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bmw4life92
12-15-2015, 07:51 PM
Hello, I recently bought a somewhat complete used electric rear vent window kit with some wiring and what looks like a ZKE box from a 1998 M3. I got no relays in the kit.
I have a 1992 E36 325i coupe with German/European specs, as I understand the ZKE IV(4) did not come until 1994 on E36.
How do I wire this up if I have no ZKE IV module originally?
Are there some wiring diagram for early models with some simple relay or something?
I do have electric sunroof and front windows on my coupe, so there is a comfort relay somewhere(I belive it would be the small blue relay-8 364 690-This is the new part number for it btw). The NLA wiring harness (61129404366) with an orange Bosch relay is nowhere to be found, but the relay itself is available,and the K113 Hinged Window Relay is available to.

Any ideas?

johnf
12-16-2015, 04:02 AM
... How do I wire this up if I have no ZKE IV module originally?
Are there some wiring diagram for early models with some simple relay or something?
I do have electric sunroof and front windows on my coupe, so there is a comfort relay somewhere.... The NLA wiring harness (61129404366) with an orange Bosch relay is nowhere to be found....You do not need that harness or the orange relay because the car already has a comfort relay to supply power for the motors.

bmw4life92
12-16-2015, 06:02 AM
Okai, thanks, I will look through Bentley catalogue and see if I can find a wiring diagram without ZKE 4 module. For early models.

johnf
12-16-2015, 09:47 AM
Okai, thanks, I will look through Bentley catalogue and see if I can find a wiring diagram without ZKE 4 module. For early models.I would find a copy of the BMW NA E36 wiring diagrams for 1992. It is specific to that year and should show something closer to the wiring you have. U.S. E36s generally came with sunroofs so it will show the comfort relay and wiring.

bmw4life92
12-16-2015, 03:32 PM
I would find a copy of the BMW NA E36 wiring diagrams for 1992. It is specific to that year and should show something closer to the wiring you have. U.S. E36s generally came with sunroofs so it will show the comfort relay and wiring.


Is it an open pin on the comfort relay or will I need to splice it in on some of the other wires? I am a real noob when it comes to electronics btw..

johnf
12-16-2015, 04:18 PM
Is it an open pin on the comfort relay or will I need to splice it in on some of the other wires? I am a real noob when it comes to electronics btw..You could be in luck. The 1992 U.S. ETM, sheet 5411-0.00, shows a coupe has a spare, wired circuit from the comfort relay with a 5A fuse and an assigned connector pin. If your car is the same, I do not think BMW could have better prepared if for adding electric rear vent windows. The funny thing is I seem to remember they were not an option until a couple years later.

bmw4life92
12-16-2015, 06:49 PM
I uploaded a picture of the diagram i found. Is it here you see an open pin in the comfort relay? I dont have the eye for this, haha.
Hopefully my car is wired like you say, so this will be fairly easy to retrofit :)

My 325i coupe is produced on this date btw : 1992-09-23.

Thanks again.

- - - Updated - - -

This second diagram is for models 09/1992-08/1993 - so if my car is produced on September 23. 1992, it is this diagram that is correct?


Peace

johnf
12-17-2015, 05:17 AM
I uploaded a picture of the diagram i found. Is it here you see an open pin in the comfort relay? I don't have the eye for this,Yes, at the left of the page of your first drawing, connector X13 pin 28, "NOT USED". I will keep my fingers crossed that it still is.


This second diagram is for models 09/1992-08/1993 - so if my car is produced on September 23. 1992, it is this diagram that is correct?It may be or may be not. It is clear from every ETM I have studied, that Munich used a different set of drawings to wire the car.

To help keep track of what they did to what, BMW introduces minor production changes at the start of each month, and tries to make major changes over the August shutdown. Thus 09/1992–08/1993 would cover 23 September 1992.

bmw4life92
12-17-2015, 03:02 PM
Okai, I see, I will get in there one of these days and try to identify the X13 pin under my dash, and see if it is open/Not used.

I'll be back with info when I know more.

Many thanks.

johnf
12-18-2015, 03:13 PM
You are welcome. Happy modding!

DJ Genius
12-30-2015, 11:10 PM
Hey, I am planning on doing this retrofit in near future too.
I am fairly good with reading and understanding wiring diagrams. I wish I could help here, but... it looks like there is no SPECIFIC coupe electric rear vent wiring diagram. Or at least I could not find it.
So do you end up kind of using a sedan's rear window diagrams? If so, knowing driver motors are different (sedan's rear window and coupe rear vent), how is this going affect the build?
My main concern is, when using standard window open/close buttons, there are 5 stages of the button:
1. resting,
2. gentle press up
3. hard press up
4. gentle press down
5. hard press down

Although, earlier E36 could have come only with 3 stage switches, I am not too sure about that.
But, if you are using 5 stage switches, how is it going to work with rear vent motors, if you wire them up as a sedan rear windows? My question is - is it not going to burn the motors when you press a hard press, meaning to open the window all the way? And would it even work, this "open all the way" feature? Is it coded in the motor or does relay or ZKE IV control that?

- - - Updated - - -

I have actually found a wiring diagram, here it is:
http://ru.bavariancar.lv/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=139563&d=1422297346

To do it OEM style, you will need a separate relay called K113 "Hinged Window Relay".

Switches used are yellow base 3 stage (OFF, CLOSE, OPEN) switches. So that answers my question. Opening of the vent is controlled by yourself by pressing the button, while closing is controlled by yourself again but through the relay for extra safety.

K114 "Comfort Relay" can be found on the left side under the dashboard by the steering column:

http://members.roadfly.com/petah/e36com8.jpg
Oh and X13 connector can be found behind left hand footwell kickpanel under the carpet, it is a 30 pin black connector (as there is a white connector there too X14).
Easier to get to Comfort Relay and check if there is a RED/BROWN or RED/BLUE wire coming out of pin2. That's the wire that is supposed to go to that black X13 connector, then splitter and supply power to K113 vent relay and window switches. But, by the looks of it, there is no reason for this wire to pre-exist if the car has no electric vent feature. So I give 95% you/me WILL need to install that wire + splitter.

MParallel
01-02-2016, 05:02 PM
Just checked the BMW install instructions. Document lists 7/94 and

"Vehicles with central locking, central bodywork electronics, with or without electric sunroof".

I guess you could just fit the ZKE4 and go from there and only fit the wiring needed.

DJ Genius
01-02-2016, 05:30 PM
Would upgrading the ZKE be alright though? Nothing else would get damaged, disabled or shorted? Has anybody inspected them side by side, diagrams by diagrams? I mean, who knows what the difference is in the wiring.
Good info on ZKE for a lookup:
https://www.bmwgm5.com/GM4.htm

MParallel
01-02-2016, 06:07 PM
If you just wire in the ZKEV for just the electric rears I don't see any problems.

DJ Genius
01-02-2016, 06:13 PM
Oh, you mean to add, not to replace :) Yeah, older ZVM II module is very different, it has only 2 plugs. So adding ZKE IV and wiring it just for the rear vents will do no harm.
Luckily, I have ZKE IV although my car s 06/94 325i coupe, but European, so maybe in Europe ZKE IV was used a little bit earlier. But OP may need to source a ZKE IV module.

bmw4life92
01-05-2016, 02:58 AM
Oh, you mean to add, not to replace :) Yeah, older ZVM II module is very different, it has only 2 plugs. So adding ZKE IV and wiring it just for the rear vents will do no harm.
Luckily, I have ZKE IV although my car s 06/94 325i coupe, but European, so maybe in Europe ZKE IV was used a little bit earlier. But OP may need to source a ZKE IV module.

Hey man, I did get a ZKE 4 module in the kit(I think its generation 4, its from a 1998 E36 M3- the part number is 61358369483)-The window switch bases are yellow, so the switches I got are 3 stage like you say btw
So I can just wire in the correct pins on this module, instead of using a K113 Hinged Window Relay? Or is it easier to add power to a K113 relay that drives the motors? will this drive the motors correctly, so they dont burn?
Dont know the status of my X13 connector yet.

Many thanks,

MParallel
01-05-2016, 07:11 AM
You always need the relays. It's part of the kit and since it's designed for cars with ZKE4...

The ZKE4 only has relays for front windows. Cars with rear electric windows, like my vert, have an extra RM (Relay Module) fitted, that has the 2 relays inside for the rear windows.

On a coupe with rear vent windows, it uses these separate relays. At least the retrofit kit. It could be if you have them factory fitted, BMW used the RM as well.

The white connector here, goes to the RM


http://www.idon-industries.com/bimmer/modules/01.jpg

bmw4life92
01-05-2016, 08:35 AM
Okai, but since my 325i coupe has electric sunroof and electric front windows, it has the comfort relay- one touch originaly,, I wont need the ZKE 4 then?
Correct me if I'm off here--> I will need to add either the correct RM or a K113 hinged window relay to my comfort system to make the rear motors funtion correctly?
Do you have a part number for this RM? Adding the RM or K113 relays is practicaly the same thing right, exept the RM is built with both sides relays inside?
In that case, do I need one or two K113 relays for my rear motors?



Thanks

DJ Genius
01-06-2016, 03:55 AM
In order to have rear vents working two relays are necessary: K114 Comfort Relay and K113 Hinged Window Relay (rear vent relay).

K114 relay usually come with sunroof cars as it helps to control the sunroof properly with all the safety functions supplied by the general control module, may it be ZVM II (early E36s) or ZKE IV (later E36s). It also supplies the power to rear vent window and sunroof switches. So you may have this relay already. That's the one under the steering wheel. If you don't have it... well, it costs like a 80 USD and is a specific relay, you cannot install just some generic relay and get away with it. Best place to look for them is the scrap yard where they allow you to pull the parts you need yourself. You just bring the relay to the counter and they charge you 5 USD without knowing it is a SPECIAL relay :)

K113 relay is equipped ONLY with electric rear vent car models. This relay controls the rear vent window motors. This relay is even more expensive, around 100 USD. So again, scrap yard is the best places to look for it.

Do you need ZKE IV? By the looks at the diagram I can see that opening the rear vents does not involve K113 or ZKE IV. Power from the switches go straight into the vent motors. However, closing the vents is a different story. Power goes through the K113 relay, nothing special, it is not interrupted. But ZKE IV has an option to stop the power going to the vent motor for closing. That is probably the safety feature, the same as with the sunroof - if something is stuck and prevents from closing, the ZKE IV cuts the power, stops the closing of the sunroof or rear vents, prevents the motors from burning and saves whatever or whoever is stuck in there. I would need to see your ZVM wiring and see how your sunroof is wired to ZVM. I think if you spliced one wire into the sunfroof-ZVM wire, you might get away and have that safety feature shared between sunroof and rear vents. But it's a wild guess.

johnf
01-06-2016, 09:19 AM
This thread is becoming a pretty interesting cargo cult and it would be churlish to spoil the fun. I should point out, however, that the E36 sunroof and electric rear vent windows provide no protection – none whatsoever – against pinched body parts or stalled machinery. This is why neither will one-touch close.

DJ Genius
01-06-2016, 10:12 AM
Is there no protection? That's a shame. I wonder then, what sort of a signal sunroof and vents get from ZKE module when closing down? Cause the signal WILL STOP the closing sequence. So there is some sort of interrupt.
I still think there is a protection. I shall go out and stick my hand in the sunroof :D
Okay... I am back... with a little bit of pain in my hand... there is no protection, sunroof kept crushing my hand:) So, what kind of interrupt does ZKE supply the sunroof and vent windows?

MParallel
01-06-2016, 10:36 AM
The anti-trap can be coded in the ZKE. Not sure about the sunroof as I only have 2 cabrio's.

I disabled the trap, as it would often interrupt the one-touch closure because a weatherstrip puts a little force on the window.

The rear windows can be coded to one-touch close as well. I did this on my cabrio's. I changed all the switches to the yellow one (one touch up and down).

Such a delight as the all-4 window switch now also one-touch closes all 4 windows at the same time.

johnf
01-06-2016, 11:08 AM
The anti-trap can be coded in the ZKE. Not sure about the sunroof as I only have 2 cabrio's....There is no pinch protection on the E36 sunroofs. We looked into making ours one-touch close, but a couple of engineers from Webasto, the company that designed and made the roof, convinced us not to.

- - - Updated - - -


Is there no protection? That's a shame. I wonder then, what sort of a signal sunroof and vents get from ZKE module when closing down? Cause the signal WILL STOP the closing sequence. So there is some sort of interrupt.That is something else – a zero position switch ending comfort closing – that is not pinch protection. The rear vent window motors just stall and try to twist off the latches. In the electric windows section of a newer, European owner's manual, you should find some advice: to press the close button until you see and hear the rear window latch – with the implication, after that you should let go! Likewise, you are expected to supervise their closing when you comfort close from the driver's lock, and stop twisting, which is not entirely comfortable, once they latch.


I still think there is a protection. I shall go out and stick my hand in the sunroof :D
Okay... I am back... with a little bit of pain in my hand... there is no protection, sunroof kept crushing my hand:)You are crazy. We tried a carrot and watched the sunroof chop it.


So, what kind of interrupt does ZKE supply the sunroof and vent windows?None. A zero position switch in the sunroof, interrupts the sunroof; your eyes, ears and good sense, stop the closing of the vent windows.

bmw4life92
01-06-2016, 02:32 PM
I would need to see your ZVM wiring and see how your sunroof is wired to ZVM. I think if you spliced one wire into the sunfroof-ZVM wire, you might get away and have that safety feature shared between sunroof and rear vents. But it's a wild guess.

Here is the wiring diagram for my sunroof, from 1992 ETM catalouge. I hope I wont have to retrofit a ZKE 4 module, seems like to much wiring.
I have comfort relay, so I need one K113 Hinged window relay? So confused about this zke and my wiring at this point :P
I have the yellow base switches btw, they are one touch? Have seen one-touch modules on ebay and amazon for all electric windows, does these stop the motors in time so they dont burn?

Let me know if you need close up pictures of my wiring etc,

Many thanks.

DJ Genius
01-06-2016, 05:16 PM
Okay, I had a look at 93 2 door wiring diagrams.
You need to get the K113 Hinged Window Relay and wire the switches and motors as shown in the Power Vent Window diagram.
Connect Pin8 of the K113 to your Comfort Relay Pin5 RED/VIOLET or Pin2 RED/VIOLET wires. This will supply the power to your K113 relay.
As for Pin7 "interupt" or whatever that is (that has to be connected to ZKE IV module), your older Sunroof Control Assembly doesn't have this feature anyway, so I'd say you can forget about it as it doesn't do that much anyway. But you will need to keep an eye when closing the vents.

I am still figuring out what exactly this "interrupt" does. As I shall be wiring my system in couple months too.

And don't mix YELLOW base switches as there are two types of them:
door window switches:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTQxWDEwMjE=/$T2eC16dHJGwE9n)yUs0mBQwnZmm7Cg~~60_12.JPG?set_id= 880000500F

Rear vent switches:
https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/641943_x800.jpg

And I wish I could find these for sale (K113 relay with wiring and sockets for vent switches):
http://bmwiki.ru/images/b/b3/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B5%D 0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%8D%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D1 %80%D0%BE%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B A%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8_2.jpg

But I think any 3 stage window switch will work as long as you have wiring for it.

- - - Updated - - -


None. A zero position switch in the sunroof, interrupts the sunroof; your eyes, ears and good sense, stop the closing of the vent windows.
Yes, you are right. I completely forgot there is a HOME switch in the sunroof motor. Mine is actually off by a centimeter right now, I shall need to re-calibrate it to have it in the correct position.

MParallel
01-06-2016, 05:44 PM
Large pins are older version of connectors. E36 has a bit of a mix betwen old and new. I'm pretty sure the 4 large pins do exactly the same as the small ones.

there's more connectors where older models use large pins, later production e36's the smaller ones.

DJ Genius
01-06-2016, 06:06 PM
These large pin yellow body switches were used ONLY for vent windows. That is why it is so hard to get them. The part number is 61318357208.
They were also used on E53 X5 for rear seat backrest adjustment.

flyfishvt
01-06-2016, 06:17 PM
So why not get newer small pin switches and pigtails from a junk yard or from someone parting out a newer e36 and splice it onto that harness?

DJ Genius
01-06-2016, 07:11 PM
Yes, exactly. That is a plausible cheaper option, if you are not perfectionist... :D

MParallel
01-07-2016, 03:57 AM
So why not get newer small pin switches and pigtails from a junk yard or from someone parting out a newer e36 and splice it onto that harness?

Indeed, that was my whole point.

I also do wonder if you have them and code the ZKE4 to one-touch close on the rear windows and use the yellow 4-position switch, they will auto close.

And same for one-touch open. If it works for convertibles, it should do exactly the same for rear vent windows.

DJ Genius
01-07-2016, 04:21 AM
I don't know... Coupe rear vent windows seem to get the same treatment as a sunroof. And we all know how hard it is to do a one-touch feature on the sunroof. You actually need to buy a bypass wiring system in order to do it. It is not just a switch change.
I think it is the same with the rear vents. ZKE IV controls the front door windows and has a memory of the window position. I don't know how ZKEs are built, but it would need to have memory functions for the rear vents as well.

I had a look at convertible motors. They also have only 2 wires going into the motors, one for opening the window, another for closing. But these motors have an additional A5 relay (same as sedan models). And it requires more additional wiring. But seeing it uses the same ZKE IV module... there is hope. I wonder if teaching convertible rear windows of new OPENED and CLOSED positions is the same as for the front door windows. If so, then it may be possible that ZKE can actually store 4 separate windows's positions.

If we could save coupe rear vent OPENED and CLOSED positions in ZKE IV module, then we could add A5 relay and have the one-touch feature working. The only difference I see is the window travel. On convertible or sedan, windows travel much more than coupe's rear vents. But if we can save ANY positions, then after doing a proper window position teaching procedure below, we might be able to pull this off:


An initialization must be performed:
• In the event of malfunctions, e.g. no one-touch control function, no opening or if available no comfort function is possible
• After the power window drive has been replaced
• After work is carried out on the power window mechanism
• If necessary, after an open circuit, e.g. disconnection of the battery or disconnection of the power supply to the door
• After the door window glass has been removed and installed or replaced
• After adjustment work on the door window glass
• After adjustment work on the convertible top
• After replacement of seals


Initialization is performed on the power window switch of the relevant door.
Requirements for correct initialization:
• Terminal "R" activated
• Doors and windows closed
• Sufficient battery voltage; connect charger if necessary
Initialization comprises:
• Erasure of initialization
• Reinitialization


Erasure of initialization:
• Open door window glass fully
• Actuate power window switch in "Open" position (second switch position) and hold down for between 15 and 20 seconds
This clears initialization of the power window. Anti-trapping protection and one-touch control (toll) function are inactive.
Check whether one-touch control (toll) function is inactive, otherwise repeat procedure.
Reinitialization:
• Close door window completely
• After upper end position is reached, interrupt actuation of power window switch and then hold switch again for approx. 1 second in "Close" position (second switch position)
• Open door window glass fully
• After upper end position is reached, interrupt actuation of power window switch and then hold switch again for approx. 1 second in "Open" position (second switch position)
• Close door window completely
• After upper end position is reached, interrupt actuation of power window switch and then hold switch again for approx. 1 second in "Close" position (second switch position)
This completes initialization.
Note:
Carry out function check (one-touch control function, anti-trapping protection and, if necessary, comfort function).

Note:
The power window can also be initialized in the BMW diagnosis system by means of a diagnosis job.


I shall definitely give it a shot. Here is an A5 RELAY MODULE (the one on the bottom right with a white connector), coupe models don't have it:
http://s55.radikal.ru/i147/1107/4b/abb163fb810e.jpg


P.s. bmw4life92 (http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/member.php?733107-bmw4life92) , I'm sorry, I don't want to sound like I am hijacking your thread. But it seems we are both working on the same retrofit project.

bmw4life92
01-07-2016, 06:10 AM
Yes we are man :) I need all the info and help I can get, so keep updating us as you figure out what works during install!

BTW if I'm going to retrofit the ZKE 4, 18 button OBC and electric rear windows and original alarm etc, will it mby be easiest to get a whole wiring harness from a newer model who have most if not all of these connectors? Or will that be way to time consuming?


Thanks all ;D

johnf
01-07-2016, 12:03 PM
So why not get newer small pin switches and pigtails from a junk yard or from someone parting out a newer e36 and splice it onto that harness?Take an old switch apart and a new switch apart, and you will quickly notice a big difference. The new switch will burn out.

DJ Genius
01-07-2016, 01:28 PM
Is it because of the higher current? Looking at the diagrams I can see only 0.5 sq.mm. wires going into the switches, don't see any reason for switches to be any beefier.

bmw4life92
01-07-2016, 01:57 PM
I will ofc check my X13 connector first and see if it has open pins before doing anything drastic. But I can get a hold of a complete wiring harness from a 11/1995 328i coupe or a 3.0 M3, these has the connectors for the ZKE 4 and much more, Its from a car with M52B28 or S50B30 engine, so will my M50 vanos engine run correctly with either this harnesses or with its own, and just strip the whole interiour and swap everything about the wiring harness exept the engine wiring?

If adding electronic extras later is going to be easier that way, its an option.
My car dont even have the "pre-wiring" connector behind the glovebox for original BMW alarm, so it seems it might be less work in swapping out the cars wiring harness with a newer one than to start wiring up every single connector???

johnf
01-07-2016, 02:28 PM
Is it because of the higher current? Looking at the diagrams I can see only 0.5 sq.mm. wires going into the switches, don't see any reason for switches to be any beefier.Oh dear. If a later switch has second, one-touch detents, that will also very briefly mess things up, until the window motor destroys a second set of switch contacts.

DJ Genius
01-07-2016, 09:59 PM
Oh dear. If a later switch has second, one-touch detents, that will also very briefly mess things up, until the window motor destroys a second set of switch contacts.
But that is the way sedan/convertible windows work. They have an additional RMIV Relay Module that specifically control the rear window motors. It doesn't matter what switches you use earlier or later, all that switches get power from ZKEIV and send signals to RMIV relay. RMIV relay gets its own power from fuse F19 in power distribution box (Fuse Box).
To be sure, I would need to check the power of the sedan/convertible rear window motor and compare it to coupe rear vent motor. Is that's what you are trying to say, johnf (http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/member.php?26253-johnf)? Those two motors are not interchangeable, because coupe rear vent motors need less power?

johnf
01-08-2016, 02:49 AM
...To be sure, I would need to check the power of the sedan/convertible rear window motor and compare it to coupe rear vent motor. Is that's what you are trying to say, johnf (http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/member.php?26253-johnf)? Those two motors are not interchangeable, because coupe rear vent motors need less power?No, I forgot that you guys had also been discussing the rear window relay module. I would expect the rear window switches meant for that, followed by the module might just work just fine with the rear vent windows.*

It is clear that I have got too many things going on at the moment to follow this thread, and better drop out.

One parting thought. Rather than replicate the old switch-and-relay system BMW quickly tacked on to the existing window electronics, have you guys thought about just adding a bit more electronics? I eventually added a couple Autoloc WC-1000 window control modules to make my vent windows one-touch. (A nice improvement.) I inserted them between the motors and the vent window, comfort close double-relay, and had to change three resistors in each module to accommodate the window motors peculiarities. From what I remember studying the modules and the rear vent window electrics, I bet you could eliminate the relay and have the WC-1000 modules do everything.

* EDIT: Having had another moment to think about it, although the module may work with the switches, it may not work with the rear vent windows – the windows may be too different.

DJ Genius
01-08-2016, 03:00 AM
So how do your vent windows work? Work properly and have a one touch feature for opening and closing? What kind of window switches are you using? How did you teach the fully open and fully closed positions?

johnf
01-08-2016, 03:30 AM
I retrofitted the electric vent windows when the car was a month old, using the newly introduced kit and harnesses from BMW. (I am the guy who set off the electric vent window retrofitting craze of 1996-97, and provided some of the info you find in later DIYs.) I kept the right side of the existing system with its relays, switch and wiring – so the windows would continue to comfort close – and connected both WC1000 modules and window motors after the dual, comfort close relay. I had to modify the modules to work with the smaller, slower rear vent window motors. That was straightforward, at least with with the modules I received, which could have been designed and built 40 years ago.

DJ Genius
01-08-2016, 04:19 AM
Okay, I kind of get the idea now. So you went with rear vent route, where instead of installing a rear vent relay, you got the WC1000 modules. I looked at eBay, these modules cost 25-35 USD per module, and you installed 2 of them, so that was at least 50 USD.
I don't know if you read through all the thread. Our first intention was also to go with rear vent route and have everything wired just as OEM with rear vent relay. But, as it was suggested by MParallel (http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/member.php?80692-MParallel), we started looking at convertible setup. After looking at couple different wiring diagrams I've immediately noticed that convertibles, sedans and tourings use A5 Relay Module (RM IV) to control rear window motors. This RM IV relay is controlled by ZKE IV module. All ZKE IV modules are pre-programmed the same for coupes, sedans and etc., but coupes simply do not use some of ZKE IV features, such as controlling rear window relay RM IV, as coupes officially don't have rear windows, hence they don't have RM IV relay module installed as well. Why BMW chose to use a unique Rear Hinged Window Relay for coupe electric vents instead of convertible/sedan RM IV rear window relay, I don't know... Instead of going with an existing setup, they invented a new setup.

Your option sounds very similar to ours, except that you are using aftermaket module and we are thinking of using OEM relay module.
In your scenario you needed 2 of those WC1000 modules - 50 USD.
In our scenario we need only 1 RM IV module, you can get them used for as little as 10 USD.

Please don't get me wrong, I applaud you for being one of the first to retrofit the rear vent windows. But I think our options is a bit cheaper and a bit easier to follow, as wiring diagrams are available all over, because we simply wire the rear vents just as convertible/sedan rear windows. My biggest concern is one-touch feature. It will definitely work, but I am concerned about calibrating the windows to their FULLY OPEN and FULLY CLOSED positions.
Do you remember how you trained your windows to those positions? How do your WC1000 modules know when windows are fully opened and fully closed?

Would this WC1000 module work with one-touch sunroof feature?

MParallel
01-08-2016, 04:59 AM
^^
It was just a suggestion based on my hypothesis. Never touched rear vent window system parts. Might work, might not. I can imagine the rear vent window motors not having a position feedback function. But maybe they do have endpoint detection. Which you need for one-touch open/close.

No, the zke4 is explicitly programmed differently for each model. Like a sedan and touring that have no frameless window, so the window drop on opening is disables. That's just one example.

There is for example a parameter called "cabrio behavior" active/not active.

If only we had the zke5...that has so much more options. Like remote comfort closure/opening.

DJ Genius
01-08-2016, 05:24 AM
^^
No, the zke4 is explicitly programmed differently for each model. Like a sedan and touring that have no frameless window, so the window drop on opening is disables. That's just one example.
Are you sure about this? I think it is very inefficient. I think they are all more less the same, but some features are disabled on some car models.
Well, I mean features can be enabled/disabled easily with a proper diagnostics software or tools.

MParallel
01-08-2016, 06:54 AM
Maybe we mean the same. Yes technically identical, differently coded for each model.

I once had a bad zke (which turned out to be something else). Since I have a GT1, no need to source a specific zke coming out of a cabrio. Just buy one, hook it up, and upload the NCS Expert file I extracted before to code the module to EU cabrio settings.

DJ Genius
01-08-2016, 07:20 AM
Just buy one, hook it up, and upload the NCS Expert file I extracted before to code the module to EU cabrio settings.
Is there a way of changing the settings without uploading the files? I mean more of like ticking the boxes using DIS or SSS/Progman?

MParallel
01-08-2016, 11:55 AM
Nope. No chance. Progman hardly lets you change anything, because of country specific laws. That's where ncs expert comes into play, as this is factory software, that lets you program cars to meet these market specific settings.

DJ Genius
01-08-2016, 01:45 PM
I have the NCS software, but not really familiar with it. Do you need to have files for the upload? If yes, would you be able to send me the convertible file? Or can you do adjustments without external files?

Today I went to a local scrap yard looking for Relay Module and some rear window switches from 98 sedan. Couldn't find the damn Relay Module and stood there confused... 5min later noticed that rear windows were manual! :D Couldn't believe some '98 E36s came with manual window lifters. Left empty handed.

MParallel
01-08-2016, 02:08 PM
You read out your own module first. Modules have different coding indexes. When reading your car ncs tells you what version you have.

You want NCS Dummy, a super nice tool made by Revtor. Search the topic "taking the dummy out of ncs expert".

DJ Genius
01-08-2016, 02:12 PM
Alright, that is another thing on my to do list :)
Would you mind telling me what colour rear window switches you have on your convertible? I am confused, are white or yellow switches the one-touch (5 stages) switches?

bmw4life92
01-08-2016, 06:21 PM
Here is my electric components, partially complete wiring, connectors, yellow base switches, motors and ZKE 4 module from a 98 M3 3.2.

I like johnf's one-touch mod, according to him, his rear vents worked great with the modified AutoLoc modules. thinkin about getting a pair, open them and get to know them, and find out what size resistors need to be put in. Cant be that hard to heat up the solder and replace the resistors inside.
Not sure what to go for yet. Must get to know my wiring harness first, might just miss a K113 relay from it, and mby it will work fine wiring it into my ZVM etc.. hmmmmm

DJ Genius, keep me posted! :) Let me know if you start a DIY or new thread about this.


- - - Updated - - -


I am confused, are white or yellow switches the one-touch (5 stages) switches?


Me to man, I have 2 white base window switches laying around, the switches in my '92 325i have a green base and the switches in my rear vent kit has yellow base. Are one of these one-touch on its own? and the others are one-touch trough a relay or module?? Trying to paint a picture here. :)




Peace!

DJ Genius
01-08-2016, 06:31 PM
Once you have the switches, you can actually feel if they are "tip switches" one touch. Gently press on UP or DOWN side, you will feel and hear a click. Then press a bit harder and you will hear a second click.
Yellow base large contact switches ARE NOT one touch as they are original rear vent switches. However, yellow base with small contacts that you have in your pictures, I believe these are one touch switches.

I am yet to find a cheap rear vent kit. It looked like they are cheaper from BMW dealer. Called them today and they told me this kit has been discontinued. Although, I could still find them in some US online shops. I don't really want to spend 450 USD on a used kit. They were going for 250 USD from a dealer.

bmw4life92
01-08-2016, 06:46 PM
Once you have the switches, you can actually feel if they are "tip switches" one touch. Gently press on UP or DOWN side, you will feel and hear a click. Then press a bit harder and you will hear a second click.
Yellow base large contact switches ARE NOT one touch as they are original rear vent switches. However, yellow base with small contacts that you have in your pictures, I believe these are one touch switches.

I am yet to find a cheap rear vent kit. It looked like they are cheaper from BMW dealer. Called them today and they told me this kit has been discontinued. Although, I could still find them in some US online shops. I don't really want to spend 450 USD on a used kit. They were going for 250 USD from a dealer.

The white base switches I have here are only 2 steps each way.
Check out ebay.de man, its a couple kits on there now, I got mine from there a few months ago. Just cash the used kit, the motors are available new from BMW later, for about $100 a pop. I bet they wont stop making them until the car is 30 years old, the kits yes, they are no longer available, but the components that wear out can still be bought new. :)

MParallel
01-08-2016, 07:31 PM
Well there's only one switch with both one-touch opening and closing, which is the yellow one.

On both my cabs, I took out the two white and single blue switch, and replaced them for yellow ones. Both my cars have the small pin switches.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's a small vid after I coded the module.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BsgtMtusK0




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10eyuX_4Huo

bmw4life92
01-08-2016, 09:22 PM
I just wrote an e-mail to Pelican Parts asking if they could contact their people at BMW, about making more of these harnesses and other things that are no longer available for the BMW E36 enthusiasts. I will send e-mail within the next few days to ECS tuning, Turner Motorsport, Bavarian Auto and dealers I know about in Europe asking them to do the same
If no one demands more, there will be no more, so DJ G and anyone else that needs it, feel free to do the same, the more dealers that contact BMW about this the bigger are the chances that BMW will produce more retrofit harnesses, kits etc.
It wouldnt hurt.

I also ordered one of the harnesses (61129404367) last week from a european BMW dealer called Koed, cuz it didnt say it was not available. But I soon got my money back and an e-mail from them saying that it was "Back Ordered" and he did not know when or if BMW would make more. But I made an order for the harness, so now they know about yet another person that needs it. Demand just went up 1+

johnf
01-09-2016, 02:27 AM
Okay, I kind of get the idea now. So you went with rear vent route, where instead of installing a rear vent relay, you got the WC1000 modules.... Your option sounds very similar to ours, except that you are using aftermarket module and we are thinking of using OEM relay module.
In your scenario you needed 2 of those WC1000 modules - 50 USD.
In our scenario we need only 1 RM IV module, you can get them used for as little as 10 USD.

Please don't get me wrong, I applaud you for being one of the first to retrofit the rear vent windows. But I think our options is a bit cheaper and a bit easier to follow....Well, that answers my question!



My biggest concern is one-touch feature. It will definitely work, but I am concerned about calibrating the windows to their FULLY OPEN and FULLY CLOSED positions....
Do you remember how you trained your windows to those positions? How do your WC1000 modules know when windows are fully opened and fully closed?They sense the motors stalling. As I wrote, I had to modify the modules to accommodate the windows: one of those mods got them to sense a motor stalling. But isn't that something you should be asking about BMW's rear window relay module: how it senses the end of travel? Now that I think about it, the vent window motors may be too different.


Would this WC1000 module work with one-touch sunroof feature?I know a guy who used one on his sunroof, but his could not bite, like ours can, or come to think of it, kill. :(

bmw4life92
01-11-2016, 07:07 AM
Here is my wiring harness, have a look, all bundled up and looks to be in good condition.
Notice only the big yellow rear vent switch connectors has the red wires, and they link up in that black connector and go on.
Are these red the wires for power to the rear vents? They go to K113 relay that supplies the power, And then I wire in WC1000 one-touch modules down stream between the motors and the switch?
Tell me what you think guys, am I on the right track? :)




AutoLoc WC1000 Features :
One Direction Operation (Up AND Down)
Compatible With Any Window System
Works Off Factory Window Switches
Load Sensor
Auto Stop
May Be Used With Any Remote
Works With Alarms!
Microprocessor Controlled
Detailed Instructions
Limited Lifetime Warranty




Johnf, do your modules have the same features as those sold today, microprocessor, load sensor etc , Or do they most likely still need modification? :)

Peace

johnf
01-11-2016, 12:25 PM
Here is my wiring harness, have a look, all bundled up and looks to be in good condition....Those look not quite finished to me. The harnesses BMW sold with the electric vent window retrofitting kit were wrapped with black tape and bundled just like the existing harnesses you see in the car. I would say you have a little craft project before you.


AutoLoc WC1000 Features
.
.
.

Johnf, do your modules have the same features as those sold today, microprocessor, load sensor etc...?Are you serious? Of course not – that is just advertising! :)

That is pretty much the same advertising I remember from when I bought my modules, so it will not surprise me if the modules have also stayed the same. The pictures of the units for sale look unchanged.

DJ Genius
01-11-2016, 12:33 PM
Alright. So here it goes. Here is my wiring pinouts:


K114 Comfort Relay
Pin2 RED/BROWN -> Pin28 (X13-BLACK)
Pin4 BLACK/GREEN -> Pin23 (X14-NATURAL)
Pin6 RED -> Pin6 (X10016) F13 POWER
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K113 Hinged Window Relay
Pin2 VIOLET/BROWN -> Pin4 (X9317) S182 LEFT VENT SWITCH
Pin4 VIOLET/BLUE -> Pin1 (X13126) M104 RIGHT VENT MOTOR
Pin5 VIOLET/GREEN -> Pin2 (X13126) M103 LEFT VENT MOTOR
Pin7 BLACK/RED -> X1894 (FRONT CENTER) ZKE CONTROL UNIT
Pin8 RED/BROWN -> X1167 (UNDER ST.) K114 COMFORT RELAY
Pin9 VIOLET/YELLOW -> Pin4 (X9320) S183 RIGHT VENT SWITCH
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S182 Left Vent Switch
Pin1 BROWN -> X498 (UNDER DR. SEAT) GROUND
Pin3 WHITE -> Pin1 (X13125) M103 LEFT VENT MOTOR
Pin4 VIOLET/BROWN -> Pin2 (X13283) K113 HINGED WINDOW RELAY
Pin5 RED/BROWN -> X1167 (UNDER ST.) K114 COMFORT RELAY
Pin6 GREY/RED -> X13129 (FRONT CENTER) ILLUMINATION
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S183 Right Vent Switch
Pin1 BROWN -> X498 (UNDER DR. SEAT) GROUND
Pin3 BLACK/BLUE -> Pin2 (X13126) M104 RIGHT VENT MOTOR
Pin4 VIOLET/YELLOW -> Pin9 (X13283) K113 HINGED WINDOW RELAY
Pin5 RED/BROWN -> X1167 (UNDER ST.) K114 COMFORT RELAY
Pin6 GREY/RED -> X13129 (FRONT CENTER) ILLUMINATION
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M103 LEFT VENT MOTOR
Pin1 WHITE -> Pin3 (X9317) S182 LEFT WINDOW SWITCH
Pin2 VIOLET/GREEN -> Pin5 (X13283) K113 HINGED WINDOW RELAY
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M104 RIGHT VENT MOTOR
Pin1 VIOLET/BLUE -> Pin4 (X13283) K113 HINGED WINDOW RELAY
Pin2 BLACK/BLUE -> Pin3 (X9320) S183 RIGHT WINDOW SWITCH


Where you see X with a number and not in the bracket "()" it means it's a "splitter", the location of this "splitter" is in the brackets. For example:


S182 Left Vent Switch
Pin1 BROWN -> X498 (UNDER DR. SEAT) GROUND
It means Pin1 of Left Vent Switch (that has it's own code S182) is connected by BROWN wire into X498 "splitter" that is located under the driver's seat for GROUND.

Where you see X with a number and in the bracket's "()" it means it is a code name for that particular connector, for example:


S182 Left Vent Switch
Pin3 WHITE -> Pin1 (X13125) M103 LEFT VENT MOTOR
Pin3 of Left Vent Switch (that has it's own code S182) is connected by WHITE wire into Pin1 of X13125 connector that plugs into M103 Left Vent Motor.

I hope these are easy to follow.
I want to remind you, this pinout is an OEM way to wire in the coupe rear vents. So far we have 3 ways of wiring rear vents:
1. OEM as coupe rear vents (no one-touch feature) - works, has been wired by many people,
2. OEM as sedan/cabrio rear windows (with one touch feature) - still needs to be fully explored and tested,
3. aftermarker using WC1000 (with one touch feature) - has been wired by some people with some modifications to WC1000.

There is so much information here, I think I shall do a DIY, since I haven't done any in awhile :) I shall see if I succeed wiring them as per option 2 - as a sedan/cabrio rear windows. If I succeed, than I shall have something to share with the BMW community.

bmw4life92
01-12-2016, 01:49 PM
Those look not quite finished to me. The harnesses BMW sold with the electric vent window retrofitting kit were wrapped with black tape and bundled just like the existing harnesses you see in the car. I would say you have a little craft project before you.

It was so badley mixed and tangled up so I couldnt see what went where, So i removed what was left of this black cloth like tape, and seperated the wires.


I will get you some pictures of the insides of the modules when I get them :)

johnf
01-12-2016, 02:19 PM
It was so badly mixed and tangled up so I couldn't see what went where, So i removed what was left of this black cloth like tape, and separated the wires....Very good. I find the old tape leaves behind a bit of a mess. I use Stoddard solvent (white spirits / mineral spirits) to remove the sticky residue.

bmw4life92
01-20-2016, 09:01 AM
Hey guys,
I got a hold of a 1995 M3 body wiring harness, who had rear vents to, I have now gotten the vent wiring out of the main harness, to try and understand how it works, and see if I can make some more basic harnesses for rear vents.

I've marked them as best I could with what I had atm, I'm abit unsure about a few of the wires going to which or what fuse etc, It was a pain in the ass to get the pins out of the fusebox so I lost track of that . damn

What was the big difference in the retrofit wiring harnesses for ZVM models and ZKE4 models? If I could craft some new ones for each, that be awesome.
Check out the pics, Is this harness with mint green relay the "Supplementary Wiring Harness"?

I'm gonna get the wires sorted and tape it back in bundle when I know it better.


Peace,

DJ Genius
01-20-2016, 09:31 AM
The green relay is K114 COMFORT RELAY.
The blue relay is K113 HINGED WINDOW RELAY.
Now you can look at the diagram and follow colour coded wires to their locations. You can also look at my pinout sheet and see where they are supposed to connect to.

bmw4life92
01-20-2016, 10:35 AM
Btw, will a body wiring harness from a 94+ car with ZKE 4 fit into my 325i M50? As long as its coupe, it will fit?
Thinkin about upgrading from old harness with ZVM to newer wiring harness with ZKE 4 etc,. Is this possible?

DJ Genius
01-20-2016, 12:21 PM
Btw, will a body wiring harness from a 94+ car with ZKE 4 fit into my 325i M50? As long as its coupe, it will fit?
Thinkin about upgrading from old harness with ZVM to newer wiring harness with ZKE 4 etc,. Is this possible?
I would avoid that. ZVM module has only 2 harness plugs, ZKE IV has 4-5 of them. You would need to rewire every single wire into new ZKE IV module as some of them are in different plug and different pinout location.
If I were you, I would simply add ZKE IV module on top of what you have. Supply power to ZKE module and wire in the electric vents harness. So you ZVM would work as before and an added ZKE IV would control only the vents.

bmw4life92
01-20-2016, 12:32 PM
I would avoid that. ZVM module has only 2 harness plugs, ZKE IV has 4-5 of them. You would need to rewire every single wire into new ZKE IV module as some of them are in different plug and different pinout location.
If I were you, I would simply add ZKE IV module on top of what you have. Supply power to ZKE module and wire in the electric vents harness. So you ZVM would work as before and an added ZKE IV would control only the vents.

This wil work? All other wires to the ZKE 4 I dont need to wire in? only the power and ground wires at the big black connector and pin 18 and 19 at the green one? Every thing else can be cut? :D Cuz this I can do.

MParallel
01-20-2016, 02:41 PM
What was the big difference in the retrofit wiring harnesses for ZVM models and ZKE4 models? If I could craft some new ones for each, that be awesome.

Non. As I stated before, the retrofit kit was only available from 94 for zke equiped cars.

DJ Genius
01-20-2016, 06:57 PM
Here is what you need to connect to ZKE IV module if you are planning just and ADD-ON feature to pre-existing ZVM module:


X13252 BLACK 15 Pins
Pin10 RED/GREEN/YELLOW -> Pin10 (X10018) F35 POWER (RED/BLUE/YELLOW for ZVM models)
Pin15 BROWN -> X495 (BELOW THE MODULE) GROUND


X13254 GREEN 26 Pins
Pin18 BLACK/RED -> X1894 (FRONT CENTER) K113 HINGED WINDOW RELAY (Pin7)
Pin19 BLACK/GREEN -> X1895 (FRONT CENTER) K114 COMFORT RELAY (Pin4)

"Splitters/Junctions" X1894 and X1895 most likely will not exist on our cars, so you can either create your own splitter (as per diagrams it shares it with sunroof) or if you have no sunroof then you can simply wire them straight into the relays:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTI0M1gxNjAw/z/knMAAOxy3cJTf0xI/$_35.JPG

As for power and ground of the module, I am not 100% sure it will work, so please test it first. Module has over 7 power wires coming in from the fuse box for different types of circuit. And it also have multiple grounds for extra security, so circuits are isolated from each other. Easiest way to get power is tapping into Pin2 of X13013 connector of Central Locking Module on ZVM models.

bmw4life92
01-21-2016, 09:36 PM
Thank you DJ Genius for the Pin-out information :D
All i need to do is wire power to ZKE4 from my ZVM and ground it. Then connect the GREEN/BLACK wire (from green ZKE4 connector) to my existing comfort relay Pin4 and the RED/BLUE wire from the "splitter" to Pin 2? Unless my 92' Coupe "has a spare, wired circuit from the comfort relay with a 5A fuse and an assigned connector pin" -Like Johnf put it at the start of the thread, like seen in the diagram earlier in the thread "X13 Pin 28 NOT USED"
We will see if mine is like this or not. If I have the open Pin 28 in my X13, then I just put the RED/BLACK wire from the vent harness splitter into the open Pin 28?(if it is connected to the comfort relay ofc)

It is like -15 to -20 celsius outside these days, Have not bothered to go outside and check my Comfort Relay or X13 yet x) Will do it soon.

Getting the WC1000 one-touch modules and modding them! Hopefully before the install of the vents, so I can have stall detection cut-off and one-touch from day 1.

Many many thanks guys!

Peace!
-Håkon

bmw4life92
01-24-2016, 08:24 PM
Here is a picture of the comfort relay in my 92', it has 4 wires connected, then there is one pin left un-used?

The mint green relay is a 4 pin multi-purpose relay, like the orange bosch relay that came in this wiring harness originally.

So the small harness I got is the power supply wiring harness: 61129404366
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-bmw-parts/wiring-set-no-longer-available/61129404366/

DJ Genius
01-25-2016, 06:59 AM
Yes, it is a power supply and comfort wiring. It supplies the power to your vent window switches and Hinged Window Relay. And it is turned on by your ZVM/ZKE module or sunroof control unit.
Since you have your own Comfort Relay I would use the existing one for vent windows. Try finding the splitter/junction coming from that relay, that's where you can tap your switches and Hinged Window Relay.
I was a bit surprised to see the GREEN relay in the wiring you got from M3. The Comfort Relay in your car, the BLUE one, that is the Comfort Relay I am familiar with. As far as I am aware there were 2 types of Comfort Relays:
93-95 older 61358364690:
http://www.autopartsapi.com/eEuroparts.com/images/parts/lg_99509986-562c-457a-80da-3530c9d699df.jpg

And 96-99 newer 61358366387:
http://ru.bavariancar.lv/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=135060&stc=1&d=1402384068

Somebody must have replaced the relay in your wiring that you got from M3. You should have that smaller older style relay in there. But it looks like you have a proper original relay in your car, which is good. So use that instead.
Pin2 and Pin5 are the output pins from the Comfort Relay.
Pin5 should go to Sunroof.
Pin2 should go to Power Windows.

The only wire in your relay I can see as the OUTPUT is huge RED wire (according to diagrams it should be RED/VIOLET). I guess that wire will got back to fuse box or is fused somewhere along the way, so you can use that wire (after it's been fused) for the power or you can tap into Pin5 of Comfort Relay for Sunroof (if it's not used) and get the power from there, but I would recommend using a 5A fuse, that you already have from your M3 wiring, so it works as a separate fuse just for rear vents.

bmw4life92
01-25-2016, 03:34 PM
I thought the ZKE4 was the comfort relay after 95?
The 96+ relay you posted picture of, is the K113 Hinged Window Relay I have here. Its the same part number, some places the result of the part number is K78 comfort relay, and other places as the K113 Hinged window relay.

I have power sunroof, So I should tap into either the thick RED/YELLOW wire or the VIOLET/YELLOW from my comfort relay?(The one that powers the sunroof)

Will it be possible to splice the BLACK/RED wire comming from K113 to my ZVM or something? So I wont have to retrofit the ZKE4? Getting K113 signal power from somewhere else than ZKE4?
Or should I just go ahead and wire in the ZKE4 for the vents?

I saw the electric rear vents retrofit thread of zed///M, he did wire it up to a 1992 coupe 10 years ago, (without ZKE4?) But explained nothing on how to do it,, I wrote to him, but he has not been online for a month now.


It's not so cold out here now, so I will take of the footrest and check my X13 PIN 28 within the next few days.

DJ Genius
01-25-2016, 04:11 PM
Yes, it is the same part number for Comfort Relay and Hinged Window Relay after +96.

No, you cannot use VIOLET/YELLOW wire for POWER, that is only a signal coming from ZVM module.
You need to use the thicker RED/YELLOW wire. But you need to do this safely, so fuse is necessary. What is the pin number of the relay, that you said was unused? Can you pull out the Comfort Relay and check which pin is not used?
ZKE IV will supply "Convenience Locking" through it's X13254 Pin18. By looking at the Hinged Window Relay diagram I can see this little wire will ACTIVATE the Hinged Window Relay and "unlock" both vent window motors. I believe it works very similar to your front door windows. Once you have ignition on, you can lower and raise the front windows. 5min. after the ignition is switched off you may no longer do this, but once you open the door you can again lower and raise the window. This feature is supplied by ZKE IV module. So if you do not connect that little wire, your Hinged Window Relay will always be "locked" and your vent window motors won't work.

I believe you may right by skipping the ZKE IV module and getting that "unlock" signal from the same wire as Comfort Relay does from your ZVM module.
All you need is to "activate" the Hinged Window Relay, so you should be able to do this without ZKE IV module since you already have and older style ZVM module. I think if you connect that wire to the same pin as your front windows, you should be alright. You rear vents would be "unlocked" at the same time as your front windows.
Front windows are "unlocked" by ZVM module X13012 Pin9 VIOLET/YELLOW. This is exactly the same wire that unlocks the Comfort Relay. On older +96 cars Comfort Relay is "unlocked" by Pin19 and Hinged Window Relay is "unlocked" by Pin18 of X13254 connector. Why two separate pins are used I don't know.

Try connecting to that VIOLET/YELLOW wire and see if the Hinged Window Relay clicks ("activates").

Oh yeah, and I believe ZVM/ZKE does not SEND/PUSH the signal to relays, it rather PULLS down the current and allows electricity to go through relay's coil hence closing the relay latch and allowing the high power electricity to go the connected components (switches in our case). Just to be very exact :)

bmw4life92
01-25-2016, 05:23 PM
I'll get in there tomorrow, checking the relay and see if I can get the footrest off, to see if there is a fused power source in my X13 :)

Thanks for the detailed description. Its the "activate" part I didnt understand before, the power to vent motors,K113 and switches I just gotta hook up to a power source with a fuse between. :) Is this 5A fuse correct or do I have to use a bigger fuse for the vent system?

DJ Genius
01-25-2016, 06:26 PM
5A fuse is originally used in rear vent system. There is only 2 small motors and they are not drawing a lot of current, hence the fuse has to be small.
It won't be easy to get to X13, you may need to remove the floor carpet.

bmw4life92
01-25-2016, 08:49 PM
5A fuse is originally used in rear vent system. There is only 2 small motors and they are not drawing a lot of current, hence the fuse has to be small.
It won't be easy to get to X13, you may need to remove the floor carpet.

Nice, I wont rly need to wire into X13, only for a OEM like install, if the open pin from 5A fuse is there already, hmm mby I'll do it like that. I'll get a fuse holder tomorrow, insert my 5A fuse, and connect it to the splitter, ready to tap into sunroof power wire from comfort relay. So I can test it one of these days.

Does it matter where I ground the vent switches? Can they just be spliced into the (-)ground for cigarette lighter, or the front window switches or something?

bmw4life92
02-03-2016, 06:08 AM
Its Pin 2 on my comfort relay that is open. Trying to insert a "pin" into the relay socket,,
I cant seem to get these "pins" to go all the way into the relay socket and hook up. Do I need new ones? I tried recycling some old ones from the M3 harness.

Thanks,

johnf
02-03-2016, 10:28 AM
Its Pin 2 on my comfort relay that is open. Trying to insert a "pin" into the relay socket,,
I cant seem to get these "pins" to go all the way into the relay socket and hook up....You first need to remove or raise the plastic piece that is between the cubic base and the relay, that cradles the relay. The cradle stops a contact from coming out of the base if the metal barbs on the contact fail. It also stops a new contact from going in.

bmw4life92
02-03-2016, 04:05 PM
You first need to remove or raise the plastic piece that is between the cubic base and the relay, that cradles the relay. The cradle stops a contact from coming out of the base if the metal barbs on the contact fail. It also stops a new contact from going in.

Thanks man! I didnt get it at first so I tried splicing the fused vent circuit to the sunroof power wire+ the BLACK/RED "activation" wire from K113 to the VIOLET/YELLOW activation wire on comfort relay and grounded switches, seems as if the comfort relay died when trying to send power to the vents thru sunroof wire, a loud wierd noice occured, like a switch was turned back and forth a million times a second kinda,, if you understand what I mean, a bad electrical sound from relay,, and now the sunroof is unresponsive.

Is this a blown comfort relay, should I be looking for a replacement? or is it a fuse somewhere? I dont know.

Had I just gotten this pin into Pin2 slot before doing this splicing, it migh have worked.

DJ Genius
02-03-2016, 04:18 PM
I just had another look at your pictures. Weirdly you have a big RED/YELLOW wire coming out as an OUTPUT of your Comfort Relay. Can you see where it goes?

bmw4life92
02-03-2016, 04:48 PM
I just had another look at your pictures. Weirdly you have a big RED/YELLOW wire coming out as an OUTPUT of your Comfort Relay. Can you see where it goes?

Not quite, it goes down towards the footrest, to X13 or X14 mby?

DJ Genius
02-03-2016, 04:52 PM
The most basic relays usually have a power, ground and a signal wire. Power and ground wires could be always connected, but the relay's latch is "OFF", hence the current is not flowing through the relay. By supplying a little bit of power through signal wire you make the latch "close" and turn the relay "ON", now the current is flowing through relay.
Most popular 4-pin generic relays usually have separate output pins. So you supply power to power pin (30), ground to ground pin (86) - nothing happens until you give a signal through the signal pin (85) and turn the relay on, then the power travels through separate output pin (87).
5-pin relays have 2 output pins 87 and 87a. When the relay is "OFF", the latch inside the relay is connected to to pin 87a, therefore the current flows through relay to the output pin 87a. When there is a signal and relay is switched "ON", the latch inside the relay is connected to pin 87 and current flows through it. With 5-pin relays there is no really ON or OFF states anymore, it's one active output or the other, relay is never OFF really.

Since there is on unused pin in Comfort Relay, it does look like standard 5-pin relay. However, Hinged Window Relay looks like 6-pin relay and is more sophisticated.
That BLACK/RED wire acts more like a "ground" activation. It is like if you supply power (+) to the bulb, the bulb will not work until you connect it to the ground. So it is the same with Hinged Window relay. BLACK/RED wire acts as a ground and pulls the current, RED/BROWN is a power wire. You need to supply this relay with power through RED/BROWN wire not BLACK/RED.

bmw4life92
02-03-2016, 07:18 PM
Like the comfort relay I have originaly, wich I might have fried, these relays are also 5 pin, and they have 87 and 87 or 87b, (double relays/2 output pins),, they are way cheaper than the original comfort relay.

The blue one in the pic is the new version/ part number, of the one I have, I think its the same internally, the pin outs look the same.

So i'm wondering if these would do the same. I will try to get a cheap used comfort relay from someone local ofc.

BTW, Genius, Should I just ground the BLACK/RED "signalwire" from K113? Is that what you meant?

Peace,

mgoods50
02-03-2016, 09:39 PM
You guys are awesome for fitting this mod. Is one of my favorites; I always wanted this one but gave up sourcing parts.

DJ Genius
02-04-2016, 09:11 AM
Like the comfort relay I have originaly, wich I might have fried, these relays are also 5 pin, and they have 87 and 87 or 87b, (double relays/2 output pins),, they are way cheaper than the original comfort relay.


Yes, the first two are almost identical. The newer blue one is different internally as it has a micro transistor that helps to divert high power that's been reduced by a resistor to the latching mechanism. But in the end, it does exactly the same - get power and ground, a signal to latch the relay and 2 outputs that are linked. So in your case, the pin 5 was already used, so all you need to do is tap into pin2 and you will get the same result.
Like I said to you in your PM, you can check if pin 5 and pin 2 are really link on relay by using a multimeter's continuity test.

bmw4life92
02-04-2016, 12:07 PM
It's starting to look like something now,, got it taped up and layed out almost like it will be in the car.

The other power harness is my backup for retrofitting the ZKE 4 for the vents, if that turns out to be the only way.


Gonna get a multimeter and another comfort relay, then when/if I get the motor turning from pressing switch, the vent system will be installed.

Thanks for all the help guys :D

bmw4life92
02-15-2016, 09:56 AM
I got the replacement comfort relay (the old type - same as I had) and still sunroof is dead and no power comes from Pin 2 of the relay.

I left the BLACK/RED wire from K113 unconnected and got power from the cigarette lighter just to test, and the motors turned when pressing the switch :D My only issue now is getting the "comfort" power to work, so the vents are locked and unlocked with the comfort relay.
I get no "click" from the comfort relay when turning the ignition on. Is there a fuse I should check? Or mby the ZVM is toast?

DJ Genius
02-15-2016, 01:57 PM
Check your fuses.

bmw4life92
02-23-2016, 12:20 PM
So now my sunroof works again and there is power to my vents coming out of comfort relay Pin2.
But it seems as if the comfort relay is activated all the time now. Before turning on ignition the sunroof is operational.
Probably the activating part at the ZVM end that got toasted back when splicing, and now comfort relay is constantly unlocked.

Have gotten my center armrest and console out, gonna get some holes cut for switches, and lay the wiring harness very soon. Just miss some bolts and nuts to mount the motors.
When everything is installed, i'll lay wires to fusebox and back to use the original "Rear Vent" Fuse 13.

I'll be back with pictures as I go along.

DJ Genius
02-23-2016, 01:10 PM
Glad to hear that.
Comfort relay stays active for another 5min. or so after the ignition is off. So I think it works as it should. What did the guys do to fix the sunroof? Was it a fuse?

Another good news is I actually won the German eBay auction for electric rear vents. The ones you showed me, Håkon. A big thank you to you. I got it for 285 EUR (315 USD). Amazing how prices keep rising for these kits as BMW no longer supplies them.

bmw4life92
02-23-2016, 04:03 PM
Glad to hear that.
Comfort relay stays active for another 5min. or so after the ignition is off. So I think it works as it should. What did the guys do to fix the sunroof? Was it a fuse?

Another good news is I actually won the German eBay auction for electric rear vents. The ones you showed me, Håkon. A big thank you to you. I got it for 285 EUR (315 USD). Amazing how prices keep rising for these kits as BMW no longer supplies them.


Thats the thing, the mechanic didnt do anyhting, he didnt have time to check the sunroof etc then and there cuz I had so many other important things to do to the car, it just came back xD I went out to the car in the morning, and unlocked the door, got in and pressed the sunroof button and it opened before i put key into igniton. I was suprised, it was dead after the wrong splicing that time. no power from Pin 2 either. But all of a sudden it was back.

Mby the activation wire to comfort relay from ZVM messed up the on and off switch/source in ZVM when spliced with the BLACK/RED wire from K113. And now it is unlocked all the time.

Opening the trunk , locked the trunk and passanger door. The car was inside the shop for 2,5 days and I imagine if there was moist in the broken trunk wiring it would act like this, but after it dried, opening the trunk was no problem, it didnt lock the door etc. But when I got it back and it got wet again, the trunk would lock itself and the passanger door..

But why power would just come back to the comfort relay, I dont know.

I'm glad to hear that you won the auction! Cheers :D BMW made sure E36 coupe with electric rear vents would be rare, when they stopped selling the retrofit wiring harnesses. I will make a few copies of the wiring when I have time and material, just for fun :)
Did your kit come with bolts n nuts to mount motors?
Electric rear vents will also raise the value and rareness of the car ;D


Peace

johnf
02-26-2016, 02:27 PM
I got my hands on a ZVM module, Version 2, and took it apart. BMW made allowances for shorting its Komfort output (X13012 pin 9) to 12V, so in theory, tying the output to 12V through a rear vent window comfort-closing relay should not have burnt out the output. The output also has some overvoltage protection, but I have not worked out if can manage the back-EMF from a misapplied, vent window relay.

While both the ZVM and ZKE may be appear bullet proof under normal use and against typical faults, they may not be if you mod the car in ways their designers did not anticipate. Somehow, for example, a number of Z3 folk have burned out their ZKEs while retrofitting footwell lights. I believe I have found the IC that drives the ramped interior lighting, and on paper at least, the IC should make that hard to do.

bmw4life92
02-28-2016, 12:10 PM
I dont know, the ZVM seems to be working normaly in other places, locking etc , while driving the other day, the sunroof didnt work during driving, but when I stood still and took the key out it worked.
Oh, and there is no illumination in the front window switches or the sunroof switch. Corroded connections under carped mby?
Have not checked the bulbs, but the lights above the sun visors are also dead.

I will probably just have the car looked at the nearest BMW shop, have them diagnose etc, its abit more costly to have them do it, but they have always figured out small wierd faults for me in the past.


Cut bigger holes in my console for the switches this morning, using a dremel. It turned out nice, good fit for the switch frames.
See picture below.

Measured and masked around the area wich would be removed and started cutting with a thin rotating cuting disc.
Rounded the corners and smoothed everything off with a small sandpaper "bit until the frames fit.

Picked up some Tesa clotch tape at a local Würth shop the other day, gonna get the harness wrapped up with this before install.
Not just for the original finish, but it is supposed to prevent wires vibrating etc.
Will run the wires for the motors trough the armrest base, (there is a small hole in it at the back where the rear bolt goes into the chassi) and under the carpet, coming up and going to each side under the rear seat.

Btw, picked up some bolts for mounting the motors the other day, M6x10 and M6x12+ washers and locking nuts, will get some M6x16 also, incase I need longer than 12mm bolts.

Deleted my first reply by mistake on my "smart"-phone.

bmw4life92
02-29-2016, 10:07 AM
Just finished wrapping my wiring harness with Tesa tape, now its ready to go into the car! :)
Will buy the last bolts tomorrow, M6x16.

Have never taken of the side panels/door cards in the back of coupe before, is it just clips? How do I proceed?

Thanks,

bmw4life92
03-17-2016, 05:17 PM
Finished the install today. Finally! :D

Clip of the right vent in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjzSgWep8Tk

You can clearly see when the hinge reaches its max open and closed position, so for now I'll keep an eye on them while opening/closing, and see if I am able to get them one-touch and "smart" with moded WC1000's like johnf's system later.

So there it is, for early models with a comfort relay, follow the rear vent pin outs supplied by DJ Genius earlier in the thread. And leave Pin 7 of K113 relay open. Get power from Comfort relay Pin 2.


Something is up with my ZVM or there is some corrosion somewhere, cuz power for the sunroof and vents (both from comfort relay) comes and goes. Gonna take it to BMW and get the issue taken care of soon.



Thanks for all the help everyone! :D

DJ Genius
03-17-2016, 06:06 PM
Glad to hear you managed to wire it up and finish it.
I shall post here when I do mine and if I find a way to wire them with a one-touch feature OEM style :)

johnf
03-18-2016, 05:31 AM
Good job.

I expect to order a spare Autoloc WC1000 module over the next couple months, to see if it has changed, then modify it to control an electric rear vent window. I will take pictures this time.

bmw4life92
03-18-2016, 11:54 AM
Great! :D

Thank you John!

bmw4life92
03-22-2016, 04:57 PM
For easy entering & tightening of vent motors nuts.
Use some tape on wrench to hold the nut when inserting and entering bolts.

johnf
06-03-2016, 04:51 PM
I expect to order a spare Autoloc WC1000 module over the next couple months, to see if it has changed, then modify it to control an electric rear vent window....The WC1000 module I received looks unchanged other than substituting some (Chinese?) capacitors and relays I can not find with Google.

bmw4life92
06-04-2016, 05:22 AM
Okai, still needs modding? :)
I have not had enough money to get the one touch module yet.
What kind of size resistors should I get btw?

johnf
06-04-2016, 12:20 PM
Okai, still needs modding?...Yes, they do. I will consult my notes as to the resistor values, or if necessary, read them off a modified module.

Implus92
08-26-2016, 07:18 AM
Can i ask how this went in your bmw e36 1992? im thinking ZKM or ZKE module wise.
Im the Proud owner of a 1992 5/5 E36 coupe, do i need to get another ZK module or will mine thats preinstalled be fine?
I have read this thread a couple of times but im not quite sure i follow 100 %
And about the harness my set of rear vent the wires were cut off so i need to create the harness anyone who can help of have made one who is selling it?

bmw4life92
09-03-2016, 12:57 PM
You dont need to add a ZKE4 module, Just get a blue K113 Hinged Window Relay and some rear vent switches, then follow the pin-out info posted on Page 3 by Genius, skip the black/red wire going to ZKE and you have a power vent wiring harness for your pre-1994 E36.
I got power from the open pin on my comfort relay.
There is a feature on 1994+ cars with ZKE4, holding lock button on fob or holding Key in full lock position in the door will close all open windows and sunroof. But this whole feature is not in the older ZVM module we have.

I have all the BMW pins & connectors to make a new wiring harness just for fun, but I have not gotten around to wiring it up during this summer. It is fairly easy once you can read the pin-outs.

Fix.a.ZX
09-19-2018, 11:45 PM
Anyone have power vent system components for sale?

i am trying to make this system more accessible to everyone. i found the motors from the original manufacturer widely available still, very cheap. Pm for more details. i need the power vent window wiring and the comfort relay wiring to make schematics.

MParallel
09-20-2018, 05:31 PM
Anyone have power vent system components for sale?

i am trying to make this system more accessible to everyone. i found the motors from the original manufacturer widely available still, very cheap. Pm for more details. i need the power vent window wiring and the comfort relay wiring to make schematics.


You can check the BMW E36 ETM for the exact wiring schematics.

Fix.a.ZX
09-20-2018, 05:41 PM
Does that tell you length and gage? Not last time I checked.

MParallel
09-20-2018, 05:57 PM
Does that tell you length and gage? Not last time I checked.

No not the length ha. Gauge, yes.

Fix.a.ZX
09-20-2018, 06:03 PM
Besides I need the harnesses for my use anyways.

Fireball1991
11-22-2018, 11:09 AM
hi there!

i'll like to upgrade my car with the rear windows to lift it electric, first of all, i've an E36 SEDAN from '97 so it's got an ZKE IV module. So.... now, my job is only get around follow the assemby of harnesses like the previous comments, or i have to modify somethings on my car?

can i follow these methods or i'm absolutly wrong?

thanks a lot!640971640972640973

johnf
11-22-2018, 11:19 AM
I might start a new thread. This one is about swinging rear windows, which is quite different than lifting them. For example, to get a sedan to safely comfort close its rear windows, you might want to wire and code the ZKE as if it is raising and lower the windows in a cabrio. :dunno

Fireball1991
11-22-2018, 11:24 AM
Okay, anyway, can you show me a schematic pic about this harness? With pinouts. Just to know where could I start it to wire up my harness. Thanks a lot!

johnf
11-22-2018, 11:34 AM
You might search for something like "bmw etm gb".

Section 5133.0 of the BMW wiring diagrams covers the different power windows in the sedan, coupe and cabrio.

Fireball1991
11-22-2018, 11:48 AM
Thanks, I see it, and the numbers of the lines next to connection corner are the pin numbers?

johnf
11-23-2018, 05:09 AM
Thanks, I see it, and the numbers of the lines next to connection corner are the pin numbers?That is right. You should see the same numbers on the plastic connector shells the contacts slide into. If you have a pair of older eyes, you may need a light and a little magnification to make them out. Sections 7000.0–8500.0 contain diagrams to help find the connectors and confirm the physical pin numbering. I cross check pin numbers in various ways to avoid surprises.

Fireball1991
11-23-2018, 12:42 PM
Thanks a lot I found it but it's still foggy... so I can't figure out which cables where to come and where to goes... so I actually looking for a scheme like this pic, or a pin outs table like the another one pic. PLS somebody help me!641002641003

BLAKE AuST
08-31-2019, 08:00 AM
old thread i know. I have a 1994 m3 euro, i have everything except the "Hinged Window Relay" this part is NLA, is there another i can use? do i even need it?

Fireball1991
08-31-2019, 10:16 AM
Its depending on what kind of car do you have because mine is sedan, so my car electronics little bit different from the other ones (coupe, compact etc.) so finally i wired it up, and i succes to bring it to life for me, but i had to replace my zke module, ind install the RMIV modul too. so here's my help:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7-Yy7pCyTgXU3B6TXVFeTFCb3M/view

Power windows circuit for rear section is ELE-235, but it's come from ELE-234 on page 717 and 718.

so i made my own cable harness, and i put it into my car and BUMMMM its working now :)

so i'm happy now, i hope you will too ;)

- - - Updated - - -

But here's the other one advanced question.

How can i wire up the Check Control Modul? :D

anybody has any help for it? circuit, pin outs table etc.?

Thanks a lot guys!

MParallel
09-01-2019, 08:14 AM
Its depending on what kind of car do you have because mine is sedan, so my car electronics little bit different from the other ones (coupe, compact etc.) so finally i wired it up, and i succes to bring it to life for me, but i had to replace my zke module, ind install the RMIV modul too. so here's my help:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7-Yy7pCyTgXU3B6TXVFeTFCb3M/view

Power windows circuit for rear section is ELE-235, but it's come from ELE-234 on page 717 and 718.

so i made my own cable harness, and i put it into my car and BUMMMM its working now :)

so i'm happy now, i hope you will too ;)

- - - Updated - - -

But here's the other one advanced question.

How can i wire up the Check Control Modul? :D

anybody has any help for it? circuit, pin outs table etc.?

Thanks a lot guys!

If your E36 as a ZKE, it can only be the ZKE 4. So you never need to replace it. Just recode.

Fireball1991
09-01-2019, 08:51 AM
I had to replace it because my old one has 4 connector and the New one has 5. My old was ZKE 4 LOW, and the New one is ZKE 4 HIGH. i didnt code anything. I just installed them and here we go... Its workin.

Squeak007
04-18-2020, 11:49 PM
what size wire should I be using for the harness?
Thanks

runnr548
06-07-2021, 02:48 PM
Another old thread... I wonder about power vents on a ti....