Redline Water Wetter MSDS - In case you wanted to know

[GQ_Style]

Redline Water Wetter is something a lot of people promote putting in the radiator to mix with glycol based coolants for added cooling. I bet nobody knew what it was made of, eh? Well here it is, I wanted to know for a long time.

Redline Water Wetter's MSDS:

Dilsopropyl alcohol ether: 1-40%
Tri isopropyl alcohol diether: 1-40%
Sodium molybdate: 2-10%
Tolyltriazole: 1-3%
Polysiloxane polymer: n/a
(there are CAS#'s for those)

Some more interesting bits of info:
Trade name: RED LINE WaterWetter
chemical name: glycol ether mixture
specific gravity: 1.09
Water solubility: miscible @ 25C
odor: faint odor
stable: yes
incompatibility: strong acids, oxidizing agents
polymerization: will not occur
thermal decomposition: oxides of carbon including carbon monoxide
Ventilation: recommended
gloves: rubber gloves recommended

[GQ_Style]

Coolant Chemistry

....The major component of coolant is water which is a great heat transfer fluid.

....The next major component is the base of the concentrated coolant, as purchased at the store.

....There are two major base chemicals that commonly are used. Ethylene glycol (EG, generally green) is the most common base. Less common is propylene glycol (PG, generally orange or reddish), which has been used for years in Switzerland owing to poison laws and is a recent entry in the U.S. market.

....One function of the coolant is to lower the freezing point of the mixture in the system. Another function of the coolant is to raise the viscosity (thickness) of the coolant mixture. Higher viscosity mixtures will reduce cavitation at the water pump. PG (orange stuff) and EG (green stuff) will both raise the coolant viscosity, methanol will not.

....A variety of different chemicals are added to coolants to inhibit corrosion. Called inhibitors, the function of these additives may be to form a stable, protective film on the metal surface or to alter the solution properties of the coolant. Really, the precise mechanism of protection of some additives is not known by anyone who is willing to publish their results.

....Common corrosion inhibitors include: sodium phosphate, sodium nitrate, sodium tolytriazole, sodium molybdate, sodium borate, sodium benzoate and sodium silicate. These are all sodium salts. Actually, only the right hand group of these salts is chemically the inhibitor, i.e., benzoate or silicate. These salts dissociates in water, in other words, they separate into sodium, with a positive charge, and the inhibitor, with a negative charge. The sodium salts are used because of the high solubility (readily splits off and stays in solution) of sodium. There would never be sodium deposits in your engine.

....Different inhibitors protect different metals.

....Aluminum heat-transfer corrosion is best inhibited by silicate and most poorly by phosphate and borate.

....Copper is best inhibited by molybdate and most poorly by benzoate; high-lead solder best by molybdate and phosphate and most poorly by nitrate, silicate and benzoate; low-lead solder best by tolytriazole and molybdate and most poorly by nitrate and silicate;

....Mild steel best by molybdate, phosphate and nitrite and most poorly by tolytriazole and benzoate;

....Gray cast iron best by nitrate and most poorly by benzoate, tolyriazole, and borate; and cast aluminum best by silicate and most poorly by phosphate and molybdate.

....Phosphate is the most ubiquitous and most controversial inhibitor. It is a well known inhibitor of ferrous metal corrosion, hence trisodium phosphate is used to clean off sheet metal. American car manufacturers have specified phosphate in coolants because it is highly effective at preventing cavitation. Europeans specify non-phosphate coolants because phosphates have a propensity to precipitate in hard water. Also, phosphates have a negative effect on the corrosion rate of aluminum. This beneficial effects peak at concentrations of about 3 gm/liter and decreases at both lower and higher concentrations. Typical concentrations in coolants range from 0 to 8 g/l.

....Nitrate is included in virtually all coolant formulations because of its efficacy in preventing aluminum radiator pitting, with presumably no negative side effects for other metals. A typical concentration is 2 g/l.

....Tolytriazole is similarly included in virtually all formulations owing to its effectiveness in preventing cupreous metal corrosion. A typical concentration is 1 g/l.

....Molybdate is a broadly beneficial additive. It prevents corrosion in many metals and acts synergistically with phosphates and silicates to prevent corrosion in others. Molybdate also seems to prevent cavitation damage; it is usually selected to perform this function in non-phosphate coolants. Typical molybdate concentrations are 2 to 3 g/l.

....Borate is the most commonly used buffer for coolant systems. Off the shelf, American coolants tend to have a pH of 10 or higher (this is an alkaline pH), while European coolants tend to have a pH of 7 to 8.5 (which is near neutral to very slightly alkaline). In service, the pH of American coolants often drops to 8. Unfortunately, borate tends to have a direct and negative effect on aluminum corrosion. In spite of this, the importance of keeping coolants well buffered is great enough to keep borate in coolant formulations. A typical concentration is 4 g/l.

....Benzoate (and Nitrite, which is not mentioned here) are part of the British Standards Institute's [BSI] Corrosion Inhibited Ethanediol Anti-freeze formulation. Benzoate is more common in European coolants than American coolants and is described as a ferrous metals corrosion inhibitor.

....Finally there are silicates, which appear to be ultra necessary in the protection for aluminum. The problem is that silicates are not indefinitely stable in solution. While other additives can be used to stabilize silicates somewhat. The lifespan of coolants could be considered by the presence of an adequate silicate concentration. 2 g/l is an effective concentration of silicate.

....Bringing all of these inhibitors together, a combination of benzoate, molybdate, borate, nitrate, tolytriazole and silicate is a good additive package that doesn't use phosphates. The non-silicate part of the package is fairly effective in preventing aluminum corrosion, and makes a good back-up system in for an aluminum block engine, should the silicates become depleted.

....Other additives appear in coolants as well. These agents are typically used to stabilize the inhibitors or the metal salts which are corrosion by-products. This type of additive is called a sequestrants. Another required additive is the colorant.

[ponq]

A D D kicked in, I'll have to read it later.

Looks like a good read though.

Thanks proffesor GQ_Style

[GQ_Style]

Look at the data. I would say that Redline Water Wetter is great for protecting copper which our engines (or at least the parts that touch coolant) have little/none of, but not so great for protecting aluminum. Maybe it is just good for the surfactant properties of reducing the bubbles of boiling areas to smaller ones reducing ineffective cooling.

Stick with BMW coolant for optimal corrosion resistance. Addatives (like above) may help, but not by much.

You can also read the backs of the coolant jugs to see the formulations of each different brand of Coolant.

[mic_poo]

Do you just know of all that??? That looks like serious research.

I was afraid you were going to start balancing red-ox equations or something.

Interesting read. Thanks.

[GQ_Style]

What's in BMW coolant from that white bottle from the dealer? Here's the contents:

Ethylene Glycol
Diethylene Glycol
Sebacic Acid
Sodium Hydroxide
2-Ethylhexanoic Acid
Corrosion Inhibitors
Defoamers
Silicates
Dyes

Let's look at the ingredients. You have your base Glycols, Ethylene Glycol (EG) and Diethylene Glycol. The inhibitors are the Sebacic Acid and 2-Ethylhexanoic Acid also used in Dexcool and other European coolant brands as well as long life coolants. These are organic acids (OA). Meaning BMW coolant is based on Organic Acid Technology (OAT) different from traditional coolant which contain nitrites and phosphates. Dexcool and many Extended Life Coolants (ELC) including Honda and Chevrolet long life coolant is based on OAT. This also means that theoretically, that BMW coolant is a long-life coolant even though BMW recommends a change every 3 years.

OAT is different from traditional antifreeze coolants (AFC). Prestone (green) is an example of a traditional coolant with a Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA). This traditional coolant is typically referred to as an SCA based coolant. The SCA's are actually a suspended solid that coats the walls to act as a sacrificial liner. This uses different technology than OAT. But this means you can't allow the level of coolant in your OAT coolant equipped car to run low for extended periods of time. This would expose parts to pure steam and allow corrosion to occur. This corrosion can fall back into the coolant giving the appearance of precipatation and sludge. In short, keep your coolant topped off.

Another interesting inhibitor is the Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH), which acts to maintain the pH level in case the coolant breaks down and the acidity rises to unsafe corrosive levels. This doesn't inhibit the corrosion directly but rather stabilize the pH so that the OA's can prevent corrosion. Interesting...

Note: Propylene Glycol (PG) is another form of coolant, and is being commonly misunderstood and thrown into the category of ELC's. This simply is wrong. As I stated earlier, ELC's are actually EG based coolants with organic acid compounds mixed in. PG's are totally different.

Now, PG's were initially touted as non toxic. Now, due to pressures on them by the EPA and FDA, they must say "essentially non-toxic". This because, even though PG is actually safe to drink in pure form, the additives that make it a coolant are toxic. PGs are actually used in coffee beans as a preservative, in some make-ups, etc. In pure form, it is very safe and biodegradable.

The remaining corrosion inhibitors, defoamers, and silicates are some of the materials we discussed above which are added in small quantities. The dye is a mandated additive. I think most of the lesser ingredients are there to make this formula patentable.

An important side note to mixing coolant. BMW coolant is very similiar in composition to Dexcool. Their products states that:

"Mixing a “green” coolant with DEX-COOL reduces the batch’s change interval to 2 years or 30,000 miles, but will otherwise cause no damage to the engine. In order to change back to DEX-COOL however, the cooling system must first be thoroughly drained and flushed."

This means that if you accidentally added normal traditional "green" coolant to your BMW, nothing bad will happen (immediately) but it will reduce the effectiveness of your OAT coolant and shortens the change interval. You'll then need to flush your coolant at your next shortened coolant change interval before adding BMW coolant and distilled water.

[MMNJTWA]

Originally posted by ponq
A D D kicked in, I'll have to read it later.

Looks like a good read though.

Thanks proffesor GQ_Style

yeah i got to "...copper" and had to stop, i am on mardi gras vacation right now = no time to read

[neenja]

you gave a law student a headache from those write ups, i'd say you've done your job well.....ouch

[M3_boogie]

Originally posted by GQ_Style
Another interesting inhibitor is the Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH), which acts to maintain the pH level in case the coolant breaks down and the acidity rises to unsafe corrosive levels. This doesn't inhibit the corrosion directly but rather stabilize the pH so that the OA's can prevent corrosion. Interesting...

Great info GQ, thanks for sharing. I think you are close on the NaOH addition, but depending on the concentration of organic acid, they need to put this in there to prevent corrosion as otherwise the overall pH would be acidic. This is an alternative to using the sodium salts directly (as in sodium benzoate, etc) and may be done for patent purposes or many other reasons.

just my $0.02

[clumpymold]

Great read. I sorta skimmed a lot of it. Bottom line is this (please correct me if I'm wrong):

There is no significant advantage to adding Redline to your radiator.

[98technovlt]

Interesting write up....It is unclear to me, however, how increased viscosity reduces cavitation. Seems counterintuative.

[UD///M]

I recall reading those somwhere before. Its good info. The proper way to interpret the last part of the second post is to not mix different coolants. Stick with the one that is in the engine to top things off until you change. Then stick with whatever brand/type you use at the change to keep things full until the next change.

[mic_poo]

Originally posted by 98technovlt
Interesting write up....It is unclear to me, however, how increased viscosity reduces cavitation. Seems counterintuative.

Cavitation happens due to low NPSH (net positive suction head). The 'head' on the pump is a direct function of the density of the column of liquid on the suction side of the pump.

Therefore higher fluid density gives a higher margin of cavitation safety.

[98technovlt]

Viscosity and density are independant properties....consider oil, which is more viscous than water and LESS dense...thats why it floats.

[mic_poo]

ooops... misread your comment. I didn't mean to imply that viscosity=density.

[fast4d]

I've been using distilled water and water wetter on my track car (nothing else). is this bad?

[melmyers12]

One thing you guys are forgetting is the fact that the product water wetter is made for engines that ONLY run water as the coolant. I.E. race cars, where they are specifically disallowed to run an ethylene glycol coolant mixture.