bmw vs. toyota

[wooji29]

One of my friends drives a toyota avalon and is stuck on how toyotas last longer then bmw's. I told him that its on how you maintain the car, and his counter argument is that maintenance aside, toyotas have fewer major problems then bmw. Anyone have any sources i could use to prove him wrong?

[E39Chris525i]

"yotas" are more reliable. My wife had a 01 Corolla and it was a good/not great car (lack of performance!). Traded it in for a 99 528. As long as you maintain a BMW, it will last. However, I see more E21's, E30's and more E28's on the road than I see 80's toyotas?! Tell that to your friend.

[Virginia Bill]

No sources because he's not wrong. Both Consumer Reports and J. D. Powers rate Toyotas as more reliable than BMWs (though the ratings vary by model, of course).

The first question to ask why he would want to drive a Toyota any longer than absolutely necessary. The only rational answer is that for him a car is an appliance. If that's the case, he's got the right car.

[glwillia]

Toyotas will have fewer problems their first ~10 years or so. Beyond that, though, and both will be unreliable. Also, Toyotas are more rust-prone than BMWs, IMO.

Although Consumer Reports doesn't take into account that an Avalon is a Japanese Buick, and is about as much fun as simply sitting on your couch.

[mryakan]

Very simple, Toyotas are more reliable and have less maintenance requirements because they play it safe and don't push the envelop like BMWs. More complex ==> more probability of problems.
That being said, it is not true that Toyotas last more than BMWs. If properly maintained, a BMW can outlast any Toyota and almost any other brand. I know for sure that in some 3rd world countries, BMW e21's are still on the road and in numbers, that's 30+ years. You'd be hard presses to find any Toyotas of that age. They also hold up better to the abuse of the bad roads in 3rd world countries (so do MBs).
In the end, your friend can happily "commute" in his Avalon, but he will be only doing that, "commuting". Toyotas are the most boring appliances on wheels and I don't call riding in them behind a steering wheel actual driving. Let him brag about his reliability, coffins are reliable appliances too, but probably exude a bit more emotion.

[shaeff]

I drive both. I've got a '86.5 Turbo Toyota Supra, '94 Toyota 4x4 Pickup, and a '95 M3. I love them all. I don't really care which is more reliable than the other(s), but I will say that my pickup has 155k on it, and the only major thing I did to it was replace the headgasket. Other than that, the truck in indestructable (22re).

Edit: To counter your third world country comment, next time, look at how many Toyota trucks you see. They're EVERYWHERE! All the video's I've seen with overseas coverage has numerous Toyota Pickups with 5-7 guys all with guns sitting in the back, banging around some of the worst terrain in the world.

[Takashi]

During the second world war, Toyota is one company in Japan that makes tanks....

Don't waste your time arguing with your friend. An individual who buys a Toyota probably have different agendas in their mind compared to an individual who buys a BMW. It's like comparing apples and grapes.

[RabidChimp]

No sense arguing. He sees his car as transportation, not as a sports sedan/coupe. I would say toyotas are more reliable, but BMWs are a helluva lot more fun to drive. BMW's can be very reliable cars if maintained well.

[wooji29]

basically it ended in this...
"when u find some evidence that beamers last longer than toyotas then we can talk about this"

[RabidChimp]

Personally I know of an E32 735i with 258,000+miles which one of our sales guys drives. One of our customers has an 96 E38 with 217,000 miles. There thousands of BMW's out there with high miles, so you can tell your friend to get off his high horse.

[mryakan]

Edit: To counter your third world country comment, next time, look at how many Toyota trucks you see. They're EVERYWHERE! All the video's I've seen with overseas coverage has numerous Toyota Pickups with 5-7 guys all with guns sitting in the back, banging around some of the worst terrain in the world.

+1 on trucks, but last I checked trucks are not cars . We are talking cars here (since BMW doesn't make trucks).

As for proof for the OP's friend, may I suggest a plane ticket to one of the countries on the US State Department black list, that will solve your dispute one way or another .

[webdesigner]

I wrote a big long explanation of this situation, but I deleted it

Just tell your friend to have fun driving his Toyota









because that will never happen.


and the only Toyota trucks that are decent are around the pre-95 range.

[Georgere]

imo (which is not bmw-partiotic), bimmers last longer b/c they're fun cars to drive even the best - they are wanted hence more valuable/resallable, whereas "yotas" are just regular cars and thier owners dont see the value to keep them that long or buy 20 y.o. regular car.....

if u go to 3rd world country, where having any car is as prestigious as it is expensive for majority, u'll see old bimmers as well as toyotas and even local maker cars that are shit still being used and maintained however expensive it is over there........

[adam1979]

I guess this depends on what you guys mean by "last longer." It certainly takes less money to keep a toyota on the road, but no one will ever confuse a 10 year old toyota with a newer car. It might continue to get your friend from A to B with little drama, but the design and interior won't age well, and the car will always be boring to drive.

My E39 cost its previous owners a small fortune compared to a typical camry with comparable miles, but no one can believe my car is 10 years old. It's no garage queen either - pretty average condition for its age.

[glwillia]

imo (which is not bmw-partiotic), bimmers last longer b/c they're fun cars to drive even the best - they are wanted hence more valuable/resallable, whereas "yotas" are just regular cars and thier owners dont see the value to keep them that long or buy 20 y.o. regular car.....

if u go to 3rd world country, where having any car is as prestigious as it is expensive for majority, u'll see old bimmers as well as toyotas and even local maker cars that are shit still being used and maintained however expensive it is over there........

True.. if any 1990-model Toyota cost as much to keep running as my E34, it would have been sent to the scrap heap long ago!

EDIT: except maybe a Supra Turbo

[frey328is]

my friend's honda has just as many if not more problems than my bmw

and his car is a 2000 with less miles than my 96

there is also a lot of useful things that Japanese cars just dont have...all the sensors...RWD ha (except a few nice cars)...tools in the trunk

but generally i would say bmw repairs run a little more

i know a guy with a 4 runner than has only had to do general maintenance like oil changes and brakes...never anything major...and its 150k+ miles

IMO i think we can all agree than european cars and japanese cars are way more reliable than american cars

[crucifudge]

I dont know why you guys are so defensive of bmw's reliability.

If BMW's are reliable name a car company that sells cars in America that isn't. A Ferrari is the most reliable car in the world if you follow their maint. I love my BMW but when you need to redo the entire cooling system every 60-70k miles thats not reliable. When your window regulator goes every 2 years thats not reliable.

If you compare BMW to what American cars were in the 80's yea, maybe they are ok.

[ezbmr]

My 5 is very reliable
My 3 is very reliable

Old Toyotas have soft chassis...Bmw's are stiff, Toyotas let the chassis flex...Bmw lets the suspension flex...

Old Toyotas are mostly new Toyotas....Old BMW's are old Bmw's

[midnightrider18]

hahaha toyota

[obnoxious2]

Very simple, Toyotas are more reliable and have less maintenance requirements because they play it safe and don't push the envelop like BMWs. More complex ==> more probability of problems.
That being said, it is not true that Toyotas last more than BMWs. If properly maintained, a BMW can outlast any Toyota and almost any other brand. I know for sure that in some 3rd world countries, BMW e21's are still on the road and in numbers, that's 30+ years. You'd be hard presses to find any Toyotas of that age. They also hold up better to the abuse of the bad roads in 3rd world countries (so do MBs).
In the end, your friend can happily "commute" in his Avalon, but he will be only doing that, "commuting". Toyotas are the most boring appliances on wheels and I don't call riding in them behind a steering wheel actual driving. Let him brag about his reliability, coffins are reliable appliances too, but probably exude a bit more emotion.

Then please explain all those really old toyota pickups (like the one top gear tried to destroy) that are used in all these suicidal bombings in 3rd world countries?

[REdirty6]

lol try finding camery enthusiast

[hon2bmw]

Any car can last 300,000 miles, reliability to me is measured in terms of cost of ownership, how long, and how frustrating was it for it to get 300K on the odometer.

On that front Toyota/Lexus has BMW beat. Wether its the cost of parts, how often things need to be replaced, or what systems go wrong. the ownership experience for the average buyer is less stressful, cheaper, and overall requires less attention.

Free maintence and warranties are worthless if your car is in shop 4-6 months out of the year.

Would I ever buy a Toyota? probably not, there are more interesting vehicles out there I would be more satisfied with for the money half of which are Hondas.

But for what 90% of the population uses cars for it works.

Toyotas are not perfect, they've had safety recalls and problems with initial quality(how they measure this is still a joke to me) All things that happen to any company producing a complex product in the numbers they put out.

But over time, the problems that do occur, are less severe, less costly, and happen less often than other makes.

Every manufacturer has their horror stories, and their shining moments. Car owners exagerate, as do fan-boys.

[Snork]

Don't forget about that toyota hanging exhaust.

[mryakan]

Then please explain all those really old toyota pickups (like the one top gear tried to destroy) that are used in all these suicidal bombings in 3rd world countries?

Don't you think there is a reason no one ever thinks of blowing up a BMW. Such a waste even for suicidals. As for Toyotas, I guess driving them for 20 year drives you suicidal .

P.S. The above is a joke and in no way condones suicidalism even if induced by mind numbingly boring driving appliances.

[Georgere]

Don't you think there is a reason no one ever thinks of blowing up a BMW. Such a waste even for suicidals.

at least with a BMW it would be a fun and glorious end whereas w/Toyota it is just "ah, another 20 y. o. junk that got blown"