. 46. DeGaspri, J., Recording oil's vital signs. Mechanical Engineering, 1999. 121(5): p. 54. 47. Rounds, F.G. Coking Tendencies of Lubricating oils.

    Yao, M., et al., Experimental Study on the Effects of EGR and Octane Number of PRF Fuel on Combustion and Emission Characteristics of HCCI Engines, in 2005 SAE World Congress. 2005, Society of Automotive Engineers.

    Kalghatgi, G.t., Deposits in Gasline Engines - A Literature Review, in SAE Fuels and Lubricants Meeting. 1990, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE): Tulsa Oklahoma. 88. Benson, J.D.; Some Factors Which Affect Octane Requirement.



    On a related note

    Game. Set. Match.
    Last edited by e30ncsu; 07-27-2012 at 02:20 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  17. #67
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    e30ncsu, with what you've said and what I'm understanding, it sounds like seafoam may have been effective in the past. However, given the difference in quality of fuel over the past 50 years it seems like you're saying it doesn't work now.

    Are you saying it doesn't work and it never worked or it could have worked in the past, but now it definitely doesn't work?

  18. #68
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    I doubt it worked in the past as a combustion chamber additive, it may have worked in the past if left to soak. That is my best conclusion from the papers listed above as well as other SAE publications I have read and my understanding of combustion chamber processes, but I have no direct knowledge to the effectiveness specifically on leaded fuels and older oil standards. I just haven't looked into it that much, but Yao et al. did mention the difference specifically.


    Edit:
    Actually, thinking about it more, there may have been some benefits before emission controls when you could just vent everything to the atmosphere. But I would have to do some more research to come to any kind of meaningful conclusion on effectiveness in the past.
    Last edited by e30ncsu; 07-27-2012 at 02:59 PM. Reason: .

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by inevitable08 View Post
    This water injection sounds interesting... I may give it a try, seems odd dumping water in a combustion engine though haha counter intuitive
    I know, right? I've been planning to go methanol-water for awhile now. AND it improves gas mileage, lowers intake temperatures, plus I can advance timing and get good HP gains while cleaning deposits. It's such a win for <$500 initial cost.



  20. #70
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    Someone please use Seafoam on a new car at the dealer and then tell me if it reacts the same way as a 10 year old car with 100k+ miles.

  21. #71
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    People already have:
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKC151Xkq7Y[/ame]
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-uOmSwNOV0&feature=relmfu[/ame]

    It's burning all of the oil carrier, its going to smoke like hell no matter what you put it in. It's not because of magical powers.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30ncsu View Post
    People already have:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKC151Xkq7Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-uOm...feature=relmfu

    It's burning all of the oil carrier, its going to smoke like hell no matter what you put it in. It's not because of magical powers.

    Just like the foot bath scam where it tricks u into thinking your cleansing your body through the feet because once you feet go in the water magically gets dirty when in reality it would get dirty no matter what ... so long as you put the powder into the machine and it starts interacting with some other materials inside.

    scam scam scam.

  23. #73
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    I am appalled at the ignorance and naivety in this thread. Props to OP for doing his research before telling people to use/not use something. I love how people are commenting that it worked for them because they "felt" it did. Ha!

    I boarded the SeaFoam boat for awhile in highschool. It made a lot of smoke, that's about it. Never increased mileage, didn't run better. Just smoked. And that was on a 1986 Chevy Caprice.

    The only kind of cleaner that I've found to work is Chevron. Used it every once in awhile to cure the sticking fuel level sender in a Z06. That was through the fuel tank though and not through the intake tract. I do know BMW uses Chevron to clean intakes though. I guess that's one of the PEA based ones.

  24. #74
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    i suppose ill weigh in here, having run just about every cleaner through my cars there is over the years. seafoam can, in fact, break loose carbon. Ive soaked injectors, valves, and even spark plugs in it to clean them an it worked. Inside the combustion chamber is a different story and the stuff does have to sit for a bit to really clean anything. anymore if i think its getting carbon'd up i either go out and wind it up for a little while, or spray some brakleen in there while idling, that and good quality fuels will keep an engine clean.
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  25. #75
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    The naphtha in sea foam is a hydrocarbon solvent.

    Of course if you are soaking it, you should save money and just use kerosene or something. There are tons of cheaper napthenic and parrafinic oils to soak parts in. There is nothing special about Sea Foam it's about as simple as it gets.

    Sea Foam
    40%-60% pale oil
    25%-35% naphtha
    10%-20% ipa

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