Sunroof Problem - Yes I searched - Stuck Open

[Cory1970]

I have looked long and hard to find a good fix, but I must be missing something simple.

During a headliner install I removed the entire sun roof cassette in order to more easily remove the shuttle in an E36. The shuttle needed to be recovered to match the new headliner.

I followed this thread,
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=344546
but ran into problems after removing the two torx screws,
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/e.../SmallTorx.jpg.

After their removal and shuttle fell back just as Old Skool described. Now it was time to remove the torx screws holding in the shuttle.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/e...huttletorx.jpg

I could not access all of the shuttle screws because the sunroof was too far back. After previously being able to effortlessly move the sunroof with a hex wrench on the motor, it now seems to be stuck. It will now only move backwards. The tension on the motor is so great that it broke one of my hex wrenches.

I can not remove the shuttle or operate the sunroof at this point. After a significant amount of reading, I still can not find out how to disassemble the sunroof or un-jam it in this position.

What am I missing?

[berkeleyEE]

A bit more information, please.
Your sunroof cassette is back in the roof of the vehicle, right?
You've got the sunroof panel off 'cuz you show an image of racheting off the T-20's on the brass arms. And because the sunroof panel is off, you also had to remove the 3 17mm nuts from the cross-member that supports the rear part of the panel. And the cross-member is still attached to the control arms that move the sunroof panel, either to OPEN or to TILT.

So now there are only two ways to move the (missing) sunroof and fabric shuttle:
1. From CLOSED, you turn the hex wrench in the motor ClockWise to TILT,
2. From CLOSED, you turn the hex wrench in the motor CCW to OPEN.

If you are driving the fabric shuttle to TILT, then the cross-member is rising up and the fabric shuttle is being driven back by the Bowden Cable in contact with a white nylon runner that's attached to the shuttle and hidden back there in the cassette where you can't see it. And in TILT the shuttle only moves back about 2 inches and no more. Don't force it!

But if you are driving the fabric shuttle to OPEN, then the cross-member is dropping down, a tooth on the cross-member has fallen into a recess in the shuttle, and the cross-member is driving the shuttle back into the roof. For sure this ought to move easily as you previously saw.

Which are you trying to do?
If you were trying to drive the fabric shuttle in TILT farther than it can go and now it's jammed, you'll have to remove the cassette to spot the damage and fix it.
If you were trying to drive the shuttle in OPEN but it jammed anyway, you'll still have to remove it to unjam it.

Read here for more on the nylon runner: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1119696

Not encouraging I know, but I hope it helps. In any case, DON'T FORCE IT, you'll just break plastic parts.
-Jerry

[old skool]

You should be able to simply remove the motor. Then perhaps you can manually adjust the coil that moves the sunroof.

Your motor could be bad, or the sunroof coil could be at its farthest position. You want to re-center the motor and sunroof.

That is one possible solution. It's hard to know exactly what the problem is but you can start there. If that doesn't seem to be the fix, you could pick up a new sunroof motor at a salvage yard if you think it is in fact the sunroof motor that is the problem.

[Cory1970]

It sounds like I have not been clear as to exactly what my situation is. Please see me comments in bold.

A bit more information, please.
Your sunroof cassette is back in the roof of the vehicle, right?No, the entire cassette is out of the car. The painted sunroof panel is 3/4 of the way open and will not go forward into the closed position

You've got the sunroof panel off 'cuz you show an image of racheting off the T-20's on the brass arms. And because the sunroof panel is off, you also had to remove the 3 17mm nuts from the cross-member that supports the rear part of the panel. And the cross-member is still attached to the control arms that move the sunroof panel, either to OPEN or to TILT.The two t-20's have been removed, per the steps in Old Skool's thread, but the panel is otherwise still attached. I have not removed teh 3 17mm nuts from the cross-member, because they are not accessible (the sunroof is 3/4 open)

So now there are only two ways to move the (missing) sunroof and fabric shuttle:
1. From CLOSED, you turn the hex wrench in the motor ClockWise to TILT,
2. From CLOSED, you turn the hex wrench in the motor CCW to OPEN.
The sunroof will not go into the closed position, as it seems to be jammed. It operated properly in the car and even opened and closed a few times out of the car. Once the two t-20's at the front were removed and the fabric shuttle slid back, the sunroof panel would only move in the open direction.

If you are driving the fabric shuttle to TILT, then the cross-member is rising up and the fabric shuttle is being driven back by the Bowden Cable in contact with a white nylon runner that's attached to the shuttle and hidden back there in the cassette where you can't see it. And in TILT the shuttle only moves back about 2 inches and no more. Don't force it!

But if you are driving the fabric shuttle to OPEN, then the cross-member is dropping down, a tooth on the cross-member has fallen into a recess in the shuttle, and the cross-member is driving the shuttle back into the roof. For sure this ought to move easily as you previously saw.

Which are you trying to do?
If you were trying to drive the fabric shuttle in TILT farther than it can go and now it's jammed, you'll have to remove the cassette to spot the damage and fix it.
If you were trying to drive the shuttle in OPEN but it jammed anyway, you'll still have to remove it to unjam it.

Read here for more on the nylon runner: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1119696

Not encouraging I know, but I hope it helps. In any case, DON'T FORCE IT, you'll just break plastic parts.
-Jerry

What do you think?

[berkeleyEE]

Got it. Having the cassette out will make it a lot easier.

So the sunroof is still attached to the cross-member and is being driven by the motor and the Bowden cables. And it's pulled down and flat and moved 3/4's of the way to being fully OPEN.

Once the two t-20's at the front were removed and the fabric shuttle slid back, the sunroof panel would only move in the open direction.

So now where is the fabric shuttle with respect to the sunroof? Is it fully beneath the sunroof panel and also moving/stuck 3/4's of the way to fully OPEN?
If it is, then it's where it should be and is being driven by the tooth on the underside of the cross-member. And you should see the nylon runner sticking out from the shuttle and in the track on the cassette. Do you? Is the runner mangled/bent up/out of the track?

But if the shuttle is somewhere else, either farther back towards the rear of the cassette or more forward and trailing the sunroof panel, then that's probably part of your jamming problem.

I think you need to get the sunroof panel off so you can see what's jammed and also finish removing or reinstalling the fabric shuttle. Here's something to try:

Let's try to detach the right/left axles of the cross-member from the short arms that move and tilt the Rain Gutter (the curvy black plastic thingy that's behind the sunroof). I don't have images of that from my sunroof refurb, but I have some spare parts and I took some images of them.
The last image shows the plastic clip that when flipped back will allow the short axle to come out of the pivot point. That should free the Rain Gutter to be moved out of the way.
ControlArm_2.jpg . . . ControlArm+Lifter.jpg . . . Lifter+Arm_R.jpg

Check for access to the 3 nuts when the Rain Gutter is pulled away. Anything to get those 3 loose will help.

Once the right/left axles are free, there might be enough play that you can raise up the sunroof panel and get a box wrench on the 17mm nuts. Once all 3 start to loosen, you'll get more access.
Just don't break stuff yet.

[berkeleyEE]

It's likely the sunroof panel, when being CLOSED, is held tightly down on the right/left rails and can't be raised enough for access to the 17mm nuts. Here's images of a lifter and control arm in OPEN and TILT modes. Obviously this is out of the rails of the cassette.
Lifter_in_CLOSE.jpg . . . Lifter_in_TILT.jpg

You can see the lifter slides under the control arm for tilting, but is all the way at the end and holding the control arm down low and flat for opening.

My second suggestion is to break something. At the forward end of the control arm is a simple plastic part, I'll call it the slider, that is the pivot point of the control arm when the sunroof tilts.
ControlArm_1.jpg . . . ControlArmSlider.jpg

If you bust up the sliders, the ends of the control arms will be free and maybe you will gain access to the underside of the panel and those nuts. It's also possible the sunroof panel is as loose as it can get already and freeing that end of the control arms will add nothing. I dunno.

Or it's possible that freeing the end of the control arm will allow the whole sunroof+cross-member+control arms to slide right off the lifters. That would be too sweet.

Or it's possible the only way to free the sunroof panel is to break the control arms off the lifters. The danger in that is to the lifters. The lifters have little nylon pieces that act as the sliding surface between the lifter pegs and the inner groove of the control arm. And those nylon pieces are NOT AVAILABLE. I've looked, I've asked, I've posted a Want To Buy in the WTB forum: nothing. So my refurbished sunroof has one complete nylon piece and one half-broken nylon piece on the two lifters.
Good luck

[Cory1970]

Thank to berkeleyEE and old skool for all the advice.

Got it. Having the cassette out will make it a lot easier.

Thankfully it is out car.

So the sunroof is still attached to the cross-member and is being driven by the motor and the Bowden cables. And it's pulled down and flat and moved 3/4's of the way to being fully OPEN.

True, except for the part about the sunroof being flat. The driver's side was (I will explain its current condition soon) higher than the passenger's side (in the tilt position). This happened while trying to close the jammed sunroof. I found it strange that the roof would try to move into the tilt position on one side while 3/4's open.


At this point I removed the motor, which allowed me to manually move the roof to 90% closed. I was then able to access the three 17mm bolts holding the metal painted panel in place. The panel came off without a problem.

So now where is the fabric shuttle with respect to the sunroof? Is it fully beneath the sunroof panel and also moving/stuck 3/4's of the way to fully OPEN?
If it is, then it's where it should be and is being driven by the tooth on the underside of the cross-member. And you should see the nylon runner sticking out from the shuttle and in the track on the cassette. Do you? Is the runner mangled/bent up/out of the track?

But if the shuttle is somewhere else, either farther back towards the rear of the cassette or more forward and trailing the sunroof panel, then that's probably part of your jamming problem.

The fabric shuttle has been all the way back (further back than the metal panel) since I initially removed the 2 from T-20's.



Once the panel was finally removed, I was able to access the fabric shuttle screws and remove it.



Current Issue:

As previously stated, the sun roof was not flat. The driver's side was in the tilt position while the passenger's side was flat. Once the sunroof panel was removed I was able to inspect the tilt parts.

The driver's side (the side in tilt position) lifting block (plastic slider furthest back in the cassette) was cracked.

Lifting block is at the top of this pic (thanks BimmerDiy)


New part in bag (may or may not be the right side but you get the idea, pic source BimmerDiy):


While trying to collapse the driver's side, I broke the already cracked block (and stabbed my hand ).

At this point I am going to new lifting blocks for both sides, BMW PN 54128119747 and 54128119748.

What is the proper method for replacing these blocks and not jamming/breaking the sunroof in the process? I am most concerned about the shuttle orientation to the metal panel during reassembly.

[berkeleyEE]

The panel came off without a problem.

Excellent

The fabric shuttle has been all the way back (further back than the metal panel)

Current Issue:
As previously stated, the sun roof was not flat. The driver's side was in the tilt position while the passenger's side was flat.

The driver's side (the side in tilt position) lifting block (plastic slider furthest back in the cassette) was cracked.

Yeah, any one of the above issues is bad news, specially one lifter flat and one in tilt(?). Gotta fix the sunroof.

What is the proper method for replacing these blocks and not jamming/breaking the sunroof in the process? I am most concerned about the shuttle orientation to the metal panel during reassembly.

This is complicated and hard to describe in words. But I've tried.

read here:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1119696
not so useful here:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1145546

Some obvious hints:
You're going to have most of the mechanism disassembled. You can go as far as removing the covers over the brass tube ends and pulling out the Bowden cables for inspection/cleaning/relubing with lithium grease.

In fact, everything you touch should be cleaned and inspected for breakage and liberally regreased.

Synchronizing the right/left lifters is easy. Just put them into the gaps in the right/left rails (and sitting on the Bowden cable ends) at the same time. And from then on, use the motor+hex wrench to move the cables and drive the mechanism. The right/left lifters should remain in-synch from then on.

Putting the sunroof panel back on is the last step. If the mechanism is working properly, this should be easy. Could even be done after the cassette is in the car, to cut down the weight of the cassette.

More important is resynchronizing the fabric shuttle, that's what my post above addresses.

Synchronizing the motor to the mechanism is also critical. Unless you have a multi-amp 12V power supply and sockets to make a cable with a 3-position ON-OFF-ON switch, you'll need to do this in the vehicle. Here's how:

By hand get the sunroof to the CLOSED position (verify that the sunroof panel is properly located in height (fore and aft) and is square with the roof opening).
Remove the motor from the cassette, but leave it connected to the power and control connectors. Use the sunroof switch to operate the motor: send the motor to the full-open position and then to the full-closed position. Leave the motor in its CLOSED mode (the motor has internal microswitches and position counting). The motor and the sunroof should be synchronized now. Reattach the motor.

Last CAUTION:
The third fastener for the sunroof motor (it's the longer one) goes into a captive nut on a clip (maybe called a body nut) in the metal of the vehicle roof. Make sure it is in place and stays in place when you remove/replace the motor. Maybe place the Torx fastener right back in the captive nut to make sure it stays in place while you're messing elsewhere. A loose clip can move and get lost in there.

-Jerry

[Cory1970]

It took several weeks to get the parts from the dealer, but the car is finally going back together now. The only problems is that my motor will only turn counter clockwise, even when detached. When the motor was attached to the cassette, I thought the it was stuck to due to a problem with the lift blocks.

[berkeleyEE]

There is more than one type of DC motor used on E36 sunroofs, so the attached images might not match what you have.

The only way the motor knows where it is, which way to go, and how far, is by cam-wheels (the yellow wheels) and micro-switches (the blocks labeled "50/5") and internal counters. There is no feedback from the sunroof mechanism.

So one thing to check is the micro-switches inside the motor. Pop the cover off and take a look. Maybe a plunger (the red thingie) is stuck or maybe the micro-switch isn't in contact with its cam or maybe . . .

DCmotor_uSwitches_1.jpg . . . DCmotor_uSwitches_2.jpg
.

[Cory1970]

OK, I have taken my motor apart cleaned everything and unstuck the switches. How do I reassemble it and make sure it stays in time.

[berkeleyEE]

Well, reassembly is the reverse of disassembly. On my motor, the plastic cover just snaps back into place.

For synchronizing the DC motor to the sunroof, read here: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1161982

But these are the instructions I wrote from my experience:

With the motor plugged into the vehicle harness, you can control it with the sunroof switch. Connect the motor to the connectors, let it hang but hold it with your hand. The motor has lots of torque and will jump around at every ON/OFF.
Check that the motor runs a short time when going from CLOSED to TILT (and back), and runs a longer time when going from CLOSED to OPEN (and back). Be sure the motor is doing the right operation each time.

To synchronize the motor with the sunroof, do this:

By hand get the sunroof to the CLOSED position (you've previously checked that the sunroof panel is properly located in height (fore and aft) and is square with the roof opening, right?).
Use the sunroof switch to operate the motor: send the motor to the full-open position and then to the full-closed position. Leave the motor in its CLOSED mode (the motor has internal microswitches and position counting). The motor and the sunroof should be synchronized now.
Reattach the motor to the cassette with the Torx fasteners.

Do a final check of the sunroof motion by hand with the hex wrench, then try it with the sunroof switch. Good luck

stupid automerge

The sunroof motor direction is controlled by the Sunroof Switch. On my motor there are two connectors: power goes to the 2-pin connector and control (the switch) goes to a 6-pin connector. If the motor only rotates in one direction, it could be a problem with the control switch or wiring.

The sunroof switch is a 3 position center OFF rocker switch. In one position (OPEN) the switch applies a short between pins 5 and 4. In the other position (CLOSE) it applies a short between pins 5 and 3. Power comes in on pin 6 to illuminate the internal LED.

If the switch is OK, then plug it back in and check the action at the connector to the DC Motor. On my motor, OPEN applies a short between plug sockets 6 and 5. And CLOSE applies a short between sockets 6 and 4.

If an ohmmeter confirms the switch and wiring is OK, then it's gotta be the motor itself. And motors are pretty cheap on Ebay.